Microsoft Worried OEM 'Craplets' Will Harm Vista

elsilver writes "An article at the CBC indicates that Microsoft is worried that the assorted crap most OEM companies load onto a new machine may affect users' opinion of Vista. An unnamed executive is concerned that the user will conclude the instability of the non-MS-certified applications is Vista's fault. Is this a serious concern, or is MS trying to bully OEMs into only including Vista-certified apps? As for the OEMs, one "removed older DVD-writing software they found was incompatible and replaced it with Vista's own software." — do they get points for realizing it was both buggy AND redundant?"

My guess

[Anonymous Coward]

My guess: the era of pre-loading software and packing computers with shit as an "added bonus" is over. Most people know the things they like and they have internet access to download them. This was not true 10 years ago -- you wanted burning software with your cd burner, media player software for your camera, etc. But now these apps just mess everything up.

A company like apple, which monopolises the whole process to fit with their brand, is in a better position here. I mean, from a marketing perspective, all it takes is one lousy OEM company to install buggy shit on their computers and you can ruin the Vista brand.

Good!

[HugePedlar]

I'm sick of buying laptops, particularly for work, which come with bundles of shit preinstalled. It enrages me more when they won't even provide a proper Windows install CD so I can wipe and clean-install. Anything that spells the end of this policy is welcome.

Understandable

[Saxmachine]

Having gone through several prefab Windows boxes in my time (Gateway, Dell, Sony mostly), it seems to me that the volume of crap applications that come pre-loaded and all of which run at startup time has increased dramatically, to the point that the first thing I have to do with any new brand-name PC is either uninstall all the bloat one-by-one or else wipe the drive and start from scratch with a fresh OS install. For a desktop PC, I can understand everyone telling me "build your own, then it will only have what you want on it." Fair enough. But what about portables? Is there a good laptop manufacturer who will sell me a "blank slate" laptop? Ordinarily, I would expect this sort of performance-hindering bloat to reflect badly on the manufacturer. I think MS is right to be worried that the PC makers might jump at the chance to shift the blame onto the new OS, rightly or wrongly.

Make Crap Optional

[FrostyCoolSlug]

Simply put, OEM distributors should provide the software on CDs as optional installs. Every time someone I've known has bought a new PC, they have asked me to 'clean it up', because 90% of the shit which gets pre-loaded isn't wanted.

By providing the original installation media without installing it, Microsoft is happy that the software doesn't come pre-loaded, the end user is happy that they don't have to remove stuff once they buy their computer, and the OEM distributor should be happy because they will get more customers from it. Everyone is happy, so why is it so difficult?

Yes

[The MAZZTer]

My computer came with XP and a preinstalled keyboard shortcut program. This program had the nasty side effect of crashing ANY fullscreen app that tried to launch, with the single exception of Jedi Outcast.

At the time, none of these other games I had were designed with XP in mind, so I immediately assumed that XP's compatibility was abysmal and I was NOT happy. Fortunately I was able to correct the REAL problem soon enough.

I concur

[spineboy]

A logical extension of Microsofts argument would be that NO outside software can be trusted, unless you pay the special fee to MSoft so that it's "certified", otherwise they'll refuse to take the blame for anything. That just reaffirms my belief in the parent posts argument, that it's the OSs fault.

Re:It IS Vista's fault

[madcow_bg]

No, but the stupid users (and the not-so-stupid) will think it is.

We must note that for 10 years straight MS has been targeting their product to the uneducated majority (I mean not computer educated). They have been able to bear the fruits of that stupidity (as in not-wanting-to-switch, afraid-of-thinking, that kind of things) for so many years.

Now when the tables are turned, and the stupidity is against them (negative PR because of 'craplets'), they don't want it. Sorry, but you can't have the cake and eat it at the same time.

Those Craplets are the keys to Microsoft's success

[Anonymous Coward]

I worked for one of the leading crippleware-pre-installed-on-Windows companies that pre-installed software on something north of 80% of windows OEM computer out there.

We payed the OEMs handsomely for the privilige of reducing the functionality of our software - both in discounts and in revenue-share kickbacks for upgrades.

I'm pretty certain the money the OEMs makes from this crippleware *MORE* than pays for the cost of Windows (especially the discounted OEM windows) - and is the #1 reason HP, Dell, etc like Windows over Linux.

Get rid of the paid-for-crippleware, and OEMs will jump to Linux very quickly.

I won 2 excellent systems from...

[bealzabobs_youruncle]

Dell, but they weren't excellent until I grabbed fresh drivers and the restore CD and did a clean install. I easily got a 10-15% performance boost on one of them, which I found kind of shocking. OEMs make money pre-loading some of this stuff, so I see their need/desire for it, but they really do need to be more selective. And how about just giving me the applications on a CD and letting me chose, would save me a lot of time.

Re:I concur

[gordo3000]

except its an old problem. there are a lot of different pieces of software that can ruin the speed and functionality of a computer(not nearly as much now, but even still..). the worry is some resource hog will really slow down the experience at random times(a POS piece of software my school required in order to get on the network was just like this, and worse, they didn't have anything I could use to uninstall it or stop it from running ever).

I don't care about the machine, I can write crap software to bug up the running experience if the user lets it run. Unlike a new mac or linux install, this is really a windows only problem(out of the 3). I always do a fresh install with a new windows box to get rid of anything that could be there. And everything runs alot smoother and quicker if I do that.

Re:Good!

[D-Cypell]

Actually, when I bought my Dell laptop I got a 'recovery disk' and not a Windows XP installation disk. The default setup included a disk partition with the XP files on it, presumably the 'recovery disk' just bootstraps installation from this 'hidden' partition.

Naturally, I had blatted this partition when I installed fedora. Then, when a few weeks latter I decided I actually wanted to dual boot I seemed to be SOL. However, in Dell's credit and despite consistent negative press regarding their technical support, they have been excellent. I emailed to explain the situation and the following day, a complete set of CD's for all software (including XP) dropped through my door (no charge).

Microsofts own fault

[Anonymous Coward]

This is Microsofts own fault. Back in the good old days, there were ads telling you to call 1-800-piracy (or whatever), if you bought a PC with Windows, and only got a restore CD, instead of a real Windows CD.

At some point they changed this policy,and now reward those manufacturer who sell systems with restore CDs. Of course the manufacturers jumped the chance, and included as many "craplets" as they could. And with most manufacturers shipping ONLY restore CDs and no install CDs, the only way to get a clean machine is to either buy a second copy of Windows, or replace your fully licensed OEM version with a pirated copy of whatever your friends are running (usually replacing XP Home with Pro, because that's what they have).

No Craplets in Mac OS X

[bhima]

Interestingly this was universally the first thing my friends & family noticed when I quit supporting their HP and Packard Bell MS Windows computers and forced them to update to iMacs. I always wondered why Apple doesn't bring that up in their adverts.

Re:I for one agree

[Rufus211]

I can't find it right now, but somewhere in Microsoft's Windows Genuine Crap stuff they have a tool that'll let you use any windows serial with any version of windows. I used it to upgrade my desktop with a Volume License Key install (and a pirate key) to an OEM key from my laptop (laptop is linux only).

No idea if it's kosher with the licensing, but you could just use a pirated key on install and then use the tool to force the original serial back onto the machine.

Re:My guess

[Lumpy]

The feeling of the user will be: Vista sucks, and I paid 2000$ and my machine is slow like a dog because of Vista. Natural feeling.

Problem is that the customer is RIGHT in that statement. I am demoing Vista here at the office because the Boss wants us to test it as many of our customers are the "oooooh new shiney!" type.

I am running it in slow hardware... Pentium 4 3.2ghz 1gig ram and SATA drives.

and it is in fact SLOW AS A DOG compared to XP.... Yes, I only have a low end Nvidia 6600GT video card with 256 meg of ram, so that might be the problem as well.

But the honest truth is that Vista is very slow compared to XP. if I turn off all the crap it gets better but most people wont turn off the crap because the difference between vista and XP disappears.

And that is what customers want... Purdy shiney flashey! they do not give a rats ass about anything they cant see and feel.

Re:finally!

[AnyThingButWindows]

HP/Compaq is the worst by far. Ever seen an HP from walmart? Or one of those substandard Compaqs? They come with Wildtangent, and backweb spyware installed from the factory. The machines out of the factory take no less than 10 minutes to finish their 'first time setups'. They want you to buy the games, so then you will be bound to the spyware. Most users are dumb enough to leave it on there, and assume its not spyware, and so trust the F500 company like a family member. Some users are so dumb that they 'want' the spyware on there so they can play the crappy card games that came installed on it. HP installs a toolbar on the top that relies on backweb spyware to function. Every time one of these damn things comes into my shop, the first thing I do is run toolbar cop, and hijack this on them, and blow the startup away while in safe mode, and replace norton-ware with AVG. I do not appreciate waiting 5 minutes for a new machine to boot up, especially when it has only 256mb ram, and 64 of it used for video. I have machines that are 7 years old that came with more ram than that. It should be ILLEGAL to load Spyware on a machine from the factory.

Re:Now that you mention it...

[Andy Dodd]

Simple. Instead of bundling/trying to force bundling, Microsoft should force UNBUNDLING.

"We won't sell Windows to you unless you offer your users the option of a clean install with all the apps you want to bundle on seperate media."

I don't think the DoJ would have any problem with Microsoft forcing vendors to let the user decide what they want.

Re:It IS Vista's fault

[TheRaven64]

On every BSD system I've used, there is a per-user process limit that is lower than the total process limit. This means that a fork bomb will only affect the user who runs it. Someone with root privileges can still log in and run pkill/killall.

Actually, this is a real problem on OS X. A load of sysctls haven't been tweaked since the NeXT days, and the default limit is 100 processes per uid. If you've got a few terminals open then it's very easy to hit this limit, and once you do it's pretty much impossible to do anything unless you can ssh in as another user (I miss virtual terminals on OS X). Mind you, it's much easier to kill OS X by simply allocating a load of memory a page at a time. Hopefully Leopard will include a less broken VM subsystem, but I'm not holding my breath.

Re:Craplets?

[derEikopf]

For $10 Dell will include a reinstallation CD. I always get them for my clients and the absolute first step in setting up a new Dell is a reformat/reinstall.

Re:Craplets?

[drinkypoo]

FWIW my HP Compaq nw9440 "mobile workstation" machine didn't come with a bunch of crap. It had the stuff to support the hardware, norton internet security, and that's it. I removed norton internet security of course, as it is a festering pile of flaming dragon shit, and everything has been pretty much fine since. The lower-grade machine you buy the more shit they put on it because they get money for giving you that pile of crap. On a higher-end machine they don't want to offend you.

Re:Craplets?

[hackstraw]

Can I see all the crap and bloat of OEM-installed apps (all for the Benjamins, of course) tainting a person's view of the OS (and even the "Dell"/other brand?) - abso-freikin-lootly.

OK, lets look at this from a "normal" person's POV.

"Normal" people buy computers of two types. Macs or PeeCees. Macs come from one manufacturer, with one OS. PeeCees come from various manufacturers with one OS.

If something goes wrong with their computer, it gets slow, it crashes, or any of that they blame the manufacturer or just accept it. Regardless if its user error, an OS error or hardware error.

To "normal" people Microsoft is an abstraction where people really don't know what they do or provide aside from the fact that they do something and provide something that has netted them LOTS of money, so if they are rich, then it must be good, whatever it is or does.

"Normal" people don't know or care about computers that much. I'm a geek, I know that my DVR has a Motorola RISC processor, a 120 Gig harddrive, and some propriatary OS and software installed on it. But even though I know a little more about the inner workings of the thing, I use it as a black box just like everybody else. I smash the buttons on the remote to switch channels, to select recorded material, to set up my favorite channels, etc. Even though I can point out the bugs in the software and hardware in the box, and I know pretty much how it works, I don't address it as a Motorola 6xxx HD DVR. I just say to people I have Cox's digital cable service with Tivo-like abilities. Others reply, wow thats cool. I have DirectTV, or I just have Cox's digital cable, you mean you can skip commercials?

Now, when people find out I'm a computer guy, they think I know about their computers, and if they run a Windows based PeeCee, I just say I don't use those kinds of computers because I don't. If they ask for advice, I tell them to buy a Mac. I then change the subject to something important like the weather or similar.

Re:Craplets?

[Nf1nk]

Two years ago I bought my wifes new computer from dell business, my gradparents at roughly the same time bought a similar model from dell personal. I bought from the business side because it was about 10% cheaper for the same spec, but the computer was a little uglier. My wifes box came set up for for use with no craplets, no AOL, no MSN, nothing, it was great. It still works great and I haven't had to mess with it. My grandparents box came basicaly pre-pwned with steaming piles of coporate shit all over the screen, it had four differnt isp's software on it and a long list of bizaro apps that didn't work.

I know that there is no way that I would ever buy from the personal side of Dell again.

Re:1. Buy box

[Brian Kendig]

Many PCs these days don't ship with a Windows CD. They only come with a set of "System Restore" CDs which will put the system back to out-of-box configuration, including Windows and all preinstalled apps.

Actually, many PCs these days don't even go that far. I saw a new HP that only came with a picture of a CD printed on a piece of paper, with instructions on how to burn your own system restore CDs from the rescue partition on the hard drive, and directions to boot from the rescue partition to reinstall Windows if the hard drive gets screwed up.

Re:Craplets?

[drinkypoo]

Or you could read a few pages out of the gigantic book "upgrading and repairing pc's" and build your own machine.

Unless you want a laptop.

Barring a gigantic influx of cash I would never buy a prebuilt desktop unless it was a refurb. Sometimes that can get you a system dramatically cheaper than you can even build it. But for a laptop, you have no options but to simply buy one.

PS: Your sig is sort of dumb. if(terror==peace) GenericHuman.this=null; else { } // do nothing Excuse my Java, but your thinking is a bit flawed IMHO.

Well, let's go offtopic here... First, it's a line from a song and so it doesn't necessarily match reality ideally. However, I do agree on it. See, your mistake is believing that the "War on Terror" is actually about stopping terrorism. It is not. You simply cannot stop terrorism by declaring war on it, nor even by waging "war" on it. War and alternatives to war are what lead to terrorism.

What do I mean by that? We created Osama Bin Laden in very real ways. His people were trained by the US government. We gave them money to stop the Opium trade, which they did! for about one year. If you look at the graphs (too lazy to google up Afghani opium exports right now) it really worked for about one year. Of course, the same money paid for flight schools and such and directly supported 9/11.

We were interested in supporting OBL because of our other political goals - which are financially motivated. I won't go into the whole sad story, because you can look it up. But suffice to say that the situation would not be possible without a certain level of tension. The "War on Terror" is specifically designed to cause further conflict because that raises money. Halliburton was found to be the only company ready to go into the middle east and rebuild under some bullshit standards crafted by the US government. You might call me paranoid but I think it would be incredibly naive to believe anything other than that they were notified ahead of time as to what they would need to be ready, or that the specifications were crafted specifically to favor them.

Now, you can make money during either wartime or peacetime, but there's simply more money to be made from conflict. Edge conditions are where the greatest energy differentials exist and thus where the action is.

If we were serious about ending terrorism, we'd stop killing people in third world countries (or helping others to kill them) in order to preserve our financial institutions.