Microsoft's Open Source Guru Faces Tough Fight

coondoggie writes "Microsoft's Sam Ramji is like a turkey knocking on Thanksgiving's door. Ramji has the unenviable task of stretching his neck out into the open source world as Microsoft's representative. On top of it, his employer has preheated the oven with years of hubris, sleights of hand and broken promises. Ramji's Sisyphean task was evident last week in Portland at the Open Source Conference (OSCon) and will likely be fuel for chatter at next week's LinuxWorld gathering in San Francisco."

So welcome them in..

Microsoft is good at winning the game when people are agressive towards them. Which I know its very easy to get hostile towards them. But they are somewhat lost when another group is their host and they are not in control. So we should be welcoming, give them a drink of the kool-aid and treat them like one of the gang. Its going to be hard and we'll have to keep an eye out for deception, but I think we should start playing nicer with them and hope that they do the same. Perhaps Microsoft would see the light and become friendlier to open source and open standards. Unlikely, but so was getting Excel working under Linux through Wine if you asked someone 10 years ago.

In the end, open source is simply a better model for software development and its a lot more impervious to threats than proprietary software is. Businesses just don't get that. In a business, the software focus is on making money. In open source, the software focus is on quality and empowering the end user. In the end, open source and the user will win. Heck, we're already winning, Microsoft is interested in open source (regardless of the reasons).

Don't throw arrows. Be diplomatic.

Re:So welcome them in..

Don't throw arrows. Be diplomatic.

You're right, that would be ineffective without a bow. Throw spears instead.

Re:So welcome them in..

Don't throw arrows. Be diplomatic.

You're right, that would be ineffective without a bow. Throw spears instead.

No. Throw chairs!

Re:So welcome them in..

Ramji has the unenviable task of stretching his neck out into the open source world as Microsoft's representative

I think the the weapon you are looking for is an axe

Re:So welcome them in..

Dear mods, this isn't funny. It's the correct approach. When your enemy agrees to play nice, playing nice back doesn't mean assume they are friendly, it just means play nice.

Re:So welcome them in..

Maybe you're right, unless that long time schoolyard bully is a multinational corporation and we were fucking adults.

Re:So welcome them in..

Well I may not have been the biggest fan of his last few movies, Sam Raimi has done a lot of nerdy work and deserves our respect, although I'll be damned if I can remember when he started working for Microsoft, I guess Spiderman 3 really was that bad.

Re:Don't be a Nevile Chamberlain.

LGPL isn't GPL. You can still "embrace and enhance" LGPL code. GPL is the real test.

Re:So welcome them in..

This is one of those posts where "insightful" and "troll" both apply.

-jcr

Re:Probably the same thing!

Implode, be incinerated, be eviscerated, bleed to death, slowly fall apart from radiation, and gasp desperately for a few more breaths of air, ultimately surrendering.

...And then become a worldwide cultural phenomenon for animation and video games?

Shades of Gray?

From TFA:

The first questioner from the audience wanted to know what it would take for Microsoft not to claim patent infringement violations in open source code.

I'd like to know what it would take for Microsoft to actually back up those claims with proof in a public forum. But that's probably a question for Steve Ballmer, since he's the one who seems to flog the patent FUD.

OTOH, I have contracted at Microsoft (once as a dev doing an intranet site for a testing lab, once being the editor in charge of a couple of sections of the MSW homepage), and it's an interesting culture there. It's not the Death Star with Ballmer walking around, periodically strangling people with his mind just to show who's boss.

In a company that big you can't escape the control freaks and evidence of The Peter Principle [wikipedia.org], but you also have people there like my manager on the intranet site contract, who was the best manager I've had in the 23 years since I started having managers. For all the greed and arrogance people here like to claim go into Microsoft products, there are a lot of people who are there because they love what they do and Microsoft gives them the opportunity to get paid well for doing it. I met some awesome people at Microsoft, people I really respect.

I switched to Mac to avoid Vista. I use NeoOffice instead of MS Office. But I can say that despite some of the aura of badness Microsoft gives off as a company, there are people there who are truly dedicated to the company being a good citizen, putting out good products, and getting along with others. The people who give Ramji a hard time really haven't given him a chance.

Re:Shades of Gray?

Hasn't Microsoft trained us over time with a reverse skinner box approach, by offering cooperation and failing to deliver on the open principles they committed to?

Microsoft has earned the negative attitude they receive with years of practice, hard work and dedication. It's like posting at -1. It takes time to dig yourself out of it and Microsoft can't just create a new account and start over.

If Ramji really wants to be taken seriousyl, he should be prepared to be received poorly for some time to come and take that in stride.

Re:Shades of Gray?

I'm sure there's tons of really great people working at Microsoft. It's easy to put a kind face on Microsoft when you think of the examples of nice people who work there. But when it comes to business, Microsoft is not that nice guy.

No, that's Apple

It's not the Death Star with Ballmer walking around, periodically strangling people with his mind just to show who's boss.

That's what Apple is like.

Re:Shades of Gray?

Unfortnutely the good actions of 'the little people' are completely overshadowed by the greed and arrogance of the top decision makers. As with many global companies, and countries for that matter, most of the people that get to the top are, or become, twisted and evil, even if the general population is really quite nice once you get to know them.

why is this a problem?

why can't we just ignore them? I mean seriously, if there is one thing we (oss guys) can agree on... SURELY this is it. For many years, hate for M$ has been the only thing that the free software community could agree on.

why can't the entire free software crowd just stand up and say "No thanks", we aren't interested in what you have to say.

if you think that M$ will ever help free software in any meaningful way, you obviously haven't been paying attention over the past couple decades.

there is good news in this though. M$ is obviously noticing that every day there are people installing linux who used to use window$. They know that linux on the desktop is closing the gap and many other companies stand to profit from it. After years of pretending OSS didn't exist, or worse yet, attacking it in underhanded ways, they don't have a piece of the action. This whole M$/oss thing, just means they are realizing there is a chance that maybe OSS really IS the next big thing.

My prediction is that a huge company with unlimited resources like google will package up a nice, distro, call it something flashy, advertise the hell out of it, and give it away for free. I am well aware of the options that already exist, but the average person is not. It takes flashy marketing to capture the market.

how can M$ possibly compete with other companies who come in at a price point nearly $0, with a better product, a good ad campaign, AND profit margins of nearly 100%? They can't. Someday the house of cards will fall. They know it, they think, they can adapt by getting involved with OSS. They will fail because we hate them.

Keep your friends close...

I am not a Linux kind of guy, but if I were, I would want Microsoft to be as open, honest, and helpful as I can get them.

Oh Poor Ramji

Poor, poor Ramji. I feel so sorry for him. Getting his head cut off and all. Boo Hoo. TFA is pure Microsoft FUD. Yeah, Microsoft is trying to get along with Open Source. Sure.

Microsoft wants to kill Open Source and don't ever forget that.

Hey Ramji, after all your employer has done to promote Open Source like backing SCO and buying off ISO, why don't you just crawl under a rock someplace and quit wasting our air. Just go cash that big check and live in some kind of peace and harmony with your bought-off ass.

I call bull sh:t on this, they don't want to play

Look at the guy they hired to run their Linux Lab, Hilfe or something like that is his name. They made him up to be a friend to OSS but then he got put in charge of their anti-linux marketing or the likes.

20+ years of watching these guys tell me it is business as usual for MSFT. Windows is their baby and nothing is going to threaten it. Linux and OSS is too compelling for many of Microsofts customers so Microsoft must get its hands dirty and shove its way into that area enough to figure out how to pull those customers back to Windows.

Their business is Windows and maintaining that products position. Software which runs on Windows and some other platform is a threat. This is how it has always been so why would anyone think they are playing any other game? Twenty years folks, twenty years. Just look at ODF and MS-OOXML for proof of how far they'll go to protect their position.

this new guy should not be given the time of day IMO.

LoB

No trust without dropping "patent" claims

We should not trust Microsoft, no matter how nice their liaison to the FOSS community, until they drop their claims that Linux distros infringe their patents. Either they need to specify WHICH patents or withdraw the claim entirely.

If we give in to anything less, we're selling out and lending cred to M$, not to mention allowing them to make money off of FOSS through their "licensing" program.

Re:militant, defiant, rebellious

Wow, no idea what you are trying to say, it spanks of rabble rousing. In the end, what exactly does open source deliver? That is the question. It's being asked by a lot of people. And we as a community need an answer, which we don't actually have. A philosophy is not an answer. The proles will look to the MS shill for an answer. The question should be, what will we give him to take back, beads and trinkets?

Re:militant, defiant, rebellious

Corporate entities will run all over us and then want to be friends. Must we lie down and take it or resist and be defiant because we are the movement? I know what I am saying is controversial but I say it with a reason.

You rebel! An open source person with an anti-corporate message!? I don't believe it. You must have massive balls. This reminds me of the time when Greenday stood up against the evils of Bush. A pop-punk band speaking out against conservatives was pretty progressive and unusual at the time, but they to pererviered and finally won the community to their side. Your fight will be long and hard, but I hope that in the end you too convince the wider open source community that Microsoft is the devil.

You are a brave soul to be so bold with such a hostile pro-corporate crowd. Standing up for what you believe in, with no fear that the open source community might respond with hostility and skepticism is a bold act. I salute you for going against the grain and taking such a controversial "Microsoft is bad" stand. If only there were more brave men like you.

Re:militant, defiant, rebellious

Yeah. Green Day was so much better back in the early nineties when they invented punk rock.

Re:militant, defiant, rebellious

I know what I am saying is controversial

I think you misspelled "incoherent". Just goes to show that you shouldn't always rely on the spell chequer for everything.

Re:I don't give a **** about Microsoft...

Open source is supposed to be cross platform...

Says who?

There are a lot of open-source projects that are platform specific. Sometimes that's what you need.

-jcr