US Blocks Entry For German Black Hat Presenter

bushwhacker2000 alerts us to the dilemma of Thomas Dullien, a prominent security researcher who has been a fixture at the annual Black Hat security conference. Dullien was denied entry into the US on his way to this year's conference. Dullien, a German reverse-engineering expert known in hacker circles as "Halvar Flake," said he was blocked from entering the US on the technicality that he had (years ago) signed a contract with Black Hat as an individual, not as his company. Customs agents said he would need an H1-B visa to perform the contracted two days of training at Black Hat, and put him on the next plane back to Germany.

Hurrah!

Another evil terrorist plot foiled! Tax me some more so i can be even safer!

Re:Hurrah!

Uh, it's a conference. Pretty much any conference has workshops and/or tutorials. The presenters are usually paid (at least expenses), and very often foreign. I've been to conferences in the EU where people from the US gave workshops and tutorials, and ones in the USA where people from the EU gave them. I've seen people from China, South Korea and Japan give them at both.

If this is a precedent, then it means that conferences in the USA will only have tutorials run by natives, reducing the quality (since you'll only get the best of a subset of your attendees able to give them, rather than the best).

Re:Hurrah!

A few years back I was contracted to run 2 x 1 week 'train the trainer' technical courses in the USA based on a training course I had developed. Being an upstanding UK citizen, I applied to the US embassy in London for a H1-B visa and the application was refused for (something like) 'insufficient details of nature of visit'. When I rang the visa enquiries line, I was connected to a call centre in Scotland that said they could provide no assistance as they were not embassy staff and all they could do was send me another form - and, no, they could not put me through the the embassy.

Armed with absolutely no knowledge of what information was missing from my application, I approached American Express who have a visa checking service - I took my application to their office in London (a 1.5 hour train ride), paid £70 extra for a 'personal service' and they checked over my application, gave it their 'OK' and submitted it to the Embassy by courier for same day processing. Guess what - same rejection.

In desperation, I approached a relative who worked in a different embassy in London and explained my dilemma - they rang a contact in the US embassy who put me in touch with someone in the visa department who agreed to look at my documents and call me back. After several hours, they called and said I would need a signed letter from the US training company confirming that they needed me to run the courses as there was no-one suitable in the USA who could do it. I arranged this by fax and then was later invited to the US embassy to get my visa - by now, this was the day before I was due to fly out!

But that's not the end of it - now when visiting the USA on holiday and filling in the visa waiver form on the plane, I have to answer 'yes' to the question asking whether I have ever been refused a US visa; this now guarantees me a near 100% chance of being stopped at US immigration for an interview, which generally goes like this:

* Sit in a waiting room for an hour
* Get called into interview room
* Asked why a visa was refused
* Explain the fax I had to arrange
* Asked 'is that all'?
* Told I am free to go

And this was all well before 9/11 etc.

Standard B1 visa should have been enough

A B1 visa should have been enough since he had no intention of living in USA. I have frequently travelled to USA on a B1 for business purposes. For many nationalities B1 falls under the vis waiver program.

However, when you travel into USA there are certain words you should use carefully. "Work" is one of those. Don't say "I am coming to work in USA". Say "I am on business, attending a conference".

Re:Standard B1 visa should have been enough

Bingo. As asinine as the G is, if he had actually lined up his ducks in a row, he'd probably be on his way to the con now.

I actually had an experience like that. I was touring to Broadcom to do a little side project for them. The idea was that the people who wanted the work done were in San Diego, but they would pay me through the Canadian branch of Broadcom. I'd go there to get the specs, then head home to do the work.

I told the customs dude [in Toronto no less] that I was "heading to the states for work." It was at 3am [6am flight] and I wasn't thinking right. The guy asked me about a visa and I said I didn't have one. Then he got all uppity about stealing jobs and all that. I told him that I was doing the work in Canada, but I had to meet the people first. I had to do a secondary check and had my fingerprints taken/etc. Was really unnerving. If I just told them I was heading there for a business meeting it would have been a simple process...

Anyways, I agree, whenever the subject of "work" comes up around US customs you have to make sure you have your wording correct. Otherwise they just assume you're a job thieving illegal alien and will get all uppity.

Tom

Re:Hurrah!

The US immigration/Visa regulations are well-known around the world to be something out of the dark ages.

It's not just the US: most countries have bizarre immigration laws.
The beauty of immigration laws, from the point of view of the government, is that they can be as screwed-up as you like, and no-one is ever going to do anything about it. By definition, none of people affected have got a vote, and once they have been turned away they are in no position to fight back through the legal system. So immigration laws are always arbitrary, capricious and unfair: the way all laws would be if the power of the government were not balanced by the courts.

Re:Hurrah!

There is no conspiracy, just a misunderstanding between legal systems and an apparent unwillingness to resolve the issue. Generally, it is not a problem for a Canadian or a US Citizen to come to Europe to perform a service for a few days which he invoices from the US. In Germany, the rule is that he must not spend more than 6 months in Germany lest he falls under German employment law (and needs a work permit etc). It is not a problem as an American to enter Germany, conduct a trainings class (that is not offered by anyone else anywhere), and leave three days later. Also, as far as I am informed, had the agreement for payment been signed by my current full-time employer (a German company), the entire thing would have been no problem -- it is legitimate for a German company to send an employee abroad to conduct a trainings class. The agreement was signed by me though, several years ago. Under German tax law, there's a special status for certain specialized tasks (amongst others, specialized teachings) that allows one to act in some aspects like a 1-person-company. Think of this as a more restricted form of freelancing (e.g. you can't just decide to have said status if you're a programmer, you have to qualify for it due to the specializedness of whatever it is that you're doing). The issue now is that today's custom agent did not treat this any different from a regular Joe trying to get into the US for a full-time job. Which this isn't. It's more that someone 'specialized' is contracted in from abroad for two days to provide expertise not available locally. I hope this clarifies the situation a bit.

The law is the law...

It sucks, but you can't expect immigration officials to randomly let people into the country just because they feel like it.

Technicality?

How is this a technicality? He didn't have a visa to do the work here that he had contracted for.

Re:Technicality?

How is this a technicality? He didn't have a visa to do the work here that he had contracted for.

Because at its very essence the visa wasn't needed--all that was needed was a piece of paper saying that he was working for a company in Germany who was sending him, instead of going over and being "employed" by a company as a trainer in the US.

This is dictionary definition of technicality. One sentence needed to be worded slightly differently even though both sentence variants meant, in terms of the business relationship, basically the same thing. One variant makes the immigration bureaucracy happy, the other blows a multi-thousand dollar trip.

Who can enter under the VWP?

Under the Visa Waiver Program, an individual working in such a scenario is not considered "working in the US" until they hit 90 days. "The Visa Waiver Program (VWP) enables nationals of certain countries to travel to the United States for tourism or business for stays of 90 days or less without obtaining a visa

Q: Who Is Eligible to Use the VWP?
A: To qualify for the VWP, you must:

* Intend to enter the United States for 90 days or less;
* Have a passport lawfully issued to you by a VWP country that is valid for six months beyond your intended visit;
* Be a national of the VWP country that issued your passport;
* Have been checked using an automated electronic database containing information about inadmissible aliens to the United States;
* Have a return trip ticket to any foreign destination other than a territory bordering on the United States or an adjacent island unless:

1. You are a resident of an adjacent island,
2. This requirement is waived by the Attorney General under regulations, or
3. You are a visitor for business who arrives aboard a private aircraft that maintains a valid agreement guaranteeing to transport you out of the United States, if you are found to be inadmissible or deportable;

* Present to the U.S. Customs and Border Protection (CBP) officer a completed and signed Form I-94W, Nonimmigrant Visa Waiver Arrival/Departure Form. (Please see "How Do I Get an Arrival Departure Document?" for more information about arrival/departure records.);

* Not pose a safety threat to the United States;
* Not have failed to comply with the conditions of any previous admission under the Visa Waiver Program;
* If arriving by air or sea, you must arrive aboard a carrier that signed an agreement, "signatory carrier", guaranteeing to transport you out of the United States if you are found to be inadmissible or deportable;
* Convince the examining CBP officer that you are clearly and beyond a doubt entitled to be admitted and that you are not inadmissible under section 212 of the Act. For reasons that would make you inadmissible, please see the Immigration and Nationality Act at INA 212 (a);
* Waive any right to review or appeal a CBP officer's decision as to your admissibility, other than on the basis of an application for asylum or an application for withholding of removal under the Convention Against Torture and Other Cruel, Inhuman or Degrading Treatment or Punishment; and
* Waive any right to challenge your removal, other than on the basis of an application for asylum or an application for withholding of removal under the Convention Against Torture and Other Cruel, Inhuman or Degrading Treatment or Punishment. Overview of the Visa Waiver Program (VWP) [cbp.gov]

Re:Technicality?

It's a technicality because he wouldn't have needed a visa had the contract been between Blackhat and his company. What determines whether he gets in is whether he signed the contract as an individual or as the CEO of his company.

What bothers me about this is not so much that they picked up on this rather minor technicality but that the response is extreme and inflexible. Why not let him fix the technical flaw making the contract with his company? The reason they gave was that he couldn't do this because he had already applied as an individual. So what? That may be immigration policy, but its a stupid, inflexible policy. Similarly, it is ridiculous to bar him forever from using the visa waiver program, though they are indeed applying their normal policy to him. The assumption is that any violation of the rules should be treated as evidence that the individual is untrustworthy and should therefore have to go through the full visa application process. That is an obviously unsound assumption - there are plenty of cases like this one in which the violation is trivial and/or unintentional. Exclusion from the visa waiver program should be restricted to serious, intentional violations.

Just move BlackHat off the US!

It's clear that this kind of conference is now impossible to gather in the US, so relocate it in a free country. Why not Mexico, South Am, East Asia, Russia ?

Re:Just move BlackHat off the US!

Actually, this incident doesn't demonstrate any kind of problem with holding conferences in the US. If he had merely planned to attend the conference, he wouldn't have been denied entry. What got him in trouble was his plan to do training for two days prior to the conference, that is, to work in the United States. Granted, he was denied entry on a technicality that he should have been allowed to fix, but what that means is that if you want to work in the US you have to be careful.

hm.

Would it be a problem to set-up a video conference to train these people from around the world?

I don't want to go to the US anymore.

This is the reason I don't want to go to the US anymore.

Now I have to fear that the people here did not do their work properly (i.e. gave me the wrong visa application), and that I'll be rejected at the gates after standing in a huge queue before immigration at the airport.

The other reason is that after providing the security services with boatloads of personal information, fingerprints and other biometrics, some flag will go up in some obscure system, and I'll be (hopefully) sent back straight away by unnamed guys, and if I'm unlucky, get deported to the happy camp of Guantanamo inc. to have all human rights stripped from me for reasons unknown.

B.

Re:I don't want to go to the US anymore.

Hell I live here and I don't feel all that comfortable. And the gov't has my passport for renewal with no liklihood it'll get back to me any time soon.

Why would an international conference be in the US

They've made it quite clear that they don't like "furriners", so why are people still pressing the issue? Canada is a free and open society, and just to the north. We have lots of conference space in environments much more conducive to rational thought.

Simple

just sneak across the Mexico-US border. That's how everyone else gets in. Planes and paperwork? Pfffft, old school.
       

Not A Good Sign

Halvar's been kicked out of the US?

This is not good. It's my understanding that once you've been kicked out, it's much, much, much harder to get back in.

That leaves me rather scared. I've known Halvar for almost six years; we were in Singapore together at Black Hat Asia. He's a very intelligent engineer, doing very good research, and has done more than almost anyone to make people realize that obfuscation is not security. We, as an industry, need his voice. (A bit cynical, but seriously, we as an American industry want his talents put to work here, rather than overseas.)

Simple arguments like -- nobody could figure out how this works, they'd have to be able to read code -- have been destroyed because of Halvar's work. You may not realize it, but without concrete examples of attacks, software developers simply cannot comprehend attacks against their code that they can't do themselves. Halvar is a critical innoculation against technically inept but vaguely plausable excuses why something must be impossible.

Halvar does the impossible regularly. Seriously, he's an artist, and the American security industry is directly harmed by not being able to learn from him. What's the story going to be? That Halvar can only do training in India, and China, and in Europe? Yes, that sounds like a wonderful idea. Everyone else's code gets more secure while ours rots on the vine.

The only thing more embarrassing than this was when Xioyun Wang, the Chinese professor who cracked MD5, was denied entry to the US. Oh well, Halvar, I guess you're in good company...

--Dan Kaminsky

Re:Not A Good Sign

[...] What's the story going to be? That Halvar can only do training in India, and China, and in Europe? Yes, that sounds like a wonderful idea. Everyone else's code gets more secure while ours rots on the vine.[...]

Given that all US software development will be outsourced to India and China anyways, it makes sese to give these folks an advantage in learning about software security.

Absolutely right

Absolutely right! Halvar is extraordinarily talented and it will be a terrible shame if his class [blackhat.com] is canceled. But it starts on Monday, so unless they do it by video conference I can't see him making it. I still hope to see him when I fly to Vegas on Thursday, but the odds aren't good :(.

I'd like to know just what the immigration department expects US conferences to do when bringing in foreign speakers. Halvar says they wanted to treat him like an "employee" of BlackHat and get an H1-B visa [wikipedia.org]. But that is a ridiculous as it is a multi-year process. Halvar thinks coming as a representative of his own German company will help, but we shouldn't have to require that foreigners incorporate just to give a simple presentation or training class here.

I'm an American who has been paid to give presentations and training in many countries, including Germany. And I've never been hassled by their immigration dept. or received any special visas. So its embarrassing and harmful that the US subjects visitors to our country to all of this crap (including the fingerprinting and pushing other countries toward RFID passports). Its no wonder that many conference producers, including BlackHat, have been increasing the number of cons held offshore. The US just isn't seen as a welcoming place.

Pardon the long rant, but I hate seeing my friends put through this. And I'm sure similar things happen to thousands of people we don't know every day. Also, if those of us in the US don't fix our system, other countries might copy it and then we'll have to deal with this shit when we travel.

-Fyodor
Insecure.Org [insecure.org]

What a sad state of affairs...

Maybe (definitely) a bit off topic, but reading this stuff just pisses me off a bit... What did the US ever achieve with all of its draconian checks and procedures in airports and all of their visa crap? Other than (borderline) infringing on the privacy of many innocent individuals it will never be able to stop the most determined people with bad intentions (or desperate Mexican or other immigrants at that). It is deeply disturbing that the USA hands out billions to Israel for military purposes whilst on the other hand supplying Egypt, Saudi Arabia and God knows who else with weapons. What are they expecting? Arming to groups of people who have had beef for ages to the teeth and then expecting everybody to play nice? They are just creating their own (and everybody elses) problems. No measure of retina scans, fingerprinting and other niceties will ever be able to avert the inevitable consequences their foreign policy will have.

I'll be the first to rail against the US but...

every country has this issue. All countries don't like foreigners taken their jobs. Look into any work visa program in any country and it is extremely difficult to gain authorization and very easy to make mistakes. When I was traveling back and forth to Canada with my company I was ALWAYS sure to brief the customs people that I was not there "for work" but rather "attending business meetings." There is a large difference.

DMCA

Well at least he wasn't denied entry and/or sent to Gitmo [wikipedia.org] on DMCA [wikipedia.org] grounds.

We don't need no education!

Thank god, the US has no need of foreigners coming in and teaching. If that kind of crazy idea caught on, all hell would break loose. The population might become sufficiently educated to start to question the silly rules.

They still have security conferences in the US?

I thought they would have learned by now [usdoj.gov] not to have security conferences in the US. Anyway, US visa and dealing with DHS (immigration) is so difficult that anyone who is expecting international attendees should pick some other country to host the conference. There is a short list of countries (Western Europe, high-income countries in Asia) where people can easily get visas to the US. For people not from those countries it can be nearly impossible to get a visa. And even for Western Europeans and high-income Asians, they can still get turned away upon arrival. This country is not a good pick for hosting international conferences.

Both sides are nuts

Halvar was wrong for not having the correct visa. That being said, the government should probably spend their money going after the millions of people who come in illegally through the Mexican border, with the intent to stay a lot longer than a week, instead of a single German guy doing a little work and attending a conference. Not to mention, it is quite possible that terrorists are crossing the Mexican border to get in, now that we have 'no-fly lists' and 'watch lists'.

He should have just snuck in

from Mexico...

h1-b visa

They should have just handed him a fucking ID card. That's what they're doing for all the rest of the illegal immigrants.

To Germany!

And next year the hold the con in Germany so as to avoid this. Honestly though is it a big deal? He's (was) already here, just let him go to the freaking con. I hope at least they didn't charge him for the flight back..

Failed the test

Some hacker this guy is, can't even socially engineer his way into the country.

Happening in other fields as well

About a month ago, some of my coworkers attended a conference on molecular spectroscopy in the US. One of the scheduled talks there was canceled because the speaker was denied entry to the US. Apparently, when the border control asked him about his profession, he said that he's an "atomic physicist".

I think if this sort of thing continues, more and more conference organizers will simply opt to hold their conferences in countries that are a bit more free.

It's a big problem for all sorts of conferences

Especially since the US considers anyone not from NATO/SATO a potential terrorist.

But hey, lots of /. ers and ACLU types want to give the same government that demonstrated this little lack of common sense more power.
,br> Remember: The opposition will have that power sooner or later, and the guy who enforces it is, at best just trying to make a living, at worst easily corruptible.

Actually, on the last point, if this had happened in Lat-Am, a few $$ would have made it all OK.

H1B1 regulations and lectures...

I thought that work regulations do not concern lectures and short trainings? And least it is how it seemed to work in most civilized countries... :-)

Don't Go

Halvar, seriously: Don't go to the US anymore.

I've avoided them ever since DeCSS (I was a named defendant) and I don't plan to change that. As I see it, for a foreign national in the computer security business, pretty much anything you do while, before or potentially-might-do-after your trip can result in them locking you up indefinitely.

And the real horror is: A couple years ago, people even on /. would've labeled me paranoid and anti-american for that statement. Today, I fear, most will agree and some will post details of the relevant laws.

Serious Matter

This is a very serious matter for the technical and scientific community. A lot of us travel internationally to attend technical conferences with little or no customs hassles. Now other countries will probably retaliate by requiring special visas for US citizens to attend conferences in their countries. This is going to curtail a lot of this travel for US citizens. Just another example of the US becoming more isolated and further behind than the rest of the world. Thanks a lot George Bush.

about time!

About time the billions of my tax money finally catches someone entering the country by plane. Not like we can catch infectious TB patients...

3 times....

Re:Meanwhile.. Walmart is in Spanish

Don't shop there. Convince others to do the same. I mean by this logic, every store that opens its doors in the states must flourish and last forever. Sadly that isn't the truth. Walmart prevails because people whine and bitch and shop there anyways.

Either don't shop there, or change labour laws to include more reasonable minimum wages for adults, language requirements, etc...

Tom

Re:Meanwhile.. Walmart is in Spanish

The ignorance level when it comes to illegal aliens is amazing. Being upset about illegal aliens is one thing but the blatant racism is not only unnecessary but it just makes you look like a fucking retard.

Next time, drop the rhetoric that has been so popular against homosexuals and illegal aliens recently and instead talk about it in civil terms.

Thanks.

Re:Boo Fucking Hoo.

What about the people that informed him which application to fill out? I mean, it's not common knowledge that for presenting a workshop at a conference you have to fill in visa application 157-12399-b. Oh, he's from Germany and earns more than 25k per year? then it's 157-12399-b'

B.

Re:Meanwhile.. Walmart is in Spanish

It is not OK if they are illegal -- and you or I have no idea whether they are illegal or not.

Even if they are illegal, they pay taxes because it is withheld from their pay checks. Illegals tend to overpay payroll taxes because although they pay withholding they don't get refunds; they also get social security and Medicare withheld from their wages.

They would be no more unlikely to pay their hospital bills than any other Wal-Mart employee.

Re:Meanwhile.. Walmart is in Spanish

I am sure they pay taxes, either directly or indirectly. How do you buy gas, rent an apartment, or anything else in the US without getting taxes involved? The answer is that you can't. And the sad thing is some of these taxes like SS and Medicare will be for benefits that are never be traceable back to the person who paid for them.

Re:O well...

What is that? A conspiracy theory? You know it's all his own fault.

Sending Halvar back is one thing....

...reading these knee-jerk jingoist responses on /. is quite another.

And no, not just because ppl should RTFA before engaging in ludicrous parochialisms.

Consider: The Copernican revolution in how the US (unlike any other Western country) deals with travellers like Halvar coming to its borders from a legal, cultural, historical perspective is in the context of a wholesale erosion of human and civil rights -- of American citizens (not the hapless foreigner popping in to educate you). Realise how these incidents do sustained damage to the US reputation, its economy and its already shockingly insular society, and you will also catch a glimpse of the loss of rights and freedoms for Americans themselves.

Re:Sounds legit

I've known artists going to conventions in the US, from Canada, who didn't fill out the proper paperwork, and were turned away at the border by US Customs. They had their artwork with them, and since they were going to sell it in the US, needed a different visa.

Not that uncommon.

Re:Meanwhile.. Walmart is in Spanish

This isn't an anti-american post, this is the point of view of someone outside America, so please think twice before downmodding. So, here we go.

so what? I mean, americans have this weird sense of what's right and what's wrong. For one, Spanish seems to be some kind of dirty language, something only ugly dark-skinned people speak. It's the language of evil. What's wrong with being bilingual? If schools start teaching spanish people complain. Why? I mean... "the more you know", right? If instead of speaking one language, you can speak 2? That's cool, opens a lot of possibilities.

Also, america is also ashamed of the south. You like white christmas and all that crap, and also, that's the way christmas is supposed to be. I wonder if christmas is white in Florida, or even in New Orleans? No, but you don't talk about that. People in those places go barefoot and drive in dirt roads, ewww. They also chase alligators and fish in the mississippi. I mean, if you're fishing it MUST be in some pretty lake or a crystaline river, surrounded by mountains and brown maple leaves in fucking vermont.

What the fuck is wrong with you people? There's a whole world of things, languages, foods, places, and you complain because ILLEGALS ARE TAKING OUR JOBS AND NOT PAYING TAXES! What good are taxes for? I mean, in my country I can at least get FREE medical attention, even AIDS drugs. Even if I don't have a job and don't pay taxes. Hell, even if I'm not a citizen, I can still get all of that. Do you pay your taxes? What do these taxes do anyway? You need to pay for health, food, college. In my country, at least I can CHOOSE. I can pay for health, or use the State health services (sometimes the latter is better). I can go to a private university, but I can also go (and I do) to a state-funded university (and my degree is just as good in any of them). And I can even get free food from the government (and not food stamps, to be treated like scum at the store).

Do you realize that you are living in a country that spends half of the WORLD'S combined budgets in defense? What good has it been? You had 9/11, but "nobody saw that coming". You had Katrina, but "nobody saw that coming". And it's your fault, because you whine about Wal-Mart, but still buy there. You whine about the illegal immigrants, but if you were a store owner, you would hire one. You whine about catastrophes (natural or terrorism), but you don't have the people you need, because they're fighting in a war far away, trying to STEAL resources from a poor country.

America has the potential to be a fucking PARADISE, if you only cut the crap, the fear of "socialism" and "communism", the "take care of yourself and fuck everyone else" attitude. America never sleeps, they're ever waiting for doomsday to happen, the day China, Korea, or even some crappy island in the pacific will try to attack you. But instead of just waiting, you go and provoke everyone, showing off your weapons and killing innocent people all over the world. Dude, NOTHING will happen to america. Just stop messing with the rest of the world. In the process you will save BILLIONS of dollars, that could be spent in education, health, etc. But no, you have been brainwashed into thinking "that's communism!".

What good is the government for? Are they only there to "govern" you? To tell you what to do? (You know, only in the world's worst dictatorships a police officer draws his gun and put it in your head, let alone "take you in custody" for no reason other than suspected terrorism. Oh yea, and in america that happens too. IF a police officer tells you to get out of the car, and you don't obey, you are likely to be put in front of a loaded gun, or maced. Even if your children are in the car.) You know what that is? That's the government AFRAID of you. How can you live in a country where the government is afraid of you? In my country 15 years ago we gave the people the option to have their retirement funds in a 401(k)-like system. Your money was invested, you get interests from it, etc. Now a

Re:Meanwhile.. Walmart is in Spanish

Ah, yes, but you missed my point. It's not about the government providing everything for free. It's about having options. It's about balance. Socialism and communism are extremes, but wild capitalism is also an extreme. I trust my government, I work already and my retirement fund is in the state system from the first day, because I chose so. My neighbor might have chosen a private retirement fund, good for him! I also chose private healthcare, but my mom is a retired "government employee" (a teacher, go figure), so she used a mix of both. You see?

Another example: Spain. France. Germany. I could go on, but those countries are, to a great extent, socialist. Are they worse than America? Don't they get better? (because you say that taking care of yourself, or your community, makes it better). Let me give you an example, and this is true. I have a friend who lives in spain, and he has a young daughter. He told me that the government sent him a letter, reminding him that the girl didn't go to the dentist in over a year. It reminded him that it was free, any dentist he wanted. Scary? I don't think so. That's what I mean by "the government taking care of you". Sure, they don't do it because it's nice, they do it because detecting a cavity early is cheaper than paying for tooth extraction or whatever. But, when was the last time your HMO sent you a letter, reminding you that you should get a check-up?

It's more of a thing of altruism I think. You may never understand me, because we see different things. Let me see if I can explain what I think: you are afraid of giving power to the government, because they will come back later to expect something from you. I see it more, you may say idealistically, but well, I think the government is the PEOPLE. The government gives me things (health, whatever), and it expects me to pay taxes, and nothing else. You too are afraid of your government, because of the way you think (warning: I'm not saying it's wrong, I just say I think different): you always expect something in return, and you think everyone else also expects something in return. Well, I think the government is more harmless than a big corporation. Sure, a huge government monopolizing everything is not healthier either.

Do I hate big corporations? Certainly not, I try to avoid them whenever I can, because you give them more power if you buy things from them. But obviously there are certain things, huge things, that can't be paid by small companies: A large scale network, like the phone, cable, well those are examples of things that can't be done by small companies.

But then you have the big corporation scandals, all over the place. Enron, Worldcom... A tiny government that allows itself to be lobbied, and that's what happens. Big corporations care only about the numbers, and WILL fuck anything they need in order to keep their numbers high enough (the premise is "it's never enough").

You also say that "Spending that money brought down the Iron Curtain and freed western Europe." What? Are you on crack or what? That money actually help build the iron curtain. The USSR wasn't as bad as you and I were told it was. If they were poor it was only because you provoked them, you made them spend more and more in weapons and military. If you weren't there to bother them, they MIGHT have been a happy communist country, and nothing else. But no, america can't stand the idea of communism, not even socialism, so we have to destroy it. You didn't free western europe either. You only went there because the japs touched your ass. It wasn't your war. Vietnam wasn't either, and you were there to "free" them.

See it this way: If you didn't shake the USSR, maybe they wouldn't have needed so many AK-47s. Those AK's wouldn't be in the hand of muslim extremists now. They wouldn't be so powerful, maybe 9/11 wouldn't have happened if you didn't bring down the iron courtain. That's how I see it.

Dude, wake up. War is business. Billions of dollars in the hands of the corporations who make the weapons, and that's

Re:I sure wish...

I sure wish those goons would show up at the house down the street from me that is occupied by 4 illegal alien families, and deport them for not having the right visa...

If you know that there is a crime being committed, then YOU are obligated to report it. If you know that they are illegal and you do not report them, then you are a criminal for obstructing justice.

If you don't know that they're illegal, then you have just accused people of being criminals for no reason better than their heritage.

And that is indeed racism.

Re:Karma be damned !!

This is new here, an authority fanboi :)
How may I subscribe to your newsletter?

Not BS, makes perfect sense ...

All through the cold war, when the USSR truly wanted to destroy the US, AND the USSR had backpack nukes, the US/Canada border was open. If the border could be open then, when one or 2 individuals could have walked into the US with a nuke, very realistically, why do I need a passport now? It's bullshit.

Overall I appreciate your post, but this one point is terribly superficial. The USSR was not suicidal, it's leaders loved their children and wanted them to live and prosper, they did not view a WW3'ish scenario as a prophesized day of judgement where those fighting in the jihad get a free ticket to paradise.

Re:Don't let your biases override your reason

In your mind, case closed at that point. I'm sorry this happened, but is it really so shocking?

I have two things to say:

1. I'm sure everyone has been in situations where the person behind the desk has all the authority they need to make your problem go away... but by rigidly follows the rules, refuses to do anything to help you. That's the bureaucratic mindset you've described and it generally isn't a good thing.

2. Do you think this sort of thing would have happened to someone with the right connections? Or would they have bent over backwards to smooth out the bumps?

Re:Don't let your biases override your reason

In your mind, case closed at that point. I'm sorry this happened, but is it really so shocking?

Whats really shocking is that he didn't wind up in Gitmo.

I mean *what* has the department of homeland security come to????

Re:WRONG VISA

Now go back to being afraid that the evil Americans are going to send you to Guantanamo because you picked your nose in the customs line. Fucktards.

You know dude, that's not so much the point as that I spend my tourist Euros rather in places where I feel welcome. Now, giving your quite foul attitude you probably couldn't care less. But consider this:

Very qualified researchers and students shun the US and prefer to teach and study in other places. Important conferencs are held outside of the US. Evil, but important foreigners from multinational companies refuse to fly into the US for meetings, due to the crap and the indignity they are put through.

You may say, who cares? Well, for a start the deans of a few top university who voiced their fears about tightening (alas useless) immigration laws years ago, the economy will care. Multinational US companies care, since it's much, much harder to find top people outside of the US who are willing to put up with this shit. All those consequences are medium to long term, but will hurt the US. There are a lot more good reasons why a xenophobic attitude towards everything foreign, especially highly qualified people, will hurt a country.

Now who exactly is the fucktard?

Re:Meanwhile.. Walmart is in Spanish

Sorry man, Spanish is a language spoken in Spain a country located in Europe, one of the ten most developed countries in the world.

Hispans is the correct word if you want refer to Spanish speakers who lives in central and south America, they are a mix of native people and Spanish citizens in the American conquest a lot of years ago.

It's like say to an American native apache he is English.