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Microsoft to Simplify Downgrades From Vista to XP 175
castrox writes "Microsoft has noted that many corporate users want to run XP instead of Vista. They are now simplifying the downgrade process for top OEMs. Currently, all OEMs must call Microsoft whenever a downgrade is done. After the new procedure is put into place, OEMs may submit batches of keys to Microsoft online. According to the Microsoft blog on ZDNet, the 'downgrade software' will still need to be supplied by the end user. The deal is rather perplexing — it does not seem like you can convert the license since the only eligible versions for downgrading is Ultimate and Business. The company has more details available in a pdf document online."
The downgrade installation manager... (Score:5, Funny)
Turbo Debuggerer
Solomon
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Turbo Debuggerer
Re:The downgrade installation manager... (Score:5, Insightful)
Seems like an up-grade or at least a non-grade to me.
Not that this matters... (Score:3, Insightful)
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Re:Not that this matters... (Score:4, Informative)
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Fire away, more karma than shiva and all that, but for the record, I'm not trolling, I'm predicting what I happen to think is the most likely course of events.
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You're probably right. And it'll probably the last nail in the coffin for Vista. Hackers of the world unite! We must mobilize a program to bring DX10 to XP. If this is done, it will be a serious blow to the MS juggernaut!
Fire away, more karma than shiva and all that, but for the record, I'm not trolling, I'm predicting what I happen to think is the most likely course of events.
Yeah! Let's show Microsoft, that because their newest OS sucks, WE'LL JUST USE THEIR OLD ONE!
Erm. That still leaves Windows computers the de facto standard.
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Because if everyone continued staying with XP, and eventually Wine or somebody would come up with a decent XP compatible.
Then Microsoft would be in danger of becoming like one of those BIOS vendors. They make money sure, but it ain't billions and billions.
And it could be hard for Microsoft to break free from "XP Compatible", just like Intel couldn't get people to switch from x86 to the Itanic.
Microsoft could (would?) sue of course, but I don't think they want to even go
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Also I can't see a great deal of money coming in from Vista sales this year so Microsoft's numbers won't be that stellar either. This must be why its not spending a great deal of money on channel programmes for Vista. Down here at the tip of Africa, Microsoft has dithered for nearly eight
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And yes, I just ran into this recently. Already some new HP's have no 'offical' XP driver support. In other words, if you want XP drivers, you'll need to go to the OEM sites individually to get them. So yeah, they're out there for now, but it's going to increasingly be a pain in the ass to get at them.
Re:Perplexing? (Score:4, Insightful)
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So, it would be cheaper to buy MS Office than to use OpenOffice.org for free, just because of the training issues.
I wonder what those folks are going to do wh
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What price do you pay for XP this way? (Score:4, Interesting)
Oh, the joys of working with Microsoft software.
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Home users get to buy XP again. (Score:5, Informative)
My friends tell me that what the summary reports is accurate:
This is true for home users. Your Vista license can not be used for XP, even if you simply upgraded. When you transfer your XP license to Vista, M$ won't give it back to you with their "Please let me use my OS" validation page. So, if you make the mistake of "upgrading" XP to Vista, you will have to buy XP again if you don't like Vista. Let's just say that people have not been happy with that and hope that M$ fixes it real soon.
Business users, I'm sure, get the usual double M$ tax. They pay the M$ tax when they buy the computer and they pay it again when they buy the OS and actual software, assurance plans and other nonsense.
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Or, you could just re-install XP and watch it work without any problems. I'm guessing you never tried.
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You might want to check that out before relying on "Twitter" as your source of all things Microsoft licensing related.
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Nice work Judge Colleen Kollar-Kotelly.
LoB
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Easier Plan. (Score:3, Interesting)
How about this? When you buy a PC with either Vista Home version, call the manufacturer and say you cannot accept the terms of the EULA and want to return Vista for a refund. Use the refund to buy XP home.
That would work great, except you will have to spend $100 to get XP, which won't have drivers for your shiny new laptop. With M$, your options are, deal with a buggy Vista install or use preinstalled 7 year old software or don't buy a new computer.
The only way to know for sure if your hardware is go
No Choice Purchase. (Score:3, Interesting)
An AC says:
Corperations that have a volume license and buy a dell witha license sticker on it are incredibly stupid. They are intentionally paying Microsoft twice on every laptop and PC they buy. The director of IT should be fired for such wasteful purchasing practices.
It's not stupid if you don't have a choice because the vendor won't sell without the M$ tax. Companies will sell discarded boxes to their employees at "cost" and the price is around $200. It includes no software, but that does not mean
Re:No Choice Purchase. (Score:5, Interesting)
First of all, corporate customers on the volume license agreement pay per full time equivilent employee, not per machine, for their licenses. This license allows them to install any office or windows pro products on all systems the company owns, provided they originally came with any version of windows from the OEM.
The license does NOT cover, however, the installation of windows XP pro, or vista business, on a computer that originally came wihth Linux (Dell's Ubuntu laptops), freeDOS, or MacOS (all apple computers). The corporate license of the OS is for the UPGRADE only to the professional version of the latest or previous release. In this case, XP or Vista.
The problems for businesses are many:
- businesses or government institutions who are on the license and don't re-image all their systems end up licensing XP pro/vista business TWICE for each employee.
- In order to not double pay, you must buy the system with a home version of windows, then image it using the corporate license to XP Pro or Vista Business. In this way, you pay minimally for the home version, then upgrade the system to pro using the corporate license.
- Many places do a hybrid method, and only double pay in some instances: they deploy large quantities of desktops or laptops at a time and order with home edition, then since they are managing them all with altiris they just stick the corporate image on them when they arrive. But they also some employees to choose which system they want to order for example, customize one specifically for them from dell.com. Then, those people always end up ordering xp pro because they don't want to have to re-load the system when they receive it from the factory. Since these people are ordering one at a time, its difficult to manage them with an automated deployment system like altiras because of increased down time and technician time.
So, its not a clear cut argument. It is definately a problem, and this complexity is 100% due to microsoft's stubbornness on the "upgrade" license (fact: you cannot purchase a MS OS volume license that is not upgrade only). MS should be more kind to their large customers and allow them to install on ALL systems, not just all MS systems. But they specifically do it on purpose as the loophole way around the DOJ lawsuit which prohibited microsoft from banning OEM's from selling non-microsoft computers. So this way, they get to have their cake, and still follow the letter of the judgement.
Avoid Double Pay by Double Pay?! (Score:2)
Someone who knows way too much about current big dumb company Windoze licensing says:
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Re:What price do you pay for XP this way? (Score:5, Funny)
I'll do whatever it takes to make my business people-ready.
Comment removed (Score:4, Insightful)
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Their best bet is to simply fix what they can in SP1 and hope nobody remembers what Vista was originally like (like they did with XP).
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It's almost like the "new coke" thing- make something worse and people will be happy when you give them back the crap they had. Only this time, M$ makes out like a bandit.
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I'm confused (Score:1)
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Maybe they should offer a downgrade to Windows ME for the Vista Basic edition.
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However, 2000 doesn't "phone home" to Microsoft. Apparently, when you try to install XP with a Vista license, it complains, and doesn't let you activate online. You then have to call Microsoft and get that individual license validated for XP. Now Microsoft is allowing you to validate batches of Vista licenses for XP, so you can downgrade across hundreds of computers without having to call Microsoft for each individual box.
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If I read TFA correctly, the deal here is that you are buying Vista, but you get to run XP until you are ready to move the machine to Vista. If you just bought XP you'd have to buy a Vista upgrade later.
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*sets down bong* Whoa.... *giggles*
Leave it to Microsoft... (Score:5, Insightful)
Why do the companies have to tell Microsoft everytime they "downgrade" a PC from Vista to XP? Does the company receive some sort of credit for being forced to buy an OS they don't want/need?
Why can't they just buy the PCs with XP already on them without having to uninstall Vista, then re-install XP, then beg for Microsoft's forgiveness, THEN apply all the hundreds of patches - each of which also requires a reboot, and then...
Re:Leave it to Microsoft... (Score:5, Insightful)
Companies don't do it this way, they use Windows Deployment Services (formerly RIS), and install fully patched and ready to go OS and Applications using PXE boot off the network. Total Tech time (not process time) for a complete (re)install, about 5 minutes (or less). Anyone with more than a handful of machines would benefit from WDS(RIS) setup.
Right now, when someone complains about "slow computer" or other mysterious problem, I WDS the machine and a few minutes (30-60 mins) later, a fully functioning workstation, with all the standard applications required, and none of the cruftware/crapware.
It is the only way to go, if Windows is involved.
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Who is the idiot but the guy who spends hours troubleshooting something, never
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Only a complete idiot thinks capitalism maximises efficency.
Competition maximises efficiency. Perfect comeptition guarantees a pareto optimal [moneyterms.co.uk] outcome.
The problem is that the level of comeptition in the OS market, like many others is ....?
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Corporate licensing... (Score:5, Interesting)
However, having to set up an activation server, have users log back in every 180 days... is just idiotic.
If we get audited, we get screwed anyway. So why make it so difficult?
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The downside to the MAK is that you have to register with MS directly, so you'll need an internet connection after setting up the box.
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I am sad to say but just upgrading to any Linux or even Mac just isn't that simple.
Re:Corporate licensing... (Score:5, Insightful)
You also don't pay hackers to patch your ACCOUNTING SYSTEM!
I work for a software development firm. We build our own servers. We set up our own DNS, Firewalls, Phone System. Mail servers, and database servers all running Linux. We paid a company to set up the accounting system and it runs on a Windows box. Why?
Because we couldn't find a Linux accounting system that our accountant liked and none of us want to get blamed if it fails. Accounting is just too important to risk messing up. There are some new FOSS accounting stuff out that looks good but we have already bought and paid for what we have and frankly moving accounting systems is painful.
As I said IT ISN"T THAT EASY TO JUST MOVE TO LINUX. Even for a software development firm like the one I work for. Even then a good 50% of the people here are none technical and probably 90% have no Linux experience yet.
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Your right, it isn't easy. First you have to have to deal with closed mindsets. Number one reason Linux fails in deployment in business is because some Microsoft bigot has a list of excuses 1 mile long that have absolutely nothing to do with the business operations (FUD). While triping ov
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Not really. I used Linux and my office uses Linux for most of our servers and even our phone system. But your blanket statement sound like a heck of a lot more theory than practice.
For example I use Eclipse CDT for development. Now I did just get the latest version so it might have changed but under the version I used before Friday the debugger couldn't easily view the data in and STL class. You can under Visual studio. I guess
Re:Corporate licensing... (Score:4, Insightful)
Of course the other problem is frankly and I know people will hate me for saying it... Some of Microsoft's products really are very good solutions. I don't think that Outlook+Exchange+Blackberry has any FOSS equivalent for the enterprise.
OO.org is very new compared to Office.
Environmental reasons (Score:5, Funny)
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I will shortly be doing the experiment
Downgrade? (Score:1, Funny)
Re:Downgrade? (Score:5, Funny)
Yeah, they're missing an opportunity here - if they admitted it was an upgrade, they could charge for it.
Ultimate Feature (Score:2, Funny)
Nice for businesses (Score:3, Insightful)
So if MS is letting businesses do this, can the average consumer call up and say "hey I'll mail you the original CD + key, send me back an XP disc + key"
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So if you buy Vista Home or Vista Home Premium, you are stuck with them. No downgrades for you.
That's about right. (Score:2)
You *can* downgrade to XP. But you can only downgrade to *XP Professional*, and you must have purchased either Vista Ultimate or Vista Business in the first place. So if you buy Vista Home or Vista Home Premium, you are stuck with them. No downgrades for you.
That's what I've heard [slashdot.org]. Another option is to simply buy a retail copy of XP -$ouch$- but good luck getting all the drivers you need for a new laptop.
Oh the Joy of the M$ Treadmill.
Why do I like to use "$" in my messages? Because I like what s
Joe U has some off topic advice. (Score:2)
Quoting oneself is not considered researcing a reliable source of information.
Quoting Joe U is even less reputable but that's not the point. Referencing yourself is labor saving. Thanks Joe!
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Referencing yourself is lazy, unreliable and impolite.
Yeah, right. (Score:2)
An Anonymous Astroturfer advises:
Go to the manufacturer's website, find your laptop, and download the drivers.
Which sounds good, but is wrong when the Laptop and all it's non free drivers are Vista only. The point of these abusive practices is to force people to buy Vista. XP and all the software you own are going to meet the same end as w2k, 98, 95, Win31 and so on and so forth back to DOS 1.0 - dumped and wasted.
I win either way. If people buy Vista, the curbs will fill up computers that are nicer
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Great, I'm sure you'll be able to name at least 2 major OEMs who do this today.
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Take 'em at their word. They don't want to sell you an XP license. So, do what someone who needs an OS for a 486DX100 with 16MB of RAM does. Either switch to an old version of an Open Source PC Unix of some sort or just pirate the appropriate MS OS and get on with life.
There comes a point where trying to accomodate stupid becomes more of a burden than reasonable people ought to put up with.
Apology (Score:1, Funny)
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Simple? (Score:2)
University (Score:5, Informative)
When I build the image, any new models we receive have their drivers added to the image with this [vernalex.com] as part of our sysprep. We use Symantec Ghost Solution Suite 2.x (we use the DOS based DeployCenter to actually drop the image from our central imaging server to the workstations). I also have to modify the DeployCenter boot floppy (stored as an
I kinda went off topic there, however, the point is we have a MS Campus agreement for ~2000 seats (we are somewhere around 1600 to 1800, actually) for XP/Office2003/Vista/Office2007, so no matter what the computers we order come with, it's wiped and replaced with our own image (without even allowing the OEM drive to do its first boot).
The only people I see this affecting are businesses that use the machines as they come in, loading software on a one-by-one basis. It won't affect LARGE businesses (or those in the same situation as the university).
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Its not quite as bad as paying double though. The OEM licnse can be a home version which claws back a fair bit over just buying the boxes with pro and i stronly suspect that to tempt the university into a subscription based site license req
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Please tell me that edus's aren't double taxed. When you get a new computer with an unused Vista on it, the price of that computer *did not* include a Vista license, right? Otherwise you are paying twice, once for the site license, and then every time you buy a new computer, which is totally undeserved profit. /IF that's true, what i wrote above, i can see why you have "no problems". Very nice of M$ to accommodate. //If it's not, thanks for making that clear for the crowd - it'd be about honorable.
As petermgreen stated in reply to you, the license schools/edu's get (probably large businesses, as well) is an "upgrade" license, however, there is no provision of *which* version of Windows has to be installed on the machine.
In our case, we get whatever the cheapest offering is, then when we decommission the machine and send it to auction, it goes with the Windows media it came with, so we get some (if not all) of the money spent on the original license back. We recently unloaded a bunch of Dell GX240's
Summary is Wrong (Score:2, Informative)
Actually, if you read the PDF, it says this:
It's the Vista Business and Vista Ultimate vesions. Get it right, Slashdot.
Upgrade to Ubuntu (Score:3, Insightful)
Free Software means never having to tell anyone what you want to run on your computers...
Re:Upgrade to Ubuntu (Score:4, Funny)
Free Software means never having to tell anyone what you want to run on your computers...
As you have showcased, free software means telling everyone what you run on your computers!
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Vista and XP (Score:2, Insightful)
I still haven't heard a verdict (Score:2)
So are these stories about people preferring XP over Vista a substantial thing, or are they just scattered anecdotes? What is the overall picture?
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My four-year-old R40 was dying or so I thought, USB ports falling out & so I figured it was finally time to dive headfirst into the brave new world of WGA Activation and DRM. Also wanted to try out some sexy new
I *scored* a new R60 Core 2 Duo T5500 for less than $500, had XP Pro and Office 2003 preinstalled.
Well to make a long story short, XP Pro broke half our legacy
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I know... I know... I did rip it down to the mainboard (any 12 year old can) but the traces for the rear USB are like 5 microns wide. There was no way I could do it, plus I didn't have the right replacement jack.
Home Premium seems to permit this too (Score:4, Interesting)
I was bored and actually READ the licensing information (well, most of it) when I first booted my new Toshiba laptop that came with Vista Home Premium.
A section in that document specifically stated that THIS license may also be used to run a previous version of Windows, and I think it specifically stated Windows XP and Windows 2000.
I remember thinking "Well, that's nice to know," but so far have not run into any major Vista problems to worry about.
But When Users Do Decide To Upgrade... (Score:2)
Farce! (Score:5, Informative)
What the current process is - and I have a "manager's manager" (a guy somewhere in North America) on tape with this - is that you install using any legit media and a legit xp cd key.
Then, when the PC fails activation (which it will, if you've used the same key a few times), you call in, do the song and dance with the crap voice recognition system, talk to an Indian and hopefully* get an activation key.
This method will no doubt cause us problems in the future with genuine advantage, etc, but there isn't a damn thing we can do about that.
*I say hopefully because Microsoft reps don't know what the hell they are talking about and different call centers will get you different answers / route you to the wrong people. We've had a call where 2 managers were yelling at each other in Indian in a very heated argument while we sat wondering "wtf". Getting a key normally takes about 2 hours although we've got them in as little as 5 minutes after we've passed through the pointless activation voice system. The process is generally quicker now, although we dread calling. Oh... and we've gotten completely conflicting information - although MS is not supposed to generate xp keys, I've had several keys generated for me (if you bully the female Filipino csrs, they generally do stuff they apparently shouldn't)
Of course, for customer satisfaction, we've written most of this off - it totals in the thousands of dollars at this point. We've been pleading with Microsoft (we have system builder status, but we usually act as resellers) to get us a better process, because this is a waste of our time, but nothing has happened. False promises, missed deadlines, et al. OEMs were supposed to have a policy in place months ago, but as far as I know, not a single large company (from Seanix to HP to Dell and Lenovo) has the capability for their phone technicians to generate an XP cd key to solve this problem.
We're especially hit hard because we mainly deal with small businesses - usually under 75 people (we're in a fairly small town, so those businesses have slowly grown to get that "big"). If our customers were bigger, they'd use volume license agreements. As it is, they don't and we can't exactly say "fuck it" and install a corp edition w/ a wga crack which is what I've heard some of the smaller companies around here are doing.
Furthermore, I worked for Vista support for a few weeks during the rollout (if anyone wants a shitty, low paying job, head up to Sutherland in Vernon, BC) nobody knew what they were doing and we got conflicting information during training. When we were sitting on the line during the downgrade process, none of the indian csrs knew what was going on.
From what I understand from my contacts there, nothing has changed.
I'm assuming that Microsoft can reach all their outsourced call centers and provide them with the correct information (they have a centralized call logging application).
The fact is that that they have had several months and they haven't. CSRs are still giving out bad info and managers still have no idea what the hell the process is.
I don't want to say that Microsoft is intentionally making the process difficult, but I can't see any other explanation except for mass incompetence.
I know for sure that we haven't heard the good news or the new process yet... Maybe people in Canuckistan have to wait a bit for the news to filter down...
New Slashdot Story Category - Downgrade? (Score:3, Insightful)
Corporate newspeak (Score:2)
Microsoft doesn't view the popularity of user requests to downgrade from Vista to XP as a ding against Vista, Ball emphasized. In fact, at Microsoft's Worldwide Partner Conference in Denver in July, Microsoft plans to evanglize Vista to its OEM and system-builder partners, and play up Vista's momentum as proof that system vendors should get on the Vista bandwagon, Ball said.
In other words:
Q: Is the huge demand for XP at the same price as Vista an indication that there is something wrong with your new product?
A: No, we just have to show the OEMs and system builders that it's value-adding features that're scaring the end-users away.
Er, what, now?
You have invented a new business model! (Score:2)