Microsoft to Simplify Downgrades From Vista to XP

castrox writes "Microsoft has noted that many corporate users want to run XP instead of Vista. They are now simplifying the downgrade process for top OEMs. Currently, all OEMs must call Microsoft whenever a downgrade is done. After the new procedure is put into place, OEMs may submit batches of keys to Microsoft online. According to the Microsoft blog on ZDNet, the 'downgrade software' will still need to be supplied by the end user. The deal is rather perplexing — it does not seem like you can convert the license since the only eligible versions for downgrading is Ultimate and Business. The company has more details available in a pdf document online."

The downgrade installation manager...

...will probably be named:

Turbo Debuggerer

Solomon

Re:The downgrade installation manager...

Why's it called a down-grade anyway?

Seems like an up-grade or at least a non-grade to me.

Re:Not that this matters...

DX10 shaders?

Re:Perplexing?

Vista is bad enough in an office where everyone is used to XP, but the ultimate disaster for productivity is Office 2007. People who are used to previous versions of Office will be hopelessly lost. All the pulldown menus are gone, replaced by those confusing tabs. They really went out of their way to fix something that wasn't broken, creating something that is. The cost of ownership would be higher for Office 2007 than 2003 even if Microsoft was paying you to take it off their hands. The good news is that Open Office has a lot more of the look and feel people are used to, and is free.

What price do you pay for XP this way?

Because I'd bet that you'll still have the great benefit of paying the hugely inflated prices for Windows Vista (especially the ultimate version) rather than what the XP license used to cost.

Oh, the joys of working with Microsoft software.

Home users get to buy XP again.

My friends tell me that what the summary reports is accurate:

it does not seem like you can convert the license since the only eligible versions for downgrading is Ultimate and Business.

This is true for home users. Your Vista license can not be used for XP, even if you simply upgraded. When you transfer your XP license to Vista, M$ won't give it back to you with their "Please let me use my OS" validation page. So, if you make the mistake of "upgrading" XP to Vista, you will have to buy XP again if you don't like Vista. Let's just say that people have not been happy with that and hope that M$ fixes it real soon.

Business users, I'm sure, get the usual double M$ tax. They pay the M$ tax when they buy the computer and they pay it again when they buy the OS and actual software, assurance plans and other nonsense.

Re:No Choice Purchase.

I would like to point out a couple innaccuracies in your post.

First of all, corporate customers on the volume license agreement pay per full time equivilent employee, not per machine, for their licenses. This license allows them to install any office or windows pro products on all systems the company owns, provided they originally came with any version of windows from the OEM.

The license does NOT cover, however, the installation of windows XP pro, or vista business, on a computer that originally came wihth Linux (Dell's Ubuntu laptops), freeDOS, or MacOS (all apple computers). The corporate license of the OS is for the UPGRADE only to the professional version of the latest or previous release. In this case, XP or Vista.

The problems for businesses are many:
- businesses or government institutions who are on the license and don't re-image all their systems end up licensing XP pro/vista business TWICE for each employee.
- In order to not double pay, you must buy the system with a home version of windows, then image it using the corporate license to XP Pro or Vista Business. In this way, you pay minimally for the home version, then upgrade the system to pro using the corporate license.
- Many places do a hybrid method, and only double pay in some instances: they deploy large quantities of desktops or laptops at a time and order with home edition, then since they are managing them all with altiris they just stick the corporate image on them when they arrive. But they also some employees to choose which system they want to order for example, customize one specifically for them from dell.com. Then, those people always end up ordering xp pro because they don't want to have to re-load the system when they receive it from the factory. Since these people are ordering one at a time, its difficult to manage them with an automated deployment system like altiras because of increased down time and technician time.

So, its not a clear cut argument. It is definately a problem, and this complexity is 100% due to microsoft's stubbornness on the "upgrade" license (fact: you cannot purchase a MS OS volume license that is not upgrade only). MS should be more kind to their large customers and allow them to install on ALL systems, not just all MS systems. But they specifically do it on purpose as the loophole way around the DOJ lawsuit which prohibited microsoft from banning OEM's from selling non-microsoft computers. So this way, they get to have their cake, and still follow the letter of the judgement.

Re:What price do you pay for XP this way?

"Because I'd bet that you'll still have the great benefit of paying the hugely inflated prices for Windows Vista"

I'll do whatever it takes to make my business people-ready.

Baby steps.

This is a good start. Microsoft had to start somewhere in learning to be responsive to their customers.

-jcr

I'm confused

why don't corporations just install XP?

Leave it to Microsoft...

Only Microsoft can make otherwise simple activities into tortorous affairs.

Why do the companies have to tell Microsoft everytime they "downgrade" a PC from Vista to XP? Does the company receive some sort of credit for being forced to buy an OS they don't want/need?

Why can't they just buy the PCs with XP already on them without having to uninstall Vista, then re-install XP, then beg for Microsoft's forgiveness, THEN apply all the hundreds of patches - each of which also requires a reboot, and then...

Re:Leave it to Microsoft...

"Why can't they just buy the PCs with XP already on them without having to uninstall Vista, then re-install XP, then beg for Microsoft's forgiveness, THEN apply all the hundreds of patches - each of which also requires a reboot, and then..."

Companies don't do it this way, they use Windows Deployment Services (formerly RIS), and install fully patched and ready to go OS and Applications using PXE boot off the network. Total Tech time (not process time) for a complete (re)install, about 5 minutes (or less). Anyone with more than a handful of machines would benefit from WDS(RIS) setup.

Right now, when someone complains about "slow computer" or other mysterious problem, I WDS the machine and a few minutes (30-60 mins) later, a fully functioning workstation, with all the standard applications required, and none of the cruftware/crapware.

It is the only way to go, if Windows is involved.

Corporate licensing...

Is a huge reason we dread getting Vista here. Compatibility isn't too much of an issue, we have been doing preliminary testing and found a reasonable expectation with it to work with our software.

However, having to set up an activation server, have users log back in every 180 days... is just idiotic.

If we get audited, we get screwed anyway. So why make it so difficult?

Re:Corporate licensing...

Unfortunately when most of the lock in happened Linux wasn't an option. Lock in doesn't happen overnight and getting out of it also takes time. It only seems so simple to people who haven't lived through it.
Of course the other problem is frankly and I know people will hate me for saying it... Some of Microsoft's products really are very good solutions. I don't think that Outlook+Exchange+Blackberry has any FOSS equivalent for the enterprise.
OO.org is very new compared to Office.

Re:Corporate licensing...

Mono will not run all .NET applications and WINE is hit or miss. For most business computers are NOT their business. They are just a tool. They don't want to try anything. They just want it to work.
You also don't pay hackers to patch your ACCOUNTING SYSTEM!
I work for a software development firm. We build our own servers. We set up our own DNS, Firewalls, Phone System. Mail servers, and database servers all running Linux. We paid a company to set up the accounting system and it runs on a Windows box. Why?
Because we couldn't find a Linux accounting system that our accountant liked and none of us want to get blamed if it fails. Accounting is just too important to risk messing up. There are some new FOSS accounting stuff out that looks good but we have already bought and paid for what we have and frankly moving accounting systems is painful.
As I said IT ISN"T THAT EASY TO JUST MOVE TO LINUX. Even for a software development firm like the one I work for. Even then a good 50% of the people here are none technical and probably 90% have no Linux experience yet.

Environmental reasons

For environmental reasons, Microsoft should continue development and support of Windows 2000 and XP. Older machines will keep running longer and so stay out of landfills, and they could eventually give these operating systems away free to benefit the penniless basement-dwellers of the world who keep typing "F1R5T P05T" at the start of every thread.

Downgrade?

I'd consider it an upgrade.

Re:Downgrade?

I'd consider it an upgrade.

Yeah, they're missing an opportunity here - if they admitted it was an upgrade, they could charge for it.

Nice for businesses

but what about the average consumer? My uncle bought a laptop with Vista and it is HORRIBLE. I've tried a couple times to get Best Buy and Toshiba to let him downgrade but they wont. Best Buy just says they dont sell XP anymore and scoffed at me, Toshiba refuses to.

So if MS is letting businesses do this, can the average consumer call up and say "hey I'll mail you the original CD + key, send me back an XP disc + key"

Apology

When will Microsoft be issuing an apology for Vista? "Yep, Vista is a turd. Our bad."

Simple?

You can't use the word perplexing and simple to describe the same thing! A simple way to allow business PC buyers to downgrade is the OEM sells the computer with free dos (making sure the hardware is compatible with XP). There done! Microsoft does not need to get involve with the sale of the hardware. They can deal directly with the customer when it comes time to renew the licensing agreement.

University

I work for a university in the US -- this doesn't affect us one bit. No matter what the machines come with, we wipe the drive and drop our XP image to it (a lab/classroom image or a faculty image, depending on where the machine will end up).

When I build the image, any new models we receive have their drivers added to the image with this [vernalex.com] as part of our sysprep. We use Symantec Ghost Solution Suite 2.x (we use the DOS based DeployCenter to actually drop the image from our central imaging server to the workstations). I also have to modify the DeployCenter boot floppy (stored as an .img file that is called by isolinux/syslinux from the UBCD4.0 custom disk I also created) to add the .DOS driver and PCI ID string so the NIC detection works properly.

I kinda went off topic there, however, the point is we have a MS Campus agreement for ~2000 seats (we are somewhere around 1600 to 1800, actually) for XP/Office2003/Vista/Office2007, so no matter what the computers we order come with, it's wiped and replaced with our own image (without even allowing the OEM drive to do its first boot).

The only people I see this affecting are businesses that use the machines as they come in, loading software on a one-by-one basis. It won't affect LARGE businesses (or those in the same situation as the university).

Summary is Wrong

the only eligible versions for downgrading is Ultimate and Business.

Actually, if you read the PDF, it says this:

The OEM vesions of Windows Vista Business and Windows Vista Ultimate include downgrade rights

It's the Vista Business and Vista Ultimate vesions. Get it right, Slashdot.

Ding?

"Microsoft doesn't view the popularity of user requests to downgrade from Vista to XP as a ding against Vista," Ball emphasized [zdnet.com].

When his guests vomit, he probably doesn't view it a ding against the meal he's served them.

Upgrade to Ubuntu

Downgrade from Vista to XP? Naw, Upgrade to Ubuntu.

Free Software means never having to tell anyone what you want to run on your computers...

Re:Upgrade to Ubuntu

Free Software means never having to tell anyone what you want to run on your computers...

As you have showcased, free software means telling everyone what you run on your computers!

Sorry I don't understand...

Dell will still sell and pre-load XP OEM while you can buy OEM cds [ebuyer.com] from Ebuyer. Plus any large organisation worth their salt will have a multi seat agreement with Microsoft. It's not an issue for anybody if you actually think about what you're buying and what you are going to use on it.

Vista and XP

I knew Vista might be a bust when Bill Gates told John Stewart on the Daily Show that it would allow parents to more readily monitor their children's onlilne activities. If this was the best sales-point that the marketers at MS could come up with, it wasn't really offering much to the home user. Now it seems it isn't doing much for the pros either. Well, memory of Edsel has been fading, time for something more 21st Century. Phrank

I still haven't heard a verdict

So, I've posted this a few times, whenever any of these Vista fumble stories comes out, whether there is actually any type of widespread verdict about the success of Vista (on any level, I know that few people are claiming it is a great technical accomplishment), but no one has really answered yet.

So are these stories about people preferring XP over Vista a substantial thing, or are they just scattered anecdotes? What is the overall picture?

Home Premium seems to permit this too

I was bored and actually READ the licensing information (well, most of it) when I first booted my new Toshiba laptop that came with Vista Home Premium.

A section in that document specifically stated that THIS license may also be used to run a previous version of Windows, and I think it specifically stated Windows XP and Windows 2000.

I remember thinking "Well, that's nice to know," but so far have not run into any major Vista problems to worry about.

But When Users Do Decide To Upgrade...

They will be grabbing copies of Ubuntu, Fedora, OpenSuSe, or any of a myriad of operating systems superior to (and far cheaper than) Vista -or- XP.

Farce!

The Vista downgrade process is horrible beyond words and we've had cases where it would of have been cheaper to buy an oem XP than pay for our time.

What the current process is - and I have a "manager's manager" (a guy somewhere in North America) on tape with this - is that you install using any legit media and a legit xp cd key.
Then, when the PC fails activation (which it will, if you've used the same key a few times), you call in, do the song and dance with the crap voice recognition system, talk to an Indian and hopefully* get an activation key.
This method will no doubt cause us problems in the future with genuine advantage, etc, but there isn't a damn thing we can do about that.

*I say hopefully because Microsoft reps don't know what the hell they are talking about and different call centers will get you different answers / route you to the wrong people. We've had a call where 2 managers were yelling at each other in Indian in a very heated argument while we sat wondering "wtf". Getting a key normally takes about 2 hours although we've got them in as little as 5 minutes after we've passed through the pointless activation voice system. The process is generally quicker now, although we dread calling. Oh... and we've gotten completely conflicting information - although MS is not supposed to generate xp keys, I've had several keys generated for me (if you bully the female Filipino csrs, they generally do stuff they apparently shouldn't)

Of course, for customer satisfaction, we've written most of this off - it totals in the thousands of dollars at this point. We've been pleading with Microsoft (we have system builder status, but we usually act as resellers) to get us a better process, because this is a waste of our time, but nothing has happened. False promises, missed deadlines, et al. OEMs were supposed to have a policy in place months ago, but as far as I know, not a single large company (from Seanix to HP to Dell and Lenovo) has the capability for their phone technicians to generate an XP cd key to solve this problem.

We're especially hit hard because we mainly deal with small businesses - usually under 75 people (we're in a fairly small town, so those businesses have slowly grown to get that "big"). If our customers were bigger, they'd use volume license agreements. As it is, they don't and we can't exactly say "fuck it" and install a corp edition w/ a wga crack which is what I've heard some of the smaller companies around here are doing.

Furthermore, I worked for Vista support for a few weeks during the rollout (if anyone wants a shitty, low paying job, head up to Sutherland in Vernon, BC) nobody knew what they were doing and we got conflicting information during training. When we were sitting on the line during the downgrade process, none of the indian csrs knew what was going on.
From what I understand from my contacts there, nothing has changed.

I'm assuming that Microsoft can reach all their outsourced call centers and provide them with the correct information (they have a centralized call logging application).
The fact is that that they have had several months and they haven't. CSRs are still giving out bad info and managers still have no idea what the hell the process is.
I don't want to say that Microsoft is intentionally making the process difficult, but I can't see any other explanation except for mass incompetence.
I know for sure that we haven't heard the good news or the new process yet... Maybe people in Canuckistan have to wait a bit for the news to filter down...

New Slashdot Story Category - Downgrade?

I propose that Slashdot add a category for 'downgrade'. They have one for 'upgrade' so why not 'downgrade'?

Need to donwgrade for Vista in spanish

This funny thing happened to me the other day: one of my custumers had bought her new PC in the US, as she came back here, she realised she doesn't speak english good enough, and wanted to use an spanish tranlation (she used Windows Vista Home Basic). So, I called MS support: you cannot change your Vista english license for a new one in spanish, you need to upgrade to Windows Vista Ultimate (which has international support). Since in my country, upgrading for the "full" Ultimate version is more expensive than just buying a new Hombe Basic license, and since by installing a new Home Basic spanish version would destroy all of her settings, she instead installed her own copy of Win XP. I can't tell if it's a legal copy thought, or maybe an OEM version. Anyways, kiss my ass M$, you deserve to be peed upon.

Corporate newspeak

I found this buried in the article:

Microsoft doesn't view the popularity of user requests to downgrade from Vista to XP as a ding against Vista, Ball emphasized. In fact, at Microsoft's Worldwide Partner Conference in Denver in July, Microsoft plans to evanglize Vista to its OEM and system-builder partners, and play up Vista's momentum as proof that system vendors should get on the Vista bandwagon, Ball said.

In other words:
Q: Is the huge demand for XP at the same price as Vista an indication that there is something wrong with your new product?
A: No, we just have to show the OEMs and system builders that it's value-adding features that're scaring the end-users away.

Er, what, now?

Lucky me

There's only one Lappy that came with Vista. Luckily I had a spare XP license to go with it (yeah we run a very small business :P).

You have invented a new business model!

Congratulations. May I recommend you call it something like "software insurance"?

Re:I have a better idea

Even if you pirate it, you do them a nice favor. The more people grow up strongly accustomed to their operating system, the more paying customers they have when these people found businesses later and deploy Windows because that's all they know.