Is Vista a Trap? 559
logube writes "BBC has up an article about the trap of installing Vista in your existing desktop. Written by Tim Weber, a self-confessed 'sucker for technology,' this article is a good introduction to the pain and extra money required to get going with the newest version of Windows. See how you can spend an extra 130 british pounds, and still have no working webcam! Says Weber, 'It took me one day to get online. The detail is tedious and highly technical: reinstalling drivers and router firmware didn't work, but after many trial and error tweaks to Vista's TCP/IP settings, I had internet access. Once online, Creative's website told me that my sound card was a write-off. No Vista support would be forthcoming.'"
this was expected (Score:3, Insightful)
also, by that logic, linux is a trap
Re:this was expected (Score:5, Funny)
At least you get the satisfaction of spending a whole day (or more) putting the elaborate, Rube Goldberg-esque trap together yourself first.
=Smidge=
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I'd assume that's what the AC is talking about, but hey, that's just me.
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It must be a conspiracy!
Will you people stop acting so surprised that they don't make drivers for excesively old hardware? There's NO MONEY in that, so there's consequently NO DRIVERS. Does the article poster want to pay Creative to develop new drivers?
Creative can't support everything, and they're always going to piss off someone. Just be happy they've delivered support for the Live! over S
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Frawless Victoly! (Score:5, Funny)
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Focus your fire on that unsupported hardware!
I have often heard: "The nice thing about Windows all drivers built-in/easily available so that it just works as opposed to Linux where you have to write your own drivers in some cases to get by?" Apparently, this is not true anymore... You should start writing your own drivers for Vista... but wait where is my Vista compatible compiler?
By the way I am suffering day-to-day on a debian box in my office only because I don't have enough privileges to upgrade the kernel... I can feel your pain Vista users.
No mention of DRM (Score:2, Insightful)
I know I am a minority, but for me Fair Use is a big issue. Sadly, Vista has completely opened the doors to DRM on the desktop. Well, not on mine.
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There, i corrected it for you. Its just like iTunes. Apple doesn't want DRM (see recent articles), but in order to get the music industry to agree to sell music online, it is a necessary evil.
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Your "correction" is also wrong in another way: it's not just the music industry that has a stake in Vista's DRM - the movie industry is just as, if not more, interested in that "feature" of Vista.
Because it didn't affect him? (Score:3, Insightful)
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Memories. (Score:3, Insightful)
If it doesn't affect you, not likely to make it in to a "thing that didn't work for me" article, is it?
Reading that article brought back memories of Windows 98 and NT4. Like many other people at the time I was irritated by the instability of 98 and decided to install NT4 because I had heard it was more stable than 'old bluescreen'. I quickly found out that while the stability definitely was a lot better under NT4 (at least it was on my mini tower, other people's milage may have varied) there weren't any NT4 drivers for half the other stuff I had bought including my scanner, printer, modem and network card
Re:No mention of DRM (Score:4, Informative)
Tag (Score:4, Funny)
Why do I get the feeling this was posted solely to let people use "itsatrap" as a tag?
My Vista Install (Score:5, Informative)
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Linux was pretty easy for me. Except I had to edit some config files in vi to toggle hardware mouse cursors because my cursor was invisible on install. Getting the proper nVidia drivers was a bitch for me though, mostly because I'm not very experienced with Linux and I couldn't seem to find any documentation about how to get a bash shell without x running.
This was Fedora Core 5. But then again I'm pretty unlucky with Linux installs, so that wasn't a big deal for
Re:My Vista Install (Score:5, Insightful)
The simple truth is that right now most people will get zero benefit from Vista. And for some people they will actually loose functionality that they currently have.
throwing up my hands (Score:4, Interesting)
'get new hardware'. I have a better idea. Let's call Vista not an upgrade but a wholesale replacement of your computer and many of your applications. Most of your data will work in the new system but that's about it.
No - Vista is barely less of an upgrade than switching from XP to a Mac.
Re:throwing up my hands (Score:5, Funny)
Re:throwing up my hands (Score:5, Informative)
It used to be that if you wanted all of your hardware to work, you ran Windows. Looks like the tables have turned.
Re:throwing up my hands (Score:5, Insightful)
Except, certain things in Vista still work better than under (say) Ubuntu, or a lot of other Linux distributions.
Like, say, 802.11 configuration.
Or perhaps, volume controls. I've given up on getting a proper working fucking volume control on my SB Live-equipped Ubuntu desktop machine.
Or Bluetooth. Such pain and trauma to configure a Bluetooth mouse with Linux, but it was straight-forward with Vista.
Or video drivers. Neither Vista nor XP has ever trashed my video drivers with an automatic update. Meanwhile, every time Ubuntu switches to a new nvidia-legacy driver, my desktop machine needs to be tickled again before X will work. (I know - I should just stick with the free nv driver, since there's no fucking games for Linux to make 3D worth caring about, anyway. But I like xscreensaver's GL hacks.)
Vista's not perfect, though. It killed support for DirectSound3D and EAX, making games less enjoyable to play (for me, anyway). However, EAX never worked at all in Linux, so I guess I don't feel "trapped" anymore than I do with Linux.
Re:throwing up my hands (Score:5, Informative)
802.11 works fine for me. Try network-manager/knetworkmanager. All clicky-clicky, and even better than XP's network support IMHO
Volume controls? You mean like the Fn+F6/F7 on my laptop that actually change the volume of my machine? Automatically, with no configuration, in Linux, on my laptop?
Bluetooth seems to work fine for me, too.
Video drives, I just did apt-get install nvidia-glx, and they've worked since then. With Beryl, I get 3D screensavers, everything I could want.
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Volume controls: No, not at all like the hardware volume control on your laptop, which will
Re:throwing up my hands (Score:5, Interesting)
Which is why I'd like to use the volume control on the Ubuntu desktop or taskbar or whatever-it-is. I think it may have worked at one point, but updates to something-or-other broke it. My situation is almost certainly complicated somewhat by the fact that I'm using the card's digital output for all audio, but that doesn't seem to present any particular complication to Certain Other operating systems.
But it doesn't matter, really. I gave up on it long ago. I've lost enough hours to making desktop Linux work completely, only to have largely unwanted software updates hose up the whole thing.
I don't even bother trying to run Linux on my laptop bare-metal anymore (the first time I closed the lid and the backlight stupidly stayed on, I could see where things were headed) though I do have a pretty functional install of Ubuntu working on VMWare under Vista.
And I'm not about to abandon my Gentoo mail and off-site backup servers for anything. But desktop Linux pretty much blows, these days.
I had a more consistant Linux desktop with Slackware and FVWM2, over a decade ago. One used to configure things, and they stayed configured: I used to tell people that the coolest part about Linux was that sometimes it was hard to make something work, but once you finally figured it out it would stay working indefinately.
But that's not the case anymore. It shames me to say that Windows is less of a moving target than a typical Linux desktop.
And all I wanted was a volume control.
Re:throwing up my hands (Score:5, Informative)
Sure, so what hardware and software did you have to replace?
Amount I've had to spend in addition to purchasing Vista: $0. I built my AMD Athlon 2700+, 1 GB RAM, Radeon 9800 Pro in 2003 (hardly new). All my software and scenarios work, including:
I'd love to hear other people's experiences, but please include details.
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Everyone sitting comfortably?
The BBC author concludes the same thing, and that's what sucks. He says to wait and get Vista pre-installed. Doing that won't fix his webcam or his pocket PC.
No, but you missed the point. He says Vista isn't worth it for him right now, but will be if he upgrades. Revel in the small victory that may offer you, but don't misinterpret it. Regardless, support will come and soon, if he's willing to wait and he chose a good manufacturer
Bastards (Score:5, Funny)
never be the first to buy (Score:2)
And this is news how? (Score:5, Informative)
2000 -> XP still problems with lack of drivers for older hardware (although maybe not as many)
XP -> Vista well, what do you think?
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There is also the issue of trying to run a new OS. Certainly, no one th
How much is too much? (Score:2, Informative)
That being said, there seems to have been a huge jump in paradigm from XP to Vista. Even though I know I'll be modded down for this, I like XP. I've installed the operating system wit
See? Even Windows Users Benefit from Open Specs (Score:4, Interesting)
Interesting! Does this mean that we might start seeing Windows customers agitating for open hardware specs so that interested parties can pick up the ball dropped by the vendor and write their own drivers?
...Just like the Linux guys have been doing for the last <*cough*> years?
Oh, wait. You have to be "certified" by Microsoft to write a usable Vista driver. Never mind...
Schwab
Stop the FUD! (Score:3, Informative)
About being certified by MS...I'm not sure where you are getting your information from, but it is wrong.
Want to develop drivers for Vista, Server 2003, XP, W2k, and possibly older MS platforms? Hit the download button from here http://www.microsoft.com/whdc/devtools/ddk/default .mspx/ [microsoft.com].
Want a kernel debugger and access to the O/S symbol files? Try here http://www.microsoft.com/whdc/devtools/debugging/d efault.mspx [microsoft.com].
Need some know-how on passing the Windows logo requirements? Try here http://www.microsof [microsoft.com]
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You are a hateful M$ shill. Unsupplied hardware drivers are the manufacturer's fault only if you are talking about Linux. Otherwise, it is M$'s fault. Unless, of course, you are talking about Apple. Then, the pre-approved hardware only aspect is a glorious thing brought down from the mountain by the apostle Jobs. All else are heathens who shall burn in hell.
You are trying to stop the spread of linux and apple. You are a bad person. You eat babi
Router fimware??? WTF? (Score:2, Insightful)
The trap is this guy's stupidity (Score:2, Informative)
Frankly on a lot talk on this drivers issue is from people talking out of bopth sides of their mouth. People who blame the hardware manufacturers for a lack of Linux support seem to be the ones to blame MS
Vista is great! (in a way) (Score:4, Interesting)
But it means a good load of ebay bargains for those of us running open source operating systems with support for just about everything built in.
I haven't actually noticed the bargains happening much yet, but they will come. Just like last time shortly after Windows XP came out. Second hand USB stuff was going for next to nothing on ebay.
wait a minute... (Score:4, Funny)
I feel your pain (Score:5, Funny)
So, what you're saying it's kind of like installing an oddball wi-fi card on Linux. Except without the option of reading hundreds of pages of obscure documentation until you've transformed yourself into a mutant linux hotplugging guru.
In a nutshell, the differnce between getting things working in Linux and Windows seems to be this. Linux is like being parachuted into the wilderness with a hammer, forge, and load of pig iron. Windows is like being parachuted into the wilderness with an impressive looking knife that snaps in two if you don't use it very, very carefully.
For Non-Geeks (Score:3, Insightful)
- wait at least one year after a new release of operating system
- if you can't do it yourself, pay someone else to evaluate your existing pc to see if an upgrade is possible and if it is possible, to make sure you get exactly what you need
- make sure the person you pay for evaluation has no stake in selling you a new pc
- if an upgrade is not possible, secure your old system as much as humanly possible and ride it until using the old system is no longer possible, plausible or just plain insane (like one of my friends using Windows 95 until last week and my cousin switched her over to Ubuntu)
- when all else dies by a new pc
- find something useful to do with your old pc (donate it, etc.)
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IT'S A TRAP (Score:3, Funny)
PEBKAC? (Score:5, Informative)
From the article:Uhm, no it isn't, not really. As the author later discovers (but still doesn't realize), getting hardware to work often involves hardware, drivers and OS (and sometimes other software). While we all wish it were that easy, us "expensive PC helpers" have the skills to deal with those cases when it isn't.
For example:Wizards? This suggests that the author does not know how to get to the properties of whatever network protocol (I'm assuming TCP/IP) he's using and configure them directly.You can find out by following the instructions at
http://support.microsoft.com/kb/298837 [microsoft.com].
I'm not defending Vista, but I also bristle when people devalue and disrespect people in IT/IS. We make things look easy because we're good at what we do.
Here's my appraoch to new Windows versions (Score:3)
2. Wait for SP2
N. Wait for SPN
N+1. New version of Windows, GOTO 1
Wonder if that GOTO will give any of the old timers nostalgia attacks
Life imitates tags (Score:3, Funny)
...not so good (Score:3, Interesting)
Product upgrade or Software upgrade? (Score:3, Interesting)
That old hardware was fine for running some stuff. An upgrade to just the software leaves the system in an unstable state with not all features hardware or software supported in most cases. Most of my systems are running the original OS on them with the exceptions where the usefullness of the new applications outweighed the loss of the old applications. For example, upgrading from Windows 98 and 2K to Ubuntu is a great move. I lose the upgrade patch cycle, endless security upgrades and AV upgrades and instead get a stable machine for web applications.
I still have my Windows 95 laptop. It is useless for online use and is a sitting duck. It still makes a great MIDI workstation sitting on my synth. It has no USB. It is at it's maximum capacity of EDO memory at 72 Megs. Upgrading the software would be a bad mistake.
More modern hardware gets Linux upgrades. It is relatively pain free. It provides stability and security with lots of new features. I don't have to spend a lot of money to find out if it won't work and needs a hardware upgrade to get it going. Too bad Vista does not have a free Live CD for testing old hardware.
I'll get a new purchased OS when it comes on the new hardware. Then it is up to the vendor to make sure everything is working and compatible. It saves a lot of headaches. I have not seen any reason to spend the money at this time.
Re:Does Vista have anything we need? (Score:5, Informative)
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Eventually. But when 5 years from now?
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Re:Does Vista have anything we need? (Score:4, Informative)
For example, I installed the Beta Nvidia drivers, which while giving me over all worse performance because of a lack of SLI support, did actually give a demonstrable and perceptible performance boost (as promised), even though the drivers were not file.
DirectX 10 is the thing that's likely to get me to upgrade again to it, hopefully by the time it's 'mainstream' a service pack or two will be out.
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With Vista, MS gives us another reason to turn towards consoles as a smarter choice. It's currently an unnecessary upgrade that wraps your media in s
Re:Does Vista have anything we need? (Score:4, Informative)
Re:Does Vista have anything we need? (Score:4, Insightful)
Fuck that! Why would I want to replace my nice, general-purpose, hackable PC with DRM-infested proprietary crap?
(Note: I'm not going to be playing games on Vista, either.)
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Re:Does Vista have anything we need? (Score:5, Insightful)
Re:Does Vista have anything we need? (Score:5, Insightful)
Re:Does Vista have anything we need? (Score:4, Insightful)
Game companies arent stupid. They know people are trying other OS's.
Google, id software, Epic and others have moved accordingly.
I'm betting that other companies are considering it.
Re:Does Vista have anything we need? (Score:5, Insightful)
Examples given tended to be along the lines of "I can't watch foreign released films, they were never released locally so I have no legal option, and I need this for my book report." and "You shouldn't have to pay for that song again, you already paid for it."
These are, quite frankly, not the most pressing examples I could think of.
Here's some examples you can show your mom and dad:
1) Broadcast news will be all be digitally signed by the big media companies.
The same technology used to cause your saved version of American Idol to self-destruct can be used after the fact to erase news right off your home electronics. It will also prevent it from being transferred to unprotected permanent media, or played back from any backup.
2) Medical software and data will all be digitally signed by the rights owners.
The same technology used to stop software piracy could be used after the fact to switch off hospitals and clinics that don't pay their bills. There is massive financial incentive to design this to happen automatically. Anyone who doubts the realism of this scenario need only look as far as the behavior of the existing drug companies.
3) Company files will all be digitally signed.
If you are being screwed over by your employer or any company you have business dealings with, they will be able to ensure that you don't make anyone else aware of it.
Anyone who thinks this technology is about protecting Britney Spears from Bluebeard the Pirate is missing the point. This is about totalitarianism.
Re:Does Vista have anything we need? (Score:4, Interesting)
Nuff Said.
David Wheeler has got it all in a screenful. Why it doesn't do the content-providers any good, why it doesn't do the "consumer" any good, and why it's all a waste of time anyway.
All written in clear English.
One quote from the article: "I do not approve of piracy. I don't approve of murder, either, yet I approve of the sale of steak knives and cleaning supplies... and would oppose trying to halt their sales."
Re:Does Vista have anything we need? (Score:4, Funny)
(sorry - couldn't resist)
Re:Does Vista have anything we need? (Score:4, Interesting)
Conditioned Response (Score:5, Insightful)
"You are about to open the Control Panel -- allow or deny?"
"You are about to open the Program Files folder -- allow or deny?"
"You are about to modify user preferences -- allow or deny?
"You are about to open attachment pzxyTrojan.exe -- allow or deny?"
Allow.. allow.. allow.. allow.. allow..
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All lies; you'v
Worse than XP (for now) (Score:5, Insightful)
And we say exactly the same thing we've always said: "Bloated, incompatible, too invasive, look at that WGA!" XP has the same privacy issues, 2000 had worse (if possible) compatibility issues.
But around SP1 or SP2, XP became livable, arguably better than 2000. And probably around SP1, 2000 became stable enough, and was obviously a HUGE upgrade compared to 98 -- so huge that if they hadn't done it when they did, Linux probably would've taken over.
So, we're going to have the same thing happen here. I predict that in roughly 2 years, around SP1 or SP2, Vista will actually be better than XP. But it isn't yet -- too much stuff isn't compatible, and the "beta" was a laugh; if you buy it now, you are their gamma testers.
Smart people stick with XP, and let the rest of the world test and debug Vista for us.
Me? I'll keep dual-booting XP and Linux (Ubuntu here, Gentoo at home).
Re:Does Vista have anything we need? (Score:5, Insightful)
I have used Vista, I do not like it, it's intrusive and annoying to me (yes I do want to run that exe), I personally don't care about eye candy, I am into performance which vista does not have unless you are running a state of the art proc, 4 gig's of RAM and a high end graphics card (which none have decent drivers as of yet)
I'm not going to get into the DRM portion of Vista.
You're a sucker to buy it and a fool to run it.
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Awesome, welcome to 1975! You must be a really proud owner of a modern, prior art ripping operating system.
Re:Does Vista have anything we need? (Score:4, Insightful)
So, it sounds like when they are done reimplementing UNIX, they might just have a fine operating system.
Re:Does Vista have anything we need? (Score:4, Informative)
Please stop trolling (Score:2)
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I run Ubuntu on my desktop at home -- it's an Athlon XP 2200+ or thereabouts, 512mb ram, 128mb nvidia card. It's really old and I keep thinking I ought to upgrade it, but the fact is, it runs just fine. Even Beryl and all the eye candy is silky smooth. The hardware mentioned in the article to me, sounds like a decent machine
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What does any of that have to do with the problems he had? Oh, that's right, next to nothing. If you read the article it said that once he had things running it was nice but Vista still had a ton of problems. The only thing on that list that caused him problems was the SB Live which caused three "unidentified hardware" type errors. A search showed him that the card would never work under Vista (no drivers planned) so he got a new one. The graphics card he upgraded before the install because he knew that it
Re:A Trap for Idiots (Score:5, Interesting)
Considering that Microsoft says a 1 GHz PC with 512 MB RAM will run Vista, he probably expected a working system.
I think Vista uses more RAM to display a window than my OS/2 Warp system used to run half a dozen apps (I had 8 MB of RAM on an AMD 486/40).
Re:A Trap for Idiots (Score:5, Interesting)
For comparison: I have an Apple iMac G3 400MHz with 768MB RAM and a 40GB disk happily running OS X 10.4. This machine also has a (nonupgradeable) 8MB ATI video card. Note that this computer, at this moment, is almost 8 years old, and runs Tiger like a champ. Sure, I don't get all the cool effects, but the key is I didn't have to do a damn thing to make it work, it just did, and it doesn't even attempt the effects it can't handle. I can browse the internet, use iTunes, type in Word, Excel, Pages or Keynote, check my email, and even watch DVD's. And you know what? It runs 10.4 FASTER than it runs 10.3. Given, it's still a bit slower than OS 9, but given the added capabilities of it and it still being useable in OS X, that's a pretty damn good trade-off.
Re:A Trap for Idiots (Score:5, Informative)
Sheesh.
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What kind of 3rd party apps are you looking for? I haven't found Linux lacking in this regard, but then again I'm mostly using it as a server.
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Re:Starting to annoy... (Score:5, Informative)
Gwenview [sourceforge.net], Picasa [google.com]...
Is in production [berlios.de]. Check the CVS [berlios.de] for latest builds.
I really don't understand why you included this. OpenOffice.org [openoffice.org], KOffice [koffice.org], AbiWord [abisource.com]; all more than comparable to MS Word.
In Debian based distros, sudo apt-get install msttcorefonts. Rather simple. Other distros have packages of their own.
In short, I'm under the impression that you haven't really tried to use a modern Linux distro for more than the five minutes it took you to stereotype it, say, "This sucks because it's not what I'm used to!", and go back to Windows.
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So stop lying just so you can insult people. Perhaps slashdot needs a "-10 Blatent Liar" mod option.
Re:No. (Score:5, Insightful)
Microsoft isn't completely blameless here. If Microsoft had adopted the same strategy for drivers as the OpenBSD project has (accepting either fully open drivers or no drivers), then somebody (even Microsoft) could make the drivers work on Vista.
This is yet another why open drivers built from publicly-available hardware documentation are better than binary-blob drivers.
Re:No. (Score:4, Insightful)
Sorry, but there is just NO way Microsoft could ever enforce that policy. Stop blaming Microsoft for corporations wanting to keep their drivers secret so that their competitors don't use them to improve their OWN drivers.
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Actually, it was a joke. If I was trolling, I would have used my "troll account."
The shift key seems to be sticking on your keyboard. I'm guessing Slashdot isn't the only site you've visited today.
Sounds like someone needs to switch to decaf.
Re:No. (Score:4, Insightful)
Pot. Kettle. Black. Microsoft isn't going to force vendors to open source their drivers when they so closely guard their own code. What's good for the gander is good for the goose and all that.
You're point is well taken however. I don't see why hardware vendors don't release their source code. They can patent the hardware if it truly contains innovations and with software patents they could patent all or part of the driver if it's anything special and release the code under whatever license they deem appropriate.
If I was evaluating two pieces of expensive hardware that performed equally well I'd take the piece with open source drivers over the piece that didn't have open source drivers even if it cost more just for insurance on the investment. You'd think that having open source drivers would be a point that high end hardware manufacturers, especially new ones, could compete on.
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I don't see why hardware vendors don't release their source code. They can patent the hardware if it truly contains innovations and with software patents they could patent all or part of the driver if it's anything special
They're afraid that their competitors will learn what they're doing. If they've (let's say) implemented their vector lists using red-black tries or some other common data structure that isn't patentable, then that might give their competitors insight into some aspect of driver writing that they wouldn't have considered. Or take the example of a "unified driver" that appears to be designed to support some unannounced functions ("Hmmm, I wonder why they're storing the GPU context in an eight-entry table, i
Not really (Score:5, Insightful)
Remember, Vista is purported to be somewhat of an upgrade/improvement over XP. That means that people expect it to do what XP does, and more. It's still MS windows, just a newer, shinier, bulkier ones.
So if your winmodem worked in 2.4.x and not in 2.6.x, you might have a legitimate gripe at linux. Generally such things come out in the next-version bugfixes, but issues do happen where a particular newer version does not like certain hardware, or the source-code for modules doesn't compile and no newer-version source is available. If there never was support for your winmodem in the first place (note, WINmodem is a good giveway that it's not non-windows friendly), then the blame rests somewhat on the manufacturer for not providing a driver, or at least specs for such. In the case of winmodems, the software pretty much is most of the product, so the manufacturers guard it fairly closely.
Re:MOD Article Author Retard... (Score:4, Informative)
Re:MOD Post Author Retard... (Score:4, Informative)
If you RTFA, you'll see that he a) used a Microsoft app that checks your system for Vista compatibility before installing; b) replaced his incompatible hardware before the install with hardware stated to work with Vista by the manufacturer.
Short of having someone lend him the hardware to try it out with Vista, I don't really see what else he could have done to avoid problems...
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Not only do you not read the article, it seems you don't read people's posts either. Why do you bother then?
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I've bought Mac hardware. I dual boot Linux and XP on PC hardware. Kindly, I'll not get over Microsoft's habit of writing terrible software for the benefit of ending a debate that you began. Vista is software designed to sell PC's. It was not designed with the consumer's needs in mind, and there's no reason it needed to be. It's because of t
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It doesn't matter whose fault it is, Linux^H^H^H^H^HVista or the hardware vendor, the fact of the matter is that people expect their computers to "Just Work"(tm). All my grandma is going to know is that under Linux^H^H^H^H^HVista, her sound card doesn't
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