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Microsoft's Vista AV Fails Certification

Posted by kdawson on Tue Feb 06, 2007 10:43 PM
from the black-eye dept.
An anonymous reader writes "Microsoft's much-hyped anti-virus solution, Live OneCare and three other Vista AV products failed to achieve the Virus Bulletin's VB100 certification. The other products are McAfee's VirusScan Enterprise, G DATA's AntiVirusKit 2007, and Norman's VirusControl. All failed to pass a series of tests that are required to display the VB100 badge. 'With the number of delays that we've seen in Vista's release, there's no excuse for security vendors not to have got their products right by now,' said John Hawes, technical consultant at Virus Bulletin."
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  • excuses... (Score:5, Interesting)

    by solstice680 (938214) on Tuesday February 06 2007, @10:46PM (#17916210)
    What about "We didn't have access to Vista's internals until two months ago?"

    That would be a good excuse for most security vendors...
    • Re:excuses... by ZachPruckowski (Score:2) Tuesday February 06 2007, @10:55PM
    • Re:excuses... (Score:5, Informative)

      by ThinkFr33ly (902481) on Tuesday February 06 2007, @10:59PM (#17916326)
      Actually, the details on implementing anti-virus for Vista, and other low level filters, have been available for well over a year. Some documentation has been avilable for more than 2 years.

      That's how companies like Kaspersky and AVG came out with fully Vista compliant versions of their software months ago. Software which works extremely well, by the way. (Kaspersky passed this test. It says so right in the article.)
      [ Parent ]
      • Re:excuses... by PitaBred (Score:2) Wednesday February 07 2007, @01:17PM
      • 2 replies beneath your current threshold.
  • Hello Symantec... (Score:1, Flamebait)

    Hello Symantec... I'd never trust the OS manufacturer to be responsible for its security anyone, but even less so considering MS's reputation for security...
    • Re:Hello Symantec... by L4m3rthanyou (Score:1) Wednesday February 07 2007, @12:38AM
      • Re:Hello Symantec... by Stewie241 (Score:1) Wednesday February 07 2007, @01:10AM
      • Re:Hello Symantec... (Score:5, Insightful)

        by BCoates (512464) on Wednesday February 07 2007, @01:51AM (#17917442)
        ... Symantec and McAffee to get their shit together and make an antivirus that doesn't suck.

        I'm not sure such a thing is even possible anymore. The usefulness of AV software has always been pretty questionable, and they never seem to have gotten over the threat model of months or years-old viruses being passed from floppy to floppy. Most threats are one-off now, like social engineering spam, one-day long trojan horse attacks, adware, and exploiting OS vulnerabilities to run spam zombies. As far as I can tell, my resource-hogging, system-destabilizing virus scanner does effectively nothing against any of those and there's no reason to believe it can be changed to do so.
        [ Parent ]
        • Re:Hello Symantec... (Score:4, Insightful)

          by Kazoo the Clown (644526) on Wednesday February 07 2007, @01:23PM (#17923634)

          As far as I can tell, my resource-hogging, system-destabilizing virus scanner does effectively nothing against any of those and there's no reason to believe it can be changed to do so.


          ABSOLUTELY. I gave up on AV programs some time ago. A good firewall, firewall-like execution protection such as Process Guard, not using the most popular email programs or web browsers, and severely restricting web-based application execution (i.e., boycott ActiveX and hamstring Java and Javascript) are far more effective techniques for tripping up a virus as such attacks will almost always try to 1) exploit networking applications most common to the OS, 2) try to run some kind of executable that you haven't run before, and/or 3) attempt some kind of network operation in order to propagate itself. Trying to recognize virus signatures is a lousy use of CPU resources, and has not been seen to be very effective.


          AV software companies are addicted to the subscription model that signature-based AV provides, and consequently are in a serious conflict-of-interest with regards to best security practices. Symantec in particular seems to be short of ideas for an alternative business model, and have opted instead to whine like a six-year-old who's mommy won't let them buy candy at the checkstand.

          [ Parent ]
        • 1 reply beneath your current threshold.
      • Re:Hello Symantec... by Magada (Score:1) Wednesday February 07 2007, @07:28AM
  • bad logic (Score:1, Flamebait)

    by dave420 (699308) on Tuesday February 06 2007, @10:50PM (#17916252)
    So delays mean they should have AV wrapped up? That is a completely baseless statement. What if they were working on that right up until the launch? It doesn't excuse the AV situation, but it would mean his statement is bullshit. I'm all for activism, but straight-up being a little girl about it doesn't help.
    • Re:bad logic by The Ham of Truth (Score:2) Wednesday February 07 2007, @01:04AM
      • Re:bad logic by Matt Edd (Score:1) Wednesday February 07 2007, @01:19AM
        • Re:bad logic by The Ham of Truth (Score:1) Wednesday February 07 2007, @12:25PM
  • by mrchaotica (681592) * <<mrchaotica> <at> <yahoo.com>> on Tuesday February 06 2007, @10:52PM (#17916272)

    Maybe the ClamAV [clamav.net] people ought to submit their program for testing.

  • A very good excuse... (Score:5, Interesting)

    by bhirsch (785803) on Tuesday February 06 2007, @10:53PM (#17916282)
    (http://www.benhirsch.name/)
    A VB100 badge means little or nothing to these companies, much less their consumers.
  • Nothing to do with Vista (Score:5, Interesting)

    by ThinkFr33ly (902481) on Tuesday February 06 2007, @10:56PM (#17916302)
    This has nothing to do with Vista, and everything to do with crappy anti-virus products. Neither OneCare or McAfee for XP have ever tested well, so why would anybody think that they would test well on Vista?

    If you read the entire article, you'll notice a little blurb at the end that several vendors passed the test, one of which was Kaspersky [kaspersky.com]. Another excellent vendor for Vista is AVG [grisoft.com].

    Kaspersky consistantly beats [cybernetnews.com] all the other major anti-virus vendors, but I guess the story wouldn't be quite as Slashdot-worthy if it ready "Kaspersky Anti-Virus on Vista Works Great!".
  • Hate to say it (Score:1)

    by Stochastism (1040102) on Tuesday February 06 2007, @10:57PM (#17916308)
    (Last Journal: Tuesday July 03, @01:04AM)
    I hate to say it, but Microsoft were right for once in their earlier VISTA policy of locking down the practice of hooking into the kernel. It's that feature in XP that allows malware to flourish. Just because MS made mistakes years ago that spawned an entire industry (the anti-virus industry), doesn't mean that industry necessarily has the right to continue to exist in its current form.
    • Re:Hate to say it by Creepy Crawler (Score:3) Tuesday February 06 2007, @11:17PM
      • Re:Hate to say it by Stochastism (Score:1) Tuesday February 06 2007, @11:31PM
      • Re:Hate to say it (Score:5, Insightful)

        by the_womble (580291) on Wednesday February 07 2007, @01:41AM (#17917392)
        (http://pietersz.co.uk/ | Last Journal: Wednesday May 04 2005, @05:22AM)
        What do you think is bad: Trashing the whole system, or trashing your ~ ? A system can be reinstalled, but most people dont back up their data.

        If we talking about trashing the system instead of trashing ~, you would be right in the case of a single user system.

        However, we are talking about trashing everything, against trashing just ~. Obviously just ~ is better.

        In the case of a multi-user system, trashing one users ~ is much better than trashing everything. Most home PCs are multi users. Office PCs are invariably single user, but they should get backed up.

        It is much easier to back up a single user's directory than an entire system.

        Finally, limited access to the system makes it harder for viruses to propagate. How is it going to run again after a log out? Most people do not regularly run executables from their own directories: the executables they do run will not be infected. Certainly something like bash_profile or an autostart directory, but cleaning these up should be trivial. Am I missing anything here?

        [ Parent ]
      • Re:Hate to say it by drsmithy (Score:2) Wednesday February 07 2007, @03:15AM
      • Re:Hate to say it by vadim_t (Score:2) Wednesday February 07 2007, @06:41AM
      • Re:Hate to say it by Creepy Crawler (Score:1) Tuesday February 06 2007, @11:56PM
      • 1 reply beneath your current threshold.
    • Re:Hate to say it by Magada (Score:1) Wednesday February 07 2007, @07:32AM
  • OH NO, NO VB100??!? (Score:5, Funny)

    by madsheep (984404) on Tuesday February 06 2007, @11:00PM (#17916332)
    (http://www.securityzone.org/)
    I heard they also didn't earn the WTF200 or the LOL500. Based on failing to get the three of these certifcations and seeing how all three of them are as equally popular..this software will surely be going no where.
  • Great Sales Pitch (Score:3, Informative)

    by Zonnald (182951) on Tuesday February 06 2007, @11:01PM (#17916340)
    Tried to follow the links to the report to see what the fuss was about. First I was told I had to register for Free. I did that then clicked on the report - only to be told I had to subscribe. Not going to happen.

    For obvious reasons I will leave it to the reader to decide if they want to go and have a look, no links will be provided.

  • by solitu (1045848) on Tuesday February 06 2007, @11:02PM (#17916342)
    Vista doesn't come with a antivirus program.
    Live OneCare, Mcafee are not specific Vista -- You can install them on XP too.

    And 99.99% detection rate is nothing to be sneered at.
  • Remind me.... (Score:1, Troll)

    by edwardpickman (965122) on Tuesday February 06 2007, @11:04PM (#17916366)
    why am I supposed to upgrade to Vista?
  • *What* VirusControl? (Score:5, Insightful)

    by SeaFox (739806) on Tuesday February 06 2007, @11:06PM (#17916380)

    The other products are McAfee's VirusScan Enterprise, G DATA's AntiVirusKit 2007, and Norman's VirusControl.
    Norman's VirusControl. Yeah, that doesn't look like an attempt to market a product that deliberately sounds like a competitor...

    Now, if you're excuse me, I need to get back to setting up my Linkskey router...
  • Wait a minute (Score:1)

    by ChromeAeonium (1026952) on Tuesday February 06 2007, @11:10PM (#17916396)
    Microsoft's anti-virus was 'much-hyped'? I don't recall any Microsoft anti-virus software being much-hyped. Where was I during this hyping? Cynically scoffed at maybe, but I don't remember much hype going on.
    • 1 reply beneath your current threshold.
  • What Bill Thought (Score:2)

    by stox (131684) on Tuesday February 06 2007, @11:12PM (#17916410)
    (http://www.stox.org/)
    Steve: We need to have Vista committed to security.
    Bill: You mean make all our security programmers wear straight-jackets and prescribed large doses of anti-psychotic drugs.
    Steve: I guess so.
    Bill: OK, get right on it.
  • No excuse, like no excuse... (Score:5, Funny)

    by djupedal (584558) on Tuesday February 06 2007, @11:18PM (#17916454)
    "With the number of delays that we've seen in Vista's release, there's no excuse for security vendors not to have got their products right by now..."

    Security vendors. They're all alike. They say they come to help...to save us from all things dark, but in their black hearts, they all want the same thing. They all want to RULE the earth!
  • Better Solution (Score:2, Informative)

    I think the better solution is to get noobs to be better educated on how to avoid spyware and viruses, etc in the first place.

    This website has a great video I think all noobs should be required to watch BEFORE owning a computer.
    http://www.my-pc-help.com/video/v10017.htm [my-pc-help.com]

    An ounce of prevention is always better than the cure.
  • This is just one review... (Score:5, Informative)

    by Aryeh Goretsky (129230) on Tuesday February 06 2007, @11:29PM (#17916500)
    (http://www.goretsky.com/)
    Hello,

    I shared my thoughts on this over here [neowin.net] on Neowin.Net's forums, so I really don't just want to do a cut-and-paste job and post what I wrote in verbatim here.

    This is one of the first of a series of comparisons to include Microsoft Windows Live OneCare that Virus Bulletin [virusbtn.com] Magazine has been doing for many years. While I suspect it is more frustrating than embarrassing at this point for the team responsible for Microsoft's Windows Live OneCare, this is really Microsoft's first attempt at providing their own comprehensive anti-malware solution—MSAV [wikipedia.org], the product which shipped with DOS does not count, it was licensed from Central Point Software (who was later acquired by Symantec) who, in turn, had licensed the software from Carmel Software—and it is going to take some time and lots of signature release cycles in order to get their detection rate fine-tuned.

    I don't expect this first Virus Bulletin product comparison to be the last, and the question really isn't how Microsoft did this time: It is how their product does over the next year or two that matters. If it gets worse or stays the same, they are just another competitor in the space (albeit the one with the deepest products). If, however, their detection rate improves, it is going to make it just that much more difficult for their competitors to compete against them.

    As a disclaimer of sorts, I should mention that happen I work for one of the computer security companies that Microsoft competes against with this products, so this dicussion is far from academic for me. Frankly, though, I'm not expecting Microsoft's entry into this space to have any effect on my employer—we are good at what we do and have a very loyal customer base. Also, we tend to compete against other, similarly-sized companies in the field. What I do worry about, though, is how some of my friends and colleagues at the largest companies are going to handle Microsoft's entrance as they are going to be competing head-to-head against Microsoft for marketshare.


    Regards,

    Aryeh Goretsky
  • Big whoop.. (Score:1)

    by scoot80 (1017822) on Tuesday February 06 2007, @11:34PM (#17916536)
    (Last Journal: Tuesday September 18, @02:29AM)
    So what? For someone only wanting basic protection, its probably good enough. For someone wanting better antivirus protection, they'll get another antivirus program. Is this supposed to be big news?
  • Strange... (Score:5, Informative)

    by Critical_ (25211) on Tuesday February 06 2007, @11:37PM (#17916556)
    (http://www.ucla.edu/)
    Has anyone bothered to do some fact/typo checking before posting this stuff?

    Microsoft's offering was one of four suites which failed to detect all malware. The others were G-Data AntiVirusKit 2007 v.17.0.6353, McAfee VirusScan Enterprise 8.1i and Norman Virus Control 5.90.

    See, I run McAfee VirusScan Enterprise on Desktops and Servers here without problems. The latest version in the 8.0 line is 8.0i patch 15 [mcafeehelp.com]. The Vista-compatible version is 8.5i [mcafeehelp.com] which also works on Windows XP. There is no version 8.1i that I know of. Obviously this doesn't change the message that McAfee didn't earn the seal but I've never had problems with the VirusScan Enterprise line. To be frank, I've never encountered a single infection or uncontrolled virus problem on our network.

    Plus, who honestly uses just *one* virus scanner on the perimeter of their Microsoft Server-system based network? I certainly don't. For example, Exchange 2003 server on the perimeter runs software from GFI which has three separate virus scanning engines. This coupled with application executable hash-based protection offered in BlackICE takes care of the rest of the problems at the desktop/server level. It's the price we pay for using MS software.
    • Re:Strange... by sporkmonger (Score:2) Wednesday February 07 2007, @02:19AM
    • Re:Strange... by Aryeh Goretsky (Score:2) Wednesday February 07 2007, @02:35PM
    • 2 replies beneath your current threshold.
  • Sensationalism at its finest (Score:1, Insightful)

    by I'm Don Giovanni (598558) on Tuesday February 06 2007, @11:38PM (#17916562)
    According to the BBC article on this matter [bbc.co.uk], Live One care failed the test because it only detected 99.91% of the malware rather than 100%. And McAfee and the others did better but didn't achieve 100%. So, yes they failed, but at least talk about this in the proper context by using the actual numbers, instead of linking to a blog entry with the sensationalistic headline "Microsoft's Vista anti-virus solution slammed". Does slashdot not even *want* to have any credibility?
  • by RootWind (993172) on Tuesday February 06 2007, @11:52PM (#17916644)
    This is really a test of the scan engine and database. You would most likely get the exact same results from using the same product on all platforms they sell it on. Since they didn't test the same products on XP (why VirusBulletin always skips around with OS is beyond me), I am not sure how anyone could make any correlation to Vista versions of antiviruses.
  • Terrible Tagging (Score:3, Insightful)

    by Guanine (883175) on Wednesday February 07 2007, @12:13AM (#17916766)
    (http://www.tumbledry.org/)
    This may be tough on my karma, but I have to get it out: goddammit what's with the worthless tagging? I know the feature's beta, but if I see "haha" or "yes" followed by "no" one more time ... (ok I have no recourse). But seriously guys this feature is supposed to, as far as I can tell, eventually provide a useful augmentation or even replacement for search. Please try not to screw it up.
  • by HerculesMO (693085) on Wednesday February 07 2007, @12:25AM (#17916900)
    NOD32. Low resource usage and high effectiveness. What more can you ask for?
  • Whoever submitted this (Score:1, Funny)

    by wumpus188 (657540) on Wednesday February 07 2007, @12:40AM (#17917020)
    Whoever submitted this article is a troll. We all know that Vista do not need anti-virus.
  • New tag (Score:2, Funny)

    by arpy (587497) on Wednesday February 07 2007, @12:54AM (#17917114)
    defectivebyaccident
  • ...and here's the rest of the story! (Score:1, Informative)

    by purpleraison (1042004) on Wednesday February 07 2007, @04:18AM (#17918216)
    (http://star-trek.com/ | Last Journal: Thursday September 20, @08:01AM)
    I felt that this article was more geared towards highlighting which products were effective, as opposed to providing anything of substance about Microsoft's flagship antivirus product; thus the title is a bit misleading. For those who don't feel like navigating to the site, and registering so they may view the list, here it is: Alwil avast! Professional Edition 4.7- pass CA Anti-Virus 8.2.013 - pass CA eTrust Integrated Threat Management Suite r.8.1 - pass CAT Quick Heal AntiVirus Plus 2007 version 9.00 - pass ESET NOD32 antivirus system 2.7 - pass Fortinet FortiClient 3.0.379 - pass F-Secure Anti-Virus for Vista 2007 - pass Grisoft AVG 7.5.433 - pass Kaspersky Anti-Virus 6.0.2.546 - pass Sophos Anti-Virus 6.5.1 - pass Symantec AntiVirus 10.2.0.276 - pass Microsoft Windows Live OneCare 1.5 - FAIL McAfee VirusScan Enterprise version 8.1i - FAIL G DATA AntiVirusKit 2007 v. 17.0.6353 - FAIL Norman Virus Control v.5.90 - FAIL As you can see, there is much more to this article than meets the eye. Also interesting to note, is that Grisoft has one product that passes, and another that fails. Something that ties in closely with the fact that these tests are done monthly and are not intended to bash companies (which is respectable), but rather point out which are effective in detecting viruses. On a personal note: I found AVG to be a very effective antivirus program on Vista systems I have had to deploy -- and for personal use it is free :)
  • by thisispurefud (1061012) on Wednesday February 07 2007, @08:20AM (#17919650)
    (Last Journal: Thursday April 05 2007, @08:55AM)
    According to the test, "Microsoft Live OneCare caught 99.91% of the known active viruses it was tested against. This left it vulnerable to 37 separate malicious programs." And that was the *worst* result. A 99.91% success rate isn't exactly horrible.
  • F-Secure (Score:2)

    by Deathlizard (115856) on Wednesday February 07 2007, @09:14AM (#17920214)
    (http://www.bluecrimson.com/ | Last Journal: Sunday August 05, @10:40AM)
    I'm still trying to find out how F-secure passed this test.

    I don't know how many times I had to do virus cleanup on an F-secure PC because it couldn't delete the file, or it would happily let the virus run in the background, or not detect it at all. and that if it's running, since it wouldn't run in safe mode and half the time get corrupted by the virus.
  • AVG (Score:2, Interesting)

    by egandalf (1051424) on Wednesday February 07 2007, @10:51AM (#17921412)
    AVG has earned this certification, as noted on their website, for their professional version at least. Their website doesn't specify whether the free version is VB100 also, but I would assume it does since they both should run on the same AV engine.

    Did I mention they have a free version? For 9x/XP/Vista AND Linux?

    Yeah.
  • by mcguyver (589810) on Wednesday February 07 2007, @03:24PM (#17925256)
    I like the bash M$ when it's due but in this case they're no worse than products from these other guys: McAfee's VirusScan Enterprise, G DATA's AntiVirusKit 2007, and Norman's VirusControl. Yet the headline makes it seem like M$ was the only brand to not pass the litmus test...riight
  • by mmell (832646) <mike.mell@sbcglobal.net> on Wednesday February 07 2007, @05:09PM (#17926650)
    That is illogical . . . illogical . . . all units, Norman co-ordinate. All units, Norman coordinate!

    There's just something wrong about a crewman who never smiles!

  • Re:microsoft (Score:2)

    by icepick72 (834363) on Tuesday February 06 2007, @10:49PM (#17916240)
    proving once again how boring glib security comments are *yawn*
    [ Parent ]
  • Re:microsoft (Score:4, Insightful)

    by megaditto (982598) on Tuesday February 06 2007, @11:17PM (#17916436)
    Well, how many people run AV on their linux/BSD boxes?

    Now, since Vista is securebydesign, it too no longer needs any anti-viruses!
    [ Parent ]
    • Re:microsoft by value_added (Score:3) Wednesday February 07 2007, @01:40AM
    • Re:microsoft by cheater512 (Score:2) Wednesday February 07 2007, @02:08AM
    • Re:microsoft by rdoger6424 (Score:1) Wednesday February 07 2007, @06:19AM
    • Re:microsoft by mackyrae (Score:1) Wednesday February 07 2007, @01:39PM
    • Re:microsoft by darkonc (Score:2) Thursday February 08 2007, @01:46AM
  • Re:Umm.. (Score:2, Informative)

    by Anonymous Coward on Wednesday February 07 2007, @12:05AM (#17916716)
    Virus Bulletin is a major newsletter in the anti-virus/malware/spyware/etc industry. They publish disections of new "threats", various studies, and reviews of the latest products. It's not really a resource for the general population because subscriptions are expensive and many of the articles are quite technical (source code, executable disassembly, "kernel hacking", etc). It's more of a trade publication where people in the industry can keep track of the latest trends and what new technologies are coming around. You should care about what they think because they are one of the de facto authorities on these kinds of things. It is distributed in PDF form so it is probably floating around somewhere out there. If you can get a copy and read some of the technical articles you'll get a better idea of what they are all about.
    [ Parent ]
  • Re:options... (Score:1)

    by newt0311 (973957) on Wednesday February 07 2007, @12:38AM (#17917006)
    Its called tying and it is very illegal (anti-trust kind of illegal) for everybody except for MS. why not for MS? I wish I knew.
    [ Parent ]
  • Re:NAV (Score:2)

    by Columcille (88542) * on Wednesday February 07 2007, @12:42AM (#17917032)
    (http://www.musterion.net/)
    Symantec is on the list. These days, Symantec = Norton = Symantec, IIRC.
    [ Parent ]
    • Re:NAV by cheater512 (Score:2) Wednesday February 07 2007, @02:11AM
    • Re:NAV by Kymermosst (Score:2) Wednesday February 07 2007, @03:01AM
      • Re:NAV by Columcille (Score:2) Thursday February 08 2007, @06:00PM
    • 1 reply beneath your current threshold.
  • Re:options... (Score:1)

    by scoot80 (1017822) on Wednesday February 07 2007, @12:48AM (#17917074)
    (Last Journal: Tuesday September 18, @02:29AM)
    No, not necessarily illegal.

    However, they really should have a grace period of at least 6 months where they are still selling their computers with the option of Windows XP. After all, you can't guarantee everyone's business application will run on Vista, so untill thats sorted, businesses will still want to run XP, or 2000 for that matter.

    Unfortunately, they don't really care about that point of view, what they do care is about selling as many machines with Vista on it. For the home user buying a new PC, it probably won't make much difference in the end.
    [ Parent ]
    • Re:options... by Grinin (Score:1) Wednesday February 07 2007, @02:49AM
  • 13 replies beneath your current threshold.