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Hack a Million Systems and Earn a Job
Posted by
samzenpus
on Wed Jul 16, 2008 07:52 PM
from the don't-hate-the-player-hate-the-game dept.
from the don't-hate-the-player-hate-the-game dept.
An anonymous reader writes "It has been a number of years since the fantasy that hackers will be offered a job by those who they hacked was even a potential reality, but this might still be the case in New Zealand. An 18-year-old hacker responsible for writing a number of applications used by an online group called 'the A-Team' that allowed the creation of a million-plus machine botnet and a range of credit card fraud activities to take place, has walked free from court sans conviction despite pleading guilty. And to top it all off, the NZ police force were interested in talking to the hacker about working for them, and 'several computer programming companies' were also chasing him for his skills."
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Submission: Hack a million systems - earn a job by Anonymous Coward
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Well I always wanted to be an F1 driver... (Score:5, Funny)
Close to what they should have done (Score:5, Funny)
What they really should have done is force him to work for them. The logic for most crimes should be: commit a crime, be forced to work with police to prevent crime. The more they get, the easier it is to catch others, the more they get etc. Of course if he doesn't even have to do that, then I just hope he'll get murdered.
Parent
Re:Close to what they should have done (Score:4, Interesting)
An 18-year-old hacker responsible for writing a number of applications used by an online group called 'the A-Team' that allowed the creation of a million-plus machine botnet and a range of credit card fraud activities to take place,
Hah, I'm assuming there's some exaggeration taking place here... and from the sounds of it they're on the same Old English ego boosting bender those kids are probably on after doing something remotely notable.
Parent
Re:Close to what they should have done (Score:5, Insightful)
Yes, that's a brilliant idea. Piss off a hacker and then give him access to sensitive systems. I'm sure they have someone just as smart as he is to check what he's doing.
Parent
Re:Close to what they should have done (Score:4, Insightful)
who the hell said he'd get access to sensitive systems? He can work independently of their system. Hell, they can force him to work from home. If he violates any more laws, then it's more time.
Parent
Re:Close to what they should have done (Score:4, Insightful)
I'm not sure I trust that setup. At the very least wouldn't he need an honest desire to help out? You really can't "force" somebody to do work like that if they don't want to.
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Re:Close to what they should have done (Score:5, Insightful)
Hmm if I believe that it is stated in one of the fables of hackerdom that a hacker will be miserable and unproductive when forced to work 9 till 5 but will happily work from 12 till 2 AM. Perhaps forcing someone to do something they would gladly do of their own free will makes things worse for everyone.
Actually, I think your fable holds at least a little bit true, at least in my case. I work ~9-5 because it allows me to take care of myself and my family financially and because I believe in the work that I do. I worked my butt off in school to prepare myself for that.
Working on hacking systems, gaining unlawful access, collecting random accounts, etc? That was just juvenile fun that I got a great kick out of back in my youth - And it was all done mostly for free (my only benefit was free internet access through hacked accounts - that was all that my conscience would allow me to steal, although I had ample opportunity and admit to getting an ego-boost out of that fact - I was a just a talented juvenile delinquent). And, 12-2 AM were preferred hours for that kind of work. I stopped because I wanted to avoid jeopardizing future employment. But, despite being more satisfying on a number of levels, I would not say that my ~9-5 work now is ever as "enjoyable" as my history of 12-2 AM residence in hackerdom.
Parent
Re:Well I always wanted to be an F1 driver... (Score:5, Interesting)
Why would you want to be a F1 driver? It's the Rally drivers who get all the hot girls.
As for the NZ Police trying to employ the best hacker they failed to convict? Freaking Briliant IMHO.
Sure it will be togh to keep him out of crime and they may have to imprison him at a future date. On the upside, monitor him will be a lot easier when the police own his hardware and network. And all without violating any kind of civil liberties since he is an employee.
On top of that, Ciber crime, Fraud, Forgery etc.. are crimes of misdirected intellect. It takes a mind at least within the range of a clever criminal to capture him. Making this kid potentially quite useful.
Parent
Re:Well I always wanted to be an F1 driver... (Score:4, Funny)
Ciber crime
You mean stealing warmed, spiced apple juice from a dyslexic person?
Parent
Re:Well I always wanted to be an F1 driver... (Score:4, Funny)
Ciber crime
You mean stealing warmed, spiced apple juice from a dyslexic person?
No, he meant a weather in some location averaged over some long period of time that has fermented apple juice characteristics.
He's talking about London.
Parent
haha (Score:5, Insightful)
This has been on the news for awhile in NZ, the funny thing is the paper the other day said tens of thousands, then another one said hundreds and now it's a million!
Awesome.
Re:haha (Score:5, Funny)
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Re:haha (Score:5, Funny)
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So, shall we call him mitnick jr? (Score:4, Funny)
at least it was 2 forward and one back...
Re: (Score:3, Insightful)
This was not a step back for mankind - that happened many years ago. I saw only steps forward or sideways here - that's a pretty hefty fine for a kid, and he'll actually have a chance at doing something that isn't entirely socially destructive now. The alternatives (conviction and incarceration or parole) would just be destructive to him and worse than useless to the state.
If they jailed every 18-year-old that somehow didn't get a good sense of right and wrong from watching MSM, society would implode over
When we start (Score:4, Interesting)
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Re:When we start (Score:4, Insightful)
Yeah, because criminals are evil people who need to be locked up! Not fellow humans with issues. I'm not saying compassion absolves a person of their responsibility, it doesn't, but too many people seem to have this black and white view on justice, crime, and human nature.
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Re: (Score:3, Insightful)
Consider: 1% (or thereabouts) of the adult population of the US is in prison. Is this application of justice serving us?
If it keeps people with a history of burglary from robbing me? Yes. If it keeps the people with a history of murder from killing me? Yes. If it keeps the kids off my lawn? Well, kind-of.
OT - If it keeps otherwise law-abiding adults from smoking weed or people from using sex-toys in their own homes? Fuck no.
What happened to ethics when hiring? (Score:5, Insightful)
This guy has already proven that he will break the law. By working for the police department, he can write the systems for them, then later leave and hack their system. The guy has already been proven that he can't be trusted, so why work with him.
Re:What happened to ethics when hiring? (Score:5, Insightful)
This guy has already proven that he will break the law.
No he hasn't. He wasn't convicted, so the judge considers that what he did didn't break her interpretation of the law.
The guy has already been proven that he can't be trusted, so why work with him.
He hasn't been placed in a position of trust anymore than anyone else, so he has not proven anything. On the contrary, the Judge remarked that he has a phenomenal future ahead of him.
By working for the police department, he can write the systems for them, then later leave and hack their system.
Nobody trusts anybody in the police department. That's important and that's how you fight corruption. He will fit in well there.
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Re:What happened to ethics when hiring? (Score:4, Informative)
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Re:What happened to ethics when hiring? (Score:4, Interesting)
Well the article is a bit light on details and I can't be bothered researching any more, but if all the guy did was write the software then it's entirely plausible he didn't do anything technical illegal, in a "guns don't kill people, people do" kind of way.
On the other hand, he almost certainly knew exactly what the software he was writing was being used for, so it'd be like selling guns to people you knew were committing armed robberies.
If that's the case, then maybe the prosecution simply tried to get him for the wrong crime. Just like if someone brought charges of armed robbery against someone selling guns, I would expect them to be thrown out by the judge (though one would imagine such an obviously false charge wouldn't make it to court in the first place).
I don't know if NZ law will allow them to try again with a more appropriate charge or not.
Parent
Re:What happened to ethics when hiring? (Score:4, Insightful)
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False Dichotomy (Score:4, Insightful)
1. Nothing is stopping him from doing a little work "on the side". You hiring him does not mean he is not going to write rootkits. It also doesn't mean he's not going to take money to work against you.
2. He's gaining knowledge of your systems. When someone later outbids you, he's not only working against you, but doing so from a stronger position (while at the same time denying you any benefit you might have gotten from him).
Parent
No conviction (Score:5, Interesting)
Re:No conviction (Score:5, Interesting)
Finally, a reasonable justice system! Maybe I should move to New Zealand.
Parent
Why is this modded Funny? (Score:5, Interesting)
Why is this modded Funny? In this case it's a perfectly reasonable justice system. He's already been fined NZ$15,000 (~US$11,000) which would likely be a lot for him.
The judge looked at the situation and the context (including the fact that he's autistic), took into account that the police weren't too interested in seeing him in jail (NZ police are interested in actually preventing crime rather than simply locking people up), decided he's young and is probably unlikely to do it again if given a second chance, took into account that he's received other forms of discipline already, noted that he'd actually realised and accepted the consequences of what he did and was willing to try and pay reparations, noted that an on-the-record criminal conviction would limit him in a lot of ways for the rest of his life and probably put him in a position where he'd more likely offend again, and determined that all of this information outweighed the possibility of a discharge-without-conviction encouraging others.
This seems like a very good justice system to me. The judge is actually considering the case on its merits and taking into account that throwing someone into jail will just make it more likely they'll re-offend when they get out.
Parent
Where is the proof? (Score:4, Interesting)
The NZ Police force have stated they are not offering him a job, yet somehow all the NZ media are saying companies are lining up to offer him a job. I've seen nothing but speculation and rumours.
While it's unfortunate that he has a form of Aspergers, the kid should have been convicted.
Re: (Score:3, Informative)
Re:Where is the proof? (Score:5, Informative)
Parent
Crime Pays? (Score:3, Funny)
RTFA, he has Asberger's (Score:5, Insightful)
Honestly, he's an 18 year old with Asperger's. In other words, he's a lonely teenage nerd, with a literal handicap in the personality department. The only thing to do is give the kid a job.
Asperger's, like autism, makes cause and effect a little difficult to process. That said, people with Asperger's also tend to be very methodical (as his computer expertise can attest.) Setting down a clear set of expectations for him about how to behave in the computing realm is difficult, but it's not the same thing as trying to reform a hardened hacker. He's young, and he's not entirely with it, at least not in terms of personal interaction. I imagine that's exactly why he hasn't been charged.
Some more context might be useful (Score:5, Insightful)
Some more context might be useful. Walker had mild Aspergers syndrome; criminals were paying him to work, but the judge believed that he was unaware of what they were doing with his work. Even the crown prosecutor acknowledged that he had not profited financially, nor had he used the botnet (which, I guess, he helped make) for fraudulent purposes.
Summary: Aspergers kid develops amazing programming skills; gets exploited by bad guys; when it all blows up his family starts paying more attention to him and he gets more sociable. Judge realises that he done wrong, but he didn't mean wrong; sending him to prison would ruin his life and cost taxpayers money, whereas keeping him out of prison will let his family set him straight and turn him into a profitable, functioning member of society.
MOD PARENT UP (Score:5, Insightful)
Personality disorders such as Aspergers can be debilitating, but at some point we must all take responsibility for our own actions. No one else can.
Parent
I've seen this happen (Score:5, Interesting)
I worked as tech support for a small local isp a few years back, and this kind of thing happened to a guy who was hired with me. When we were all sitting in the conference room getting the legal brief, one of the stipulations was something like, "You cannot work here if you've ever been convicted of a computer hacking-related crime" or something to that effect.
The lady said it with that haha-I-know-no-one-in-this-room-is-that-smart kind of way, but the guy sitting next to me got real quiet and asked if he could talk to her outside. Turns out he cracked into a bunch of university computers down in georgia or someplace and it was a pretty big deal, and he had used this local isp as his springboard. It was iffy for a while but they gave him the job anyways, since he did the crime when he was a young teenager.
Reubens, if you're reading this, feel free to correct me if my details were wrong.
-b
And he goes down for what? (Score:4, Interesting)
Followed this case closely.... especially the thing that brought him down: a UPenn student named Ryan Goldstein, aka Digerati...
http://lamp.dailypennsylvanian.com/thespin/2007/11/29/penn-student-enters-the-matrix/ [dailypennsylvanian.com]
A wannabe hacker who got kicked out of an IRC group frequented by a group called Splinter Security for being a pedophile:
http://www.scriptkitty.net/files/Digerati-Exposed.zip [scriptkitty.net]
[NSFW]
Whose teenage angst could not be contained... and hired a NZ skript kiddie named AKILL... who agreed to use his botnet to do a DDOS against TAUnet... as this would somehow make Splinter Security Group realize how much of a mistake they'd made in banning Ryan for being a pedo and beg for him back.
IN EXCHANGE FOR THIS: Ryan offered up some bandwidth on an engineering lab server so that AKILL could update the code on his botnet.
The way they got caught: As it turns out, people notice when your 40,000 node botnet tries to download an executable off of a server that normally sees no activity.... ALL AT THE SAME TIME. As it turns out, that server crashes, the traffic doesn't stop, people notice something's wrong and call the feds.
It's all quite funny.
Catch me if you Can (Score:5, Interesting)
As a society, we need to realize that criminals or 'outcasts' (for whatever reason) can be extraordinarily intelligent. As a society, we need to learn how to harness their skills.
Frank Abagnale (the main character of said movie) turns from a check-forger into a designer of secure checks... by using his knowledge of what's hard to forge. We're all better off as a result.
There was a kid a couple of months ago who had the creative and technical skill to make a CounterStrike map of his school. I sure as hell can't do that. Now instead of letting him do an independent study in game design or 3d modeling, or even teach a class (after school or whatever), they sent him to a 'special' school (where they send all the stupid bullies).
We need to give people who possess this intelligence another outlet.... otherwise they'll continue to eat our lunch. Being on the wrong side of the law is obviously more interesting, which is presumably the appeal - a Google-style approach of 'work on cool projects on a flexible schedule' ought to keep them interested enough to do productive work.
A-Team (Score:4, Funny)
And this is why I love NZ (Score:4, Insightful)
Good morning the worm, your honor (Score:3, Funny)
The crown will plainly show the prisoner who now stands before you, was caught red handed 0wn1ng people, 0wn1ng people of an almost HUMAN nature.
This will not do.
Sorry, couldn't resist.
Hiring hackers - why it might not be a good idea (Score:5, Insightful)
Like I wrote back in 2001 Hiring hackers - why it might not be a good idea [seifried.org]
There has been a long, ongoing debate about this issue, and recently it has resurfaced in public. Should companies hire hackers convicted of computer crimes? The general theory is that these "hackers" are elite commando style computer security experts that can tighten up your network in a weekend marathon of pizza and pop. Often nothing is further from the truth.
The first concern I would have is: are these people really any good at computer security? Now this may sound like a rather silly question, but it bears asking. The most obvious clue would be that they have been caught and convicted of a computer related crime. If they are such great "hackers" why did they get caught? Kevin Mitnick, a very famous hacker, was caught several times, and spent time in jail. Most hackers possess very little actual skill. They simply follow in the footsteps of others. It is very easy to download precompiled exploit scripts from sites such as rootshell and then use them to break into systems. Even assuming for a moment that this person has any advanced computer security skills related to breaking into networks, this does not mean they have the skills needed to secure networks. It is one thing to find a weakness and exploit it, but it is an entirely different matter to fix it properly.
Securing a network takes a lot more then plugging a few technical holes. Even if I were to walk into your network and fix every single existing problem, it would not make your network secure. Security is a procedure with many steps, assessment, definition of needs, planning, implementation, review, and so forth, which amounts to a never ending cycle. Even if you hire a brilliant hacker that secures you against all known attacks, new problems will crop up. Even if your hacker has these qualities, their ethics are extremely questionable. There is a famous saying among lawyers: "never put a perjurer on the stand", which boils down to "if you know he's lied before, chances are, he might do it again". How can you trust your newly hired hacker not to slip backdoors into the system that they might later exploit. While it is true that any trusted employee might try to do something like this it certainly seems silly to put yourself in a higher risk category.
A company has a fiduciary responsibility to stockholders. They are entrusted with their stockholders' money and are expected to make decisions that will increase it without unnecessary risk. Engaging in high risk behavior means legal liability. For example, would it be reasonable to sue the corporation for not taking proper care and responsibility in hiring someone they know to have offended before? Considering the position of trust most security administrators are placed in (they have administrative access to servers, monitor users' network usage, read incoming and outgoing e-mail and so on) is it really wise to hire these people? A person with administrative access to a server, or physical access to the network can break into systems and leave backdoors with nary a trace. Would you expect a bank to hire criminals convicted of armed robbery to transport money on the grounds they know what to look out for? Would you hire a burglar to install the alarm system for your house?
While it would be nice if all criminals that got caught were rehabilitated, used their skills for good rather than evil, and never offended again, this is not a perfect world. By breaking the law, for whatever reason (curiosity, maliciousness, etc.) they have chosen to violate rules generally accepted in most countries and societies. They have (at a bare minimum) shown poor decision making, and while they may not specifically want to re-offend, they may be tempted by a short term gain and take a chance (as they have in past).
Summary
While it is possible to find a convicted hacker with the skills you want, it is exceedingly ra
Re: (Score:3, Funny)
Oh great. I'm twenty and I'm comparitively useless and old. That's so depressing. :(
Now you just have to grow your hair long and look depressed and you too can be like him.
Re: (Score:3, Informative)
Re: (Score:3, Informative)
Re:Typical New Zealand (Score:5, Informative)
Parent
Re: (Score:3, Insightful)
Do you see prison and tougher sentances as a deterrant? I don't. Unlike what I hear quite a lot of, I'm not personally convinced that the possibility of longer sentances even occur to most people before they commit a crime. Many are probably not even considering the possibility of getting caught, or just thinking it's unlikely.
Personally I'd prefer that people didn't offend in the first place, and that people didn't re-
Re:Typical New Zealand (Score:4, Interesting)
Perhaps that's because the NZ system knows that punishment doesn't really do much to prevent crime?
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Re:Kiwis are out of touch (Score:4, Funny)
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Re:Kiwis are out of touch (Score:5, Funny)
Typical, they are a decade behind the rest of the world.
Yeah the "world" is so ahead isn't it. Poor Kiwis, why haven't they got all their troops in the middle east already, and a mortgage crisis, and incalculable foreign debt and nuclear power and massive prisons and... and when can I move there?
Parent
Re:Kiwis are out of touch (Score:4, Informative)
Firstly, we don't have mortgage crisis. We've had a few high-risk property investment companies collapsing, sure. But it's a long way from a crisis yet. And to compare our woes with what the US is experiencing is to really underestimate their situation.
As for our "third world" power generation, two thirds of our power is generated from renewable sources (mostly hydro and geothermal). Which means, sure, we have times (like now) when the water in our hydro lakes is getting a little low, and we have to conserve. On the other hand, it means that we're that much less reliant on oil, a power source that's going to become more expensive, rapidly.
Oh, and the rise of youth crime is a myth [somethingemporium.com]. A pervasive one, sure. But in reality, crime rates have been falling for twelve years now [somethingemporium.com], and youth crime as a percentage of offending has stayed steady across the same period. Combine that with an increasing population (which you'd expect to see raise per-capita crime rates), and the rise of cellphones and associated crime reporting levels, and we're looking pretty damn low on crime at the moment.
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