Microsoft to Simplify Downgrades From Vista to XP

castrox writes "Microsoft has noted that many corporate users want to run XP instead of Vista. They are now simplifying the downgrade process for top OEMs. Currently, all OEMs must call Microsoft whenever a downgrade is done. After the new procedure is put into place, OEMs may submit batches of keys to Microsoft online. According to the Microsoft blog on ZDNet, the 'downgrade software' will still need to be supplied by the end user. The deal is rather perplexing — it does not seem like you can convert the license since the only eligible versions for downgrading is Ultimate and Business. The company has more details available in a pdf document online."

The downgrade installation manager...

[Skevin (16048)]

...will probably be named:

Turbo Debuggerer

Solomon

Re:

[jollyreaper (513215)]

...will probably be named:

Turbo Debuggerer

You think so? My guess is "Sodomizer 2007: Goatse is only the beginning." Next year you will have to upgrade Sodomizer to 2008, even though it's still degrading Vista to XP.

Re:The downgrade installation manager...

[neoform (551705)]

Why's it called a down-grade anyway?

Seems like an up-grade or at least a non-grade to me.

Not that this matters...

[Chordonblue (585047)]

Because as the new hardware arrives, drivers for XP will be scarce. This only matters on older corporate computers, not new ones.

Re:

[poopie (35416)]

Can you find me any hardware that is supported in Vista and *not* in XP?

Re:Not that this matters...

[Qrlx (258924)]

DX10 shaders?

Re:

[BESTouff (531293)]

OK, here is my guess: by 2008 DX10 shaders run on WinXP. One way or the other.

Re:

[empaler (130732)]

You're probably right. And it'll probably the last nail in the coffin for Vista. Hackers of the world unite! We must mobilize a program to bring DX10 to XP. If this is done, it will be a serious blow to the MS juggernaut!

Fire away, more karma than shiva and all that, but for the record, I'm not trolling, I'm predicting what I happen to think is the most likely course of events.

Yeah! Let's show Microsoft, that because their newest OS sucks, WE'LL JUST USE THEIR OLD ONE!


Erm. That still leaves Windows computers the de facto standard.

Re:Perplexing?

[uncoveror (570620)]

Vista is bad enough in an office where everyone is used to XP, but the ultimate disaster for productivity is Office 2007. People who are used to previous versions of Office will be hopelessly lost. All the pulldown menus are gone, replaced by those confusing tabs. They really went out of their way to fix something that wasn't broken, creating something that is. The cost of ownership would be higher for Office 2007 than 2003 even if Microsoft was paying you to take it off their hands. The good news is that Open Office has a lot more of the look and feel people are used to, and is free.

Re:

[pe1chl (90186)]

The interesting fact is that in some (many?) companies where OpenOffice.org was tried as an alternative to MS Office, the experiment was terminated because employees complained that they were not familiar with the program, they knew everything about MS Office, and the time required to learn the new program would be worth more than the price difference.
So, it would be cheaper to buy MS Office than to use OpenOffice.org for free, just because of the training issues.

I wonder what those folks are going to do wh

What price do you pay for XP this way?

[Idaho (12907)]

Because I'd bet that you'll still have the great benefit of paying the hugely inflated prices for Windows Vista (especially the ultimate version) rather than what the XP license used to cost.

Oh, the joys of working with Microsoft software.

Re:

[Ryan Amos (16972)]

XP Pro costs the same as Vista Business.

Home users get to buy XP again.

[twitter (104583)]

My friends tell me that what the summary reports is accurate:

it does not seem like you can convert the license since the only eligible versions for downgrading is Ultimate and Business.

This is true for home users. Your Vista license can not be used for XP, even if you simply upgraded. When you transfer your XP license to Vista, M$ won't give it back to you with their "Please let me use my OS" validation page. So, if you make the mistake of "upgrading" XP to Vista, you will have to buy XP again if you don't like Vista. Let's just say that people have not been happy with that and hope that M$ fixes it real soon.

Business users, I'm sure, get the usual double M$ tax. They pay the M$ tax when they buy the computer and they pay it again when they buy the OS and actual software, assurance plans and other nonsense.

No Choice Purchase.

[twitter (104583)]

An AC says:

Corperations that have a volume license and buy a dell witha license sticker on it are incredibly stupid. They are intentionally paying Microsoft twice on every laptop and PC they buy. The director of IT should be fired for such wasteful purchasing practices.

It's not stupid if you don't have a choice because the vendor won't sell without the M$ tax. Companies will sell discarded boxes to their employees at "cost" and the price is around $200. It includes no software, but that does not mean

Re:No Choice Purchase.

[mp3phish (747341)]

I would like to point out a couple innaccuracies in your post.

First of all, corporate customers on the volume license agreement pay per full time equivilent employee, not per machine, for their licenses. This license allows them to install any office or windows pro products on all systems the company owns, provided they originally came with any version of windows from the OEM.

The license does NOT cover, however, the installation of windows XP pro, or vista business, on a computer that originally came wihth Linux (Dell's Ubuntu laptops), freeDOS, or MacOS (all apple computers). The corporate license of the OS is for the UPGRADE only to the professional version of the latest or previous release. In this case, XP or Vista.

The problems for businesses are many:
- businesses or government institutions who are on the license and don't re-image all their systems end up licensing XP pro/vista business TWICE for each employee.
- In order to not double pay, you must buy the system with a home version of windows, then image it using the corporate license to XP Pro or Vista Business. In this way, you pay minimally for the home version, then upgrade the system to pro using the corporate license.
- Many places do a hybrid method, and only double pay in some instances: they deploy large quantities of desktops or laptops at a time and order with home edition, then since they are managing them all with altiris they just stick the corporate image on them when they arrive. But they also some employees to choose which system they want to order for example, customize one specifically for them from dell.com. Then, those people always end up ordering xp pro because they don't want to have to re-load the system when they receive it from the factory. Since these people are ordering one at a time, its difficult to manage them with an automated deployment system like altiras because of increased down time and technician time.

So, its not a clear cut argument. It is definately a problem, and this complexity is 100% due to microsoft's stubbornness on the "upgrade" license (fact: you cannot purchase a MS OS volume license that is not upgrade only). MS should be more kind to their large customers and allow them to install on ALL systems, not just all MS systems. But they specifically do it on purpose as the loophole way around the DOJ lawsuit which prohibited microsoft from banning OEM's from selling non-microsoft computers. So this way, they get to have their cake, and still follow the letter of the judgement.

Re:

[lucas teh geek (714343)]

no, if we're going for bad car analogies, this is more like putting a cardboard body kit and neons under your car, realizing you were an idiot for doing so and then not being allowed to take them off again

Easier Plan.

[twitter (104583)]

How about this? When you buy a PC with either Vista Home version, call the manufacturer and say you cannot accept the terms of the EULA and want to return Vista for a refund. Use the refund to buy XP home.

That would work great, except you will have to spend $100 to get XP, which won't have drivers for your shiny new laptop. With M$, your options are, deal with a buggy Vista install or use preinstalled 7 year old software or don't buy a new computer.

The only way to know for sure if your hardware is go

Re:What price do you pay for XP this way?

[Mateo_LeFou (859634)]

"Because I'd bet that you'll still have the great benefit of paying the hugely inflated prices for Windows Vista"

I'll do whatever it takes to make my business people-ready.

Baby steps.

[jcr (53032)]

This is a good start. Microsoft had to start somewhere in learning to be responsive to their customers.

-jcr

Re:

[aldousd666 (640240)]

I'll bet they're shitting rocks now though after pushing so much into this and to see it struggle so much. There is of course the possibility that they are able to just use vista as a stopgap until the next version comes out. Perhaps that's been the plan all along, or at least on the drawing board.

Re:

[TrippTDF (513419)]

It's no start, it's just another business opportunity. Now going BACK to what you had is just another way for MS to make money, as you'll have to pay for the copy of XP along with the Vista license you already have.

It's almost like the "new coke" thing- make something worse and people will be happy when you give them back the crap they had. Only this time, M$ makes out like a bandit.

Leave it to Microsoft...

[amuro98 (461673)]

Only Microsoft can make otherwise simple activities into tortorous affairs.

Why do the companies have to tell Microsoft everytime they "downgrade" a PC from Vista to XP? Does the company receive some sort of credit for being forced to buy an OS they don't want/need?

Why can't they just buy the PCs with XP already on them without having to uninstall Vista, then re-install XP, then beg for Microsoft's forgiveness, THEN apply all the hundreds of patches - each of which also requires a reboot, and then...

Re:Leave it to Microsoft...

[Archangel Michael (180766)]

"Why can't they just buy the PCs with XP already on them without having to uninstall Vista, then re-install XP, then beg for Microsoft's forgiveness, THEN apply all the hundreds of patches - each of which also requires a reboot, and then..."

Companies don't do it this way, they use Windows Deployment Services (formerly RIS), and install fully patched and ready to go OS and Applications using PXE boot off the network. Total Tech time (not process time) for a complete (re)install, about 5 minutes (or less). Anyone with more than a handful of machines would benefit from WDS(RIS) setup.

Right now, when someone complains about "slow computer" or other mysterious problem, I WDS the machine and a few minutes (30-60 mins) later, a fully functioning workstation, with all the standard applications required, and none of the cruftware/crapware.

It is the only way to go, if Windows is involved.

Corporate licensing...

[HerculesMO (693085)]

Is a huge reason we dread getting Vista here. Compatibility isn't too much of an issue, we have been doing preliminary testing and found a reasonable expectation with it to work with our software.

However, having to set up an activation server, have users log back in every 180 days... is just idiotic.

If we get audited, we get screwed anyway. So why make it so difficult?

Re:

[Lxy (80823)]

You have 2 options with corporate licensing. You can either set up a corporate license activation server (as you described, needs to reactivate every 180 days) or you can use a Multiple Activation Key which only forces you to register once.

The downside to the MAK is that you have to register with MS directly, so you'll need an internet connection after setting up the box.

Re:

[LWATCDR (28044)]

But it will not run all those .NET apps that the company depends on. Or the accounting software. Or the latest version of Outlook that we all use.
I am sad to say but just upgrading to any Linux or even Mac just isn't that simple.

Re:Corporate licensing...

[LWATCDR (28044)]

Mono will not run all .NET applications and WINE is hit or miss. For most business computers are NOT their business. They are just a tool. They don't want to try anything. They just want it to work.
You also don't pay hackers to patch your ACCOUNTING SYSTEM!
I work for a software development firm. We build our own servers. We set up our own DNS, Firewalls, Phone System. Mail servers, and database servers all running Linux. We paid a company to set up the accounting system and it runs on a Windows box. Why?
Because we couldn't find a Linux accounting system that our accountant liked and none of us want to get blamed if it fails. Accounting is just too important to risk messing up. There are some new FOSS accounting stuff out that looks good but we have already bought and paid for what we have and frankly moving accounting systems is painful.
As I said IT ISN"T THAT EASY TO JUST MOVE TO LINUX. Even for a software development firm like the one I work for. Even then a good 50% of the people here are none technical and probably 90% have no Linux experience yet.

Re:Corporate licensing...

[LWATCDR (28044)]

Unfortunately when most of the lock in happened Linux wasn't an option. Lock in doesn't happen overnight and getting out of it also takes time. It only seems so simple to people who haven't lived through it.
Of course the other problem is frankly and I know people will hate me for saying it... Some of Microsoft's products really are very good solutions. I don't think that Outlook+Exchange+Blackberry has any FOSS equivalent for the enterprise.
OO.org is very new compared to Office.

Environmental reasons

[athloi (1075845)]

For environmental reasons, Microsoft should continue development and support of Windows 2000 and XP. Older machines will keep running longer and so stay out of landfills, and they could eventually give these operating systems away free to benefit the penniless basement-dwellers of the world who keep typing "F1R5T P05T" at the start of every thread.

Re:

[secPM_MS (1081961)]

For security reasons alone Win 2K should be killed. XP SP2 and the upcomming XP SP3 are far more secure. Microsoft will be supporting XP with the then current service pack until something like 2013 under extended support, for both enterprises and normal users. Vista is more secure than XP. One of the major advantages of Vista that is not discussed in public is that it is FAR easier to run as a normal user in Vista than it is in XP. This has major security advantages.

I will shortly be doing the experiment

Nice for businesses

[jshriverWVU (810740)]

but what about the average consumer? My uncle bought a laptop with Vista and it is HORRIBLE. I've tried a couple times to get Best Buy and Toshiba to let him downgrade but they wont. Best Buy just says they dont sell XP anymore and scoffed at me, Toshiba refuses to.

So if MS is letting businesses do this, can the average consumer call up and say "hey I'll mail you the original CD + key, send me back an XP disc + key"

Re:

[realmolo (574068)]

You *can* downgrade to XP. But you can only downgrade to *XP Professional*, and you must have purchased either Vista Ultimate or Vista Business in the first place.

So if you buy Vista Home or Vista Home Premium, you are stuck with them. No downgrades for you.

That's about right.

[twitter (104583)]

You *can* downgrade to XP. But you can only downgrade to *XP Professional*, and you must have purchased either Vista Ultimate or Vista Business in the first place. So if you buy Vista Home or Vista Home Premium, you are stuck with them. No downgrades for you.

That's what I've heard [slashdot.org]. Another option is to simply buy a retail copy of XP -$ouch$- but good luck getting all the drivers you need for a new laptop.

Oh the Joy of the M$ Treadmill.

Why do I like to use "$" in my messages? Because I like what s

Re:

[secPM_MS (1081961)]

If you are using marginal HW with Vista, turn off the sidebar and under advanced system properties set it to optimize for performance. This will blow your UI back to a 2K/XP classic look, but it helps a lot. I have been running Vista and LongHorn server beta builds on old HW since pre beta 1 days. As long as you have drivers, you can make it work pretty well. Memory is the most important thing. I will shortly be doing the experiment and trying to convert an old PC to Vista (an old Dell with a 1.7 Ghz P4 th

Simple?

[Enrique1218 (603187)]

You can't use the word perplexing and simple to describe the same thing! A simple way to allow business PC buyers to downgrade is the OEM sells the computer with free dos (making sure the hardware is compatible with XP). There done! Microsoft does not need to get involve with the sale of the hardware. They can deal directly with the customer when it comes time to renew the licensing agreement.

University

[michrech (468134)]

I work for a university in the US -- this doesn't affect us one bit. No matter what the machines come with, we wipe the drive and drop our XP image to it (a lab/classroom image or a faculty image, depending on where the machine will end up).

When I build the image, any new models we receive have their drivers added to the image with this [vernalex.com] as part of our sysprep. We use Symantec Ghost Solution Suite 2.x (we use the DOS based DeployCenter to actually drop the image from our central imaging server to the workstations). I also have to modify the DeployCenter boot floppy (stored as an .img file that is called by isolinux/syslinux from the UBCD4.0 custom disk I also created) to add the .DOS driver and PCI ID string so the NIC detection works properly.

I kinda went off topic there, however, the point is we have a MS Campus agreement for ~2000 seats (we are somewhere around 1600 to 1800, actually) for XP/Office2003/Vista/Office2007, so no matter what the computers we order come with, it's wiped and replaced with our own image (without even allowing the OEM drive to do its first boot).

The only people I see this affecting are businesses that use the machines as they come in, loading software on a one-by-one basis. It won't affect LARGE businesses (or those in the same situation as the university).

Summary is Wrong

[andrewd18 (989408)]

the only eligible versions for downgrading is Ultimate and Business.

Actually, if you read the PDF, it says this:

The OEM vesions of Windows Vista Business and Windows Vista Ultimate include downgrade rights

It's the Vista Business and Vista Ultimate vesions. Get it right, Slashdot.

Upgrade to Ubuntu

[mw13068 (834804)]

Downgrade from Vista to XP? Naw, Upgrade to Ubuntu.

Free Software means never having to tell anyone what you want to run on your computers...

Re:Upgrade to Ubuntu

[daybot (911557)]

Free Software means never having to tell anyone what you want to run on your computers...

As you have showcased, free software means telling everyone what you run on your computers!

Re:

[Mr. Vage (1084371)]

Gah, Windows, Mac, Linux. What happened to the good ol' days where there was none of this GUI crap. It all just gets in the way. I could type all of my commands way faster than anyone with a mouse could do the same thing. Thats another thing that I can't stand, mice. Who wants to hold something that bears the same name as a nasty animal it their hand? Not me, but the thing that I hate the most about all of these newfangled operating systems is those damn bright, blinding colors. Black and white are the only

Home Premium seems to permit this too

[jim_deane (63059)]

I was bored and actually READ the licensing information (well, most of it) when I first booted my new Toshiba laptop that came with Vista Home Premium.

A section in that document specifically stated that THIS license may also be used to run a previous version of Windows, and I think it specifically stated Windows XP and Windows 2000.

I remember thinking "Well, that's nice to know," but so far have not run into any major Vista problems to worry about.

Farce!

[loraksus (171574)]

The Vista downgrade process is horrible beyond words and we've had cases where it would of have been cheaper to buy an oem XP than pay for our time.

What the current process is - and I have a "manager's manager" (a guy somewhere in North America) on tape with this - is that you install using any legit media and a legit xp cd key.
Then, when the PC fails activation (which it will, if you've used the same key a few times), you call in, do the song and dance with the crap voice recognition system, talk to an Indian and hopefully* get an activation key.
This method will no doubt cause us problems in the future with genuine advantage, etc, but there isn't a damn thing we can do about that.

*I say hopefully because Microsoft reps don't know what the hell they are talking about and different call centers will get you different answers / route you to the wrong people. We've had a call where 2 managers were yelling at each other in Indian in a very heated argument while we sat wondering "wtf". Getting a key normally takes about 2 hours although we've got them in as little as 5 minutes after we've passed through the pointless activation voice system. The process is generally quicker now, although we dread calling. Oh... and we've gotten completely conflicting information - although MS is not supposed to generate xp keys, I've had several keys generated for me (if you bully the female Filipino csrs, they generally do stuff they apparently shouldn't)

Of course, for customer satisfaction, we've written most of this off - it totals in the thousands of dollars at this point. We've been pleading with Microsoft (we have system builder status, but we usually act as resellers) to get us a better process, because this is a waste of our time, but nothing has happened. False promises, missed deadlines, et al. OEMs were supposed to have a policy in place months ago, but as far as I know, not a single large company (from Seanix to HP to Dell and Lenovo) has the capability for their phone technicians to generate an XP cd key to solve this problem.

We're especially hit hard because we mainly deal with small businesses - usually under 75 people (we're in a fairly small town, so those businesses have slowly grown to get that "big"). If our customers were bigger, they'd use volume license agreements. As it is, they don't and we can't exactly say "fuck it" and install a corp edition w/ a wga crack which is what I've heard some of the smaller companies around here are doing.

Furthermore, I worked for Vista support for a few weeks during the rollout (if anyone wants a shitty, low paying job, head up to Sutherland in Vernon, BC) nobody knew what they were doing and we got conflicting information during training. When we were sitting on the line during the downgrade process, none of the indian csrs knew what was going on.
From what I understand from my contacts there, nothing has changed.

I'm assuming that Microsoft can reach all their outsourced call centers and provide them with the correct information (they have a centralized call logging application).
The fact is that that they have had several months and they haven't. CSRs are still giving out bad info and managers still have no idea what the hell the process is.
I don't want to say that Microsoft is intentionally making the process difficult, but I can't see any other explanation except for mass incompetence.
I know for sure that we haven't heard the good news or the new process yet... Maybe people in Canuckistan have to wait a bit for the news to filter down...

New Slashdot Story Category - Downgrade?

[CodeBuster (516420)]

I propose that Slashdot add a category for 'downgrade'. They have one for 'upgrade' so why not 'downgrade'?

Re:

[Knara (9377)]

I suspect this is a red-tape licensing issue not a technical issue. The companies in question probably bought individual Vista Business licenses, found that Vista wasn't gonna work so hot in their environment, and then wanted to use the licenses they already paid for to use XP instead. So now they can do it in batch format instead of having to do individual "downgrades" (so to speak) for every licenses.

Re:

[Serapth (643581)]

In our case, atleast with XP/2000, we were a 2000 shop at the time, but OEMs shipped with XP. So, basically, we would get a computer in, clear it and install 2000 instead. Same deal here, just a generation later. Not really sure what the big deal is though, atleast in Canada, an XP license allowed you to downgrade to 2000, as an Office 2k3 license would permit you to install 2000 if you preferred.

Re:

[th3_ev1l_m0nk3y (1122123)]

We are talking about non-enterprise customers here who do not have a volume license key. So, they have to wipe Vista off the PC, install XP and activate it. In order to activate it, they need individual keys from the OEM/Microsoft for each system. We have an Enterprise agreement with Microsoft, which makes the process much easier. We just image the new PC with an XP image that has our VLK.

Re:

[niceone (992278)]

why don't corporations just install XP?

If I read TFA correctly, the deal here is that you are buying Vista, but you get to run XP until you are ready to move the machine to Vista. If you just bought XP you'd have to buy a Vista upgrade later.

Re:

[jollyreaper (513215)]

I know this will blow most slashdot posters' minds but most companies, indeed, even most people don't install their own operating systems when they buy a computer.

*sets down bong* Whoa.... *giggles*

Re:Downgrade?

[niceone (992278)]

I'd consider it an upgrade.

Yeah, they're missing an opportunity here - if they admitted it was an upgrade, they could charge for it.

Re:

[robogun (466062)]

I'll add my story to that guy's, however mine involves 2000.

My four-year-old R40 was dying or so I thought, USB ports falling out & so I figured it was finally time to dive headfirst into the brave new world of WGA Activation and DRM. Also wanted to try out some sexy new .NET 3.0 apps (MS has locked out XP SP1 & below for its new VB language).

I *scored* a new R60 Core 2 Duo T5500 for less than $500, had XP Pro and Office 2003 preinstalled.

Well to make a long story short, XP Pro broke half our legacy