A Lot of Product Makers Snub Right To Repair Laws (theregister.com) 54
A year after Right to Repair laws took effect in California and Minnesota, many product manufacturers continue to obstruct consumer repairs, according to a new study from advocacy group US PIRG. The organization's "Leaders and Laggards II" report evaluated 25 products across five categories and found 40% received failing grades of D or F.
Apple delivered the study's biggest surprise, earning a B+ for its latest iPad and B for the M3 MacBook Pro after releasing repair manuals for the iPad in May. The Framework Laptop 13 and Valve's Steam Deck topped the rankings with A+ scores. Dishwashers from Beko, Bosch, Frigidaire, GE, and LG performed worst alongside gaming consoles from MSI, Atari, and Sony. Researchers could not access repair manuals for 48% of products and found no available spare parts for 44%.
Apple delivered the study's biggest surprise, earning a B+ for its latest iPad and B for the M3 MacBook Pro after releasing repair manuals for the iPad in May. The Framework Laptop 13 and Valve's Steam Deck topped the rankings with A+ scores. Dishwashers from Beko, Bosch, Frigidaire, GE, and LG performed worst alongside gaming consoles from MSI, Atari, and Sony. Researchers could not access repair manuals for 48% of products and found no available spare parts for 44%.
Sueconomies of scale (Score:1)
It might require class-action lawsuits, or a sub-industry dedicated to suing them, somewhat comparable to patent trolls (but for a good cause).
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Or mandate prominent ratings displayed on products - similar to the energy ratings.
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Or treat these corporations the same way we would treat a person who broke the law. Start putting them in jail. Arrest the executives responsible for making these decisions and if they claim to be uninvolved or ignorant charge them with gross negligence on top of everything else, it's a confession not a defense. And instead of pathetically ineffective fines they can treat as a rounding error in their profits start seizing percentages of the company and at 51% give it the death penalty by revoking their corp
Highly integrated makes repair a farce (Score:1)
It might require class-action lawsuits, or a sub-industry dedicated to suing them, somewhat comparable to patent trolls (but for a good cause).
It won't work. Our modern products are just too highly integrated. For example our CPUs and RAM will with greater frequency be integrated and soldered onto mainboards, will not be replaceable socketable things. Upgrade or repair will involve buying an entirely new main board, probably from the original vendor (Apple, Dell, etc) since each will have a unique geometry to screw in and unique part placement to match cooling and other unique design elements. I/O port location on the case for example. Dell and Ap
Re:Highly integrated makes repair a farce (Score:4, Interesting)
You know there are any number of DIYers who are quite competent to rework surface mount boards, right? Any one of them might also repair a friend's board as well. There are also professionals who could do it for a lot less than the OEM would charge for a new board.
Look up Louis Rossmann. He shows board repair on Apple hardware after the "Geniuses" told the customer replacement was the only option. He does it for a small fraction of what that replacement would cost. Unfortunately, due to Apple's ever tightening grip on replacement parts, it gets harder every day.
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You know there are any number of DIYers who are quite competent to rework surface mount boards, right?
No. That is a rare skillset.
There are also professionals who could do it for a lot less than the OEM would charge for a new board.
And it's likely to remain a niche business. And you are still basically having to go to some company to repair it for you, unable to do repairs yourself. A friend had computer repair shop. He was an authorized Apple dealer so he could get authentic parts. Sometime he fixed a customer's electronics, sometimes he replaced. It depended upon what he saw when he opened the case. Actual repairs by a 3rd party is nothing new. However, as I mentioned, the skillset necessary is becoming m
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No. That is a rare skillset.
It actually seems to be getting less rare now that so many companies (mostly Chinese) will happily make you a custom PCB for under $10 if you populate it yourself. The needed tools are sold on Amazon now. There are a number of instructional Youtube vids.
There are 5 places in my local area who will happily replace a screen, battery, or USB connector on my Android should I need it. The USB connector is surface mount. Apparently they are able to find people who can do it. They could probably do a lot more if t
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The process of board FAB is now mostly automated. I honestly think much of the difference is that thChinese companies don't have to tithe to the toddlers of Wall Street (The yachts for tots program) so they can do it MUCH cheaper.
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Re: Highly integrated makes repair a farce (Score:3)
"No. That is a rare skillset."
It's less rare now than ever before, and becoming less rare thanks to howtos and cheap equipment.
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No. That is a rare skillset.
It really isn't. It's taught to every engineering undergrad. You likely know someone already who can do SMD rework. I also have an SMD rework station at home and have repaired electronics for my friends.
And it's likely to remain a niche business.
It really isn't. There's one of these businesses in virtually every shopping mall in my city along with quite a few in small corner shops as well.
Honestly your comment makes it sound like you think people can't change the oil in their car because they don't own a fully functioning garage with a car lift. It'
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Funny, the Intel NUC I have has socketed RAM. As does my Framework mainboard that I recently had to replace.
Good correction.
So does mine. I bought their barebones, add your own RAM and Storage. My mind was focused on the CPU when I wrote the above. But I wonder how long the NUC will persist this way. NUC is now owned by ASUS, they might contemplate cost reductions a CPU manufacture like Intel might not?
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I don't think a RAM socket adds a significant cost factor, especially if it means you have to produce different mainboards for a product line. The main reason it is done for GPUs is electrical, but that doesn't apply to normal CPU RAM anywhere as much.
Apple argues that is necessary for their highly integrated Apple Silicon CPUs. The integrated GPU, Neural engine, etc benefitting. Maybe this is more true for Mac Studio with its 3x+ RAM speed compared to Mac mini?
Atari makes consoles? (Score:2)
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Require they provide STL print files for parts (Score:3)
When the arbitrarily make parts unavailable require they provide STL print files for those parts.
Essentially a zero cost for them to do this as they already have highly detailed CAD data for this.
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Right idea but they should provide STEP files and preferably also provide the CAD files themselves. Pretty much any CAD should be able to export STEP.
STEP to STL is an inevitably losy process. STEP is much easier to modify in CAD later while STL makes that difficult to impossible short of using the STL as a template to re-build the CAD.
I don't know about the other slicers, but Prusaslicer can use STEP files for input and do the STL conversion internally.
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Absolutely. I even hate it that people post STLs only on sites like thingiverse. Often I find myself manually recreating the object from the STL just to have a modifiable solid to work with. It's astounding to me how many people use mesh mixers to mixup STLs. I simultaneously cringe and admire them.
Occasionally electronics component makers release STEP files with their data sheets. For things like electrical plugs this is awesome to make sure you really are getting what you think you are. And I've been k
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Yet somehow, FreeCAD does a decent job with the STEP files on McMaster-Carr. I've seen it import STEP files from F360 and Solidworks. Perhaps the problem is Solidworks.
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I too am partial to FreeCAD.
If it can import a file then I can export it and print an object.
Modifying a model that is an actual CAD file is much easier than modifying something that is a mesh/STL file.
NOTE (this is why I wrote the OP as I did):
If you need to print a part that the manufacturer abandoned then the STL is likely to be enough because you are just making a replacement.
Having a CAD file too would be useful if you're making modifications, but that is beyond the original scope of requiring manufact
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Agreed, having the CAD files is best, but since that pre-supposes having the same CAD program available, STEP should be included as well. STL can work in a pinch, but if you have STEP, you can convert to STL easily, but not the other way around.
Often, even re-producing the part will prefer a STEP file at least. Odds are, the original was designed for injection molding and will do better as a 3D print with some modifications that don't affect function but help printability.
I use FreeCAD as the base here both
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When the arbitrarily make parts unavailable require they provide STL print files for those parts.
Really bad idea. There's this fantasy by movies that you can just 3D print everything at home. The reality is most equipment is not 3D printed. It's injection molded and the resulting part is designed for injection molding and may not actually be possible to manufacture via 3D printing. On top of that most people with a 3D printer are capable of creating the model from the physical broken reference they have in front of them.
This is virtue signaling rather than providing an actual solution to the problem. T
So start enforcing the laws, stupid. (Score:1)
The reason the right to repair law exists is because companies were historically trying to lock others into a business model that customers did not want, and then hold them hostage without their consent to these artificial limits that were only created to lock customers into being something the company could now farm for money.
In short these laws exist only because companies publicly acted as if customers were required to be a farmable resource for them, and then they got told "no" by the passing of these l
Do people care? (Score:2, Interesting)
Talking about consumer goods here, no farmers and shit.
I realize that many people on this site care. Put that aside a moment.
When considering the GENERAL PUBLIC, what percentage of them do you suppose care about the repairability of their phones, computers, TVs, washing machines, kitchen appliances and so forth? What percentage of them would actually repair these things, even with a 10/10 repairability score? Please discuss.
Now, I'm not saying that repairability isn't a worthy goal, or something to strive
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I enjoyed your comment until your statement at the end: "Doesn't matter if the people care about repairability or not, they're intellectual betters have a Job to protect them from abuse."
First a note, you should NOT have used the contraction "they're" particularly with your otherwise high IQ of 160.
Now, how the flying F can you think the people whose job it is to protect the population (AKA politicians) are anyone's intellectual betters?
Sorry, nit-picking, I know.
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Look up phone repair. You'll probably find at least a handful of local shops that will do it if you live in a metro area. They apparently get enough customers to remain in business. Now imagine if those places could readily get any replacement part they needed and had the schematics.
Many people would probably do the same for dishwashers, washer and dryer, etc if there were repair people who could easily get the replacement parts at a fair price. Back in the before time when TVs were less proprietary and loc
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I actively through about tv repair when posting.
These days, you can get a 70" TV for under $500.
I'm just guessing, but I bet most people have a smaller TV.
So suppose your smaller than 70" tv needs a repair. You have to spend time to find a place to repair it. Now suppose you do. Then you probably need to get the TV to them. I bet most people can't transport a large tv with their own car, so most people are going to have to rent a moving van or trailer, twice (to get there and back). Call it $100. Then the
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Given an under 70 inch TV (such as mine), I would certainly pursue repair to the backlight if those parts were widely available at a fair retail price. (Naturally, assuming I diagnosed that as the failure). I would willingly do the same for a friend who asked. It would cost less than $50 to do that.
I would be especially inclined to do repair rather than replacement on my TV because it took some shopping to find one lacking the "smart" features that are specifically un-desired. It's even harder to find that
Re: to make part was unavailable (Score:2)
Exactly why I made the original post.
You mention needing a replacement part for a dishwasher and then a washing machine.
Both of those (and you can add refrigerators with water or ice makers to the list) often fail because a simple solenoid operated valve fails and they have it housed in a 3D printable housing that they seem to change on a yearly if not monthly basis.
BTW I am not an appliance repair person, but my friends might argue that point.
I'm just another guy that went to collage to study EE and got te
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But the question was about the GENERAL PUBLIC, not people on Slashdot (;
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I would also help friends with such a thing. None of them are on /.
Others might decide to make it into a business or at least a side hustle. They could easily make some spare bux while saving their customers some money.
The OEMs wouldn't like that, but the laws are supposed to be what's good for the society as a whole and it's economy, not just what makes manufacturers the most money.
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Yeah? And why would I take my iPhone to some dodgy kiosk in the mall versus walking another hundred feet to the actual Apple store; where I know the techs are adequately trained, have the actual Apple tools and spare parts (Which the kiosk may or may not invest in even if Apple is mandated to let them glom onto their supply chain relationships.), the repair is likely for free with Applecare, the company will stand by its work, and they may just swap out my borken kit (This has happened to me three times; t
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Because the Apple Genuses are mostly trained to tell you you need a new one and help transfer the data over after you buy it. Rossman's videos are full of repairs done for vastly less tn Apple wanted and corresponding customers that chose that option. As a bonus, no lost data. The phone repair places obviously do enough business to keep the employees paid and the lights on, so while YOU may not want that option, obviously plenty of people do.
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what percentage of them do you suppose care about the repairability of their phones, computers, TVs, washing machines, kitchen appliances and so forth? What percentage of them would actually repair these things, even with a 10/10 repairability score?
For your first question: not many, most people don't think about it until something breaks. For your second question: lots.
Repairing shit is something that used to be very common. In the last few decades it's mostly disappeared outside of PCs and cell phones, but that doesn't mean that people wouldn't take their stuff in to a repair shop if they could.
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Sorry, my second question should've been more clear:
I meant to ask that even with 10/10 repairability score, what percentage of people do you think would repair stuff THEMSELVES?
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Ditto for my food processor. The main bowl cracked after eight years or so and I was able to easily buy a replacement.
Also, about your claim about 1950's versus 2025 owners manuals, show an actual citation, please, or you're just re-posting lies you found on Reddit.
Takes about a decade (Score:2)
Usually this kind of thing starts off slow but eventually takes over. Might take a decade, but that is the way it works.
Let people know (Score:5, Informative)
Enter companies not adhering to right to repair laws into Louis Rossman's Consumer Rights Wiki ( https://consumerrights.wiki/Ma... [consumerrights.wiki] )
Add Garmin to the list (Score:2)
If you mistakenly delete a file off of a Garmin GPS unit when it's in USB mode, there's no mechanism to restore it properly. Simply copying it over from an identical unit doesn't entirely work. You get an error message even though the unit still works. The only recourse is to send it to Garmin to the tune of $200.
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30 year old HP 48 rated worst iFixit has ever seen (Score:2)
Not everything was actually repair-able in the past either. My beloved HP 48G calculator is starting to have problems after 30 years, but fixing it right is very difficult if not impossible. I think iFixit rated the HP-48 calculators as the worst they'd ever seen for repair-ability. And they've looked at a lot of products over the years. Apple looks good by comparison. Everything is plastic welded shut. If you do manage to open it (I have managed to do this without destroying anything or pealing off th