Is Remote Working Causing an Exodus to the Exurbs? (apnews.com) 88
Last year 30,000 people moved into central Florida's Polk County — more than to any other county in America. Its largest city has just 112,641 people, living a full 35 miles east of the 3.1 million residents in the metropolitan area around Tampa.
But the Associated Press says something similar is happening all over the country: "the rise of the far-flung exurbs." Outlying communities on the outer margins of metro areas — some as far away as 60 miles (97 kilometers) from a city's center — had some of the fastest-growing populations last year, according to the U.S. Census Bureau. Those communities are primarily in the South, like Anna, Texas on the outskirts of the Dallas-Fort Worth metro area; Fort Mill, South Carolina [just 18 miles from North Carolina city Charlotte]; Lebanon, Tennessee outside Nashville; and Polk County's Haines City... [C]ommuting to work can take up to an hour and a half one-way. But [Marisol] Ortega, who lives in Haines City about 40 miles (64 kilometers) from her job in Orlando, says it's worth it. "I love my job. I love what I do, but then I love coming back home, and it's more tranquil," Ortega said.
The rapid growth of far-flung exurbs is an after-effect of the COVID-19 pandemic, according to the Census Bureau, as rising housing costs drove people further from cities and remote working allowed many to do their jobs from home at least part of the week... Recent hurricanes and citrus diseases in Florida also have made it more attractive for some Polk County growers to sell their citrus groves to developers who build new residences or stores...
Anna, Texas, more than 45 miles (72 kilometers) north of downtown Dallas, is seeing the same kind of migration. It was the fourth-fastest growing city in the U.S. last year and its population has increased by a third during the 2020s to 27,500 residents. Like Polk County, Anna has gotten a little older, richer and more racially diverse.
The article points out that in Anna, Texas, "close to 3 in 5 households have moved into their homes since 2020, according to the Census Bureau."
But the Associated Press says something similar is happening all over the country: "the rise of the far-flung exurbs." Outlying communities on the outer margins of metro areas — some as far away as 60 miles (97 kilometers) from a city's center — had some of the fastest-growing populations last year, according to the U.S. Census Bureau. Those communities are primarily in the South, like Anna, Texas on the outskirts of the Dallas-Fort Worth metro area; Fort Mill, South Carolina [just 18 miles from North Carolina city Charlotte]; Lebanon, Tennessee outside Nashville; and Polk County's Haines City... [C]ommuting to work can take up to an hour and a half one-way. But [Marisol] Ortega, who lives in Haines City about 40 miles (64 kilometers) from her job in Orlando, says it's worth it. "I love my job. I love what I do, but then I love coming back home, and it's more tranquil," Ortega said.
The rapid growth of far-flung exurbs is an after-effect of the COVID-19 pandemic, according to the Census Bureau, as rising housing costs drove people further from cities and remote working allowed many to do their jobs from home at least part of the week... Recent hurricanes and citrus diseases in Florida also have made it more attractive for some Polk County growers to sell their citrus groves to developers who build new residences or stores...
Anna, Texas, more than 45 miles (72 kilometers) north of downtown Dallas, is seeing the same kind of migration. It was the fourth-fastest growing city in the U.S. last year and its population has increased by a third during the 2020s to 27,500 residents. Like Polk County, Anna has gotten a little older, richer and more racially diverse.
The article points out that in Anna, Texas, "close to 3 in 5 households have moved into their homes since 2020, according to the Census Bureau."
Yes. Obviously. (Score:5, Insightful)
Re:Yes. Obviously. (Score:5, Insightful)
There's fuck all around and you have to drive a lot to do anything or see anyone.
You might not mind that or not want to see anyone, but you asked why and plenty of people want to do things and see people and don't especially relish driving.
Re:Yes. Obviously. (Score:5, Insightful)
Apparently you're wrong, because the article states these areas are the fastest growing areas in the country.
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Both can be true at the same time.
And sadly, our children, who we have basically put under ho [medium.com]
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Apparently you're wrong,
This is the most hilariously blinkered post. The GP asked "why not". I gave the reasons that I, personally, would not choose to live in an exurb. According to you, I am wrong.
You do not have to have the same desires as me, so if you with to live in what I think is the arse end of nowhere, be my guest. You probably think I live in a rat infested hell hole (only the former part is true).
Lies, damn lies, statistics (Score:1)
Apparently you're wrong, because the article states these areas are the fastest growing areas in the country.
Or the article is wrong or you are misreading it.
It was the fourth-fastest growing city in the U.S. last year and its population has increased by a third during the 2020s to 27,500 residents
Its hard for me to imagine that a town with 27,500 has absorbed even a fraction of the population growth in the country. This is one of those uses of percentages that doesn't really support the conclusion you and the author believe it does.
The real problem is that these exurbs depend on the large urban area to provide a lot of the services and attractions, including jobs, for the people who live there. It requires a bunch of investment in public infrastruct
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Apparently you're wrong, because the article states these areas are the fastest growing areas in the country.
The empty areas with no people are growing at a faster rate than the full areas!
If you fill a large chunk of land with low density housing, you still have a trivial number of people compared to a high density area.
Re: Yes. Obviously. (Score:2)
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Re: Yes. Obviously. (Score:2)
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There's fuck all around and you have to drive a lot to do anything or see anyone.
You might not mind that or not want to see anyone, but you asked why and plenty of people want to do things and see people and don't especially relish driving.
The people you claim don’t especially relish driving, are the same people who waste an entire workweek every month commuting to “things”. Including work.
Those who actually don’t relish driving, don’t fucking do it.
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The people you claim donâ(TM)t especially relish driving
Well, me for one.
are the same people who waste an entire workweek every month commuting to âoethingsâ. Including work.
I do?
Those who actually donâ(TM)t relish driving, donâ(TM)t fucking do it.
I don't.
I don't even own one.
Re:Yes. Obviously. (Score:4, Informative)
Moved to exurb in 2020. While it requires a car... I got a "dream house" for about 30% less than I would have paid "in town." The cost is a 7-mile trip to Starbucks, 20 miles to Costco... and the potential for an hour-long delay returning home due to the surfers or the turtles. I have a grocery store and food trucks within a quarter mile. To go drinking at a bar is 20 minutes on the city bus. The only real pain is it is an hour plus 30 minutes traffic buffer to the airport. It is not what I would have wanted when I was 30, but now it is great!
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To go drinking at a bar is 20 minutes on the city bus.
If you're getting city buses, that doesn't sound very exurban, as generally characterised by not being part of the city area.
Plus also the stores and food within walking distance. Sounds like you live in a small town near a city, rather than an exurb.
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Ok, technically city-and-county busses. The route would actually take 2.5 hours to get inot town, but it is important access for peope that work at the two largetst employers in the area, along with connecting multiple villages.
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Next week, we'll have a story about all the people who moved to the boonies and hate it, and are moving back to the Big City for the very reasons you cite.
Again.
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Next week, we'll have a story about all the people who moved to the boonies and hate it, and are moving back to the Big City for the very reasons you cite.
Again.
I must have missed the first one.
Re:Yes. Obviously. (Score:4, Interesting)
There's fuck all around and you have to drive a lot to do anything or see anyone.
Depends on what you do. Frankly there's fuck all around in most American suburbs too. The American dream seems to be to sleep out in a house with a picket fence, and then "live" somewhere else.
As for "seeing" people these places aren't deserts. There's many people living there. Sure it is harder to move away from friends but you make new ones local to you. There's plenty of opportunity to see people. The small towns often have plenty of facilities as well, so it's not like you're driving over an hour just to go to dinner.
My wife grew up in a country town with a population smaller than the one in TFS and one which was even more remote. Whenever we stayed there we weren't alone, we weren't bored. These places are just as liveable as any other, unless you weekly requirement is to go into a high end Apple store for a chat with a genius.
Re:Yes. Obviously. (Score:4, Informative)
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Sure, sometimes you have to drive a bit to see your friends, but not always, and you can also turn the car the other way and drive just a bit to a lake or waterfall or mountain trail.
This is the biggest reason I don't know how people live without a vehicle. How do you get to the wilderness, like the places no public transit will ever run?
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The average car payment is now $700 a month and that's not even getting into insurance.
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This is the biggest reason I don't know how people live without a vehicle. How do you get to the wilderness, like the places no public transit will ever run?
The only people without a vehicle are those without drivers licenses. I own no car but I'm not without a vehicle. Between car sharing apps and Sixt rental being at the next metro station over I always have the ability to get whatever vehicle I need for the situation I find myself in, be that a trip to the wilderness, or a truck to move house. When I lived in Australia I used to go camping on K'gari (formerly Fraser Island) twice a year, it's a place only accessible with a proper 4x4 (not that shitty thing A
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There's fuck all around and you have to drive a lot to do anything or see anyone.
Fun fact: you'll likely spend MORE time in transit in a city if you want to "see anyone" than in an exurb. There's a really helpful site that lets you plot isochrones: https://www.geoapify.com/isoli... [geoapify.com] - try playing with it, compare the distance you can cover by car and by transit within 30 minutes.
Transit is basically a trap. It's incovenient, slow, and useless.
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Fun fact: you'll likely spend MORE time in transit in a city if you want to "see anyone" than in an exurb.
Depends on your city. You can travel longer distances faster from an exurb, but there are fewer people around. Also, you basically need to go to someone's house, since they aren't amenity rich rather than meet in the middle, which effectively doubles the distance.
Plus if you like a drink and your court ordered interlocked ignition is working properly, well that's not so good.
Transit is basically a trap.
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Transit is basically a trap. It's incovenient, slow, and useless.
In America, sure. Well except New York. And some bits of SF. Also surprisingly some of Carrollton, TX.
Depends where in NY too. Manhattan? Great. Central and southwest Brooklyn? Not bad. Lots of northeastern Brooklyn and Queens, not so much, unless you really like late, overcrowded buses. And the thing with getting anywhere from LGA. JFK is better, but I think a respectable argument can be made that the best transit-connected airport in New York is in Jersey.
Chicago is actually fairly well done. The trains go directly to the airports, connecting through downtown, with relatively safe and moderately c
Re:Yes. Obviously. (Score:4, Insightful)
You can afford more home and more land further out, so why not?
Because it doesn't fit the narrative that people need to be caged like rats in cramped, overcrowded blocks of concrete, such as this [boredpanda.com], with high temperatures because of lack of greenspace. The narrative doesn't foresee people wanting to walk out their back door onto grass or lay out under their trees, which helps to keep temperatures down, and not bump into their next door neighbors every time they open the door.
Re:Yes. Obviously. (Score:4, Informative)
While I'm sure you'll find a lot of people agreeing with your stance, would it also not be like that current pace of life is deemed not fun anymore? Living an hour, or one and a half hour of a large(r) city, it would seem to me, not insurmountable.
But you'll have more room to do your thing. See more "untamed" nature happening around you on your lot. Having space to stroll around. Or have the whole family over and that not resulting in lots of infighting as everyone doesn't need to be in each other's proverbial hair.
Now, city life and having almost anything in walk-able distance has its own charm. I happen to like that, but I sure wouldn't want to impose that on anyone who wouldn't like that.What I like about the walk-able concept is that there is a lot less external headache to deal with. And even though it may not seem like it, it is actually a lot less noisy too.
This concepts invites a lot of what is good from life outside of the city into the city. Definitely not all good things, but more than you would expect.
Now I'll stop ranting on about that concept. Life out of the city slows down to a much more manageable pace. That usually results in more piece of mind and not enough people dare to put a price on that for their own sake. Or perhaps even acknowledge that it has a value.
What I expect is happening, is that the pandemic and remote working made a lot of people realize that piece of mind is much more valuable to them than they initially thought.
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I'm beginning to come to the conclusion that if someone starts taking about "the narrative" and aren't engaging in literary criticism they might be a bit of a dingus.
Aaaaand well you appear to have decided that the only two possible choices are the sprawl of American suburbs turned up to 11 or the closest we have to mega city one.
I do not live in an apartment block like that or indeed an apartment at all. But also I live in walking distance of shops, good public transit. How every dies that work??
Re: Yes. Obviously. (Score:2)
The burbs are soulless and lonely and the peak of inefficiency.
Why would I want so much house that my precious spare time is wasted on maintaining it?
Re: Yes. Obviously. (Score:2)
Re: Yes. Obviously. (Score:2)
Come visit my neighborhood. After everyone leaves for work at places like Microsoft, the landscapers and maintenance crews descend upon the place. I don't think many of the people living around me have ever picked up a rake or pushed a mower.
Re: Yes. Obviously. (Score:2)
You probably wouldn't. Some people like maintaining a homez though. Even take pride in it. And not having to step over junkies to get In and out is just a bonus
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You can afford more home and more land further out, so why not?
Or just, afford any home! I'm a teacher, and a few years back had offers at a few elite independent schools. Most of them were in downtown of large cities. Couldn't possibly afford to live even with 30 minutes of the schools that were in Dallas or Baltimore. I would have totally ended up in places like Anna or Ennis if I chose Dallas, and... maybe somewhere in Pennsylvania had I chosen Baltimore?
It's a trap (Score:1)
Remote jobs are more common now, but they're not infinite. I've seen plenty of folks trapped in my shitty town back when I lived there, and moved to a bigger city for work. There's a reason why big cities draw people.
The problem is our transportation network. It's not capable of supporting the population
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High density housing provides enough density for effective mass transit, walking and bicycling all of which are several orders of magnitude more space efficient than cars. You need a better transportation network which means something other than cars.
The car companies won't let us have that (Score:2)
Without a major political realignment we are stuck with cars as our main form of transportation. And that means people are going to block high density housing because our transportatio
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A bunch of Europeans are complaining how it's happening over there.
Possibly: the car lobby with its capture of the press is strong here. After ~60 years of relentlessly pro-car legislation where anything that prioritises any other transport under any circumstances is branded a "war on motorists". Cyclists are of course a particularly favourite group to demonize, and it has been so relentless and so continuous that it's become part of the "truth" and even elements of the left wing press indulge in it.
I can'
Re: It's a trap (Score:2)
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Or afford a house at all.
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You can purchase or rent very affordable houses or apartments conveniently close to the vibrant, exciting center of most American large cities. For example, the Skid Row neighborhood of Los Angeles. So, what's the problem here?
Hove fun with those HOAs! (Score:5, Interesting)
HOAs are great! You guys will love them! Imagine the worst most awful people on Nextdoor and now give them power to fine you and even repossess your home. You'll love it!
Now... Home prices in the awful inner scary cities with no HOAs to protect your home values should drop aaaaaaaaany day now....
Re: Hove fun with those HOAs! (Score:4, Insightful)
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You don't know what an HOA is, do you.
That's okay. Don't google it. It's really best you don't know.
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I mean, at least condo/apartment boards make some sense. You are actually sharing spaces. HOAs exist only to give Karen's power over their neighbors. ... and racism. Of course suburban HOAs literally exist as a way to legally continue racial segregation.
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Either way, if you aren't on your HOA's board (condo or suburban neighborhood) you are a fool.
Re: Hove fun with those HOAs! (Score:2)
What are you nattering on about? There are plenty of houses in the suburbs being sold without the onerous requirement of a tyrannical HOA. The last two homes I have purchased are literally 10 minutes out of town and have no HOA. I refuse to consider any property that has an HOA.
Sure thereâ(TM)s an HOA in those developments where every third house is the same and theyâ(TM)re all built like shit by the lowest bidder. But that is not the only option out there.
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Re: Hove fun with those HOAs! (Score:2)
Home prices in the awful inner scary cities with no HOAs
The city council effectively becomes your HOA.
Re: Hove fun with those HOAs! (Score:2)
City councils have to follow a lot more restrictive laws. HOAs basically don't.
It's hard to get away from HOAs (Score:2)
Hell, mega corps are taking over trailer parks.
And that's before you talk about NIMBYs. You can't really have high density housing when cars are involved. Build a 500 unite apartment where everyone needs a car and suddenly you've got all those people trying to go to work at once. NIMBYs know that so they fight against high density housin
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Repeat after me, "A home is not an investment"
I hope you don't advise real people.
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Perhaps we don't actually disagree though, a home is theoretically not a "short term" investment, though till you die is a bit over the top. Over the long term however real estate has performed very well. Not as good as the stock market, but you get a house to use so that is a bonus. Much of most peoples wealth when they retire, including mi
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The only difference between a good HOA and a bad HOA are the people on the board. All it takes is the neighbourhood busybody to sneak their way onto the board and then drive everyone else out to replace them with other neighbourhood busybodies.
And you know the people - the one person on a street with too much time on their hands who complains about everything and everybody. HOAs are magnets for people like those who then get on the board and then start issuing fines and eve
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HOAs? There are homes without them.
It is the crime and parking, stupid... (Score:1, Interesting)
One reason for urban flight is simple. Fewer drug-crazed people trying to kick down your door to rob your place, or come after you. Especially with the latest Tik-Tok craze of trying to kick down people's doors for views. Do you want your children playing near piles of syringes, or growing up with the word "strays" meaning bullets as opposed to a random puppy? Since many US cities do nothing to deal with crime, if not defunding police in order to ring a dinner bell for addicts to come and take up resid
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Especially with the latest Tik-Tok craze of trying to kick down people's doors for views.
Must be a localized thing. In a lot of places in the US, you do that and the last thing on the video would be the bullets about to pierce your chest.
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How about Elvis shaking his hips on tv, scandalous!
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Well that’s a bit sexist. Are there no dangerous women too?
Re: White Flight - to escape the Democrat-caused C (Score:2)
There is no such thing as a dangerous woman. Only dangerous men. That is why women choose the bear over the man. Men are evil. Stupid and evil. The mainstream media and social media tell us so.
Pay no mind to the growing list of women educators getting arrested for having sex with their underage students and absolutely do not make note of the sentencing disparities between men convicted of the same crimes.
No, no. Men bad. Women good. Got it? Good. Glad we got that sorted out.
Re: White Flight - to escape the Democrat-caused C (Score:3)
Re: White Flight - to escape the Democrat-caused C (Score:2)
Nope. The migrants are all driving pickup trucks with gardening equipment around my town. The sucessful ones will see their grandkids going to better colleges than yours will attend.
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Exurbs have bigger gardens to maintain, win win.
exodus (Score:3, Interesting)
Re: exodus (Score:2)
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>If you live close to people you have to somewhat do what they want you to do.
Yep. I'm in my 4th home since I stopped living with my parents many decades ago. Every place has been a bit further from the city with a bit more space between me and the neighbours than than the one before it.
The closer your neighbours, the more potential for friction. Life's too short to be dealing with everyone else's crap interfering with your personal time in your personal space.
Reverse exodus already happening (Score:2)
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Or there is actual supply, unlike pretty much everywhere except Florida and Texas.
Needs more growth boundaries and government restricting expansion of government services and utilities.
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Great (Score:3)
Great! Let's bring new life to small town USA.
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We've got choices, and that's good (Score:5, Insightful)
So not everyone wants to live in high density urban areas? People value different things? And they're able to act on their values? Good.
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This is exactly what I like to point out when people do that "But everyone needs space! And cities suck!"
Just like there are people who want their 100 acres and to never see another person, there are also family's like mine where we adore the city. We've lived in suburbs, we've lived rural, and we've lived big city, and I will take the city every single time over anything else. In fact when we look at maybe moving we only even look at cities larger than our current one.
Which is fine, choices are fantastic
Risky move (Score:2)
I hear stories about those who bought a 2 hr commute away from the office during the pandemic. Some were told by upper management that full remote work was for reals here to stay. They made life affecting choices based on wishful thinking. Since then, employers have put on 3 and 4 day in-office mandates and have recently started to enforce them.
The exurbs look less attractive unless you have an apartment in town (a pied-à-terre) to bunk for a couple of nights and a salary to afford that.
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Most office workers were not remote before 2020. Many did move far out and ran up property values in the exurbs and towns near cities. The top brass increasingly wants people back in the office.
The Federal government here in Canada is forcing people 75 miles from the nearest office to commute in 3 days/wk. For 1.5 years it was 2 days/wk and not enforced. Now they mean it. I expect the USG to order full return to office in late Jan. Many are going to be forced to move back.
A classmate in Toronto told me a co
Other reasons (Score:2)
Not sure how true this is in the USA, but in Canada far-flung exurbs are about the only place near a major city where housing is remotely affordable. It's a trap, though... we're building massive car-dependent sprawl in a completely unsustainable way, and in 20-30 years time when all the infrastructure needs replacing or repairing, we're going to be in a huge financial hole. At that point, either the exurb property tax rates will skyrocket or they'll be left with crumbling infrastructure and become awful
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Suburbs are not Exurbs (Score:2)
I think people need to be clear that there are really three categories here;
small towns which are down the road from a city and have their own urban area,
suburbs that are attached to a large city and have local shopping centers etc
and exurbs which are rural development that is not attached to any urban amenities - aka house in the country.
The responses here seem to conflate all three. But they each have their own character and problems. What is shared is the hollowing out of urban areas with establish
Congratulations 'Murica! (Score:2)
They're the worst places in the world to live because they have all the worst features of both suburbs & living in the countryside & none of the benefits. If you have an active mind &/or want a social life, don't go anywhere near these places.