Credit Cards Don't Require Signatures. So Why Do We Still Sign? (msn.com) 130
An anonymous reader shares a report: The big financial moments in life used to be marked with a flourish of a pen. Buying a house. A car. Breakfast. Not anymore. Visa, Mastercard, Discover and American Express dropped the requirement to sign for charges like restaurant checks in 2018. They don't look at our scribbles to verify identity or stop fraud. Taps, clicks and electronic signatures took over the heavy lifting for many everyday purchases -- and many contracts, loan applications and even Social Security forms. The John Hancock was written off as a relic useful mainly to inflate the value of sports memorabilia. But signatures didn't die.
We continue to be asked to sign with ink on paper or using fingers on touch screens at many restaurants, bars and other businesses. And people keep signing card receipts out of habit -- even when there is no blank space for it -- because it feels weird not to, payment networks and retail groups say. "Traditions have this odd way of sticking around," said Doug Kantor, general counsel of the National Association of Convenience Stores. Signatures had been used to verify identity and agree to financial terms for centuries. Banks kept records of customer signatures to check against, but the sheer number of transactions and advancements in technology eventually made that impractical.
By the 1980s, charges could be processed electronically. Signatures were still used in cases of fraud or stolen cards. Banks could call merchants and ask them to present a signed receipt. Yet given how easy signatures are to forge, they proved limited as a fraud prevention tool. Now there are more sophisticated ways to determine whether cards are stolen or misused, according to Mark Nelsen, global head of consumer payments at Visa.
We continue to be asked to sign with ink on paper or using fingers on touch screens at many restaurants, bars and other businesses. And people keep signing card receipts out of habit -- even when there is no blank space for it -- because it feels weird not to, payment networks and retail groups say. "Traditions have this odd way of sticking around," said Doug Kantor, general counsel of the National Association of Convenience Stores. Signatures had been used to verify identity and agree to financial terms for centuries. Banks kept records of customer signatures to check against, but the sheer number of transactions and advancements in technology eventually made that impractical.
By the 1980s, charges could be processed electronically. Signatures were still used in cases of fraud or stolen cards. Banks could call merchants and ask them to present a signed receipt. Yet given how easy signatures are to forge, they proved limited as a fraud prevention tool. Now there are more sophisticated ways to determine whether cards are stolen or misused, according to Mark Nelsen, global head of consumer payments at Visa.
Not been asked to sign in awhile (Score:2)
Re:Not been asked to sign in awhile (Score:5, Funny)
I think the only business I regularly have sign for a CC transaction is my car dealer for whatever reason, and it's still an electronic POS system.
You may think that term means "point of sale," but all too often it doesn't.
Re: Not been asked to sign in awhile (Score:2)
At my work SOL means Speed of Light.
Like, the test systems are fully in use today, you're SOL.
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You may think that term means "point of sale," but all too often it doesn't.
Yup, and thus fpos_t is a data type for Microsoft products.
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Many stores will refuse your card if it isn't signed or the signature doesn't match what's printed on the card. Low level of security to be sure, but it is a quick check against stolen cards. Especially in the USA where we use chip-but-no-PIN (ie, really stupid). My friend actually paints "Ask for ID" on the front of his :-)
The signature is for legal reasons, you can dispute charges more easily if you can show that the signature obviously isn't yours. Sure, it doesn't prevent forgeries, but 99.9% of cred
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Many stores will refuse your card if it isn't signed
I haven't handed my card to a cashier in years. I insert it directly into the POS terminal. The cashier doesn't see it.
or the signature doesn't match what's printed on the card.
I last saw that happen more than twenty years ago.
Especially in the USA where we use chip-but-no-PIN (ie, really stupid).
Chip-n-sign is stupid, but credit cards are stupid in general, and many countries have replaced them. They make purchases with their phones using 3FA.
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I don't even own a card that is signed on the back. I would argue that I don't want my signature stolen if my physical card stolen.
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"chip-but-no-PIN"
Apparently you don't shop at Kroger stores. For instance.
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It always shocks me how backwards the US is on this. I don't remember having to sign for anything in decades.
And even back then nobody looked at signatures. I used to test it by doing things like drawing a picture or writing weird messages instead of my name. I was sometimes tempted to sign it something like void / refused / invalid, but I worried that might be interpreted as an attempt at fraud ;)
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I have not signed a CC receipt for anything in years. The only time I can recall handing my card to anyone rather than just tapping the machine was for a very upmarket hotel and they still did it in front of me.
Where "we" is people with US-based credit cards (Score:5, Informative)
Other countries moved to chip-and-pin years ago, leaving only US-issued cards that are chip-and-signature.
Re:Where "we" is people with US-based credit cards (Score:4, Interesting)
The ironic thing is that in 2015, the US was supposed to move to a chip-and-PIN system, and any merchants that didn't move to it would be financially responsible for chargebacks.
I don't understand why this hasn't happened yet. Even though we are transitioning to EMV transactions, it would be nice to have chip and PIN as protection in the interim.
For CNP transactions like mail order stuff, a while back, there was a test of credit cards that had a long lasting battery, and would show a six digit code on an e-ink display. Had those taken off, those would have been quite useful, as the code would be a dynamic OTP second factor.
Re: Where "we" is people with US-based credit card (Score:3)
My bank has started a new scheme in which a second CVV number is available in the app, which rotates every 12 hours, so you donâ(TM)t have to give out the real code.
I could see a future variant where the on-card code rotates. Could be done without any extra support from merchants or payment providers unlike an extra code. That would need 3DSecure support - which not all sites do.
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I haven't signed a card receipt for a long, loooong time (maybe in the early 2000's ? I really don't recall).
Today, everywhere is either insert card and tap your pin, or just pay with cards (or phones) with NFC.
I myself don't use NFC for payment, I don't think it's secure, especially in uncivilized countries like mine. Heard some horror stories from friends who lost their card, only to find out thousands missing from their acc
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Was about to ask where in the world are signatures still used for credit cards.
At restaurants they often have a receipt with a signature required. (US)
As far as I can surmise, the tip is added after the card is first checked, you write out the tip and sum it up, sign and there ya go.
Why? I know that at least where I've ever worked, the tip wasn't a covered expense - not surprising because I tip around 100 percent. So that will separate the two. Is that the reason? Maybe. Dunno.
I do think the story is indicative of a really slow work day.
Re:Where "we" is people with US-based credit cards (Score:4, Informative)
Credit cards issued in Australia don't even have a signature strip anymore.
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I cannot recall the last time I saw anyone look at the signature on a card in Australia. I just looked at mine and most of them it's completely worn off anyway.
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My card from Commbank from this month has a signature panel and the number is printed in a font I can clearly read from 3 meters away. Since it is their common BIN, someone would only need to remember the last 6 digits. At least the expire date is a smaller font but the CVC is right next to to it. The security cameras of every grocery store and bar will pick up all the details.
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I've had cards from smaller banks and non-bank providers and nothing on the front. Not even the embossed numbers, and that seems safer. Both cards are in the newer portrait format. Maybe the big four banks in Oz are lagging?
I put a bit of painters tape over the CVC/CCV so cameras can't pick it up.
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It's a problem when you go abroad, and when people visit the US.
I had a similar issue in Japan some years ago when they were still using signatures, and Europe was chip&pin. Often my bank would decline transactions that I signed for, so I got into the habit of asking them to use the PIN number instead. Fortunately now they don't seem to be signing anymore. Presumably Europeans visiting the US have similar issues.
US card holders visiting PIN countries, which I think is most of the developed world now, ar
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Other countries moved to chip-and-pin years ago, leaving only US-issued cards that are chip-and-signature.
Aren't you glad you don't live here among the Neanderthals?
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Other countries moved to chip-and-pin years ago, leaving only US-issued cards that are chip-and-signature.
To be fair, even the US largely uses chip and pin these days. I don't think I've signed the back of my card in a good 15 years. It's only some places in the US that won't accept my UK or AU issued cards, not a problem anywhere else in the world developed enough to find ATMs in. OTOH, plenty of times I've be told by Americans "ATM doesn't work bro" only to use it and find out it works just fine.
The US will adopt it, eventually. To quote Winston Churchill, "you can always count on the Americans to do the r
Re:Where "we" is people with US-based credit cards (Score:4, Interesting)
US banking is like rest-of-the-world 40 years ago.
In the US, *everything* is chargeable - having an account, not having an account, making a withdrawal, a deposit, a transfer, a payment, a cheque (in or out), having an overdraft, going over an agreed maximum balance, walking into the bank, phoning the bank, using an ATM machine, using the online banking - all of it is chargeable. Hell, they probably charge you getting some credit interest and for using those pens on chains and not bringing your own (and if you do bring your own, they'll charge you a corkage fee). Internet banking is really very basic - for most "big" things you have to physically visit the bank and present a load of bits of paper to get anything done. Oh, and the bank is only open from 9-5 monday-friday, with an hour for lunch. Good luck if you happen to work the same hours or just feel like doing some banking on a saturday.
The US likes to paint itself as being advanced and free-thinking, "the future" and whatever else. For whatever reason though, banking remains firmly in the last century.
Here in the rest of the world, we can live our entire lives without actually paying any bank fees for anything. Hell, you could probably go your entire life without ever actually going into a bank for any purpose. We get to use electronic transfers almost instantly (no cheques anywhere!), chip and pin has been here for decades, contactless is all the thing now and we're not liable for fraud on our accounts (and just in... we get reimbursed if we're scammed out of money!). Sometimes being quaint and parochial has its benefits.
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How the hell do you end up with 40 credit cards?
Do you collect them?
I'm assuming they are all deactivated?
Signing is stupid (Score:2)
I hate signing, it's stupid and meaningless. I don't sign the back of the card, and i'm much happier using a pin for authentication of transactions.
On the few occasions i've been asked to sign i just do something totally random and never once has it been a problem.
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You can dispute almost any charge. The snag is if you do this multiple times then you get flagged as suspicious and they may stop doing it. Thus, disput the charges then cancel the card and ask for a new one because it may have been stolen (or just the number was stolen, as so many online purchases don't need any information except what is printed on the card!).
Credit card companies, at least in America, are based on the low security model, where they will budget for a certain amount of fraud loss as long
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Credit card companies, at least in America, are based on the low security model, where they will budget for a certain amount of fraud loss as long as it is less money than would be needed to implement good security.
The problem for MC/Visa is that a more secure and sensible system would eliminate the cards and put them out of business.
Credit cards are stupid. Last year, they cost Americans $260 billion ($225 billion in merchant fees and $35 billion in fraud).
An average family of four loses $3,000 per year.
The only reason people use credit cards is because it's just how it's done.
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No, I don't. Because I don't bank with an asshole company that tries to duck each and every liability they have for not properly implementing EMV chip+pin.
The few times my wife and I have had to deal with fraud transactions, it has been:
1. call bank customer service line
2. tell them there is fraud
3. tell them which charges are fraudulent
4. attest on the phone that they are not charges made by any authorized cardholder while they are recording
5. meanwhile the existing pre-authorized recurring charges still
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Technically, the card's not valid if you don't sign the back. It probably says so on the card.
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Technically, the card's not valid if you don't sign the back. It probably says so on the card.
This requirement ruins the whole validity of a card signature as proof-it's you: all the thief has to do is copy the signature from the back of the card.
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Which is harder to do for the average crook than simply putting HIS OWN signature on the back of your unsigned card, then writing HIS OWN signature on whatever slip he's asked to do so on.
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In my entire adult life, I've been asked about a blank signature panel a total of one time, and the merchant handed me a pen and asked me to sign it before they would run the transaction. Biggest shock ever: the signature on the card absolutely matched the signature on the receipt, as they had about 15 seconds of time pass between both being signed.
The signature panel is absolutely useless and nobody looks at it. How would they even look at it with an EMV card where I put the card in the slot, and then pu
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In America that makes it a legal agreement (Score:4, Insightful)
In the US you can dispute any charge on your card. If you win the dispute you get your money back. I had to do this after returning a crappy cell phone years ago and not getting the 1st months fees back after going back to my old carrier.
For small amounts the business just eats it. But try doing that with something on a business card for $10k, $20k or $30k and up. The business will sue you and present the signed receipt in court. Assuming it gets that far, since they'll present it to the credit card company first.
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Sure, but your signature has never needed to be your own name. It just needed to be "yours" and replicable.
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Sure, but your signature has never needed to be your own name. It just needed to be "yours" and replicable.
Close, but no. It does not need to be replicable.
The mark only needs to have been made by you.
The mark itself does not, and has never, contained proof of if you are bound by it. Instead, in a dispute the Court simply has to decide if it thinks you made the mark or not.
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Close, but no. It does not need to be replicable.
Not anymore. But, for various different purposes or places, it used to be needed.
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Don't just say, "YER RONG," what did I get wrong, and what do you think the truth is?
Tip: I'm not wrong, and whatever your friend said while you were high and talking about it was mindless blathering.
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Did you even reply to the right message? Or do you think there has never been a point in time where signatures needed to be replicable for any reason?
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Re:In America that makes it a legal agreement (Score:5, Informative)
Err no, not remotely. You don't need a signature to make a legally binding agreement in most of the world including the USA. There's no legal basis for requiring a signature.
Signatures are for acceptance of written terms, i.e. when you buy a house (not with a credit card, but actually with a written contract). All purchase contracts done on credit card are implied contracts that require no signature from any party. The only time you need to sign something is if there are additional terms beyond an implied purchase agreement which need to be agreed - e.g. when you purchase a car it often comes with some kind of additional warranty or added services.
The business will sue you and present the signed receipt in court.
That's because you signed it. They don't need to present the signed receipt in court, a confirmation receipt upon entering a PIN is more than sufficient evidence to show the court that a purchase agreement was made. The purchase contract is implied.
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Indeed.
In Canada, a "thumbs up" emoji is legally binding and likely would be in America as well.
Canadian judge rules thumbs-up emoji is legally binding [theguardian.com]
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that's why. Not sure about the rest of the world, but in the US your signature makes it a legally binding agreement. In the US you can dispute any charge on your card
You can with a credit card anywhere in the rest of the first world and we don't use signatures.
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A signature is a form of written acceptance - which is harder to dispute, but verbal agreement or conduct (accepting and using a good or service) is just as binding. A handshake is also just as binding as a signature.
Indeed. Specifically in this case the act of handing over credit card and receiving a receipt forms an implied contract regardless of what process was actually gone through.
Not happening almost anywhere else (Score:2)
This is, I guess, an USA thing. Never in my adult life (and we are talking pre-2000 level here) was I asked for a signature for any debit- or credit-card purchase, online or offline.
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It's not all that required in the USA either. I've had to sign on occasion, but it's increasingly rare. And at the sporting goods store the signature was required for the hunting license which is also the receipt.
I never sign it (Score:2)
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The ink just fades and smudges off anyway.
I put a piece of clear Scotch Magic tape over my signature on the card; keeps it pristine. Never any problems with readers either.
On in third world countries (Score:2)
The whole signing thing is some weird US or possibly North America thing because they are basically a third world country when it comes to this.
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Please don't lump Canada and Mexico in with the US when it comes to anything financial. :) They're a third world unto themselves when it comes to banking. Canada moved to chip+pin back in the 90s, and enabled NFC (tap) transactions in the early 2000s. (Not sure about Mexico, but considering how backward the US is, pretty much anything is more forward-looking.)
I mean, Americans think Apple invented tap-to-pay, which tells you a lot about how far behind they are in payment tech.
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The funny thing is, at least some American stores had machines that would do NFC transactions, but they didn't know it.
I tapped my card at a place in Philadelphia years ago. The cashier thought it was witchcraft.
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Meaningless rituals die slowly (Score:3)
Not different for security rituals. See, for example, all the idiots that still require you to change your passwords regularly, despite it not being recommended. This stupidity will likely go on for another 10 years or longer.
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Not different for security rituals. See, for example, all the idiots that still require you to change your passwords regularly, despite it not being recommended. This stupidity will likely go on for another 10 years or longer.
Our insurance requires us to force password changes regularly. They're finally catching up to a decade and a half ago on security issues. Maybe they'll reach the 2020s about the time AI replaces us all.
I've been drawing dicks for a decade (Score:3)
Put whatever you want in the signature block. No one even notices.
Haven't signed since the early 2000s (Score:2)
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Tap to pay annoys the hell out of me, its no longer 2FA, but everywhere else on matter how low risk seems to be ramming 2FA down my throat, but access to my bank account hell no we would not want to slow down my spending by a few seconds.
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Tap to pay is restricted in capacity and fraud is legally protected against in most countries in the world. For example where I live now tap and pay is restricted to 50EUR and 7 out of 8 transactions. PIN will be required for all others. Where I lived previously it was $100 and random PIN requests. In this previous place I lived I also had legal protection, and had to exercise it at one point as well when someone stole my card and then used tap and pay a few times in quick succession.
I reported the card sto
Forge (Score:2)
>"Yet given how easy signatures are to forge,"
Anyone can forge a signature. What is being implied in that statement is that signatures have little value because forgery exists. And that is not true. Not if you are talking about a wet signature. Might also not be true if it is a digitized one, as long as the pad can sense pressure and has a high-enough resolution. A signature expert in court can differentiate genuine from forged pretty reliability.
Has little to do with if it should be used or not wit
One of those are not like the others (Score:2)
In most of the world we don't sign our credit cards, but you can be damn certain that we would sign a purchase contract on a house, and nothing Visa or Mastercard do will change that.
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My daughter has just bought a house and all of the contracts are 100% electronic - no paper is signed anywhere.
Places where tips are a thing usually want it. (Score:3)
If it's tap-and-go then there's less opportunity to present a tip box to fill in.
Around here, places that don't regularly involve tips tend to not require a signature. But where tips are anticipated, then a signature is almost always "required". Its Oh So Convenient that you've got the pen and are about to write just next to the tip box.
The card I use most often doesn't even have a signature sample. Most card machines will print "Signature not required" but tip-anticipated places will often still ask for a signature in a bit of spare space.
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All the tap-to-pay terminals around here present a tip option first where you can choose a pre-set %, enter a custom %, enter a custom $ amount, or skip. It displays the new total, you click OK, and then tap the terminal to authorise the payment.
Signatures aren't required for anything payment related in Canada. Signatures are required for paper contracts.
Because America is 30 years behind everyone else (Score:3)
The fact we had signatures on credit cards for so long is a "feature". Europe was using chip and pin for years before we even considered it. And then when we did we just did the chip and no pin. The reason? Because it is harder to do chip and pin so the companies didn't want to do it. Since our government just lets companies do what they want and puts very few requirements on them, even when it comes to things like credit card, they do the thing that is easiest and cheapest for them. Sure, it is not as secure, but that is something for the merchants and customers to deal with, not them. Credit card gets stolen? Chip and pin stops people from using it. Instead we still have rampant theft because no one cares about the signature so when a credit card is stolen they have until someone notices and shuts it off to use it.
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They didn't in Canada either. Mine was $100 for ages, I think they raised it to $150 at some point during COVID. The GP either has no idea what their limit is or asked for it to be that high. Or maybe their spouse did.
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In UK, if you've tapped a few times (say 5), you should expect to be asked for the PIN, usually at the most annoying time because that's funny. Then that counter resets. No, the act of using a ATM (which requires PIN) 20 minutes beforehand so you have drinking vouchers in your pocket as a backup doesn't reset the counter, because that's also funny.
During the lockdowns, this was suspended to prevent some naughty virus getting transferred from the slime on the keypad and killing you. At the same time the maxi
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That, by definition, is no longer chip and pin if it doesn't require pin. It sounds like Canada has gone the way of the US in not requiring anything.
Got my contactless payment refused once (Score:2)
I was trying to make a standard contactless payment at a manned till at a local supermarket one day. The cashier spotted no signature and said I was not allowed to make a payment because card is not signed. Wouldn't budge even I explained the whole purpose of a signature and how moot the point was given it was a contactless payment about to be made. Threatened to call security on me so I just left. Wasn't worth a fight. Still, a very peculiar situation.
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so I just left. Wasn't worth a fight.
So, you let the moron have a default win reinforcing her own stupidity. Should have let her call security. Let her share how much of an absolute idiot she is and that she is refusing a legal transaction for no (legal or valid) reason.
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Odds are good that she was enforcing company policy.
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I would definitely just pull out my phone or watch at that point and tap it on the machine. If they want me to sign a wristwatch, I wish them luck.
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If they want me to sign a wristwatch,
I have a couple of cards. One says "Not valid unless signed". Others say nothing. So I suppose it depends on what your wristwatch says.
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It says the current time right now.
Asian country still rely on chop stamps (Score:2)
For legal documents. And you have to registered your stamp with the government to make it legal.
IIRC, it's because... (Score:3)
...credit card processors charge merchants different fees for cards physically processed by them vs cards used online or on the phone. A signature is supposed to be proof that the card was physically presented. It's poor proof
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...credit card processors charge merchants different fees for cards physically processed by them vs cards used online or on the phone. A signature is supposed to be proof that the card was physically presented. It's poor proof
And it's something chip and pin (EMV) had solved over 2 decades ago. If the chip was physically present, the machine will have the authentication details off the chip. Some bank statements even tell you if a transaction was physical or online.
I write "Check ID" on the back of all my cards (Score:2)
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Security theater (Score:2)
Similar to SMS based 2FA. They use it because they've always done it that way, security be damned.
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Similar to SMS based 2FA. They use it because they've always done it that way, security be damned.
SMS-based 2FA is a far more meaningful security feature than signatures on credit card receipts. SMS is crappy 2FA, but it's better than nothing. Signatures on card receipts are nothing.
You can't forge my signature. (Score:4, Funny)
I write it differently every time. You cannot predict what I will do, I am a living one time pad generator.
Nobody signs in the UK, except... (Score:2)
The only times anyone signs a money transfer in the UK, is when the power has failed and someone's dug out a carbon-copy bank card swipe machine from the deepest recesses of the supermarket manager's office, or when writing a cheque for a children's after-school club.
The word "receipt" must mean something different in En:US because I have no idea why anyone would sign one, and I'm over 50 years old.
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The only times anyone signs a money transfer in the UK, is when the power has failed and someone's dug out a carbon-copy bank card swipe machine from the deepest recesses of the supermarket manager's office
My Mastercard doesn't have anything embossed on it, so no luck using it with a swipe machine...
Stopping chargebacks before they happen (Score:2)
One practical thing a signature can do, is stop a chargeback before it happens. When a customer complains that a charge wasn't authorized by them, the business can show them the signed receipt and ask if that is their signature. In many cases, on seeing their signature in ink, people may back off and admit it is theirs.
So although the signature is not a legal or contractual requirement, some businesses may find it useful to stop situations from escalating.
i don't - no one cares (Score:2)
I literally don't sign anything, anywhere for credit cards. The majority of my CCs don't even have signature strips on the back anyway. I just leave the signature field blank. No one cares.
The only time I have to sign isn't related to a CC, but when I talk to a live teller at my credit union and get cash out, they require I sign for the cash on their little digital LCD signature strip.
My credit cards that have a signature strip I write "Ask for ID" on there instead. I have only been asked for ID 2 times in
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I've had credit and debit cards for the last ~28 years.
I've never signed one.
It was queried only once in all that time and they still continued the transaction anyway.
Signatures, and handwriting, are dead. Cash is dead. Landline phones are dead. Most "bricks and mortar" stores are dead. Lots of things are dead. Because there are far superior alternatives that, by choice, the majority of people have and use already.
But we still keep beating them like a dead horse.
Even *talking* about contactless cards outdated (Score:3)
Never mind chip and pin or signatures.
I went to Prague from my home in the UK recently. I didn’t bother taking a wallet. I just used Apple Pay everywhere, and it worked fine, including for street food vendors. I absolutely never take my wallet out with me in London. There’s just no need
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I just used Apple Pay everywhere, and it worked fine, including for street food vendors.
Welcome ... to the machine. Pink Floyd
Signing The Card (Score:2)
Not as bad as "signatures" in PDF documents (Score:4, Interesting)
Meanwhile outside North America ... (Score:2)
...We stopped signing decades ago
Roll the dice (Score:2)
Here in the U.S. it's always fun when the restaurant waitstaff takes your credit card and disappears around the corner to process it.
Please Select A Tip Option (Score:2)
Since the Great Covid Reopening, several more businesses now ask you to add a tip (write in or tap the tablet). Acknowledging the tip with a signature helps reduce Reg E claims being ruled in the card holder's name, since you're signing to acknowledge the math you just did.
Re: Seldom for big things, frequent for trivial th (Score:2)
You still have to sign passports.
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Legally, this is as valid as signing your name. A signature is not required to spell out your name, just be identifiable as something *you* wrote. This is why it has been legal for generations for someone who doesn't know how to read, to sign with an "X".