You Can't Lure Employees Back To the Office (zdnet.com) 242
An anonymous reader quotes a report from ZDNet, written by Steven J. Vaughan-Nichols: Months have gone by, and the great resignation keeps rolling along. Some people thought that people would come flocking back to the office once generous unemployment benefits ended. Nope. Wrong. Months after Republican states cut the $300-a-week Federal benefit and other benefits expired, there has been no rush to return to the workforce. There are many reasons for this. People don't want to catch COVID-19; people are sick of bad jobs; early retirement; and the one I care about today, bosses still think they can force skilled workers to return to offices. I've said it before; I'll say it again. That's not going to happen. People with talent and high-value skills, like most technology workers, aren't returning to traditional offices. You don't have to believe me, though. Look at the numbers being reported.
A Hackajob survey of 2,000 UK tech workers and employers found not quite three-quarters (72%) of tech workers said having the ability to do remote work was very important to them. All, and by the way, just over one in five were looking for new jobs with remote work. A more recent Microsoft survey found UK techies felt even stronger about the issue. In this survey, they found over half of the employees would consider quitting if you tried to force them back into the office. It's not just the UK. The Future Forum Pulse survey found IT workers in the US, UK, Australia, France, Germany, and Japan all had one thing in common: Most want to work at least part of the time remotely. To be precise, 75% want flexibility in where they work, while 93% want flexibility in when they work. Why? The top reason: "Better work-life balance."
The problem? Many executives and owners haven't gotten the clue yet. 44% said they wanted to work from the office daily. Employees? 17%. Three-quarters of bosses said they at least wanted to work from the office 3-5 days a week, versus 34% of employees. Can we say disconnect? I can. And, here's the point. Today, for the first time in my lifetime, workers, not employers, are in the driver's seat. [...] But, that doesn't mean that you must give up the traditional office entirely. You don't. In the Dice State of Remote Work report, there's a remote work spectrum. Sure, some workers never want to cross the office transom again, but others like a flexible work schedule where they can work outside of the office a set number of days per week or month. By Dice's count, only one in five workers are bound and determined to never come into the office again. 75% would be fine with flex work. But, pay attention folks, only 3% want to go back to the old-school 9 to 5, every weekday at the office. I repeat a mere 3% want to return to the office as most of you knew it in the 2010s. Indeed, 7% of respondents said they would even take a 5% salary cut to work remotely.
A Hackajob survey of 2,000 UK tech workers and employers found not quite three-quarters (72%) of tech workers said having the ability to do remote work was very important to them. All, and by the way, just over one in five were looking for new jobs with remote work. A more recent Microsoft survey found UK techies felt even stronger about the issue. In this survey, they found over half of the employees would consider quitting if you tried to force them back into the office. It's not just the UK. The Future Forum Pulse survey found IT workers in the US, UK, Australia, France, Germany, and Japan all had one thing in common: Most want to work at least part of the time remotely. To be precise, 75% want flexibility in where they work, while 93% want flexibility in when they work. Why? The top reason: "Better work-life balance."
The problem? Many executives and owners haven't gotten the clue yet. 44% said they wanted to work from the office daily. Employees? 17%. Three-quarters of bosses said they at least wanted to work from the office 3-5 days a week, versus 34% of employees. Can we say disconnect? I can. And, here's the point. Today, for the first time in my lifetime, workers, not employers, are in the driver's seat. [...] But, that doesn't mean that you must give up the traditional office entirely. You don't. In the Dice State of Remote Work report, there's a remote work spectrum. Sure, some workers never want to cross the office transom again, but others like a flexible work schedule where they can work outside of the office a set number of days per week or month. By Dice's count, only one in five workers are bound and determined to never come into the office again. 75% would be fine with flex work. But, pay attention folks, only 3% want to go back to the old-school 9 to 5, every weekday at the office. I repeat a mere 3% want to return to the office as most of you knew it in the 2010s. Indeed, 7% of respondents said they would even take a 5% salary cut to work remotely.
And who doesn't want to say to their boss (Score:2)
Thankfully, my employer is taking the hint. (Score:4, Interesting)
Back in the spring, the CEO made an announcement about how one day we would return to the office because we were an in-person workplace. The backlash was so severe and widespread that he had to amend his previous statement because he understood how many of us would seek to leave if forced back into the office.
That was refreshing.
LK
Also proving your boss is full of shit (Score:3)
Back in the spring, the CEO made an announcement about how one day we would return to the office because we were an in-person workplace
Because if it was really an needed in-person job, there would be no way to compromise. Obviously it is not, so, regardless of whatever your boss comes up with, he is first a poor business man who doesn't understand his own businesses needs, and at best, second, a liar.
Re: (Score:2)
Re: (Score:2, Funny)
an needed
he is first a poor business man who doesn't understand
Like I'm going to believe some idiot who pronounces needed with a silent n? You are no expert on understanding, or communication.
Or are you just a liar??
Re: (Score:3)
Tell us about how great is our Albanian. Also your Quechua? The grandparent poster is obviously a non-native speaker and anyone who manages to post an understandable message in another language needs to be congratulated because there are plenty of people who have no second language. Particularly if we are discussing a subject which definitely touches on other cultures then those contributions are valuable.
Re: Also proving your boss is full of shit (Score:3)
Obvious (Score:5, Insightful)
Re: (Score:2)
Re: (Score:2)
Re: (Score:2)
Furries make the internet go.
If that was true, DALnet would be more popular.
Re: (Score:2)
Yes, maybe have perks and niceties like back in the days (exception martini lunches).
Direct employment (none of that contract shit), with pension plans, good health care and reasonable parental leave is the stuff most people would settle with.
A lot of us in IT (with direct employment or contracted with decent agencies) have most of these things, but it's the rank and file pink/white collar worker that lacks them (not to mention blue collar workers.)
Sadly, companies think "perks" mean free granola bars at the cafeteria and "wear jeans on Friday" policies (and then wonder why people GTFO
Re:Obvious (Score:5, Insightful)
Not to mention that it's effectively a pay rise, and going back to the office is a cut. No commute means no fuel/electricity, no wear on the car. Eating at home is usually cheaper, with better food. There are some costs like extra electricity, but in the UK you can claim a tax rebate for some of it and it tends to be much less than you spend commuting.
You also get the commute time back for yourself, and a generally better work/life balance. You can be in to accept deliveries, trips to the dentist are easier, you can play with your cat when you need a break.
Re:Obvious (Score:4, Interesting)
Re: (Score:3)
I'm in no hurry to go back. I occasionally stop in to pick stuff up that I need, and as soon as I walk into it, I'm reminded that I actually do really like my office... but I hate the fucking drive. My commute isn't bad (by the standards of this area, or even just working in the midwest when I was 18) but it's still 45 minutes in the morning and evening that I think I'd be really fucking happy to never waste again.
Re: (Score:2)
I find that difficult to believe (Score:5, Insightful)
I'm done working from home. It's my home. I want a separate workplace. I feel like I'm turning into the protagonist of The Machine Stops. I can stay inside weeks at a time and not even shave or wash. That's crazy.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/... [wikipedia.org]
Re: (Score:2)
Re: (Score:2)
400 square feet is a pretty big RV. Probably one of those some traveling hipster or something. 20 bowls of grits says he was towing a (newish) VW and working on a Mac.
His ritual was probably some sort of scream therapy he learned from a Steve Jobs bio.
Re: (Score:3)
The parent poster never recommended or even implied that living and working in an RV is (our should be) a life goal or something similar. I don't know where you get the idea that they did something like that.
Rather, they recommended a method (daily routine) out of their own experience with very limited living & working space that happened to be in an RV.
You, on the other hand, had the audacity of classifying their way-of-living as potentially a bizarre choice, meaning that in this two-post-topic you wer
Re:I find that difficult to believe (Score:5, Funny)
I can stay inside weeks at a time and not even shave or wash. That's crazy.
No true nerd would ever say this in a negative context. You. Do. Not. Belong. Here. Go back.
Re: (Score:2)
I, on the other hand, do not want to waste my time going from one PC (at home) to another one (in the office). In the winter I waste even more time scraping ice from my car. I would rather use that time to do something I like or sleep longer.
Re: (Score:2)
I can stay inside weeks at a time and not even shave or wash.
Around here most of us go weeks at a time and not even shave or wash if we're going outside, too.
Social distancing is a basic staying-alive skill. This is the Utopia we've waited our whole lives for!
Re: (Score:2)
It's not for everyone, but I really like it. The issue you might have is that you want to be in the office, but hardly anyone else does so you won't get the socializing aspect. Your employer may not want to pay for a large office either.
Pay cuts (Score:2)
Exactly this... I took a 5% cut several years ago to move to a totally remote and flexible position. Once you factored in the commuting cost i was actually still better off financially.
Re: (Score:2)
Re: (Score:2)
Me too, I hate it so much when there's a situation that everybody wins from.
They should all treat the world as zero sum.
Selection Bias (Score:3)
There's a bit of a selection bias in the interpretation. Saying things like "44% said they wanted to work from the office daily. Employees? 17%" does not necessarily imply that there's a boss/employee disconnect, it could just as easily mean that those who are more interested in an office environment have self-selected themselves into management. A different title for this story could easily be "People who enjoy office work more likely to be promoted".
Re: (Score:3)
Re: Selection Bias (Score:2)
Re: (Score:3)
it could just as easily mean that those who are more interested in an office environment have self-selected themselves into management.
Not necessarily. My POV is purely anecdotal and I recon it won't fit the life of the general population. But I do yearn to go back to the office. We have nice setups at work, with the office conveniently located near restaurants and gyms. Also, we had a policy to work remote on mondays and fridays, with tuesdays, wednesdays and thursdays at the office (and even then, with a lot of flex time.)
Then the pandemic hit and I've been suffering from cabin fever for almost two years at home. It sucks. I miss the r
Re: (Score:3)
L - O - L (Score:5, Insightful)
I'd ask for so much to come back into an office that there's basically no way in hell they'd ever be willing to pay me that much.
I *like* working at home. I can take breaks and naps when I want, I can go out and do errands if I want, and I can work at a leisurely pace without someone getting in my face about it.
There's no commuting, no parking hassles, no having to go out in fucked up weather, no fighting traffic and bad/crazy/dangerous drivers, plus I get all that commuting time back so I can sleep in every day.
If I quit at 5:00, I'm home at 5:00.
I save money on gas and I save wear and tear on my car. My new tires will probably last for 10 years at this pace.
I can have whatever lunch I want, cooked at home or delivered, or I can go out to eat if I feel like it.
If I want, I can go sit down in a comfy chair or lay in bed during a meeting (Bluetooth headphones are great).
I can tailor my workspace exactly the way I want it and I don't have to put up with Linda cooking fish in the microwave.
I'm not exposed to the people that are sick coming to show what 'heroes' they are for working while they're coughing all over the place.
So yeah, I'm never going back, not unless they were to pay me a literally INSANE amount of money. And even then I might think twice.
Re: (Score:2, Insightful)
Real Offices (Score:5, Insightful)
I'm clearly on the side of, "I love WFH and don't want to go back!" Fortunately I was already WFH before the CV19 stupidity began, so I'm not at risk for being called back in anytime soon. That said, I really wonder if the numbers in the surveys would be different if people had actual single-occupant offices to return to? That versus the cubical farms, or worse: open offices?
Yeah, it's more expensive to do real offices. But your introverts need those. And I'll bet a dollar it's the introverts that are a high percentage of the, "No way am I going back!" crowd.
Re: (Score:3)
I've been a long time work from home guy, and that's never been a factor for me or any other work from home people I know. It's always been about hating the commutes and the wasted time around the office. It's things like kicking off a long build or other automated task and being expected to look busy at my desk while it happens. It's the expectation that I'll stay late if something comes up, but also I'm not allowed to leave early if there's nothing to do.
There's just so much less wasted time if I work fro
Re: (Score:3)
I'm more on the extrovert side, but I'm job hunting because we're trying to drag people back into the office.If I want to socialize, the office is not the place to do that. My friends aren't there, I'm not allowed to drink there, and I can't come and go as I please.
For 20 months through some fucking dire challenges I kept shit running from the comfort of my home office. I could roll into the office in PJ pants with coffee and breakfast and start putting out fires. I what world would anyone be better served
Re: (Score:2)
Yeah, it's more expensive to do real offices. But your introverts need those. And I'll bet a dollar it's the introverts that are a high percentage of the, "No way am I going back!" crowd.
I'm not sure why people associate introversion with anti-social. As an introvert, I appreciate the need for time to recharge and get frustrated at times by extroverts who seem to always have to talk, but also enjoy and find interacting with people important and do not want or need to be isolated. I think what you are saying is some people need time to think and a way to block out all the noise, which can be done in a proper office setting as well as you point out. The problem is introverts are a small pe
Re: (Score:2)
But I value not having to commute a lot more.
A teleporter would solve the problem nicely.
Long covid is another cause (Score:4, Informative)
https://www.washingtonpost.com... [washingtonpost.com]
"Hard data is not available and estimates vary widely, but based on published studies and their own experience treating patients, several medical specialists said 750,000 to 1.3 million patients likely remain so sick for extended periods that they can’t return to the workforce full time."
https://www.abc.net.au/news/20... [abc.net.au]
"Recent data from the UK's Office for National Statistics indicate that around 1.2 million people reported long COVID symptoms in the four weeks to the end of October. The UK health secretary said he was alarmed at the growing scale of this problem for the National Health Service."
A significant part of the worker shortage may be permanent. It is great that this benefits the wages of the rest of the workers, but it also disrupts the availability of goods, release schedules, increases stress and workload on the remaining workers, raises national healthcare costs, reduces the tax basis, and more. And nobody is apparently tracking long covid effects on populations. Biden threw $4B at the problem, but it will likely be years before that research returns any results, let alone solutions or cures. The estimates for how many people experience long covid are wildly different, varying from 5% to 50% of all people who catch COVID-19 and lasting from weeks to maybe forever. People with asymptomatic infections or only mild symptoms can get long covid. Lots of new people are going to catch Omicron even if they are vaccinated. Combine that with people being fed up with crummy jobs and being forced to switch jobs and some industries may never fully recover (restaurants, hospitality, warehousing, truck driving). The effects are likely to last for years and are affecting the entire world.
Re: (Score:2)
And nobody is apparently tracking long covid effects on populations.
Probably because most of the folks who ended up with long COVID in the first 6-9 months of the pandemic took about a year to die. There's not a ton to work with there.
Re: (Score:2)
Re: (Score:3)
Yup.. an estimated 3 million long covid patients. That's going to tighten up the work force quite a bit even if only 300,000 of them are under 50.
Not only that. All those people will need some sort of assistance, which means expenses (either out of pocket, or spread through our health policies, or with publix assistance/taxes.)
Covidiots focus only on fatalities and (mostly false) narratives about 99.xx% survivability without taking into account that a lot of people were maimed or left crippled.
They "survive", all right. But more often than not, survival is not just about "not dying", but being able to go back to some normal. We aren't even track
I'd love to go back (Score:5, Interesting)
-- to the offices I had in the 1980s:
Four real walls, at least 120 square feet of space, large windows with a nice view, a solid door, a real desk, a credenza, a few bookshelves, and all the computer equipment I could scrounge.
Since businesses can't seem to afford that these days, I'll stay put here at home.
Re: (Score:2)
I had a window office once, and the jealousy ran thick. If I goofed off they'd report me in a heart-beat. I decided it wasn't worth it. If you look like a nobody, then nobody targets you. The geek in me doesn't want to fight that hard for status symbols.
Re: (Score:2)
This. Workspaces have been getting smaller, shorter, and generally crappier for decades. Sometimes your 3 short walls are hot swapped each day. Add in the joy of hybrid workplaces with meetings with the speaker a couple cubes away talking over themselves with a delayed copy of their own voice. Top it off with some resident anti-vaxxers for good measure and no wonder nobody thinks of the office as a pleasant place to go these days.
Re:I'd love to go back (Score:4, Insightful)
Re: (Score:2)
Re: (Score:2)
Okay, okay... I don't have a credenza in my (on campus) office. I've got locking cabinets though - and a whiteboard.
Re: (Score:2)
Yeah, these days you'll be lucky to fight for a hot desk.
They make sure half the chairs are broken because they think it encourages people to come in early to grab the ones that aren't. Then you get arguments or even fights over desks and chairs.
Office facilities are generally poor. Many offices there's only a shared wifi which is saturated due to too many users, resulting in a slow and unreliable connection. Noise from other co-workers which makes it impractical to have calls, i hate being on conf calls wi
Avoid absolutes. (Score:3)
With things like the state of the workplace in the mid 2020’s, it is best to avoid absolute terms. I’ve been a cheerleader for flexible workplaces for two decades, but there are a few things where in almost every environment they fail, especially long-term. Onboarding is a huge challenge, especially for junior staff. Helping people understand aspects of the business outside their daily responsibilities is very hard without the loud cubicle environment. Some people that can be effective in the office simply are not worth employing if they are working remotely. Some people have extreme difficulty making friends (or building a network if you choose) outside of work.
My guess is that most companies and employees will embrace a couple days a week in the office most of the time in a year or two. I also expect that many senior staff will lock themselves into as much remote work as possible. Schedules will be much more fluid though, which will be a welcome change for most people.
Office? Waste of time. (Score:2)
I've been a tech guy my whole life.
It was very clear from my early days when we would setup ping scripts to page us when a server was down, that showing up to the office was a joke. Even when we were in our offices 20 years ago, we locked the door and all met on Instant Messenger.
Today, even if I showed up at an office, my entire team works in various countries in different time zones, around the world. It would still be Zoom meetings, tickets and relentless work hours for most the staff if we asked them
Re:Office? Waste of time. (Score:5, Interesting)
Done right, the management walk around and have short conversations with everyone finding out how their job and life are going while keeping abreast of anything that looks like trouble coming. Trouble includes things like "He seems stressed, let me make sure that he takes some vacation time soon" and "This person keeps mentioning a problem coming down the pipe that everyone else says doesn't exist, maybe I should dig deeper..." HP used to be the best at making sure employees had good work/life balance.
The old "HP Way" can be done by zoom and the like, but it's a bit more structured and less casual and it loses its spontaneity. The whole agile development thing with daily quick standups is a weak substitute and wastes too much group time..
I love working from home. Can't beat the commute, I got close to the best possible setup for my needs and I get a lot of shit done. The hour each way to go to the office by transit will suck, and driving would cost a fortune for parking, but save 30+ minutes each way. The office environment is the exact opposite of what I need. It's a hot-desk open plan with shit lighting and too much noise. As an embedded software guy I have a bunch of specialized hardware and equipment needed for my job, how in the hell am I supposed to hot-desk two extra displays for the embedded system plus all the HW, development boards, power supplies, weird propritary networking adapters and all the other shit that occupies the corner desk at home with two shelves above it full of everything I need to work efficiently? Everyone on my team (some in the same city and others 1000+km away) have similar setups.
I'm pretty sure we're all working from home for the foreseeable future unless they completely re-do the workspace, I just don't think they've realized it yet.
Re: (Score:2)
The young'uns don't know the old "HP Way" which was "Management by walking around."
The whole agile development thing with daily quick standups is a weak substitute and wastes too much group time..
So much this. The further away from cargo cult computer programming you get, the worse agile gets. Every job I've had that's tried to use the whole agile process, outside of software development, has usually resulted in meetings existing for the sake of having them to discuss shit that could be solved by an email shorter than this comment. The actual core shit that actually needs to happen and actually produces something useful to literally anyone gets stuck in the holding pattern while the world stops t
Re: (Score:2)
My office wasn't perfect, but what the fuck?
I am genuinely curious how on earth they expected you to hotdesk in an honest to goodness lab.
Re: (Score:2)
The young'uns don't know the old "HP Way" which was "Management by walking around."
Done right, the management walk around and have short conversations with everyone finding out how their job and life are going while keeping abreast of anything that looks like trouble coming. Trouble includes things like "He seems stressed, let me make sure that he takes some vacation time soon" and "This person keeps mentioning a problem coming down the pipe that everyone else says doesn't exist, maybe I should dig deeper..." HP used to be the best at making sure employees had good work/life balance.
I think if you a are good manager, you don't have somewhere between 5-7 direct reports (absolutely never more than ten).
Then, you can set up a 15-Minute slot for each of them once per week. Just to talk... nothing really current project related. Just so... You can do this on Zoom, no problem. But make it so that your direct reports don't see this as a burden, but rather an opportunity for them to chit-chat with you. If there is nothing to chit-chat, then it can be done in two minutes.
Also, make sure that yo
Re: (Score:2)
The young'uns don't know the old "HP Way" which was "Management by walking around."
Done right, the management walk around and have short conversations with everyone finding out how their job and life are going while keeping abreast of anything that looks like trouble coming. Trouble includes things like "He seems stressed, let me make sure that he takes some vacation time soon" and "This person keeps mentioning a problem coming down the pipe that everyone else says doesn't exist, maybe I should dig deeper..." HP used to be the best at making sure employees had good work/life balance.
The old "HP Way" can be done by zoom and the like, but it's a bit more structured and less casual and it loses its spontaneity. The whole agile development thing with daily quick standups is a weak substitute and wastes too much group time..
That is simply having a manager who is approachable and effective (meaning they'll act on your issues, not just pretend to listen and ignore you). This can easily be done remotely. Even in the before times I had a director based in the US, he'd try to speak to everyone including the UK staff, we'd have a meeting at 4 PM (9 AM his time) where he'd keep us up to date and take questions. He left and we rarely heard a peep from his replacement.
The one's who are trying to push you back to the office are manag
I'm never commuting 90 minutes each way again (Score:5, Interesting)
I commuted round trip 3+ hours for decades. I'm never doing it again.
There are plenty of remote jobs available paying the same as I was getting to go in to the office.
It makes no difference anyway in my current role. I have a global team, I will never be in the same room with all of them.
Re: (Score:2)
A few issues to consider (Score:2)
I think that there are a few issues with these types of articles.
For a start:
1. The world has not fully opened international borders in many countries. This creates shortages of workers in many workplaces where there would be much more skilled migration. This will soon change with an increase the competition as international borders open around the world. An increase in the supply of skilled workers for cheap will place additional pressure on those who want to work from home all the time.
2. The world is not
Re:A few issues to consider (Score:5, Insightful)
4. Office Politics: You will have many who are working from home and that's great for them but if there are other people hanging around the office then they are much more likely to get promoted.
Getting promoted is overrated.
Re: (Score:2)
but happens when the pandemic winds down and they have alternative choices?
Sweet summer child.
Re: (Score:2)
2. The world is not yet done with Covid-19
More accurately, COVID-19 is not done with the world.
Sure, we can see the way it's most likely to go, with COVID-19 mutating into something endemic, but that's not guaranteed. The anti-vac, anti-mask crown are almost certainly guaranteeing COVID remains with us for a while longer; and we hope it doesn't mutate into something worse.
This could be good (Score:5, Interesting)
A change in corporate/office culture might not be a bad thing at all. It's not like the 50 hrs/wk office life has been doing us any favors.
Thirty years ago, if someone told me that in the 21st century people would have to work harder than they did in the 1970s just to stay in the same place, I wouldn't have believed them. It's as if all the productivity increases and automation and the telecommunications revolution didn't make our lives better at all, but only served the ownership/management class.
This disruption might turn out to be one of the saving graces of the pandemic.
Re: (Score:2)
This disruption might turn out to be one of the saving graces of the pandemic.
Unfortunately, I don't think it's enough on its own. There have been token level changes, and some improvements, but by and large it's just a new coat of paint.
Re: (Score:2)
It's as if all the productivity increases and automation and the telecommunications revolution didn't make our lives better at all, but only served the ownership/management class.
Check out the elephant curve [brookings.edu]. The benefits of technological progress and globalization went to both the elites in Western countries and the general population in developing countries, but skipped the general population in Western countries.
Sensible companies aren't going to force this... (Score:3)
Those companies who understand that the pandemic has dramatically speeded up a process that was already well underway, will do fine.
Those that continue to consider this a temporary blip, will lose their best talent.
It's going to be all about completely flexible working arrangements, right down to going to the office just for the duration of a truly important meeting - brain storming sessions for example, or mentoring sessions.
That's exactly how I intend to approach this. Luckily my company is treading this exact path, even to the point where during the pandemic, they have slowly been renovating various offices to suit. More meeting areas, more breakout areas, less desk space, desks further apart, lockers (due to hot desking in future).
Dedicated zoom meeting rooms - because not everyone is going to be able to make it to those meetings where a physical presence is the best option.
Clearly, for management levels, a need to be in the office a little more often, is sensible.
But for those who spend most of their working day solving problems - e.g. software engineers - the remote time is for the deep concentration, the office time is for deep discussion.
There's going to be some adjustment. I can almost guarantee I'll end up in physical meetings and be thinking "we could've done this over Zoom.", or the other way around "Damn, I can't follow this, should have gone to the office."
That's fine - if it ends up with me having to commute only 1 or 2 times a week, outside of rush hour, that's actually a really nice balance.
Re: (Score:2)
>
There's going to be some adjustment. I can almost guarantee I'll end up in physical meetings and be thinking "we could've done this over Zoom.", or the other way around "Damn, I can't follow this, should have gone to the office."
That's fine - if it ends up with me having to commute only 1 or 2 times a week, outside of rush hour, that's actually a really nice balance.
I think you have hit on the key - there needs to be an understanding of what will accomplish the work and act accordingly. As a consultant, some of my work is easily done remotely and others is best done in person. Laying out a performance dashboard is easily done in my home office, getting 5 senior executives to agree on a strategy for their company needs to be done in person. I have also taught some classes remotely and find they really don't work that well as it is hard to keep a class engaged. As y
high-value skills (Score:3, Insightful)
Right now, I value plumbers and electricians a hell of a lot more than some google wank.
Re: (Score:2)
Right now, I value plumbers and electricians a hell of a lot more than some google wank.
Obviously. But then again, you are obviously peddling a fallacy of extremes (or excluded middle) for reasons that defy comprehension.
Oh? How badly do they want onsite employees? (Score:2)
So how badly do these companies want onsite employees? What incentives are they offering?
I could be convinced. In fact, the more people dig in their heels and refuse to go back, the more it'll take to convince me.
Re: (Score:2)
Just financial (Score:2)
The proof is in the money (Score:2)
Indeed, 7% of respondents said they would even take a 5% salary cut to work remotely.
This may be true, at least in the minds of people that are only theoretically thinking about this tradeoff. This tradeoff is coming, and the difference is likely well more than 5%. Given a 30% pay cut, would 7% still choose remote work?
Depending on which numbers you look at, the cost of living in Raleigh is 48% less than San Francisco, and the average income is 36% less. Living in Raleigh with a San Francisco salary is tempting if a company is willing to offer that. The lower salary goes farther in Rale
I wonder why (Score:2)
Sitting at home in silence, being able to focus on your work, or in an open office with 30 other people, some on the phone, some gathering and talking work related or not. Some just chatting and laughing. Melting your brain and feeling tired and with headache.
Executives love offices, Cube Farm workers don't (Score:2)
The reason executives want people in the office is several. Ego is the most obvious, but in general, executives LIKE going to the office. The office is a pleasant experience with about 70% liking their offices.
But your regular worker, they hate the office - it's a lousy experience with lousy conditions, with only about 40% liking the office.
It's easy to understand why - an executive gets an office -4 walls and a door, usually a window, sometimes even control of the temperature. So they have privacy and the
5% pay cut? (Score:2)
Isn't there a huge reason missing? (Score:2)
There's another reason there hasn't been a return to work: Disability and death.
800,000 Americans have died of Covid. Some of the survivors have been disabled by the d
Many executives and owners haven't gotten the clue (Score:2)
Re:You are going back... (Score:4)
Besides that every Elbonian or Indian outsourcing job I've seen other than customer support has ended up in disaster, there is a huge difference between 'flex work' and 'some guy on the other side of the world who's in an incredibly inconvenient time zone, never, ever comes in to the office, runs afoul of export rules, causes a security nightmare, and is probably working 3 other jobs'. Bosses can barely unclench enough to tolerate flex work when forced to - while they may use the occasional out of country employee, most will not stomach someone entirely out of literal and legal reach for all their most important positions any time soon.
Re: You are going back... (Score:2)
Re:You are going back... (Score:4, Insightful)
I have seen companies move to the Indian outsourcing and not look back. To upper management, they see the cost savings, and the fact that H-1Bs will do anything, because H-1Bs get deported if fired, so they get essentially 100% loyal, obedient subjects.
I am already seeing companies realize that if there are people's faces on a computer screen, they can get different faces from Lower Elbonia for cents on the dollar and the same, if not better work done, because the money can throw more bodies at a problem, and 20 Indians can do better work than three Europeans for the same amount of payroll.
It will happen... and in 1-2 years, expect to see another wave of people having to train their replacements in Bangalore, except this time, it will be via Zoom, instead of face to face. That's just how companies do things.
Think companies give a rat's ass about security? Many companies rather just pay a ransom than spend for a backup system, just because Veeam + a cloud provider is more expensive than just paying the ransom. To many companies, security has no ROI, and any breach that happens can be fixed with some PR, some people sacked, and some LifeLock subscriptions. Compliance? Government agencies will do nothing but maybe a finger waggle in Congress, and a token wrist-slap fine. Only some low level person will be facing jail time.
I expect more of the same. More security breaches, more offshoring, and the Great Resignation replaced by the Great Supplication as people beg for their jobs back.
So, tldr... people will be going back to the offices, to train their contractor replacement.
Re:You are going back... (Score:5, Insightful)
Also you can get one baby from nine women in a month.
Re: (Score:3)
I have seen companies move to the Indian outsourcing and not look back.
Yep. There is a consequence to being able demonstrate that your location doesn't matter - particularly for lower skilled jobs.
And the way around the "poor" customer service is to have a very small level 2 team stateside.
That said, I usually get friendly people when talking with people from India versus the stateside. Lot less rude and entitled. The big problem is the language barrier if the conversation strays off script.
Re: You are going back... (Score:2)
Re:You are going back... (Score:5, Insightful)
Good thing I live in Eastern Europe, then :)
Here's a fun fact. Many Eastern European tech workers (IT and beyond) are culturally closer to Western methods, easily adaptable, and willing to work their asses off for less than half of Western salaries, while being adaptable, professional, productive, and happy with what they are doing. You can't really blame the companies for using new-ish and cheaper worker pools, and you can't blame Eastern European people for being willing to work for less than their Western counterparts are used to. As a matter of fact, you should look at this from the other side. I am happy to work for a HIGH salary (from my point of view), from a comparatively CHEAP country, while being at least equally good at what I do, compared to someone from USA, France, UK, Germany, etc.
I'm going to risk being politically incorrect, there's a huge difference between working with someone from Eastern Europe and working with someone from India or China.
Re: (Score:3)
From the perspective of a Western-European software-engineer, I must say, I don't see a problem here. This sounds, at least to me, like a Californian company using software-engineers from Peoria (US-Midwest for my fellow Europeans).
I don't think anybody in the US would say that that is bad idea and that that is a "outsourcing to 'far-east'". They would see this as "normal". Yes, salaries in Peoria are significantly lower than in Silicon Valley or NYC, at around the same level as (e.g.) Munich (Germany) vs.
Re: (Score:2)
But India? None of my customers would get freelancers or subcontractors from further away than Europe (maybe including Turkey). The reason is that for most of them the cost-benefit would be completely outweighed by the additional overhead of managing the outsourcing.
Long story short: if you are a low-skilled, keyboard-entry drone who just enters into program code what someone else has thought of, then, yes, you can be easily replaced and it doesn't matter whether your replacement is next-door or around the planet.
But: if you are a highly skilled engineer, who is involved in the overall product planning, design, problem description, solution creation (which I see as the actual "Software Engineer Work"), then, no, you can not be easily replaced with someone around the planet.
Good points. I worked with a company that outsourced a software development product to India and it was a nightmare. Low cost was the driver and we'd get back updates that didn't fix the problem and were met with all kinds of BS excuses why we didn't explain the problem properly to them. I guess random lines across the graphics and random text needs a 100 page document to explain; and then it would be "too confusing." OTOH, I've worked with H1B's who were really good, and left because they were as frust
Re: (Score:3)
Good thing I live in Eastern Europe, then :)
Here's a fun fact. Many Eastern European tech workers (IT and beyond) are culturally closer to Western methods, easily adaptable, and willing to work their asses off for less than half of Western salaries, while being adaptable, professional, productive, and happy with what they are doing.
We have several Ukranians, working in the Ukraine, where I work, and they are lovely, intelligent and hospitable people. The time-zone different between them and the US east coast works to our advantage, as they are able to pick up issue that maybe occurred late Pacific time and have them resolved for our clients by 8 am eastern.
Our entire company is now remote. There is an office in Irvine, CA, and people are welcome to go to the office if they choose. But with the workforce spread out across the lower 4
Re:You are going back... (Score:5, Insightful)
As someone who has worked with Indians in the past, both onshore and offshore, I don't think there really is much of a difference in ability.
The problem is cost-cutting. There's a lot of companies who offshore based on getting the lowest cost possible. Low cost means low pay, and that tends to self-select workers who can't get jobs anywhere else.
The incompetency isn't due to the people involved, but the companies making short-sighted decisions.
Re: (Score:3)
The other issue with outsourcing whether it be overseas or locally is that the contractor doesn't know your business, problem domain, customers, and legacy software like your in house people do. What you save in dev cost might easily be eaten up by spending more time on design and specification and inevitable reworks. There are also cultural differences that can cause misunderstandings and lead to missed deadlines or rework as well.
I don't want to give over my home to my employer (Score:2)
Why should I change my home to suit them? Why should I force the rest of my entire household to adjust to the demands of my office? My home is optimized for my personal life. My office is optimized for work.
I can't selfishly consider only my own desires, I have other people to think about. Me working from home is definitely not ideal when you consider the whole family. Physically separating my work is a huge benefit to them. It's only fair that my employer bears all the cost of maintaining a completely sepa
Re: (Score:3)
That may be appropriate, but at the same time I've saved over $2,000 in gas alone by not going into the office the last two years, and at least where I am there's no requirement or expectation for the employer to cover commuting cost. So all things being equal, spending a couple thousand dollars makes sense.
In terms of how equipped I have to make my house for my work, one good desk, chair, and a nice monitor arm is plenty and I cram it into an out of the way corner. My work provides me basically a table an
Re:I don't want to give over my home to my employe (Score:5, Insightful)
My wife and I both work from home full time. We don't have children. We spend more time together than ever. Lunch every day rather than maybe once a month. We cook dinner together instead of the first person getting home doing it. We have more free time so we now work out and do the chores together instead of trying to schedule all that into the few hours after dinner.
We have more money because we are not eating out so much, we are healthier both physically and mentally.
I can take a 15 minute break and play piano or go for a walk with my wife. I can work with a kitty on my lap happy and purring. I can work in gym shorts and a t-shirt so I can go workout at lunch. Why would I go back to an office?
Re: (Score:2)
Dumb corporations, then. What kind of incentive can they be given that's better than paying less in rent?
Re: (Score:2)
Re: (Score:2)
Re: (Score:3)
On top of that, the coffee at home is much better.
The coffee in my office is so bad it's almost performance art. I don't even know how. It's a pretty high end automatic espresso/etc machine which gets heavy use (gotta have caffeine, and most people have milk which mutes some of the horribleness), so nothing is stale. But the coffee is somehow just atrocious.
So bad I still cannot really believe it, and every time I have a cup it comes as a surprise.
Re: (Score:2)
I almost miss it in a weird masochistic kind of way. The way I'd laugh to myself on my first morning sip as I was constantly impressed with how fucking gross it was. It had really become a meme.
Re: (Score:2)