Microsoft is Threatening To Withhold Windows 11 Updates If Your CPU is Old (theverge.com) 226
Last week, media reported how Microsoft's Windows 11 won't technically leave millions of PCs behind -- the company told the press that it won't actually block you from installing Windows 11 on a PC with an older CPU, so long as you download and manually install an ISO file all by yourself. But it turns out even that technicality has a technicality. The Verge: Microsoft is now threatening to withhold Windows Updates from your copy of Windows 11 -- potentially even security updates -- if you take that route. We're not sure why the company didn't mention it in our original briefing, but Microsoft has since told The Verge that unsupported PCs won't be entitled to receive Windows Updates, and that even security and driver updates may be withheld.
sounds like a feature to me (Score:5, Funny)
THIS is how you need to stop Windows from ramming updates down your throat? Run Windows on old hardware?
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This is Microsoft's equivalent of putting you in the comfy chair, and poking you with soft cushions.
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Only an idiot would think that is a feature when using Windows. But we do live in an age where people are becoming stupider by the minute.
I never update anything. Updates either break something, take something away, or sneak in more ads (Android).
Example: I updated Visual Studio recently. New version replaced the code editor scrollbar with a "Map Bar" - something I don't need or want. After install, the whole editor would crash when I scrolled the page and I had to roll back. Wasted several hours of my day.
Security? I really don't care. I just need to get my work done and updates interfere with that.
Re:sounds like a feature to me (Score:5, Insightful)
I never update anything.
Computer version of an anti-vaxxer. They don't update their immune system either.
Re:sounds like a feature to me (Score:5, Interesting)
Some companies are just really bad at making non-security updates, such as microsoft
The MSN was quite a terrible example of it, with every version getting worse and worse and worse and worse, at a point there were dedicated websites to "how to crack older versions of MSN to still run".
Ideally they should make the security and non-security patches separate and allow to choose what you actually want.
Re:sounds like a feature to me (Score:4, Informative)
But someone who doesn't update Windows CORRECTLY believes that the updates will enable telemetry that sends data about you to another organization (Microsoft) and/or will break their computer somehow.
Re:sounds like a feature to me (Score:5, Informative)
Last update broke full disk encryption where I work, several hundred laptops needed to be reimaged. Important legal casework was lost. All because of an error in Microsoft's fsck program. They broke the program that fixes filesystems, and it destroyed encrypted filesystems.
We have been trying to find ways to keep Microsoft from force-updating computers. We have enterprise licenses. Nothing works for long. Some update invariably comes along that breaks whatever we put in place to keep updates from just forcing themselves on end users.
So yeah, this is a feature. A necessary one.
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Doesn't your company back up employee workstations? You can't completely blame Microsoft for the data loss if your IT people aren't doing their jobs right.
Re:sounds like a feature to me (Score:5, Insightful)
Why are people assuming we didn't restore form backup? If you have to restore from backups, it was because data was lost.
But here's the thing about legal casework. If you lose it right before a trial, sometimes you don't have time to restore from backup. I work for my state's child welfare agency. Kids could have been sent back to abusive parents because Microsoft's poorly implemented update policy. Luckily we managed to get things restored in time but it was a very close call.
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You may not have time to restore from backup, but you do have time to request a continuance long enough to get your data back. I find it hard to believe that the judge wouldn't be willing to grant you a reasonable amount of time for that, especially when you consider that refusing the continuance is ample grounds for appeal.
Re:sounds like a feature to me (Score:4, Insightful)
Well duh, of course we test. Of course we maintain backups and restored them. We have blocked access to the Windows update site. But guess what? People are working from home and using their home networks. We're using Zenworks for patches and transitioning away from a Novell/OES backend to a new Azure based back end. Right in the middle of the pandemic. Because that's how state budgets work, you get money for something, you have to do it that year. So yeah, this hit us while we were particularly vulnerable.
Stop being an asshole. It doesn't make you look smart, it makes you seem entirely superficial. You're just virtue signaling.
No windows updates? (Score:3, Funny)
Sounds good to me!
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Re: No windows updates? (Score:3)
People complaining their unsupported install of a free upgrade of an OS isn't getting regular updates is the the empire-crushing failure Apple/Linux fan boys wish it would be.
Win 11 is a free upgrade to Win 10, Win 10 has three years of support life remaining. Why would someone choosing to run Win 10 on 5+ year-old hardware feel a crushing need to suddenly install Win 11? They are obviously happy with Win 10 on older hardware, what's the issue?
Apple is on the verge of dropping Intel support, just like they
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Their x86 transition had me using windows for a lot of work.
Adobe treated Apple as second class for quite a while and the transition to 64-bit was significantly behind Windows.
Re: No windows updates? (Score:4, Interesting)
Why is MS dictating processor lifetimes? Can you explain the feature supported by all these cores https://docs.microsoft.com/en-... [microsoft.com] that isn't part of say a i7-6950X (A processor that can outperform probably more than 1/2 of that list on many tasks?).
It makes sense to kill off product support when you want to say move the compiler target to use AVX2 universally, but then you kill processors without that feature. But that isn't whats happening here, its just MS giving intel/etc some planned obsolescence and a boost in sales to replace computers which don't actually need replacing. In a way its the same thing the computer manufactures did for MS with respect to win7. Its been proven repeatily that running win7 on a ryzen is possible, yet AMD and MS make it a PITA by intentionally creating driver incompatibilities. Its quite monopolistic behavior and really if these companies didn't exist in a monopoly/duopoly situation it would never fly. MS hiring a couple engineers to assure the win10/etc security patches are backported and that the WQL tests run against drivers probably costs less than the company coffee budget, but they won't because there isn't a really a competitive reason. Its the same thing with DirectX, back when they were fighting the 3D API battles they released drirectX for every windows version in use, but then later they started trying to use it as a way to force people to upgrade windows.
So, I don't really understand why anyone gives them any slack for being lazy and monopolistic.
CPU performance hasn't increased that much (Score:5, Insightful)
Withholding updates because the CPU is a few years old is a bit ridiculous, because CPU performance hasn't really skyrocketed in the past few years. This is no longer the 90s, when CPUs were getting four times faster every couple of years. The primary gains lately have been in power efficiency, not so much performance.
Microsoft seems to be going through a lot of effort to obsolete older hardware with this Windows 11 release. I'm really wondering what their angle is; my guess is they don't want to have to support such a large amount of hardware driver-wise.
Re:CPU performance hasn't increased that much (Score:4, Insightful)
Re:CPU performance hasn't increased that much (Score:5, Informative)
Possibly, but not necessarily a hardware limitation. The hardware security requirements are actually met by one version prior to their cutoff. Intel's 7th gen and AMD Ryzen first gen both support the same hardware level security as the approved processors.
One of the sticking points is that for Virtualisation Based Security there are also additional driver based requirements, and that may be the sticking point as to why only some 7th gen Intel consumer chips are included as per the updated requirements, but all Xeon X and Xeon W chips suddenly are.
https://blogs.windows.com/wind... [windows.com]
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You're probably right, although it's not about the TPM or other platform security features.
Intel introduced additional hardware protections against Spectre-class attacks in their Coffee Lake lineup.
This might not affect AMD as much. Although AMD was vulnerable to some attacks, they were unaffected by the majority. Thus, it is likely AMD needed significantly less redesign work to secure their processors.
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My best guess is that they want to rely heavily on hardware for security.
No it's about piracy, they wanted to kill the infinitely copyable dos/win16/win32 binaries. It's about DRM and future license enforcement. They want to police your PC. The whole point was to deprecate the executable mode lf DOS/Win9x/XP. There's been theft starting with PC games in the 90's. No software requires a second computer 100 miles away from it.
The internet is one big spy machine, precisely because software is copyrighted not owned by the customer. That allowed companies to turn the network of
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CPU have been getting a lot faster every few years like before. However we no longer have that easy Mhz/Ghz clock speed as a normal metric. However the CPU is no longer the real bottleneck for most computing. As a lot of the work has been shifted to the GPU, and the bottle neck is around Bus Speed, and RAM and Storage Speed, as well most programs today are not coded to handle multi-core processing (I do blame most languages implementation of multi-threading to be a big issue there, but that is a tangenti
Re:CPU performance hasn't increased that much (Score:5, Informative)
However the CPU is no longer the real bottleneck for most computing. As a lot of the work has been shifted to the GPU, and the bottle neck is around Bus Speed, and RAM and Storage Speed
While that's true in general, this particular story relates to MBEC (Mode Based Execution Control). If this security/privilege mechanism is accelerated in hardware, Windows11's HVCI (Hypervisor-protected Code Integrity) runs fine. If MBEC is instead done in software by the CPU, slowdowns as bad as 40% have been seen.
https://arstechnica.com/gadget... [arstechnica.com]
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Take my i7-3770 CPU for example. It is 9 years old, but it is still very usable for pretty much every modern task except things like gaming, video editing, and 3d graphics.
Once you get to the point where a particular task takes less than one monitor refresh cycle, making it faster will not make any difference at all to the end user. We are pretty much there for many tasks, and any delays tend to be caused by IO rather than the CPU.
It is also about double the speed of an i3-10110Y or about the same speed as
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--
www.fark.com/politics
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Hence why the TPM modules were invented which predate these "old" CPUs.
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Beware of counterfeit Slashdot users - note that you just replied to "rsilvergin", not "rsilvergun". This squatter has even stolen rsilvergun's sig.
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These people are deluded if they think DRM will ever actually work.
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The old TPM only DRM was not effective enough.
By modules, I also mean TPM 2.0 modules that the users can install in addition to TPM 1.2 firmware which MS has said is good enough. AMD users may have to replace a Ryzen 1 CPU for no other reason than Win 11 whereas some Intel users will have to replace the MB and CPU because Intel chipset changes every 2 generations.
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Well maybe they just want to leave Spectre/Meltdown behind. Can't do that hanging onto "old" CPUs.
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IMHO, the subtext is
Give us LOADSAMONEY for a subscription or you are stuffed.
Remember that we own your PC. We can brick it whenever we like. You don't want that to happen now, do you?
The MS Protection racket. A snip at $29.99/month (plus tax)
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Re:CPU performance hasn't increased that much (Score:5, Informative)
Withholding updates because the CPU is a few years old is a bit ridiculous, because CPU performance hasn't really skyrocketed in the past few years.
The reasons for not updating the CPU has zero to do with performance. They are withholding updates to CPUs which don't meet other hardware requirements including specific support for fTPM and certain driver level requirements (such as shipping DCH drivers). fTPM actually dates back a generation or two before the current cutoff (all AMD first gen Ryzen CPUs have it as do all Intel 7th Gen), but the driver model is something more recent.
Three days ago MS also reviewed and expanded the CPU support list to include several 7th gen Intel CPUs as well.
https://blogs.windows.com/wind... [windows.com]
If you want to put on the conspiracy hat note that they included the i7-7820HQ with an asterisk basically saying if you bought this CPU yourself you're SOL. If bought it from an SI and they provided DCH drivers for this CPU then you're supported. Care to take a guess which CPU the Surface Studio 2 uses? https://www.microsoft.com/en-u... [microsoft.com]
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Re: CPU performance hasn't increased that much (Score:2)
I've been saying this is all about DRM since Win 11 was first announced and everyone acts like I'm stupid. MS wants a walled garden too, why wouldn't they?
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I've been saying this is all about DRM since Win 11 was first announced and everyone acts like I'm stupid.
That's because it is stupid. It was equally stupid for Windows 10, Windows 8, Windows 7, and Windows Vista. It was equally stupid about UEFI, and also the original TPM specification. It starts as a bad guess, then a trend of bad guesses, then it's just some lame crying wolf, and even that gets tired eventually it just looks stupid.
Security can be used to implement DRM. That's not a reason to eliminate security. And precisely what "walled garden" should MS promote? They have nothing. Their store is a joke, t
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Well of course they will be alright. Probably running linux like many of us here. If it wasn't for my wife's computer needing windows, we wouldn't even have it in the household.
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> fTPM actually dates back a generation or two before the current cutoff (all AMD first gen Ryzen CPUs have it as do ...)
Except that first gen Ryzen Threadripper (1900, 1920X, 1905X, etc.) is NOT supported [microsoft.com] as it doesn't support TPM 2.0.
It is stupid that a CPU that came out in 2017 isn't support.
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No it isn't. Millions of people have not yet realised they need to switch to Linux.
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It's not that ridiculous if the line between too old and not too old is whether or not the OS needs to mitigate heartbleed vulnerabilities.
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The whole Windows 11 requirements thing is ridiculous.
Microsoft's big claim for the CPU requirements is that it blue screens less. What in the hell has changed in the windows kernel so much that "Devices that do not meet the minimum system requirements had 52% more kernel mode crashes. Devices that do meet the minimum system requirements had a 99.8% crash free experience" Source [windows.com] Does this statement from MS mean older systems crash over half the time, or crash 0.4% of the time? If it's crashes over half the
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Unless they are making up words, "52% more kernel mode crashes" means going from a 99.8% crash-free experience to a 99.7% crash-free experience: 50% more than 0.2% is 0.3%. Not exactly what I would call an earth-shaking difference.
Also, smart cards or Fido devices are not air-gapped. An air gap means there is no physical or wireless connection between networks.
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Yep. screwed up the percentage. It should be 0.3% instead of 0.4% if that's how they're calculating it.
The air gap I was referring to is that they are not hard wired to the computer. They are taken out of the PC once the credential is no longer necessary. Also in the case of the Yubikey, even when plugged in, it has a physical gap in that you have to touch it before even the unit is accessible (although some TPM's can activate only on a fingerprint read, it's not a universal option and tends to be in only h
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FTFY
Re: CPU performance hasn't increased that much (Score:2)
They are withholding support for what they consider unsupported installations, if they provided support, they wouldn't be unsupported anymore, would they?
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CPU performance is not the issue with 11. The requirement for certain security-related features is, and the details apparently go well beyond having TPM 2.0 active. There's also the requirement for UEFI (I'm not sure which version) boot, and ability to use Secure Boot (preferably enabled to start with), and apparently some detailed hardware features that only became universal in 8th gen Intel and Ryzen 2. Like with earlier Windows, the raw CPU power is probably adequate back into some Core2 machines if not
Seems reasonable + Linux alternative (Score:2)
Microsoft seems to be going through a lot of effort to obsolete older hardware with this Windows 11 release. I'm really wondering what their angle is; my guess is they don't want to have to support such a large amount of hardware driver-wise.
Sounds good to me. I prefer Linux, so if you want to keep your box out of a landfill, try out a nice distro.
I am a software engineer and my favorite thing about working for a cloud company is not supporting old releases. MS is not a charity. They have no obligation to support the astronomical number of permutations of hardware out there. They support way more than Apple does. I don't mind buying a new box if Windows 11 is more tangibly reliable and stable because of it, like an XBox. I'm generally
Empty Threats (Score:4, Informative)
"...even security and driver updates may be withheld."
Given the level of risk Microsoft products hold against the United States, to include National threats within the Federal government, this statement is basically complete and utter bullshit.
Even Microsoft knows this.
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Read TFA, and follow the links. The ones that only link to other Verge articles. At the moment 100% of the reporting on this links back to a claim by The Verge. I'm not buying it.
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There's a difference between "works" and "supported". And there always has been.
Windows 11 may install and work on some hardware, but that doesn't mean Microsoft will support it. If you get it working, bully for you. But don't expect Microsoft to spend time and resources on keeping it working, or patching edge-case problems in an unsupported configuration.
That's the way it's always been. Why is it a surprise now?
Re: Empty Threats (Score:2)
Why? MS will support Win 10 with security snd fix updates for three more years, if security matters to you, and you are forced to run older hardware unsupported by Win 11, then simply run Win 10.
I gave a hard time imagining any organization of any real size (several hundred users) that a) insists on running the very latest version of Windows and b) insists on doing it on 4-5 year-old hardware.
Let me be the first to say... (Score:5, Insightful)
I feel better now.
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The first, really? My guess is that you are almost half a century late to the party.
OK, first on this story.
How far is too far? (Score:3)
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Disposable Society (Score:2)
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Bigger problem? People don't HAVE TO update to 11. Those infected with the "gotta have the latest" might feel left out. The rest are just using their computers like they use to before 11 was announced.
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Plenty of old software and hardware are still great, but we've had very limited windows (hah) where Microsoft has effectively supported multiple OS versions. They've already EOL'd 1909, which wasn't even 2 years old, and it's not hard to imagine them doing the same for more recent "windows 10" releases.
To be fair, this problem isn't new with windows 11, they've been terminating recent OS releases for years. With the new branding there will be more of a focus on this though.
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Anyone with "gotta have the latest" already upgraded their hardware at least once since 7th-gen Core CPUs came out. They won't be effected at all.
It's people that are trying to get more useful life out of still useful hardware that Microsoft drew an arbitrary line in front of. But I agree that Windows 10 isn't going to magically disappear from existence the moment 11 is released. This is all a whole lot of whining that happens literally any time a major operating system version is released for literally
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Unless you have some killer app, like the latest and greatest game (that is basically just an iteration of games we've played for two decades now), why do you even need brand new hardware?
My system is pushing ten years old and still does everything I need out of it. There aren't any new games being put out that would entice me to upgrade my hardware.
I suppose if you are doing video editing, compiling huge programs or something that was really CPU intensive, then you may find some huge advantages in upgradin
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Re: Disposable Society (Score:2)
Correction, people that simultaneously 'gotta have the latest OS' but remain oddly content to run it on 5 year-old hardware...
Until (Score:2)
The software you use stops working under windows 10.
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Apparently Linux doesn't agree [archlinux.org] with your "zero consumer benefits". Security benefits everyone just like getting our Covid-19 shot benefits everyone.
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In this case, it's for DRM, which doesn't benefit us as consumers. Most of the time it just gets in the way. DRM doesn't even stop online cheating, which is probably the biggest problem in gaming.
Of course, the people that want this are the copyright holders. Outside of fucking over artist, I'm not sure what they do. Maybe 20 years ago but now a days you really don't need some huge company to make and promote music.
This isn't about security but rather vendor control over the consumers' hardware.
Another reas
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The idea behind the TPM was that it is supposed to protect your keys, even if your computer gets rooted.
It is the only method that I personally find secure enough to be used for online banking without any external key-storage (such as a smartcard + card reader and one-time passcodes).
That said, I have very low confidence in Microsoft actually keeping the rest of the system secure enough for the TPM to matter anyway. I'll do my banking from Linux or from a dedicated banking computer.
Re: Disposable Society (Score:2)
But by simply invalidating millions if not billions of devices out there, because they don't have TPM 2.0 (which has absolutely zero consumer benefits) and creating gazillion tons of new e-waste this way, doesn't exactly feel like a "green" strategy at all...
Nothing is "invalidated" until 2024, when Win 10 support ends, and the hardware that no longer runs Win 10 in 2024 will be approaching ten years old.
Win XP, Win Vista, Win 7, and Win 8/8.1 have all had support dropped, yet still run on millions snd millions of devices, why is it different with Win 10 with three more years of full support from MS?
Ubuntu doesn't have this problem (Score:2)
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Security is suppose to be an open-source selling point so sooner or latter they'll have to deal with the same issues.
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Most of them you could just put linux in it's place and show them the Chrome web browser and they wouldn't notice any difference.
[Citation Required] (Score:5, Insightful)
The Verge posts an article expecting us to take their word entirely. All other articles covering this story just link back to the Verge.
Other articles from The Verge actually points to something public and verifiable. I'm taking this story with an industrial 25kg bag of salt.
Mind you the real story a few days ago was missed: Microsoft relaxed the CPU requirement to include some gen 7 CPUs, incidentally the gen7 CPUs which are currently shipped in their Surface devices including the still current "top of the line" device Surface Studio 2.
Re: [Citation Required] (Score:2)
They added a handful of "workstation/server" class CPUs from The earlier processor generation - big whoop.
CPU security bugs ... (Score:2)
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Windows 10 sets up as either a Microsoft account or a local. [windowscentral.com]
Hey Microsoft? (Score:2)
No, they won't... (Score:3)
My guess is that this is just more marketing bullshit to get more people to upgrade their PCs to profit both the OEMs and MS.
Remember, every PC sold means another license MS can sell.
Step 1) scare consumers into upgrading
Step 2) sell licenses with new PCs
Step 3) profit
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Remember, every PC sold means another license MS can sell.
This only works if users care. They don't. No one is going to upgrade their PC because they need Windows 11. They will upgrade their PC because after 8 years it'll fall apart and they need a new one anyway.
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nobody needs windows in 2021.
Sure, keep telling yourself that. You're not making any claims other than "those other people are extremist nutbags". Maybe try and understand other users sometime rather than just pontificating.
Re: No, they won't... (Score:2)
If MS wanted to profit off Win 11, why not just sell it, rather than give it away? Remember, this is a free upgrade from Win 11, and corporate (software assurance) customers will get access to the upgrade as long as they keep paying their current annual license fees. This isn't the money-grab you seem to think it is.
Odd... (Score:2)
Apple does this an no one blinks
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Apple makes their own hardware with published support lifespans. It is fully expected as part of the package deal.
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Re: Odd... (Score:2)
When will Apple drop support/updates for all Apple Intel hardware, only supporting their new M1/M1X processors?
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No they don't. Apple don't withhold any updates from a fully supported currently active in its lifecycle product. They withhold updates from obsolete OSes, but that's something completely different to what is being discussed here.
Incidentally I don't actually believe The Verge's shitty reporting without any citation for a moment. MS has gone out of its way to provide security updates for long outdated software in the past. If it looks like a duck, walks like a duck, and quacks like a duck, The Verge will ha
Kick backs from Intel and or AMD (Score:2)
MS not supporting older CPUs, TPM implementations (Score:2)
Given that MS is limiting the range of hardware it supports, I think it's perfectly reasonable to limit updates to supported hardware.
MS has said that a user could choose to install Windows 11 on older, otherwise unsupported hardware, but they won't commit to providing support for what is, literally, an unsupported configuration - to do so, to commit to providing updates snd security patches would convert your unsupported installation into a supported one.
Do people really not understand the difference betw
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Given that MS is limiting the range of hardware it supports, I think it's perfectly reasonable to limit updates to supported hardware.
MS has said that a user could choose to install Windows 11 on older, otherwise unsupported hardware, but they won't commit to providing support for what is, literally, an unsupported configuration - to do so, to commit to providing updates snd security patches would convert your unsupported installation into a supported one.
What I never quite understood is why Microsoft feels it has any right at all to withhold security patches to resolve defects in their own products. Almost as if they think releasing security patches is some kind of service they are providing to the customer when in fact it is the customer providing service by tolerating the inconvenience and vulnerabilities enabled by vendor defects.
You can't sell a toaster or a vehicle and choose to walk away from liability for faulty unsafe product defects even if proble
And meanwhile, Linux is still out there (Score:2)
saying, "I'll still love you even if you have a 486. I wouldn't suggest running a desktop, but you can try if you want. And people used to live on the command line and they did just fine."
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Well, so far, it's been the decade of Linux on the server, on the smartphone, on the tablet...Not doing to badly, if you ask me.
Microsoft does thing (Score:2)
Yay! (Score:2)
I'm fine with it... (Score:2)
... want to dig your own grave?
Ever heard the saying "customer is always right"?
Well, the customers might not know everything, that we already know, but that's not the point.
The point is that the customer votes with money and actions. We're heading for something WE call a sustainable future, which means recycle and re-use.
Linux has grown quite a bit, so much so that even Valve has released their steam "box" for Linux, shipping with IT as the main operating system, you're free to install any os of your choic
Re: Windows? (Score:2)
Yes, by the billions.
Re: So they are only supporting your CPU for 10 ye (Score:2)
MS is requiring TPM 2.0, Apple doesn't implement TPM in their hardware.
Apple does this all the time (they are on what, their fifth CPU family - 6502, 68000, PowerPC, Intel, and now their M1), though I'm not sure how long they support previous hardware, but they do have a history of doing similar things...