Will The Pandemic Mean Less Age Discrimination For Boomers? (psychologytoday.com) 179
An anonymous reader quotes Psychology Today's "Boomer's 3.0" blog:
More and more companies, especially those in the tech sector, are wisely concluding that the physical infrastructure constructed to put employees together in a building is largely inefficient if not unnecessary. Beyond the potential health risks, office buildings are expensive to construct and maintain, and rents, taxes, and insurance comprise a high percentage of operating costs. It makes simple fiscal sense to bypass these expenses, assuming there is an acceptable alternative with which people can effectively communicate with each other. The internet is that alternative...
Because a person on Zoom or its equivalent has far less physical presence than in real life, managers may be more open to hiring someone past middle age. Likewise, young adults may be more receptive to working with older adults in a virtual setting than in a real one. It may be an odd thing to contemplate, but less attention is paid to a person's physical attributes in a little square box on a screen than if he or she is in the same room.
For tens of millions of baby boomers, the prospect of corporate culture becoming more age-friendly due to advancing technology would be a very welcome development. Rather than end one's career at a predetermined age...most of today's sexagenarians and septuagenarians want to work as long as they possibly can.
Because a person on Zoom or its equivalent has far less physical presence than in real life, managers may be more open to hiring someone past middle age. Likewise, young adults may be more receptive to working with older adults in a virtual setting than in a real one. It may be an odd thing to contemplate, but less attention is paid to a person's physical attributes in a little square box on a screen than if he or she is in the same room.
For tens of millions of baby boomers, the prospect of corporate culture becoming more age-friendly due to advancing technology would be a very welcome development. Rather than end one's career at a predetermined age...most of today's sexagenarians and septuagenarians want to work as long as they possibly can.
The real question... (Score:3)
is whether or not Boomers _can_ work at home effectively
Re:The real question... (Score:5, Insightful)
is whether or not Boomers _can_ work at home effectively
They can probably work at home a lot more effectively than Millennials. While we're at it, though, let's just stop with this Boomer and Millennial rubbish
Re:The real question... (Score:5, Insightful)
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Re:The real question... (Score:5, Insightful)
During this lock down my wife does not fully understand the fact I'm working. At any point during the day she'll walk in and ask me to run out on an errand or do something around the house. When I tell her I'm working she says "you're just playing on your computer, they won't miss you for a few minutes".
Come on, we both know she's partially right. At home or in the office, we waste a lot of time.
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During this lock down my wife does not fully understand the fact I'm working. At any point during the day she'll walk in and ask me to run out on an errand or do something around the house. When I tell her I'm working she says "you're just playing on your computer, they won't miss you for a few minutes".
Come on, we both know she's partially right. At home or in the office, we waste a lot of time.
Doesn't matter. That's not how the psychology of work works. Whether at home or at the office, working or taking care of the house, no one is 100% effective.
What happens, and this is not limited to tech, is that the lines of personal life and work life get blended in unhealthy ways. In the same way we do not bring personal issues/items at the office place, we should not get personal interruptions at work when you work from home.
I'd say that in fact, to have periods of supposed "time waste" at work is es
Re:The real question... (Score:4, Interesting)
As a Millennial (born in '83), we're dealing with similar issues. Though my wife does make a conscious effort to respect my work time, the fact that I'm at home means, for example, that instead of being physically unavailable, I'm "available" to assist her when our toddler is being especially fussy on the changing table.
I enjoy working with people of all different ages, both younger and older than myself, but I do find that people tend to chafe when working with people of disparate ages. There's this implicit assumption people seem to hold that age is synonymous with experience is synonymous with skill, but we have all likely seen senior employees who perform far below what their years of experience would suggest, as well as young upstarts who perform far ahead of their peers. If I'm not humble enough to admit that someone more junior than me may know better, it creates friction. Likewise, if my senior is not humble enough to admit that I may know better, it creates friction. When we're all around the same age, however, it's a lot easier for people to defer without feeling like they appear weak.
Mind you, this isn't a justification for discrimination, but it does seem to be one source of discomfort—among many others, such as an inability to identify with people who don't have similar life experiences—that people have with others not around their age.
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Unfortunately (as a boomer) I'd have to say that may not be true for reasons you might not have considered. In my household, we have no young children, ours are grown. During the past 30 years of our marriage the situation has been I worked, my wife managed the household. I was at work during the day, and off work at night (mostly, I have been on support rotations). So I came home "after work" and weekends were "off the clock". These are the times I did the necessary work around the house. During this lock down my wife does not fully understand the fact I'm working. At any point during the day she'll walk in and ask me to run out on an errand or do something around the house. When I tell her I'm working she says "you're just playing on your computer, they won't miss you for a few minutes".
Unfortunately (as a boomer) I'd have to say that may not be true for reasons you might not have considered. In my household, we have no young children, ours are grown. During the past 30 years of our marriage the situation has been I worked, my wife managed the household. I was at work during the day, and off work at night (mostly, I have been on support rotations). So I came home "after work" and weekends were "off the clock". These are the times I did the necessary work around the house. During this lock down my wife does not fully understand the fact I'm working. At any point during the day she'll walk in and ask me to run out on an errand or do something around the house. When I tell her I'm working she says "you're just playing on your computer, they won't miss you for a few minutes".
That's though. It happens. It has happened to me, especially with my kids during the lockdown. I had to set my foot down and tell them that from 8AM till 5:30AM, I do not exist and that if I take a break (say to take a quick nap at noon), that I still don't exist.
If it isn't an emergency, I do not exist. It's hard for non-tech people, or kids to understand what's like to work on IT or software or tech support. I just stopped trying to make people understand, and I just tell them to go away (politely of c
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I'll ditto that.
Re: The real question... (Score:5, Insightful)
Meanwhile, the Xers will just roll our eyes and wait for both of you to STFU and get back to work.
Re: The real question... (Score:2)
And gen Z.
At the place I work right now we have all the four generations. The zomers and the x-ers are the best...
I'm still quite excited that gen Z turned out better (from what I can see) than the previous one.
My gen Z colleagues did not work one day from home; they basically ran the laboratories keeping the flow of products and services more or less intact in the last two months, with very little supervision. Bravo!
Re: The real question... (Score:4, Insightful)
That's the Slacker zen. Shut up and get it done so you can chill.
Maybe on the weekend these poor, helpless Boomers, burdened by having 2 people sharing one set of responsibilities, could learn how to make a screen out of wood scraps and paper. Maybe they even remember enough from the 60s that they can paint their feelings on it. And then they can surround their desk with this screen, and they're out of view. They're gone. They're at work.
But z$20 says these fuckers all have home offices, and they're actually just being pricks and refusing to close the door when they're busy. They're just all, "RESPECT MY AUTHORITAY!!!" with the door open.
If they were able to remember the 70s, they'd know that humans are just a type of shaved ape, and if you want people to act like you're busy, close the fucking door. And lock it, too. And don't answer it unless it sounds important. Make them call you.
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is whether or not Boomers _can_ work at home effectively
They can probably work at home a lot more effectively than Millennials.
I hope you really know what Millennial really mean. I'm tired of seeing people confusing Millenials with Gen-Z (or worse, Gen-X).
While we're at it, though, let's just stop with this Boomer and Millennial rubbish
Depends. We need to stop hurling trash at generational cohorts. It helps no one. With that said, each cohort has unique challenges, and it is good and helpful to try to understand them.
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is whether or not Boomers _can_ work at home effectively
Why do you think any particular generation is handicapped to this respect?
If you are referring to use of modern equipment including teleconferencing - that is not rocket science. It can be used by people with white hair (or no hair left). In fact, a millenial is more likely to have some issues here because he/she will try doing everything on a phone or a tablet which while multitasking on 7 different apps.
Age -per-se- is not the issue (Score:5, Insightful)
It's about experience.
What make's old fucks like me valuable is the 30+ years in the business, the experience, both dealing with complex issues, and with complex (valuable) people.
That also makes us expensive.
Working from home is not going to change that dynamic.
Re:Age -per-se- is not the issue (Score:5, Insightful)
That's true for some of us, the others are "well, I have done this for 30 years so fuck you if you want me to change now".
And those are really a problem.
Re: Age -per-se- is not the issue (Score:2)
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Maybe the world has changed and it will work now...
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Re:Age -per-se- is not the issue (Score:5, Interesting)
"well, I have done this for 30 years so fuck you if you want me to change now".
Honestly how often has this actually been an issue in reality? Plenty of young people who learn ONE technology and that is all they want to use. It is not a function of age, some people are not creative, at any age. In my experience as an old fuck, I find more younger tech people adverse to change than older people. Closed minds exist at all age groups.
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That's true for some of us, the others are "well, I have done this for 30 years so fuck you if you want me to change now".
And those are really a problem.
That is also a problem with young spoilt brats, who do not want to learn anything new.
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...or anything "old".
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When I was your age, I learned COBOL, young whipper-snapper.
Now I can finally afford a 1967 Mustang!
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Original price for 1967 Mustang (new): $2675
Average price now (good condition, https://www.nadaguides.com/Car... [nadaguides.com]): $27,000
Sigh.
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and that is the vast majority of them
Re:Age -per-se- is not the issue (Score:4, Interesting)
Now erase all of it.
A lot of us have the right to be angry. We're being forced to switch careers after building one. We get to be at the bottom of the totem pole. Our past experience isn't worth shit if our career doesn't exist anymore.
Going from owning a business to having to making minimum wage at a job that won't cover your expenses is seriously degrading. What we're coming to during this whole thing is that apparently no one will have the right to dignity.
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You know how much it sucks to take 20 or 30 years of your life and just flush it down the toilet? Think about it...take everything you've done the last 20 years. Your career, your savings, retirement, all of that.
Now erase all of it.
A lot of us have the right to be angry. We're being forced to switch careers after building one. We get to be at the bottom of the totem pole. Our past experience isn't worth shit if our career doesn't exist anymore.
Going from owning a business to having to making minimum wage at a job that won't cover your expenses is seriously degrading. What we're coming to during this whole thing is that apparently no one will have the right to dignity.
I'm sure that has been very hard. Good luck
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That's what the young, upstart boss hears; what's he's being told is "I wouldn't do that, we did the same thing 20 years ago, and it failed miserably".
People in tech who don't realize the actual technology is irrelevant, it's the process that matters, are the ones that slow things down and create the problems. The complexity is always there. Engineering is a process not a technology.
Most of my peers - the ones who literally built the Internet, personal computing, cell phones, flat panel TVs, basically all
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In other words; If that working from home doesn't come with a cut in salary, then no chance. Companies are still going to keep offloadin
May the contrary be? (Score:5, Interesting)
I've been working remotely for more than 5 years straight. In my experience working physically close to persons in your team makes sharing information much easier and faster. In fact, it is usual that companies offering remote work to ask new joiners to show for a short amount of time to the main HQ. Also, it helps a lot when the team joins from time to time in the same physical location. In addition to sharing ideas it fosters team building, and the remote communication afterwards is much fluent.
Said that, the most effective way of communication for sharing knowledge is videoconference. As a mentor, you can see the face of the other person and know if they understand or need a bit more time/different explanation. That's something difficult to achieve just via phone call, chat or plain documentation. It is not a substitute of them, but a good improvement.
As of this day, many persons prefer voice calls over videoconference, which looses many of the benefits forementioned. Many of this persons tend to be in the 'old' range. The new generations seem to be more used to this. So I wonder if this is going to be just another barrier.
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Welcome to my world that relies to 100% on communication on the factual level and cannot pick up on things like facial clues or body language.
Yes, I prefer voice calls over videoconferences. Actually, I prefer chat to voice calls. For the same person that a blind person prefers to fight in the dark: Leveling the playfield.
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Great, you'll be the first one to be replaced by a chat bot :)
Re:May the contrary be? (Score:5, Funny)
I am a chat bot, you insensitive clod!
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To be fair, I'm not sure that I've passed the Turing test. I may have Asperger's, and all my basic human interactions may just be a Chinese room I run on top of my actual personality. It may be the case that a chat bot may do better at some telecons than I do.
Re:May the contrary be? (Score:4, Funny)
I am a chat bot, you insensitive clod!
That's very interesting. How does it make you feel?
Re:May the contrary be? (Score:5, Interesting)
"Many of this persons tend to be in the 'old' range"
I live in the South of France and over the last 7 years most of my work has been remote. Prior and now, none of the work related calls have used video. Pointless and distracting. Try listening to people's voices, you can discern what you need out of that. Irregardless of my age, or the age of any project team ( always younger than me) I have never ever had to join a video conf call.
Con my current project, I have worked with three people closely I have never met and will never meet face to face. We have a great relationship, ad hoc calls/chats in between formal calls to exchange ideas etc.
"s a mentor, you can see the face of the other person and know if they understand or need a bit more time/different explanation. That's something difficult to achieve just via phone call, chat or plain documentation"
In any decent discussion of ideas you can always tell if the other person "gets it" as far as a concept or an idea or information imparted. Try listening more.
"The new generations seem to be more used to this." I repeat, as an external working on many different projects, not one ever used video. Had nothing to do with age.
Re: May the contrary be? (Score:3)
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Generation A (audio) versus generation V (video)?
I am a boomer and I much prefer video.
When I am talking, it is very useful to see if someone has a confused expression on their face, or is nodding or shaking their head, or perhaps is looking away and not paying attention.
There is a lot of non-verbal communication going on.
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Irregardless of my age
Are people using remote work/conferencing more forgiving when co-workers say silly things like "irregardless?"
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Video communication used to suck. It is better now, which can make it useful— It is more individual:individual vs group:group. But, you need to select a medium based on who you are talking to.
One of my partners is exclusively cell phone, as I need to lock her down to prevent her from “multitasking” my question away. Another needs email to start a dialogue, and potentially a follow-up call to close the issue. Some people work best with sms or slack, while FaceTime is great for another group
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As of this day, many persons prefer voice calls over videoconference, which looses many of the benefits forementioned. Many of this persons tend to be in the 'old' range. The new generations seem to be more used to this. So I wonder if this is going to be just another barrier.
I prefer email over both, and have done so since email became widely available. But then, I'm "old", lol
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I work in physical security, and being together in the same room enables the casual exchange of information that lets jobs flow smoother. "Is anyone working on NVRs in Asia? We just had a bunch of them drop offline." "Can someone grab that ticket for the emergency door masking? The sounder is going off and annoying people, but I have to leave for a meeting." "Is there a way to change the admin password on these 57 Sony cameras without having to log into every damn one of them?"
No- young managers age discriminate (Score:5, Interesting)
They mostly don't want employees older than themselves.
Older managers hire all ages but even they'll pick young people for high pressure projects based on the stereotype that young programmers are harder workers and can handle the hours better.
But we've had google managers under 40 here on slashdot saying "old" people (i.e. over 40) wouldn't "fit" with their culture. Blatant age discrimination.
Can you imagine them saying "blacks" don't "fit" with our culture or "women" don't "fit" with our culture?
But since SCOTUS ripped the guts out of age discrimination law, it returned to the bad old days.
The only way this would change is if you had blind interviewing. So maybe in a "gig" economy.
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Ok, boomer!
Re:No- young managers age discriminate (Score:5, Funny)
But we've had google managers under 40 here on slashdot saying "old" people (i.e. over 40) wouldn't "fit" with their culture.
Cite? As an over-50 Google manager (and software engineer), I'll tell you that anyone at Google who would say such a thing wouldn't fit with our culture.
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As a 53-year-old, I haven't seen this kind of discrimination. Younger managers I know don't really care how old you are. What they do care about is, do you know how to work with the technologies they need for their projects? If you're over 50, and you only know VB.NET, youa re in trouble. But if you've kept up with technology, and you know how to do dependency injection, .NET Core, React, and so on, you are still very much in demand.
Re:No- young managers age discriminate (Score:5, Interesting)
In my previous position, I was the oldest person in the company. About 10 years older than my manager. He found this odd, at first. When he found out that it didn't bother me (I hate management, and had zero interest in his job), then things were fine. In fact, we worked really well together: I handled the technical side of things, he dealt with all the management stuff.
One lesson that I learned a long time ago, that has helped me a lot: Inside everyone is a little kid. Figure out what made someone tick - how they acted - when they were a kid, and guess what: they're still the same, just with more facades on top. We don't really change much. If you can understand how a person ticks, you can probably find a way to work with them. Their age really doesn't matter.
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Sigh...
I wasn't aware Boomers who were between 11 and 30 years old were so concerned when they passed The Age Discrimination Act of 1975.
Thanks for the head's up.
Re:Follow the Lead of Japan (Score:5, Insightful)
On the other hand, it has also created a work culture where the pressure and stress is to the levels where suicide is a scarily common way to lose co-workers.
For instance, while in much of the world COVID-19 isolation and restriction has led to an increase in stress and mental health problems; in Japan it has led to a marked *drop* in suicides. While the reasons are complex and worth a decent study, the short summary is that "living in a plague is less stressful than Japanese work culture." While I admire their efficiency, that kind of culture is definitely not something I want to see spread.
https://www.theguardian.com/wo... [theguardian.com]
Re:Follow the Lead of Japan (Score:4, Interesting)
I spent a year working in Japan. The pressure and demands are no more than in most of the rest of the world (I've lived and worked on 4 continents, in 7 different countries). It's just that "face" is more important (even more so than in China). Being on a failing project will cause a massive amount of loss of face, and you'll be looked down upon by everyone you know.
The problem isn't a lack of talent or workers, it's a culture that refuses to accept that failure happens and people can go on and succeed the next time. It's not foreign workers - its their culture (and that's true of engineers as well as ramen cooks).
Re: Follow the Lead of Japan (Score:3)
Reminds me of one of my favourite Reddit short stories; "Mistakes Were Never Made". It's about an alien culture, but one which always sounded vaguely Japanese to me. Worth a read if you have the time:
https://www.reddit.com/r/HFY/c... [reddit.com]
Re: Follow the Lead of Japan (Score:2)
Or, use the H-1B program as originally intended rather than as a means to hire cheap labor.
Having spent so much time at home now, I suspect most of us have learned several new skills that were in âoecriticalâ shortage before the pandemic. There should be little need for H1Bs now, right? Right?
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Follow the lead of Japan: terminate the H-1B program. Without foreign engineers, there will be enough jobs for everyone, including older workers.
I have this feeling and just a observation H1B is necessary for this country because our K-12 system doesn't prepare those for engineering courses, and the engineering colleges too expensive for most domestic students. It's not like in the old days when student debt was unheard of it was much easier to get home grown engineers.
But do note that 50 to 100 years from now the population of Japan will be half of what it is today. There is already debate on how will that country deal with a aging demographics
Of course there will be look (Score:2)
Group 1, boomers who think the world should protect them
Group 2, non-boomers that resent having to make any adjustments related to boomers.
Most boomers and non-boomers will work it out. Me, being 64 and still working will restrict my world some so others do not need to.
Over all, Americans will work out the details mostly without help from the government politicians and bureaucrats.
They really just need to get out of the way as
Rather the reverse... (Score:3)
Boomers will face greater age discrimination.
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Why? Do you have a rationale for this discrimination? Or are you just throwing that out there because you think it's true?
I'm over 50, and have yet to experience age discrimination. Price discrimination, yes. But not age.
Yet another fad (Score:2)
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Pretty much this.
Some people hate working in isolation, and some people thrive on it. There are good reasons to work in a common space, to have in-person communication, and to take showers. There are also many tasks that do not require a high level of interaction, and roles where eliminating commuting dramatically improves your access to specialized talent.
The dominant pattern I see is people wanting interaction, which will force people back to the office, maybe with a few more concessions for periodic WFH
Works both ways (Score:5, Interesting)
Betteridge's Law of Headlines (Score:2, Insightful)
... says no. Particularly if the pejorative "Boomer" continues to be used to mean "someone older than me who has a different viewpoint".
This blog is awful. (Score:4, Insightful)
And you know it at this point: "less attention is paid to a person's physical attributes".
Implying that people are so concerned with physical appearances that they actively judge others in the office is a sign that the writer has never truly worked in a corporate setting and been busy enough in their role to only care about a person's contribution, not that their looks fit otherwise you clash with them somehow.
And "The internet is that alternative..." is another sign that the person, at a blog about Psychology, is actually out of touch with the issue of conferencing burnout, which is a real phenomenon hitting people. Offices are far from dead, because we're used to working in dedicated facilities for productive work and interaction. We're used to having a convenient proximity to colleagues rather than having to hope they answer our call, out of a slew of new calls they now have to answer. We're not all living in homes with space for a proper office, with a noise-free environment.
A parting thought: companies pay for those dedicated facilities for productive work for all of us. If those companies eliminate that perk, are they going to pay employees more so we can all begin finding homes with dens in a quiet part of town conducive to office work? No. So: offices will come back because they're the thriving social atmosphere a lot of people (but not all people) want to be in.
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Only if (Score:3)
Only if they take a pay cut. Currently the job pages are filled with jobs. Bachelor's degree 5 years experience ,in misc fields 40k a year.
Anyone offering a job requiring a degree for less than 60k is the reason why wages never recovered from 2008, and why wages won't go up yet again for another decade.
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If you accept a pay cut, you're the reason why wages are not going up.
If you want degreed jobs to pay a minimum $60k, then anyone with a degree has to refuse to work for less than $60k. Employers don't have a crystal ball which tells them how much they can cut wages. They simply offer a lowball wage. D
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Sure (Score:2, Funny)
We Boomers will be dead once this is over in a couple of years.
Comment removed (Score:3)
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And in 10-15 years, when Boomers start dying off, those developments situated on the outskirts with long commutes will sit empty and unsold.
The housing market is utterly broken.
The irony (Score:2)
Boomers? (Score:2)
Aren't most boomers already on pension? They are well over 60, and most born right after ww2 are now 70-75
Potential for backfire (Score:2)
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Flawed premise (Score:4, Insightful)
"Rather than end one's career at a predetermined age...most of today's sexagenarians and septuagenarians want to work as long as they possibly can."
To start with, anyone who wants to continue working should be offered the opportunity to do so, as long as they can make a meaningful contribution.
Unfortunately, too many boomers need to work as long as they possibly can. Either they never had a pension plan, or, their pensions were destroyed by corporate takeovers, bankruptcies or other changes, or their retirement savings plans were gutted by market forces, or bad investment choices.
Further, society puts a huge value on career, to the point where, for many, what you do defines who you are. This mindset can make the prospect of retirement frightening. When your personal value and meaning is tied to your job, you have huge emotional motivations to continue working, even when financially there is no need.
Those who flourish in retirement find things to be passionate about. It may be continuing to do the same work, by consulting. Volunteering is another option. Lots of non-profits could make good use of the expertise and skill sets retirees can offer, but, do not have the financial resources to pay for them. Being in a financial position to "work" for an organization or cause you believe passionately about, without worrying about a pay cheque, is a very liberating, fulfilling and satisfying experience.
Other flourishing retirees change course from their working careers. 35 or 40 years of employment usually creates basic skill sets that serve well when you decide to wander outside of your chosen career path, especially if you want to try new experiences and challenges. A growing number of retirees take up music, art, writing, and other forms of artistic expression. Others find hobbies that appeal. Many go back to school, either to start a new career path, or just for the joy of learning.
Retirement, like almost everything in life, is what you make of it.
Maybe but there's other groups... (Score:3)
I'm 45 and I know I wouldn't fit in at a "tech company" no matter how good at the actual job I was. Tech companies still seem to be wedded to the idea that innovation only happens when you have a group of ex-college students continuing their college life at work 14 hours a day sipping artisanal kombucha in hip zero-privacy office spaces. Bascially if you don't look and act like the group, you won't be chosen to work there. If they're willing to ditch at least some of that I would definitely expect older workers being given a chance...right now nobody over 35ish does.
One thing I'm worried about is the split I'm seeing. People with families are definitely going to be treated differently from the "childless Millenial" crowd. It's been reported by a lot of tech company workers that their productivity has shot up during the lockdown which is what's driving some to be more open to WFH and less demanding that people come back into the Team Pod once the lockdown is over. That works great if you're alone or with a partner in your apartment/house with a swanky man cave/she shed office space to work out of. Try doing that same level of productivity with 2 kids at home. I have to work all sorts of weird hours to balance the amount of work I have with kid care. Thankfully we're both still working, but we're super-busy and it's trough to split the household duties and still make all the work commitments. The tech companies are seeing the productivity increase because their employees with no life outside of work now suddenly have their commute time back and already had work/life boundary issues.
I worry that employers are going to say, "You know, back during COVID world, Bob over there committed code/closed issues/completed projects 5 times faster than Joe over here. Hmmmm, I wonder why that was....." If they make the leap to realizing that Bob had a life outside of work calling him...me and all the other Bobs in the world are in deep doo doo.
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If they make the leap to realizing that Bob had a life outside of work calling him...me and all the other Bobs in the world are in deep doo doo.
With any luck, those dumbass bosses will die off . . .
health insurance may kill US workers as places (Score:2)
health insurance may kill US workers as places can out source to Canadian places (if the over seas works idea is dead)
Nonsense Article (Score:2)
Who the f*ck did they ask? Not me. I'm 70 now and was fortunate enough to be able to comfortably retire in my early 60s. I've never looked back. I can understand people having to work to survive. I can understand that those who have to work may try to convince themselves that they want to work. But let's face it - work sucks. That's why they pay you to do it. It's a necessary evil but one most sane people want
Either way . . (Score:2)
Either way, we'll be OK . . .
Don't worry (Score:2)
Now that it's even easier to do remote work, there will be plenty of young people in India to replace you.
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assuming they can even be understood, or the fact 90% are reading off a script becomes realized, or that they have no conception of the common business cultural understanding or phrases in USA, or that they don't sell your proprietary information or blackmail material to a competitor...happens all the time with Indian outsourcing.
Re:If anything, it will get worse (Score:5, Informative)
" because older people have a harder time getting accustomed to changes in their environment"
Really? At 61, staying relevant in IT has been nothing but change. I know young people who learn one technology and can't see past what they know. It is not always a function of age, but of mindset.
"Most people who are above the age of 50 did not grow up with a cellphone in their pocket"
Jesus Christ! I have been using a cell phone for ..... 30 years. You are making some gross silly assumptions. Just because I learned COBOL in 1981 does not mean that as an IT architect I always see COBOL as the solution. My career has been nothing but change after change after change.
"because the old fart just don't get how to use the apps we now need"
Again, what stupid assumptions are these? Yeah we old fuckers are happy to use tools like Slack, Skype, and gasp, the internet in general. OMG, at 61 Slack was so so hard for me to understand and use ( not! ).
Our brains do not magically die when we get to 50. Your post and assumptions depress me.
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I have seen more than my share of people who stopped somewhere along the way. Who won't wrap their mind around noSQL because, well, why bother, SQL is how I'll access the database and it better responds or it ain't no database. Why bother with Python because that's just another script language that won't get anywhere. Why bother learning to use collab software when you can just schedule a meeting?
You are unfortunately not the gold standard.
Re:If anything, it will get worse (Score:4, Interesting)
Not all change is a good thing.
I would add that this the contrary (Score:2)
That is actually the contrary. We old fart had to teach our parents on how to record the VCR time and learn on our own. On the other hand I often see younger people deriding old tech and being unable to use it or grok it. My parents learned to use command prompt. It took weeks but they did. The younger guy I have at work as trainee are all "GUI" about graphical itnerfaces, and if you force them to edit a yaml, or use the CLI... Oh my ga
Re:If anything, it will get worse (Score:5, Insightful)
Most people who are above the age of 50 did not grow up with a cellphone in their pocket. Hell, they probably didn't, and maybe even still do not, use the internet beyond the basic functions of accessing something via their browser or using email.
Are you serious? 50 year olds are not boomers. We are Xers. No we did not grow up with mobile devices, but there are plenty of geeks from our generation. Xers have no problem with the internet or mobile phones. You are thinking of people at least 10 years older. 60s and 70s.
I spend all day every day writing c code and making web sites starting with fresh Linux VPS installations. I use my computer for a lot more than browsing and email. Does anyone still use email? Also just like Millennials I don't like to do voice comms. I prefer texting when at all possible to live audio. The world has changed and many people change with it regardless of age. Lots of people like change.
Millennials tend to lump Xers and Boomers together, but you are not one. So I don't get it. You should realize how different the two generations are. Someone my parents' age is a lot more like you are describing. But yes it's true about mobile phone typing. Not many non-Millennials can type that fast with one or two fingers. Is it thumbs usually? It's quite amazing.
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It is very GenX to be resigned to getting lumped in with the Boomers.
Re:If anything, it will get worse (Score:4, Insightful)
It's got nothing to do with getting accustomed to changes in our environment. Cell phones displays are simply too small to see any useful amount of data when your eyes can't focus on anything closer than 2 feet. When you hit your 50s, you'll understand. I was fine up til about 45 like you, but then my near vision deteriorated rapidly to where I had to get progressive lenses by 50, and at best they put my focus range back to what it was in my mid-40s.
Um, the cell phone market and Internet use exploded in the mid-1990s. Remember the dot-com bubble? [wikipedia.org]. Anyone in their 50s today was in their mid-20s then, and adopted cell phones and used the Internet just as eagerly as today's 20-year olds use smartphones and social networking.
The people you're thinking of are in their late 60s to 80s today. A good way to distinguish them is that they still insist on having a landline phone. I got rid of my landline in 1998.
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Or rather, it will seem to get worse because older people have a harder time getting accustomed to changes in their environment. Young people who grew up with cellphones don't have any kind of problem using them, they are essentially an extension of themselves. If anything, they have a problem functioning without one. They are used to telepresence and using various means to communicate, ranging from chatting to voice to virtual meetings to virtual collaboration tools. They have an easier time getting used to them and using them.
Most people who are above the age of 50 did not grow up with a cellphone in their pocket. Hell, they probably didn't, and maybe even still do not, use the internet beyond the basic functions of accessing something via their browser or using email. I'm one of the lucky ones who is 45 and was an early adopter of the internet, so I can move between applications fairly easily, but even I have sometimes troubles understanding why the hell I would use a cellphone to do something that I can more easily do on a computer. Typing on a phone will forever be beyond my comprehension (I really, really miss the tactile feedback, how the heck are you supposed to type fast on a keyboard where the keys are smaller than your fingers?) and I barely use it for active communication, only if I have no other means to do so. I'd never use it to chat with someone, at least not if I can somehow avoid it.
And that's me, someone whose job is basically tied to knowing the inner workings of many internet related applications. Older people will face a lot of hurdles and they will lead to age discrimination only getting worse because the old fart just don't get how to use the apps we now need. And with the only way to show them being via the internet and not in person, that doesn't exactly make it better.
What a bunch of bullshit assumptions. You're so stupid you actually think people above five years older than you somehow don't understand technology.
Very soon you too will be over 50 and hopefully you will realize what a clueless moron you were when you were 45.
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GenXers have been going along with the flow for most of their life, they'll adapt as they always have.
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It's not the years, it's' the mileage.
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If you're a software developer (boomer or not), and you have trouble using Zoom, you should be seen as less qualified for the job.
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Hiring people who will accept lower pay, is not age discrimination. If you're older, and willing to work for lower pay, they would hire you too.
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In USA yes 1941 - 1961 or 1964 depending whose counting what, there was baby boom all over world and started in late 1930s in some places.
Anyway, I'm a boomer and devops, so some of us know how computers work. My Dad made huge CNC systems later in his career (milling and lathes for navy propellers and jumbo jet struts for instance), and before that had to deal with PLC controlling his machines. He was born in 1941.
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Agreed. Offshoring had fallen out of fashion with DevOps and non-tech companies trying to act like Facebook. Companies are going to throw that all out for survival's sake (or just because they want to increase margins.) It was always the concern about doing 100% WFH -- once the MBAs see that things work just fine when people aren't in the office, the next leap is to get rid of that pesky FTE salary number on the spreadsheets.
Unfortunately I'm in a position to be seeing this too. The Wipros and the Infosys's