Amazon's Ring Planned Neighborhood 'Watch Lists' Built On Facial Recognition (theintercept.com) 68
An anonymous reader quotes a report from The Intercept: Ring, Amazon's crimefighting surveillance camera division, has crafted plans to use facial recognition software and its ever-expanding network of home security cameras to create AI-enabled neighborhood "watch lists," according to internal documents reviewed by The Intercept. The planning materials envision a seamless system whereby a Ring owner would be automatically alerted when an individual deemed "suspicious" was captured in their camera's frame, something described as a "suspicious activity prompt."
It's unclear who would have access to these neighborhood watch lists, if implemented, or how exactly they would be compiled, but the documents refer repeatedly to law enforcement, and Ring has forged partnerships with police departments throughout the U.S., raising the possibility that the lists could be used to aid local authorities. The documents indicate that the lists would be available in Ring's Neighbors app, through which Ring camera owners discuss potential porch and garage security threats with others nearby. [...] Mohammad Tajsar, an attorney with the American Civil Liberties Union of Southern California, expressed concern over Ring's willingness to plan the use of facial recognition watch lists, fearing that "giving police departments and consumers access to 'watch listing' capabilities on Ring devices encourages the creation of a digital redline in local neighborhoods, where cops in tandem with skeptical homeowners let machines create lists of undesirables unworthy of entrance into well-to-do areas." When reached for comment, Ring spokesperson Yassi Shahmiri said that "the features described are not in development or in use and Ring does not use facial recognition technology."
Amazon also told Massachusetts Sen. Edward Markey earlier this month that facial recognition has been a "contemplated but unreleased feature" for Ring, but would only be added with "thoughtful design including privacy, security and user control."
It's unclear who would have access to these neighborhood watch lists, if implemented, or how exactly they would be compiled, but the documents refer repeatedly to law enforcement, and Ring has forged partnerships with police departments throughout the U.S., raising the possibility that the lists could be used to aid local authorities. The documents indicate that the lists would be available in Ring's Neighbors app, through which Ring camera owners discuss potential porch and garage security threats with others nearby. [...] Mohammad Tajsar, an attorney with the American Civil Liberties Union of Southern California, expressed concern over Ring's willingness to plan the use of facial recognition watch lists, fearing that "giving police departments and consumers access to 'watch listing' capabilities on Ring devices encourages the creation of a digital redline in local neighborhoods, where cops in tandem with skeptical homeowners let machines create lists of undesirables unworthy of entrance into well-to-do areas." When reached for comment, Ring spokesperson Yassi Shahmiri said that "the features described are not in development or in use and Ring does not use facial recognition technology."
Amazon also told Massachusetts Sen. Edward Markey earlier this month that facial recognition has been a "contemplated but unreleased feature" for Ring, but would only be added with "thoughtful design including privacy, security and user control."
Main characteristic of people on these lists (Score:4, Interesting)
They're not prime members.
Virtual gated community (Score:3)
It probably will also learn to recognize skin color and clothing brands.
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Re:BeauHD makes we want a Ring camera that much mo (Score:4, Insightful)
What's it like to live a life where your convenience and comfort trumps all else? Do you even think about big ideas, like human dignity, privacy, self-respect, or anything like that? Is your life like a Pac-Man game, where your only goal is to consume as much as possible? I'm genuinely curious, because I can't imagine what it's like.
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You make it sound like it's a bad thing that people have real-life concerns, concerns addressed by a variety of tools some would like to take away.
Life isn't fair. War isn't fair. Any tool that gives *me* an edge over the criminal has my interest. Lord knows the criminals have a shit-ton of people looking out for them, ready to help them, coddle them, use them. That gives *them* an edge over *us*.
Nuh-uh. I don't buy your posturing, not for one second.
Bloomberg has shifted his position on stop and frisk, which is popular in these high crime neighborhoods, to be opposed to it for the Democratic nomination race, because that is more important to people living safely well away from the situation.
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"If a conservative is a liberal who's been mugged, a liberal is a conservative who's been arrested."
It all depends on where you're coming from. Sometimes literally. Cops in my area: Great people, we give them money. Cops where I went to college: Walking while male is a crime.
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Wow. All that over a $99 cheapo camera that films your porch.
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My "goal" is to not be a victim of crime. Perhaps you feel as if having people attempting to steal from you on a regular basis is somehow acceptable, and using technological to
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My "goal" is to not be a victim of crime. Perhaps you feel as if having people attempting to steal from you on a regular basis is somehow acceptable, and using technological tools to prevent it is somehow indicative of moral weakness. I disagree. So do millions of other people who buy and install security cameras.
Don't be obtuse.
Nobody cares about having cameras watching your property, or even that their outputs are being recorded there on your property.
The problem is when you effectively allow law enforcement to place a camera on your property that watches not only your porch but the surrounding area including the public sidewalk where the owners of adjoining properties must pass, and possibly your neighbor's property itself as well, and then all that data going into law enforcement fusion centers and going towards
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Don't be obtuse your
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B. A camera won't have any bearing on whether or not somebody steals "everything I own", considering that most of what I own is real estate.
C. Thanks for the kind thoughts, but as far as my family being "brutalized", I'll take my chances. The chance of that happening in the US is absurdly low. And again, a camera sending audio & video to Amazon or Google woul
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It's one thing to record that video. It's another thing to hand it to the cops on a silver platter. The same panopticon you're helping to build now in order to catch package thieves can be used to oppress you, and if history is any indication, it will be.
If you were a real nerd, you'd build your own surveillance system, not bend over to lick the shiny jackboots of Bezos and his best buddies. And you'd encrypt the video so that it couldn't be used without your permission even with a warrant and seizure of yo
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What technology used to catch package thieves went on to be used to oppress the masses? What a bunch of drama queens.
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If you were a real nerd, you'd build your own surveillance system
Out of what, some open-source on an old pc, a bunch of coax, and a bunch of horrible Chinese cameras? 10 years ago I considered it. Didn't do it. Installed an alarm, whose make will remain classified.
A Ring is a different beast altogether, it is self-contained, no need for power or wires of any kind unless you really want to (or can). The newest one is even usable by *gasp* renters, trailer owners, etc etc. Not just rich gated communities.
You don't deserve freedom or security, brownshirt.
Now that's unkindly flamebait. Somehow I expected better of yo
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"Out of what, some open-source on an old pc, a bunch of coax, and a bunch of horrible Chinese cameras?"
I would use something arm based, personally, so that it could function on low power. But whatever works for you, and your limited imagination.
"Here's your flame: You'd be surprised who I consider brownshirts. Hint: It's not the Conservatives or the Right."
This is my surprised face. See how surprised I am? I'm shocked.
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Then I guess I'm a "real nerd", because I have a custom multi-camera security system running SecuritySpy at my own home. So in fact I don't own a Ring camera (I consider them pretty mediocre compared to my Dahua Starlight cameras), but I cer
Re: BeauHD makes we want a Ring camera that much m (Score:3)
My house has been robbed twice since i moved there in 2012. Both times I gave the poluce footage of the intruder on USB. Net result? Now I am down two USB drives in addition to what was stolen.
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Re:BeauHD makes we want a Ring camera that much mo (Score:5, Interesting)
Yeah yeah yeah I'm hamming it up for effect. But most people think shit like this will never affect them because they're 'good people' and bad things never happen to good people. Until it does. Can you say 'Salem witch trials'? Similar mob mentality, to when everyone becomes a snitch.
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Yeah yeah yeah I'm hamming it up for effect.
I don't see that you are. The scenario as laid out sounds very plausible to me.
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Bigly Brother (Score:2)
The potential abuse of having a bunch of homes "watching" and tracking everybody who goes by is really high here. This includes Amazon's plans, Amazon's affiliates, and those who hack into the data without asking Amazon.
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Yep, and law enforcement is already getting sucked in. How long before we get pols demanding all this data be in central repository to "deter terrorists". From that, 'tis but a short step to condition government services on your "society score". The U.S. will have become China.
Good idea (Score:1)
This sounds like a good idea to me. Many security cameras already have facial recognition technology. I'm sure I am supposed to be upset somehow though.
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I do not think the "camera" has facial recognition capability. Software which does facial recognition is run against the video. Neither the Ring camera itself nor any of Amazon's software needs to perform "facial recognition", the video merely needs to be fed to a system which does.
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Correct. But some cameras do have on-board algorithms running facial recognition. With the Ring you could probably do facial recognition right now if you can get access to the streamed video.
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Maybe not the Ring, but the Dahua Ultra AI series cameras absolutely do have facial recognition built into the camera, along with license plate recognition, vehicle identification, and human figure detection. You can buy one for less than $600. In five years, those features will be standard in much cheaper cameras.
Fuck this goddamn world. (Score:2)
Easy fix (Score:2)
Amazon can shove their heads up their Ring (Score:3)
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It has nothing to do with "their hardware". You can use any hardware you like to take the video that gets processed by facial recognition software ...
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Amazon, Google, Facebook are data driven , and I do my best to minimise my foot print in their worlds. And a good way to do this is to keep their hardware and software off my lawn.
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Before you die, you see the ring. (Score:2)
Once homeowners purchase the Brady upgrade.
Promoting a siege mentality for profit? (Score:5, Insightful)
I know about thieves who steal packages from people's front porches - I've seen the YT videos. That said, I really wonder what percentage of potential Ring users are likely to be the victims of a crime that Ring might help prevent or solve. I also wonder if the fear that drives this kind of purchase, (like the fear that causes parents to make sure their kids never go anywhere unaccompanied), is based on media-created perceptions rather than actual statistics. One thing I AM fairly certain of is that a major motivation behind Ring's actions is to create and encourage otherwise non-existent fears that increase sales and profits.
Another thing that seems pretty clear to me: this is yet another example of vacuuming up loads of data, not necessarily because Ring has an immediate use for it, but because recent history proves data collection is or will become profitable. I think it's safe to say that the folks at Ring don't give a rat's ass about what kind of dystopia they may be helping to create - they only care that they're making money and that they'll have enough of it to not be affected by trivial things like a total loss of privacy for the vast majority of humankind.
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"This kind of purchase"? It is a security camera. And not a very powerful one. The "fear" is that someone is stealing stuff.
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Seems like if you are worried about package thieves then you would be better off buying a delivery box. The delivery person puts your package in the box, the door locks and the whole thing is bolted to something immovable.
No need to spy on everyone just to protect your Amazon purchases.
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It's also very nice to be able to "answer" the door when you're not home. And in the case of my Nest doorbell, I also like that when people it recognizes ring the doorbell, it announces their name.
The AI neighborhood watch thing is creepy, but I don't see any problem with a camera that shows me who is at the door, and a microphone/speaker that lets me talk to them. I think I get more value out of it than I would a delivery box... though the camera has definitely fixed my lost delivery problem, probably a
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If it was just a camera it would be okay, it's the recording and cloud aspects of it that make it Orwellian.
With AI like facial recognition we are building what Big Brother and the Stazi could only dream of. No need for vast numbers of loyal spies to watch everyone, a computer can do it and do a better job of it too.
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That said, I really wonder what percentage of potential Ring users are likely to be the victims of a crime that Ring might help prevent or solve.
Dunno, but I do know that after I installed a doorbell camera (Nest Hello), my problems with un-delivered packages stopped instantly and completely. I don't actually think that people were stealing them from my porch because it was only USPS-delivered packages that allegedly arrived, but didn't. UPS and FedEx deliveries never disappeared. Also, it only happened on the days that my regular mailwoman wasn't working. I strongly suspect that the kid who subs for her sometimes either lost or stole packages f
Crime is cool? (Score:1)
I guess we are OK with having a percentage of our population raped/murdered in order to have a fake sense of privacy? I guess we are cool with homicides and over hundreds of stranger abductions going unsolved? You do not have a right to not be recognized in public. You donâ(TM)t have a right to trespass. How many people have been injured or physically harmed (ie, not merely inconvenienced), let alone killed due to mistaken facial recognition or AI? Zero. Well the amount of people murdered in the US las
Straw man much? (Score:1)
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We can record as much video as we want and prosecute as many serious crimes as we want without a dystopian AI surveillance state.
If we civilians are allowed this kind of tech, I kinda shudder when I think of what the cops / feds / your worst boogeyman has.
I think the same every time I see a google earth / google maps sat picture. If they let us have *that*, WTF to *they* have?!
How wide is cast the net (Score:2)
I think it seems like an excellent use of facial recognition technology, to realize what cars and trucks are normally around your place, and alert you if something really new pops up.
Even better sometimes you get reports of suspicious activity, like people prowling around cars at 2am, usually with some kind of security footage - or package thieves. Who would not want to know if someone who had taken packages from others was nearing your front door?
Even more interesting to me, is that it could potentially r
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Facial recognition to detect cars? What is this, maximum overdrive?
"This all can be utopia, if we can just get rid of all the manufactured fear of technology the luddites seem to constantly press for."
If only you knew what utopia meant.
Maybe you need a dictionary.... (Score:2)
If only you knew what utopia meant.
You seem to think it refers to cars?
I'm a big fan of Disney myself, but I didn't say Autopia.
Here's one definition [wikipedia.org] for you to help you out.
Of course, my post was all about detecting both known cars and people which uses similar technology. Shame you keep yourself so ignorant as to how things like facial recognition work, you don't realize it can be expanded to other kinds of objects...
Lucky for you a charge a lot less than colleges for your continued education.
Might be interested if... (Score:2)
-Excuse me while I go yell at that cloud.
"Suspicious" was captured (Score:1, Insightful)
Their camera system, their images to share with the police, a company, the internet.
Their images to help build a better criminal detection system.
Let the world see who is doing the crime.
Let the police see who did the crime.
Walk onto private property to steal, want to do more burglary? Expect the police tog et the images. Expect the world to see the images.
Why the ne
The lawn got cut today. Confirms my suspicions. (Score:2)
The lawn got cut today. Perfect chance to study how good at clearly showing non-primary targets. That's the fear, right? That the Neighbor's Ring will get you? Boo!
Or that my Ring will show a crime in commision far away? And somehow this is bad?
Now, about my suspicions about Ring in real-world use: In a word, abysmal. The only one I can reliably 100% say "That's him!" would be the the guy who got to within maybe half a foot of the door. Everyone else was just too far away to make anything out other
So-called 'AI' and it's 'algorithms' (Score:3)
So tell us, Amazon: is your Ring doorbell cam AI going to automatically assume black people are suspicious? You don't have to answer, we already know.
Yay! Panopticon hellhole! (Score:2)
Nope.
No thank you!
Eat a bag of dicks! PLEASE?
Privacy, security and user control (Score:1)
It's like those popup windows on the web asking for permission before spying, measuring and selling every detail of your digital life. They often begin with the words "we care about your privacy". No, you don't, you care about the opposite, and if
Show me the money. (Score:2)
It's scary tech, but the headlines only ever cover the abilities, not the results.
How any bad guys have been caught on account of the direct ring-to-cops arrangement?
How much stolen stuff has been returned?
How many times has law enforcement accessed the system, for what duration, and for what purposes?
Where I live property crime is largely ignored by the police, even if ample evidence (including footage) is provided. Somehow I doubt this spy network is being used to catch low level criminals, and is instead
Bird's Eye View (Score:2)
what a great way to spy from above!