Catch up on stories from the past week (and beyond) at the Slashdot story archive

 



Forgot your password?
typodupeerror
×
Encryption Facebook United States Technology

Attorney General Bill Barr Will Ask Zuckerberg To Halt Plans For End-To-End Encryption Across Facebook's Apps (buzzfeednews.com) 191

Attorney General Bill Barr, along with officials from the United Kingdom and Australia, is set to publish an open letter to Facebook CEO Mark Zuckerberg asking the company to delay plans for end-to-end encryption across its messaging services until it can guarantee the added privacy does not reduce public safety. From a report: A draft of the letter, dated Oct. 4, is set to be released alongside the announcement of a new data-sharing agreement between law enforcement in the US and the UK; it was obtained by BuzzFeed News ahead of its publication. Signed by Barr, UK Home Secretary Priti Patel, acting US Homeland Security Secretary Kevin McAleenan, and Australian Minister for Home Affairs Peter Dutton, the letter raises concerns that Facebook's plan to build end-to-end encryption into its messaging apps will prevent law enforcement agencies from finding illegal activity conducted through Facebook, including child sexual exploitation, terrorism, and election meddling.

"Security enhancements to the virtual world should not make us more vulnerable in the physical world," the letter reads. "Companies should not deliberately design their systems to preclude any form of access to content, even for preventing or investigating the most serious crimes." The letter calls on Facebook to prioritize public safety in designing its encryption by enabling law enforcement to gain access to illegal content in a manageable format and by consulting with governments ahead of time to ensure the changes will allow this access. While the letter acknowledges that Facebook, which owns Facebook Messenger, WhatsApp, and Instagram, captures 99% of child exploitation and terrorism-related content through its own systems, it also notes that "mere numbers cannot capture the significance of the harm to children."

This discussion has been archived. No new comments can be posted.

Attorney General Bill Barr Will Ask Zuckerberg To Halt Plans For End-To-End Encryption Across Facebook's Apps

Comments Filter:
  • Say what? (Score:5, Insightful)

    by Volatile_Memory ( 140227 ) on Thursday October 03, 2019 @01:51PM (#59266788)

    "Companies should not deliberately design their systems to preclude any form of access to content..."

    Um, yes they should.

    • by drnb ( 2434720 ) on Thursday October 03, 2019 @03:52PM (#59267394)

      "Companies should not deliberately design their systems to preclude any form of access to content..."

      Um, yes they should.

      Yes, but also to fight end-to-end encryption is futile. If Facebook did not deliver it then someone else would and users, in particular the "evildoers", wound migrate. Its going to happen. The only way it won't is if the legislative and executive branches sign into law an end-to-end ban.

      Sorry but your going to have to put greater emphasis on that old-timey police work where you spend time with people. Bad guys, informants, etc to learn what is going on. Human intelligence, not signal intelligence.

      • by rtb61 ( 674572 )

        Sucker, end to end encryption with a privacy invasive company, what end to what end, hmm. Your back end to their front end or the end they are implying one user to another user.

        The scummy trick, ohh look Facebook will win because we are talking your back end to their front end and right their in their offices, your decrypted messaging. It is a dirty as it sounds.

        Now end to end, user to user communications, why would anyone use Facebook, like what the fuck, how stupid would you have to be, I mean to say, t

      • by AmiMoJo ( 196126 )

        Most evildoors are pretty thick. A lot of them want to be on the popular platforms too, because that's where they were first radicalized and that's where they can radicalize other people. It's no coincidence that the Christchurch terrorist decided to livestream on Facebook and told people to subscribe to a YouTube channel.

        How effective monitoring such communications can be is debatable. Clearly they didn't stop that guy before he murdered 60 people. Perhaps a more effective technique would be to go after th

        • told people to subscribe to a YouTube channel.

          Hey do you disagree with any of my murders today? Who would you kill?
          Let me know in the comments and don't forget to like and subscribe to my channel!

    • Our government already has access to all of our corporate and government held data along with massive data acquired from 5 Eyes plus massive data from spying on other countries, yet that did not stop Epstein, the Equifax hack, white nationalist terrorism, the Great Recession, Russian election hacking, the opioid crisis, the Maddoff Ponzi scheme, Deutsche Bank and HBSC money laundering, AIG/Lehman/Bear Stearns/Goldman Sachs/Halliburton/Glencore/Exxon malfeasance, overseas money laundering and tax avoidance,
    • by Miser ( 36591 )

      Agreed.

      Fuck Barr.

      Encryption should be used everywhere.

      If Facebook doesn't do it, the "bad people" (for varying definitions of bad) will just use open source or other off the shelf mostly unbreakable encryption.

      You can't stop it. Why bother trying?

      I remember when PGP was "illegal" - I downloaded it and used it just to spite these assholes.

  • The public safety problem is the government and (future) laws of said government? Where is the protection from that?
    • Where is the protection from that?

      In the voting booth on election day. There is no other peaceful alternative.

      Don't squander the opportunity to vote them out.

      • Re:What if (Score:5, Insightful)

        by cayenne8 ( 626475 ) on Thursday October 03, 2019 @02:19PM (#59266948) Homepage Journal

        Don't squander the opportunity to vote them out.

        The problem is, in the US...BOTH parties support this kind of surveillance and associated policies.

        • Vote them out.
      • Too bad I can only vote for my state/district's Senators and representative...

      • > In the voting booth on election day. There is no other peaceful alternative.

        Voting is far from peaceful. It's a system where the majority will enforce its preferences, killing members of the minority if they choose to resist.

        Don't vote - it's immoral and it's only there to fool you into believing you have a say in the matter.

        Develop superior market replacements for the monopolies governments have assumed and leave nothing for a majority to hold over the rest.

        "Democracy is two wolves and a sheep decid

    • Comment removed (Score:5, Insightful)

      by account_deleted ( 4530225 ) on Thursday October 03, 2019 @02:39PM (#59267046)
      Comment removed based on user account deletion
      • And when you add them back again, should they have access back to all the content that they had before?

        How would you do it?

      • by KiloByte ( 825081 ) on Thursday October 03, 2019 @06:38PM (#59267978)

        Do you remember playing Doom where two Cyberdemons are on either side of you? The trick is to let them fire at each-other and stay the hell away.

        That works only on Masterminds (the big spiders); cyberdemons are immune to each other's rockets.

  • Bah humbug... (Score:3, Interesting)

    by Anonymous Coward on Thursday October 03, 2019 @01:53PM (#59266794)

    Attorney General Bill Barr, along with officials from the United Kingdom and Australia, is set to publish an open letter to Facebook CEO Mark Zuckerberg asking the company to delay plans for end-to-end encryption across its messaging services until it can guarantee the added privacy does not reduce public safety.

    Yeah, and will they reciprocate by providing a transparent mechanism by which the citizenry can verify that the data they collect isn't being abused? ... and by abused I mean everything from labelling people and persecuting them for their beliefs to drunken NSA staffers amusing themselves by showing off people's private emails at a keg party.

  • by dgatwood ( 11270 ) on Thursday October 03, 2019 @01:54PM (#59266796) Homepage Journal

    The whole point of the first amendment is that the government doesn't get to decide that a form of expression — in this case, software — is illegal unless the creator can prove that it cannot be used to cause harm. Rather, the onus is on the government to prove that it does.

    The only reasonable response from Facebook would be a single-character email containing the middle finger unicode symbol in a very large font.

    • "the government doesn't get to decide that a form of expression"

      Yes, yes they do! And they have done it many many times all over the place, especially with "minority protections".

      "The whole point of the first amendment"

      Sorry, no one gives a shit about the Constitution.

      "Rather, the onus is on the government to prove that it does."

      Really? They can just shoot you without any reason especially the... "we shit our pants while looking at you" reason.

      "The only reasonable response from Facebook would be a single-

      • > Sorry, no one gives a shit about the Constitution.

        Agreed. And it's the Constitution that authorizes the government to exist in the first place.

        The whole central government exists entirely unlawfully at this point. Jefferson made the point that citizens have a moral duty to resist unlawful power. Cowards need not apply.

    • The government is quite in its right to regulate business. Even the speech of those businesses. You can't say that you offer illegal services, you can't make false claims about your product, you can't establish an illegal contract under the guise that it is an "expression", you are required to follow certain standards when using public airwaves, etc.

      The Citizens United ruling gave businesses some new legal rights. But they are not quite as free as an private individual is when it comes to expression.

      • by drnb ( 2434720 ) on Thursday October 03, 2019 @04:11PM (#59267460)

        The government is quite in its right to regulate business. Even the speech of those businesses.

        The US Supreme Court says otherwise. The Court ruled that groups of people have the same free speech rights as individual persons. This has been falsely represented as "corporations are people" in the famous Citizens United decision. However in this case the Court really said groups have free speech regardless of whether they are corporations, unions, advocacy groups, etc; and that all corporations have the same rights, in other words media/news corporation have no special right compared to other corporations, they all have the same right to speech.

        You can't say that you offer illegal services ...

        What illegal service? End-to-end encryption? First amendment violation to attempt making that illegal **within** US boundaries. We've been here before. The government could regulate the strength of encryption being exported but not its domestic use.

        • Interesting comment. A small nit: the 14th amendment was the basis "corps are peeps". Citizens United continues the tradition, for good or bad...

          "[a] headnote added to it by the court reporter at the time, which quoted Chief Justice Morrison Waite as saying: “The Court does not wish to hear argument on the question whether the provision in the Fourteenth Amendment to the Constitution which forbids a state to deny to any person within its jurisdiction the equal protection of the laws applies to these c

        • by dryeo ( 100693 )

          Where does the American Constitution give the government the right to make encryption illegal anywhere? The 1st is pretty simple, "Congress shall make no law"... not Congress will only make laws under this list.
          This is a big problem with America, everyone ignores the Constitution for various reasons. Want a list of why laws can be passed stopping free speech, pass an amendment instead of appointing corrupt Justices who say "The Fore Fathers really meant"...
          Both the 1st and 2nd are very simple amendments and

          • by drnb ( 2434720 )

            Where does the American Constitution give the government the right to make encryption illegal anywhere?

            "Article 1: Legislative
            Section 8
            The Congress shall have Power To ... regulate Commerce with foreign Nations ..."

            The specific regulation was to limit the export of munitions. Strong encryption was declared a munition and an export license was required. Hence different binaries for product for domestic use and international use back in the day.

            • by dryeo ( 100693 )

              Amendments override the original text, in this case Congress can't regulate speech with the Commerce clause and the 2nd limits the government from infringing on people owning arms and makes the point that it includes military arms, so the argument that they're munitions doesn't fly either.

              • by drnb ( 2434720 )

                Amendments override the original text, in this case Congress can't regulate speech with the Commerce clause and the 2nd limits the government from infringing on people owning arms and makes the point that it includes military arms, so the argument that they're munitions doesn't fly either.

                Again "regulate Commerce with foreign Nations". The amendments don't apply to foreign nations, they apply to the "people" of the United States.

                • by dryeo ( 100693 )

                  Where does it say that? The first puts a blanket ban on the types of laws that Congress can write and the 2nd says no infringing peoples rights to bear arms.
                  They were well aware of the Bill of Rights of 1689 which was specific, only Protestants (actually Catholics couldn't) could bear arms for self defence and only politicians had free speech in Parliament.

                  • by drnb ( 2434720 )

                    Where does it say that?

                    The US Constitution says that by using the words "foreign Nations" as something distinctly different than the "several States" and the "Indian Tribes".

                    And by identifying the "people" as the "People of the United States".

                    • by dryeo ( 100693 )

                      So we're left with whether declaring some speech as a munition is a workaround on the 1st amendment and picking and choosing which foreign nations. I never had a problem being in a foreign nation downloading the encryption (Netscape) besides some warnings IIRC

                    • I never had a problem being in a foreign nation downloading the encryption (Netscape) besides some warnings IIRC

                      All it takes is a court ruling to change that to either be illegal or to be legal. Our system is more than the Constitution, a history of court precedence matters.

                    • by drnb ( 2434720 )

                      I never had a problem being in a foreign nation downloading the encryption (Netscape) besides some warnings IIRC

                      All it takes is a court ruling to change that to either be illegal or to be legal. Our system is more than the Constitution, a history of court precedence matters.

                      There are court rulings. They say that source code is speech. But were are not talking about source code, we are talking about a thing that performs encryption. That the courts have chosen not to rule on the classification of something that does strong encryption as a munition and subject to export regulations leaves such regulations standing. Although in a moment of rationality the government did change what it considers to be strong encryption, its not as draconian as it used to be.

                    • by drnb ( 2434720 )

                      So we're left with whether declaring some speech as a munition is a workaround on the 1st amendment and picking and choosing which foreign nations. I never had a problem being in a foreign nation downloading the encryption (Netscape) besides some warnings IIRC

                      Only the source code is speech. At the time US Citizens traveling to some foreign nations with computers were warned not to take encryption software. In some nations, and this includes some developed western nations, it was considered contraband. Not by US law but by *their* law. Your laptop could be seized by their customs agents.

    • by mark-t ( 151149 )

      For fuck sakes, if *THAT* were the criteria, I'm pretty sure guns, which can be used to cause harm, would have been outlawed years ago.

      Yes, arms are a protected right in the USA, but so is freedom of speech.

  • Man in the Middle (Score:2, Insightful)

    by chuckugly ( 2030942 )

    The only justification I can see for this is if FB is actually going to promise end-to-end crypto and actually deliver a thing where they act as a man in the middle who can harvest data for profit. As long as their promise is delivered on in a verifiable way things like this are pretty Orwellian.

    Also, let's not let this get into Orange Man Bad territory - politicians and governments of all types are pretty uniform on this sort of desire to spy on citizens.

  • by nehumanuscrede ( 624750 ) on Thursday October 03, 2019 @02:02PM (#59266856)

    I can't really condone what Facebook does in the realm of data mining ( I don't use Facebook ) but it seems like Zuckerberg just can't win no matter what he does.

    Option A) Don't do anything to preserve privacy for users of their apps -> Get yelled at for not doing enough.

    Option B) Gets tired of Option A and decides to protect user privacy within their apps with EtE encryption - > Get yelled at for doing so

    Basically, the government wants him to give the appearance of doing something, while really not doing anything.
    ( Sounds like the training program for a future politician to me :D )

       

  • by anegg ( 1390659 ) on Thursday October 03, 2019 @02:05PM (#59266868)
    My financial services company appears to have designed their systems to keep my data confidential both on their systems and when I access it over the Internet, and I think that is a good thing. Would the government argue that my financial data needs to be exposed in transit so that they can monitor it to make sure my transactions are on the up and up all the time?
    • by Hodr ( 219920 )

      They don't need to, your financial transactions are already provided to them by the financial institution. Of course they wouldn't have a problem with secure communications if one side always told them what was said.

      • by anegg ( 1390659 )
        Ok.... my e-mail service provider has designed things so that my e-mail is confidential, both at rest and in transit. Will the government argue that my e-mail needs to be transmitted in clear text so that they can determine with whom and about what I am communicating?
        • by paulhar ( 652995 )

          How have they done this? Unless it's end-to-end, it's not encrypted when it gets to your email provider, and if said government tells them to save/copy/log, there is nothing you can do.

          • by anegg ( 1390659 )
            1. My comment was a thought experiment type of comment, not necessarily describing an exact existing system. But such a system could exist. 2. The term "end to end" is relative. If one end is my e-mail client, and the other end is the e-mail server, and I accept the fact that my e-mail is stored unencrypted from the POV of the operating system (although it may be stored in an encrypted file system), then I can still say that my e-mail service provider has designed things so that my e-mail is confidential
    • Would the government argue that my financial data needs to be exposed in transit so that they can monitor it to make sure my transactions are on the up and up all the time?

      Probably. So please stop giving them ideas....

  • If anything it will increase safety
  • by astone3 ( 6258628 ) on Thursday October 03, 2019 @02:17PM (#59266936)
    If a government said to its people that they must install an app on their phone which records all their conversations, and sends the recordings to the government for analysis, and any attempt to circumvent this means years in jail – well, you would hope that the people would kick out the government. ... The morals, rights & wrongs, are surely identical to here?
  • Just keep its nose out of everything! When your government is spying on you, it fears you... in the WRONG WAY!

  • by dimmthewitted ( 4023151 ) on Thursday October 03, 2019 @02:19PM (#59266946)

    Replace "Public Safety" with "mass surveillance".

    Site one example where illegally surveilling American's social media activity has ever led to preventing terrorism.
    This is such a violation of our 4th amendment rights.

    Do we really want to let any one power have unfettered backdoor access to dig up dirt on all of their political rivals?
    If companies are forced to leave a door open in their code, history has taught us that the key will secretly fall into the wrong hands.

  • by MitchDev ( 2526834 ) on Thursday October 03, 2019 @02:24PM (#59266970)

    Why are you making me root for Facebook here?

  • What I don't get about this is that Facebook would actually want secure messaging. Everything they've ever done has shown that they try to gather every possible last scrap of data from their users. If they are going to have secure messaging that the government can't get into, then that would necessarily be secure messaging that Facebook can't data mine.

    It wouldn't even surprise me if Facebook said they were going to do end-to-end encryption while already having agreed to put in a backdoor for themselves a

  • by Chromal ( 56550 ) on Thursday October 03, 2019 @02:32PM (#59267008)
    “...So long as the people do not care to exercise their freedom, those who wish to tyrannize will do so; for tyrants are active and ardent, and will devote themselves in the name of any number of gods, religious and otherwise, to put shackles upon sleeping men.” ~ Voltaire
  • Zuckerberg should take this letter as an admission that the 5-eyes group has core access to the facebook systems (without a warrant) and then accelerate their end to end encryption plans.

    Keep in mind the government can request any data from Facebook with a warrant and they will provide it. The only reason to oppose end to end encryption is they have backdoor access to facebooks systems and end to end encryption would make spying from that backdoor impossible.

  • by DontBeAMoran ( 4843879 ) on Thursday October 03, 2019 @02:41PM (#59267064)

    ...delay plans for end-to-end encryption across its messaging services until it can guarantee the added privacy does not reduce public safety.

    First of all, which definition of "public safety" is he talking about? Public safety from what? Other citizens? Terrorists? Their own government?

    Secondly, either encryption works or it doesn't. Mathematics does not care if you are working for the government, if you're the hacker kid next door or if you are a terrorist.

  • Since no one is actually eavesdropping facebook messaging. Or do they.
  • Dark times. When those in power want to snoop on everything and want to listen in on everything, the free society is almost dead.

  • by WaffleMonster ( 969671 ) on Thursday October 03, 2019 @03:13PM (#59267222)

    Barr takes a break from world conspiracy tour to inform US citizens companies they run should be as accommodating to as much government abuse as possible. Meanwhile the president of the United State is busy attempting to smear and illegally unmask whistleblowers while illegally hiding evidence of abuse of office.

    Probably from a political perspective not the best time to try and push a going dark agenda.

  • the real reason (Score:4, Insightful)

    by swell ( 195815 ) <jabberwock@poetic.com> on Thursday October 03, 2019 @03:15PM (#59267232)

    The stated reason:
    [encryption will] "prevent law enforcement agencies from finding illegal activity conducted through Facebook, including child sexual exploitation, terrorism, and election meddling."

    The real reason:
    Every repressive government needs to be able to stamp out protest at the earliest opportunity. We need to know what you are doing, what you are saying, what you are thinking so that it can be corrected before it becomes a danger to your caring leaders.

  • Please prove that your continued insistence on oxygen consumption is not a risk to security in the United States of America.

    Might as well write to the Pope and ask him to prove God is real.
  • If you're a dissident, if you're persecuted, hunted, if you're a Patriot, you're well advised to communicate with your others by means other than electronic if you're planning anything. Y'know, like protests, or other things The Powers That Be would object to.

    I forsee a resurgence in Enigma. There's codebook-making utils out there. There's a few Engima emulators, and some are being made with arduino.

    Before you snark, think of this: The German enigma use was broken because they were lazy and make mistakes

    • I forsee a resurgence in Enigma. There's codebook-making utils out there. There's a few Engima emulators, and some are being made with arduino.

      Before you snark, think of this: The German enigma use was broken because they were lazy and make mistakes.

      If you do it right, Enigma's almost uncrackable even today. If you don't know the starting positions and the plugboard setup for the day, gooood luck with that.

      There are still engima messages there were never decrypted because the rotors and plugboard settings w

  • When the efficiency of law enforcement becomes more important than the freedom of the people, you know you live in a police state.

  • What is this, 1997? Do these people still consider the internet to not be part of reality? "Don't do your cybers in a way might effect ppl IRL!" It's like TPB AFK was never released. Fuck these old-ass tech-illiterate troglodytes. And also fuck Facebook, but not because of this thing in particular.
  • doublething hard at work here.

  • I will willingly agree to a federal backdoor to view any and all messages (after rubber stamp court approves it) if we the people can have the same privilege for any and all federal communications.

Technology is dominated by those who manage what they do not understand.

Working...