Windows 10 October 2018 Update is Deleting User Data For Many (windowscentral.com) 210
New submitter CaptainPhoton writes: I updated my test PC using the Windows 10 October Update (1809). That seemed safe enough, so I proceeded to upgrade my production PC. I just encountered an issue where everything in the Documents folder was deleted, even though I had clicked the option to keep my files. Everything else in my user profile remains intact. I am curious, how widespread is this issue? Has anyone else here encountered this issue? Some articles are starting to crop up acknowledging this failure. Citing complaints from several users, Windows Central reports: Sometimes, when you perform an upgrade to a new version of Windows 10, the setup may move the user files to the previous installation backup located inside the "Windows.old" folder. However, according to those users experiencing sudden data loss, they looked everywhere, and their personal files are nowhere to be found.
Well it's your own fault. (Score:5, Funny)
You're supposed to be keeping your files on Microsoft Cloud. If you insist on using a product in a way other than the manufacturer intended, that manufacturer can't be responsible for the results.
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It could be argued that the initial fault was using Windows 10 at all ;)
But the part about the cloud backup was obviously sarcastic...
And to get serious for a moment, things like these are why I back up my files from time to time. I also have them outside the usual, Microsoft-designed scheme for storing user data. The original reasons were
- I want them close to the top level of the file system, not down below three more layers as in C:\Users\Lonewolf666\Documents.
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A downside in this context to mapping your special folders to non standard paths is that these paths become the special folders. I have long done this and do so with a separate partition. I suspect the apparent bug would have killed the data just the same regardless of where "Documents/My Documents/Personal" points, because it isn't the path tbhat is targeted; it is the alias that represents what is in use for the logged-in user.
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I seriously hope there were missing tags from the above comment. :)
There were, but the update deleted them....
Is this sarcasm? (Score:2)
I'm not sure if you're serious as I would expect that files in the "Documents" folder to be system specific and should not be touched/torched.
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I like to keep people guessing, which tells you everything you need to know :-)
Damn, we need to fix the tag (Score:1)
Or at least get the MS fanbois off the site.
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Certainly not specific to Windows Updates, but those folders are not immune to encryption and cannot be labeled as, "Do Not Encrypt," for those of us who would like some protection against ransomware.
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I run a small form-factor server running FreeBSD with ZFS, set to do daily snapshots. I never worry about Windows ransomware.
I'm surprised more people don't use some kind of snapshot-capable server. It's not exactly rocket science.
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I'm surprised more people don't use some kind of snapshot-capable server. It's not exactly rocket science.
For many people it might as well be rocket science - they would not have a clue of how to start.
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Anybody who has the brains to qualify as a Windows server administrator should be able to install FreeNAS on a beige box. That, plus block-level RSYNC copying and you've got a cheap safety net that doesn't affect how you operate on a day-to-day basis.
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This, I hear, is also starting to go out to home users. It is these who I fear will lose the most.
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Why in simple hell is this modded down?
We all know what snapshots are and how they work.
Ransomware often propagates to connected storage.
That shit can even ride the wire to cloud storage.
AC and I have seen that happen.
I use EHDs rotated out daily, completely disconnected from the network.
When I walked in and saw the ransomware lock, I had 5 individual drives with the prior 5 day's data.
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If your connected storage has copy-on-write or log-structured filesystem technology, and you still have control of the server itself, you don't have to worry if the ransomware encrypts the data on the server. The previous, unencrypted data is still there and easily accessible.
This technology is exotic in the Windows world but it's been mainstream on Unix for years.
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There's no storage technology that's any more exotic in the "Windows world" than anywhere else. This isn't he 20th century.
But how long does your snapshot last is the question? They're usually not set up to be kept for more than a few days, as that's all you need when a user calls and says "oops, I accidentally deleted/corrupted/messed up that file" - which is something like 85% of restores.
Also, ransomware will totally screw up your COW snaphot system unless you've seriously over-provisioned it, as it wi
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I'm retired and this is something I haven't thought of in the 3 years since.
Restoring from tape backup (in the day) was a pain because it's a matter of finding the right data set for the date of last known good.
I rarely had to use that method for an unintentionally deleted, or corrupted, file.
ETA was usually measured in hours.
Restoring a file from just moments ago was also measured in hours.
With shadow copies, I was a hero. For the few people who were interested, I taught them the simple, quick steps.
--
Rans
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There are two kinds of backup: backing up user files for user mistakes, and backing up the servers for server-level failure. Snapshots solve the former, well enough, but ransomware is really the latter, which I guess some people don't understand.
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Oh, I should mention that with COW file system based NAS distros, the normal practice is to take snapshots every 15 minutes and keep them for a month or two. It doesn't require massive overprovisioning because each snapshot in a COW file system only contains changed blocks. In a situation where 100% of your files are changed, you'd need to have as much space free to accommodate all the encrypted files. If you didn't have it, then the update would fail.
I'm quite a few years out of date on Windows adminis
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I'm quite a few years out of date on Windows administration, but the last time I looked into Windows snapshots they were a lot more costly than they are under ZFS.
Windows software snapshots are fine for an on-server technology. Obviously, dedicated storage boxes do better than filesystem options.
Where Windows led the way was providing a solid framework for making useful snapshots of databases (or mail servers that act like databases). If you just take a snapshot, it's useless - you need to tell the DB you're doing it, let it tell you it's ready, then tell it you're done. And you want that to work seamlessly with any DB provider, and either the builtin snapshot or
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But how long does your snapshot last is the question?
I have snapshots going back to 2015, so I'd guess the answer is "as long as you want".
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I recall, as I'm sure you do, when provisioning costs to mitigate this kind of disaster was prohibitive.
These days, solutions are cheap and it's a best practice to have copies of stuff crammed everywhere.
Hell, I used to pack user desktop unused HD space with crucial data.
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As a former storage guy, let me encourage everyone to solve all problems by over-provisioning. It's only money.
Re:Is this sarcasm? (Score:4, Insightful)
Definitely not rocket science but how many snapshots can you hold especially once all the data has been encryption with ransomware?
Millions, probably. After the data has been encrypted, you can't change it, so additional snapshots (which only record changes in copy-on-write filesystem like ZFS or BTRFS) will take up only metadata storage space. Meanwhile you'll still have at least dozens of good snapshots from before the attack to fall back on. Honestly Windows is at least fifteen years behind in filesystem technology, most people just don't *know* that.
I agree snapshots are not a backup solution, because if something happens to the server you lose them too. But running a tightly locked-down BSD fileserver on a private network is certainly a low risk for ransomware attacks.
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And this is completely wrong.
Encryption will rewrite all the data, and a 1 TB drive can only hold 1 copy of 1 TB of data. It is not a metadata change only when ransomware encrypts your data.
While the encryption is happening, Windows will delete more and more snapshots to recover space, until only 1 is left.
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Yes, and what will happen is the write will fail when space runs out, leaving your real data intact.
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Speaking of WIndows 7 is ahead of 10 as you can make snapshots. WTF happened when it was removed with Windows 8 and later?
It still is way behind but winFS was supposed to provide this and we all know that failed. I wonder if ReFS has anything like this for those stuck requiring win32 software?
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Re: ridiculous (Score:1)
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One of the theories floating out there is that it has something to do with being domain joined. Another theory is that it has something to do with OneDrive. The only resolution I've seen on forums is to run undelete software, otherwise the recourse is restore from last backup.
So the entire system is needlessly complex, otherwise these three things (local files, domains, a cloud service) wouldn't be tied together in such a way.
On my Linux systems I'd have to REALLY go out of my way to entangle those three things to that degree. And I still wouldn't have files going *poof* for mysterious reasons that can't be tracked down. Certainly nothing as trivial as a system update would cause something like this. This isn't something where you can say "ah well I see how a mistake could have done this". It's mind-blowing. What is the Windows updater doing that even allows this to be possible?
On Linux here's what a system update entails: unpack some archives, copy their files to the right places, update the package manager's DB. Maybe generate a new bootloader configuration, which happens automatically and is only necessary if there was a kernel update. The whole process can be put into the background and ignored while you continue using the machine like normal.
Apparently this process is FAR more complicated on Windows systems. That's remarkable considering the scope of Windows updates is far smaller (core system only) compared to what Linux package managers are updating. Amazing. Is the design of Windows really this broken?
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If you donâ(TM)t know what youâ(TM)re doing [...]
Oh, the irony...
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The rest of the planet has no trouble with apostrophes.. it's only apple that fucked it up.
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I make images of my boot drives periodically, but I'll move the schedule around if I know a Windows update is coming. I haven't needed to roll back to one yet because of Windows itself, though I have used an image to get back up and running after a drive failure.
I'm not protecting against just poor OS updates, but against a rather large array of possible issues. The extra effort I make to back up before an OS update is pretty minimal.
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Many, many years ago, when I was new to computers and didn't know very much, it occurred to me that I should make regular backups of all my data. Nobody told me to do that, it just seemed like common sense.
Congratulations for having the insight, the intelligence to do backups. Most of us who hang out here will also have the insight. There are however, unfortunately, many who do not understand the need of backups - some of these will be distraught by a loss that is avoidable.
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Just as I will stop prevaricating -- tomorrow.
Re: ridiculous (Score:2)
Procrastinators of the world unite...
Sometime.
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Or why you should always run Windows in a vm and do snapshots. It's so much easier to rollback after bad updates or when testing changes to try to get failed updates, like 2018-09 KB4458469 that is failing on all of our Windows machines, to rollback if you screw-up something or to reproduce the changes you made to fix it.
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Except that, unless you
1. Bend over backwards to configure Windows to ask your "permission" before installing updates,
2. Aren't unlucky enough to have Windows throw up a sudden, "Windows wants to install updates... [REBOOT NOW!] learn more" (with "(learn more)" neither appearing to be an obviously-clickable button nor underlined link, printed in a tiny font, and probably inserted into the middle of a longer sentence that itself is neither clickable nor calls obvious attention to itself... and REBOOT NOW! b
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Actually, I just remembered... dealing with symlinks in Windows is still kind of a mess. A few years ago, I tried writing a Java program that would write a file, then create (or replace) a symlink in another directory so it always pointed at the latest file.
It turned out to be hopeless. Not because Java can't create or modify symlinks (it can), but because Windows has bizarre, fucked-up rules governing who is (and more importantly, isn't) allowed to create & modify symlinks. From what I remember, one of
Re:Well it's your own fault. (Score:5, Insightful)
In a way, I'm half serious. I run Linux and only boot Windows occasionally, just to keep abreast of what's happening in that world. But I prefer Linux because Windows, like so many other digital platforms out there today, has an agenda: to shape my behavior as a consumer.
While Linux may not be perfect, and it comes with occasional hardware compatibility headaches, I value the ability to create the user experience *I* want, to orchestrate the kind of work flow *I* prefer, not take what Microsoft wants me to take. It's a tradeoff, but every operating system is a tool; the question is whose hand is it in?
Microsoft has always tried to leverage its desktop position to sell its other products and services. And they understand the day of the market dominance of the desktop has passed so they really do want you to use the cloud services. I don't actually think Microsoft would screw up its desktop OS deliberately, but for most people if MS does screw up, they don't really have any choice but to continue using Windows. In the long term entrusting their data to Microsoft's cloud services will almost certainly be the path of least resistance for those people.
I just prefer to stay well out of that.
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But I prefer Linux because Windows, like so many other digital platforms out there today, has an agenda: to shape my behavior as a consumer.
systemd: Hold my beer...
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Not so. Windows has improved enormously in the last two decades. It's just that it hasn't done so in a complete vacuum, you must also consider how any competitors have improved.
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It's improved, absolutely, particularly on a purely technical level. But it's always had the same flaw deep in its DNA. Windows is not designed around the needs of users. It's designed primarily for people who make other people use it.
It used to be a joke, but... (Score:3, Insightful)
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It's shiteware, has been for years. The only thing Nadella did was change it from general-purpose shiteware to locked down tablet appliance shiteware.
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Seems like Win 7 is pretty stable these days though.
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I'm running a Windows XP machine (security camera duty only) with a registry hack [pcworld.com] that makes it think it's a goddam ATM and I receive security updates pretty regularly.
I'm betting that, by now, hackers at large don't consider it low hanging fruit.
Windows XP registry hack keeps security updates rolling for the dead operating system
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Seriously?
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That only works for computers with internet access. Why would someone put an ATM on the internet?
Many, perhaps most, ATMs (all the shitty little ones no run by banks) still use dial up. They are vastly less secure! The security is a joke, because no one took the threat of an attacker discovering the ATM's phone number seriously. Remote "jackpotting" has been a real attack for almost a decade now as a result. The fact those ATMs mostly ran WinCE actually didn't matter, the security was so sloppy (built-in admin accounts with standard passwords, etc.) it didn't even rise to the level of old Windows
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Because banks are stupid. As long as the losses are less than the cost of beefing up security then that's what they'll do.
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Are you suggesting that for just 0.001 Bitcoin (roughly $6.40US) Microsoft will restore your Documents folder?
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People with basic Windows 10, not Pro or Enterprise, are essentially the QA department for Microsoft. The longer you can postpone updates the better.
Teaches you the importance of backups (Score:2)
Deleting user data ?
That's bad speak.
No, it rather "teaches you the importance of backups."
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Of course it matters.
It's the essential part of the lesson what makes you remember the lesson for life.
Be efficient, don't do backup courses without lengthy recovery time.
Microsoft employees with modpoints (Score:2)
Aww, did I hurt your feelings with the truth?
Maybe it deleted your data. (Score:1)
But think of all the improvements that came with this update.
Why do you try new install instead of update? (Score:2, Informative)
[...] "even though I had clicked the option to keep my files. [...]
As far as I remember, this option is available only when you start system installation from scratch...
Why would you overwrite running production system with "fresh" install?
We did 25 Pros update so far and no sign of trouble. Using Windows Update of course. Systems are being updated like that since 1607 and it never failed.
Enterprise version will likely get update over the weekend as it is, as usual, delayed a few days.
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That was my reaction as well. When did an 'update' even ask that question. I figured there was the possibility that it was a 'really big' update and so there was extra interaction involved. I wonder if anyone can validate that.
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since 1607
I feel like if the Renaissance era had been infected with Windows, we'd probably know about it
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Someone clearly hasn't heard of the Defenestration of Prague.
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Really? (Score:1)
People keep documents in the Windows Documents folder?
It happened to me! (Score:5, Informative)
23 years of files (Score:1, Insightful)
> "I have just updated my windows using the October update (10, version 1809) it deleted all my files of 23 years in amount of 220gb. This is unbelievable, I have been using Microsoft products since 1995 and nothing like that ever happened to me."
Fortunately for you, this was no big deal because you take regular backups of the last quarter-century of your digital life, right?
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The same guy wrote a review for a light bulb.
"1 star. The lightbulb in my study room eventually broke during the night, making the 500 books that I collected over the past 23 years completely unreadable."
Malcious deletion (Score:2)
Note with Daddy Nadella's handprint on it...
Dear User...
Nice data you got there.... ... you don't need no local storage.
Shame if something happened to it...
Pay up for OneDrive and you'll be pruhtected
WIndows 10 is unusable junk (Score:2, Insightful)
Seriously why would anyone run Windows 10 ? It's full of spyware, it comes with crapware that you can't uninstall (Cortana, Edge, Telemetry etc.) takes away your control over updates, it phones home providing who knows what information about your supposedly personal data, and now it deletes your files.
Coupled with its grotesque sub Fisher-Price interface ("is it a tablet ?, it is a phone ?, is it still Windows 98 ?") it's an absolute, complete and utter, complete train wreck. Utter garbage like something
Scary thought (Score:2)
My main backup is on Onedrive! I'm not clear on whether that gets blown away too. Looks like I'd better get my thumbdrive backup up to date before this autoupdates onto my box.
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Confusing, (Score:4, Insightful)
this is. [windowscentral.com]
We're not sure if these are just a few isolated cases and how many users are affected, but this should be taken as a reminder of the importance of creating a backup of your computer before going through any upgrade .
They are going back and forth using the terms "updates" and "upgrades."
Also, there's a reference to an "Update Assistant tool."
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It's both.
It's a feature upgrade, and it's a security update.
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Thanks. I missed the feature upgrade part.
As I said, I'm retired, so my observations are dated.
For production devices, I was never an early adopter.
I waited a week or so (except for zero day patch) just in case something like this screw-up happened.
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Busted!
That's why I suffer from imposter syndrome.
I faked a 36-year career and stuff.
windows makes it hard (Score:2)
I have not used windows in a very long time, but from what I remember and from what I have seen helping people at work to fix their windows machines Microsoft does not make backups easy.
In UN*X (BSD/Linux/...) all user files and configs are under one directory, where under Windows the files are spread all over creation. So backups and restores of user data is trivial on UN*X but under windows you probably need to purchase 1 or more proprietary backup application and that more than likley will not work 10 o
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In UN*X (BSD/Linux/...) all user files and configs are under one directory, where under Windows the files are spread all over creation.
Windows has been keeping all the user files in a single directory since Windows 2000, named "Documents and Settings". Microsoft renamed it to "Users" in Windows 7, IIRC, or possibly Vista. Under this directory are directories for each user who has logged into the system.
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.,.. until that MBA guy flips out about his PST archive folders in Outlook. God forbid his disk dies or you push an update to Office 365 and his PST files which are not in c:\users are not moved or worst uninstalled.
That can be a resume altering event as the IT guy always gets the blame and fired. Not the exec who can't be bothered with backups.
PST files/Archive folders in Outlook are the bane of my experience always with Windows support as everyone is so anal about every email from 1997 onwarding must be a
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In UN*X (BSD/Linux/...) all user files and configs are under one directory, where under Windows the files are spread all over creation
My experience is the opposite. On Windows, files are always (these days) kept in a well-defined set of special-purpose folders, such as Documents, Photos, AppData, and so on. On some Ubuntu machines that I have to maintain, configuration and application files are WHO KNOWS where, sometimes under the user's home folder.
Ransomware without the ransom (Score:5, Insightful)
Might be useful to start keeping a list of Windows 10 features.
1. Installs and enables RAT (Remote Access Trojan) by default with full access to your data and enabling privacy agreement authorizing extraction of user content without notification or asking first.
2. Installs unwanted applications not part of the operating system without permission.
3. Deletes your shit (NEW!)
4. Cyber stalking that can't be disabled and what little of it can be disabled is only temporary thanks to conveniently forgetful privacy settings.
5. Injection of advertisements into operating system's UI shell
6. Perpetual beta quality software updates
7. Installs updates and reboots whether you want to or not without explicit consent
8. Issues scary warnings during third party software installation for self-serving anti-competitive reasons.
9. Tricks users into creating accounts they don't need and steals credentials via typography and WiFi.
10. Transformation of minesweeper and solitaire classics into adware unless you are willing to pay a monthly fee.
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1. Installs and enables RAT (Remote Access Trojan) by default...
What are you talking about?
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What are you talking about?
https://docs.microsoft.com/en-... [microsoft.com]
"Microsoftâ(TM)s internal testing, additional data becomes necessary. This data can include any user content that might have triggered the problem and is gathered from a small sample of devices that have both opted into the Full diagnostic data level and have exhibited the problem."
" Microsoft engineers can use the following capabilities to get the information:
âAbility to run a limited, pre-approved list of Microsoft certified diagnostic tools, such as msinfo32.ex
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Deleting stuff isn't new. My first experience with Win10 (as an upgrade from Win7 on a test system) was that 11 applications were removed after the upgrade as they were deemed "incompatible". No warning... no asking permission... all the files were just toasted. I knew immediately that I wasn't going to install that shit on my production machine. The best part is that running the Compatibility Appraiser before the upgrade told me my system was compatible with Windows10. In fact, not only did many of my
I guess I'm lucky the last updated failed on all.. (Score:2)
of our Windows machines so we can't even get to this update.
It's the KB4458469 2018-09 update that keeps downloading over and over again killing our Internet connection. We run our own internal update servers WSUS, but because of problems with updates on our Dell Precision laptops we haven't approved any updates since last March so users keep checking for updates directly from Microsoft.
Why not? (Score:2)
General rules I have for my computers (Score:2)
We're All Beta Testers, Now (Score:2)
LOL (Score:3)
"Sure he beats me sometimes, but I know he does it because he loves me!"
User error (Score:2)
Back up or shut up (Score:2)
So basically go with LTSB (Score:2)
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Unfortunately LTSB is years old and missing newer things and the Windows Store and has all the problems of RTM of 2015.
For example, WIndows Update takes 2 - 3 hours! Also updates can corrupt easier too as MS fixed these in newer versions of Windows 10. LTSB lacks WSL for Linux. LTSB lacks the Windows Store for things like Hulu and Netflix which is nice if you are a road warrior and use a Surface or Tablet/Hybrid thin device. LTSB also is missing control of how the updates (not features are used) that have b
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Run Win10 "Pro" if you have to (Score:2)
WTF Microsoft?!
This just shows that if you are stuck in win32 land for work or games get the "Pro" version or upgrade to it if your PC came with home.
I have the pro version so I never had these problems. All my Feature Updates under Update settings are set to 90+ days. I won't get 1809 until February when the bugs are fixed. I have security updates also set for +9 days so in case a bad update is pulled I don't get it on my PC.
Also, I get Hyper-V too which is free with Pro and beats VMWare Workstation and Vi
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My own fault for using Windows for anything other than running Windows compatible software I suppose.
How would expect any software that isn't compatible with its operating system to run, Windows or otherwise?
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Most of the spyware was backported to 7 and 8.1. Conveniently MS now only provides monthly update rollups in which you cannot choose which parts to install instead of many separate patches like in the past.
That's true, but at least on 7 and 8 you can still remove it after installation, e.g. with remove_crw.cmd [github.com]. With Windows 10, it is baked in.
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Bill Gates would sue these Linux faggots for libel, but they don't have any money. If they did, they'd have a real computer.
Dude, you fail it. The Slashdot Troll Style Guide clearly states that you can't talk about "Linux faggots" without making an Alan Cox / Anal Cox joke. Sheesh, at least make a minimal effort. Trolls these days just aren't as good as they were in my day!
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I suppose you'll want bug and security fixes, plus enhancements, for Windows 7. There's a name for the version of Windows with all those things, it's called Windows 10.
There's nothing inherently more stable or safe about Windows 7 than Windows 10. In my experience, issues like BSODs are getting less frequent on Windows 10 than they ever were on Windows 7.