Hackers Who Attended Black Hat and DefCon Conferences Say Hotel Security Personnel Demanded Access To Their Rooms (the-parallax.com) 441
More than two dozen hackers and security experts who attended security events last week say security personnel at the Mandalay Bay, Luxor, Caesars Palace, Flamingo, Aria, Cromwell, Tuscany, Linq, or Mirage hotels had entered their rooms. Security news site The Parallax reports: Except for Tuscany, which is independent, all of these hotels are owned by either Caesars Entertainment or MGM Resorts International. And of the three hotel companies, only Caesars returned a request for comment. Richard Broome, executive vice president of communications and government relations for Caesars Entertainment, whose Caesars Palace is co-hosting DefCon this year with the Flamingo, said that following the deadliest mass shooting in U.S. history last year, "periodic" hotel room checks are now standard operating procedure in Las Vegas. On October 1, 2017, from his room at the Mandalay Bay, Stephen Paddock used semiautomatic weapons he'd outfitted with bump stocks to kill 58 people and wound at least 527 others attending a gated country music concert on the Strip below. [...] Two apparent Caesars security officers wearing hotel name tags displaying only the first names "Cynthia" and "Keith," respectively, as well as sheriff's style badges that looked like they came out of a Halloween costume kit, visited my room while I was writing this story. Cynthia told me that they are instructed to refer to the front desk guests who decline to allow their room to be searched.
After Cynthia and Keith declined to disclose their last names to me, I asked what they intended to do in the room. They told me that they would enter it, type a code into the room's phone line to signal that it's been checked, and then do a visual spot check. When I asked what they would be looking for, Cynthia replied, "WMDs -- that sort of thing." Other conference attendees reported similar but less pleasant interactions. Katie Moussouris, CEO of Luta Security, wrote on Twitter that two hotel security personnel were "banging" on her room door and "shouted" at her. She also said the hotel's security team supervisor "dismissed" her concerns over how the hotel was treating single, female travelers. Google security engineer Maddie Stone tweeted that a man wearing a light-blue shirt and a walkie-talkie entered her Caesars Palace room with a key, but without knocking, while she was getting dressed. "He left when I started screaming," she wrote, adding that a hotel manager, upon her request, said Caesars would look into whether the man was actually an employee. Stone tweeted that she left DefCon early because of the incident.
After Cynthia and Keith declined to disclose their last names to me, I asked what they intended to do in the room. They told me that they would enter it, type a code into the room's phone line to signal that it's been checked, and then do a visual spot check. When I asked what they would be looking for, Cynthia replied, "WMDs -- that sort of thing." Other conference attendees reported similar but less pleasant interactions. Katie Moussouris, CEO of Luta Security, wrote on Twitter that two hotel security personnel were "banging" on her room door and "shouted" at her. She also said the hotel's security team supervisor "dismissed" her concerns over how the hotel was treating single, female travelers. Google security engineer Maddie Stone tweeted that a man wearing a light-blue shirt and a walkie-talkie entered her Caesars Palace room with a key, but without knocking, while she was getting dressed. "He left when I started screaming," she wrote, adding that a hotel manager, upon her request, said Caesars would look into whether the man was actually an employee. Stone tweeted that she left DefCon early because of the incident.
What are Nevada's gun carrying rules? (Score:5, Insightful)
Shooting the guy who entered while she was dressing would have helped educate him and others for the future...
Re:What are Nevada's gun carrying rules? (Score:5, Informative)
Shooting the guy who entered while she was dressing would have helped educate him and others for the future...
IANAL but I googled and it seems that NV has a stand your ground law [kconnollylawyers.com], which does require that the defender not be the original aggressor. That is, chasing down young black men and then shooting them when you claim to feel threatened is not permissible, but shooting someone who enters your domicile and threatens you is. Policies vary on whether you may carry firearms into your hotel room, but the law does not prohibit it, and appears to permit you to defend yourself.
Re:What are Nevada's gun carrying rules? (Score:5, Insightful)
If you feel threatened by someone knocking on your door when staying in their home,
That is a garbage explanation. When you've paid for the room, it's your home until checkout time. Other things which are considered your home: a tent, when you are camping in it legally; an RV, same.
There's no clear and present danger,
Given the rates of sexual assault, I disagree.
there's no surprise,
Given your right to deny entry if there is no reasonable suspicion that a crime is being committed, I disagree.
Re:What are Nevada's gun carrying rules? (Score:5, Interesting)
Re:What are Nevada's gun carrying rules? (Score:5, Insightful)
I have had this happen to me as well. Moral of the story here is 1) knock as you suggest at least the first time your are entering your new room, 2) when you are in the room use the bolt / chain. This will prevent anyone card, key or not from just entering the room.
If someone is so aggressive about entering your room they tear door form its hinges, snap the chain, etc than you may feel justifiably so threaten that I will be sympathetic if serving on your jury and we are to determine if your shooting them was self defense.
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The hotel staff gives the key to the wrong room. I don't know how it happens either. You'd think the reservation system would prevent that sort of thing but I do a lot of business travel. Probably 25 or more discrete hotel stays per year. At least three times I have checked in been given room keys and told a given room number only to find - someone is already in there!
Re:What are Nevada's gun carrying rules? (Score:5, Insightful)
But you believe that in such a situation it would have been justifiable for them to shoot me?
No, but it would have been justifiable to point a gun at you in preparation for shooting you if you continued to advance — and if you did so, to shoot you if they felt threatened. I agree with various commenters who say that you should use a supplementary lock when provided, however, especially if you are armed. I believe that when armed, people have additional responsibility to be cautious.
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I do not agree that you have the right to threaten my life (point a gun at me) based on a mistake made by hotel management.
They make a mistake, you make another. If you open the door and it's obvious you're in an occupied room, which it should be if you are paying attention, you should back out quickly and contact management to resolve the issue.
You keep your gun out of harms way until it is clear that you are in danger.
Yeah, the old "you should wait until it's too late" argument isn't gonna fly in a state with stand your ground laws.
Re: What are Nevada's gun carrying rules? (Score:5, Funny)
If he walks in and finds the room already occupied, he can shoot you for being in his room? You two can have yourselves a nice little shootout to figure out who gets to keep the room?
That's correct, if you are assigned an occupied room then a battle to the death shall ensue, using any weapons available to any person, including any passers-by who want to assist either party, and the survivor gets to stay in the room. It's right there in the agreement. The legal term for this is the Thunderdome Clause, it's basically boilerplate. MAGA
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Amen. Disrespectful fuck.
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That right to bear arms is sure working wonders for the liberty of the individual.
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I dunno. Unlike Europe, the US has not had dictatorship in living memory. Or currenrly if you consider Russia amd Turkey and some small places.
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Shooting the guy who entered while she was dressing would have helped educate him and others for the future...
Problem: company has a policy that I don't like. Solution: injure/kill the low-paid employee who's carrying out that company policy. ???
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Vegas hotels frown on weapons in guest rooms.
I spent a few days in the Arizona back country with my family, and then spent a couple of days at the Venetian. I had a locked case with me for a gun which I wanted to check with hotel security for the duration of my visit. I made it about halfway through the lobby (with a 6 year old boy in tow, no less) before security stopped me. I told them I had a weapon I wanted to have held in security, and everything was fine.
This was what seemed weird about the Mandala
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People going to Vegas often are there to put on a display for a show convention, and have a lot of large bags in tow. It wouldn't be unusual even for a single person to have that much.
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How do you know it's not just other Defcon attendees messing with you with plastic police badges and fake uniforms going around room to room planting stuff on people and causing mischief? Hahahaha.
Re:What are Nevada's gun carrying rules? (Score:5, Interesting)
Shooting him for what? It is hotel property. You gun nuts are bizarre people.
When you are a paying guest in a hotel room, you have rights [gsblaw.com]. You are [theoretically] protected against illegal search and seizure until checkout time at the end of your contracted stay. Las Vegas was built by organized crime, however, and casinos are used to acting like organized criminals and will continue to do so as long as they can get away with it.
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Have you ever read the little disclaimer on the inside of the doors in EVERY hotel/motel in America? They specifically say your room can be searched by management and they can terminate your stay at will. You can sue afterwards for repayment of fees but that would be all you can do.
In America you only have the rights the law gives you, otherwise you are at the mercy of businesses and the rich.
Go back to the fields, slave.
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In America you only have the rights the law gives you, otherwise you are at the mercy of businesses and the rich.
That's how it works everywhere. That's why a) the concept of taxation, law, courts, police etc. is valid (though hands-off government is not) and also why b) why wealth inequality is a problem.
Re:What are Nevada's gun carrying rules? (Score:5, Insightful)
The US Constitution has rights ENUMERATED in it, but those rights exist APART from it. The enumeration part is clarification that the Government jurisdiction with respect to those rights are EXTREMELY limited, requiring additional measures to abrogate or in some cases are absolute.
The reason this distinction is clear and enumerated in the Constitution is because of the abuses Governments are wont to do. It is a trigger point for going to DoI level rebellion against said government.
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The US Constitution has rights ENUMERATED in it, but those rights exist APART from it.
That's a lovely fantasy, but in practice, you only have those rights which someone else will protect on your behalf because you're just one person and you can't protect them from everyone yourself. The only universal, natural right is "do as thou wilt". Everything else is a construction, and is meaningless without protection.
The reason this distinction is clear and enumerated in the Constitution is because of the abuses Governments are wont to do. It is a trigger point for going to DoI level rebellion against said government.
This distinction is made clear in the constitution because the constitution has two primary purposes: 1, self perpetuation of government, and 2, limitation of government for the purpose
Re:What are Nevada's gun carrying rules? (Score:4, Informative)
Which means they have even less reason or legal backing to tell people to roll over and enjoy the cavity search.
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Wait. What cavity search?
Opportunist is referring to the anti-terrorism laws like the Patriot act which includes body cavity search provisions.
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Believe me, I'd rather let you search my body than my laptop.
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Totally deserving of execution though, killing people is the right solution to every problem.
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It's been a while since I've stayed in a hotel. What happened to the deadbolt locks that used to be on the inside of every door?
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Re:What are Nevada's gun carrying rules? (Score:4, Interesting)
There's always the trusty door jamb and security bar.
https://smile.amazon.com/Maste... [amazon.com]
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That breaks the door (and probably door frame) which the hotel will then have to pay to have replaced.
Don't say, "they'll charge the guest", because it would be a PR nightmare when it turns out that the person inside was a naked Blonde White Woman.
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Re:What are Nevada's gun carrying rules? (Score:5, Funny)
Yeah. The same happened to a friend of mine who was working at the IMF, and in almost the same way. He got a blowjob and a good fuck. Had to quit his job though, because the FBI was filming him on behalf of Obama, who didn't like his policies.
Sad.
Why can't I ever stay at the good hotels?
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So... it's better to have a president that fucks his secretary than one that fucks the country.
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They typically wear a uniform and are easily identified.
And this is why social engineering attacks work so well. As long as you look the part, people don't even question you.
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Shooting him for what? It is hotel property. You gun nuts are bizarre people.
Um, in NV the stand your ground laws might not allow shooting the guy, but it's going to be a huge court fight because it's in the grey area of the law. Entering a hotel room, unannounced, is roughly the same thing as entering your home under the same circumstances and just shooting an unknown and unexpected intruder in your home is perfectly acceptable. However, it's clear that entering a home in this way would likely be associated with criminal activity, trespassing, stealing stuff and the like.
In this c
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His intent was not obvious at the time, and was handled wrongly because he didn't knock.
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Re:What are Nevada's gun carrying rules? (Score:5, Funny)
But I am doing to save them from a lifetime of trauma. Believe me, shooting someone who saw me naked is best for everyone involved.
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Yes. It is not cool. In fact, I wouldn't stay at the hotel again and would demand a apology. However I wouldn't SHOOT THE PERSON.
Of course not. You don't own or carry a gun with you, do you?
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Oh really? Thanks for the info.
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Well done, that comment is a pretty good example of modern discourse.
"My opponent is in favor of letting people barge into rooms and rape the occupants. My opponent opposes people defending themselves from rape."
Yeah, I'm sure you really accurately captured the essence of that argument. Great job.
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It's hotel property that they agreed to rent to you. There are laws governing this agreement, among them being hotel staff can't barge in to your room whenever they like.
https://www.gsblaw.com/duff-on-hospitality-law/guest-room-privacy-and-the-fourth-amendment
That link only discusses the 4th amendment expiations of a hotel gest. Hotels may not allow searches of a room without a warrant, but hotel employees may enter rooms for cleaning and maintenance. So they can fix and clean stuff, but they may not allow Police access w/o a warrant.
The question here is one of self defense. Are you afforded your 2nd amendment rights in a hotel room? The answer basically is that you have all the same rights you would have if the room was your home. So, if you can legally sh
Re:What are Nevada's gun carrying rules? (Score:4, Insightful)
How about entering a dressing room where 15 year-olds are putting clothes on for a Miss Teen Universe pageant? Is that creepy enough for someone to deserve a bullet?
https://www.rollingstone.com/p... [rollingstone.com]
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Re:What are Nevada's gun carrying rules? (Score:5, Insightful)
Entering a hotel room (Private Space) while a woman is in a state of undress, is creeper shit, and he DESERVED a bullet. What if it was a naked 10 year old and he pulled that entering unannounced BS? You Leftists are fukked in the head. Buncha pervs and pedo supporters. Pathetic.
You know, I hate to point out the obvious here, but someone who happens to enter a room unannounced may have also made a simple mistake. Not everyone who opens a door to find someone naked inside is automatically a "creeper" wanting to do harm, and plenty of people have been shot and killed by mistake, unfortunately including parents mistaking their own children for an intruder.
Think twice before threatening someone's life for the petty crime of being embarrassed, and hope someone gives you that same courtesy.
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I'd agree that threatening someone's life is wrong.
But the crime here isn't embarassing someone. It's violating their privacy because of fear of a one-in-a-billion risk. The crime is also being part of a trend of decreased privacy in the US because of irrational fear.
Are they capital crimes? Nope. But if someone barging into a hotel room without consent got decked in the head with a chair by a scared 5-foot-tall lady, I'd not feel even slightly sad.
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and what if there was some mixup at the front desk and that person was told that was their new room and given a key? THIS HAS ACTUALLY HAPPENED TO ME..
Only special keys that are not given out to guests can trip open the deadbolt. What, you don't throw that when you're in a hotel room? What if the front desk screws up and gives someone else your room number and key?
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I've got an intrusion alarm to set across the door when I'm in my room and it's locked (e.g. sleeping). Screams holy hell when the door opens. Staff are 'requested' at login that anyone opening my locked door, at any hour, should call first. They keep a copy signed by me and someone there signs my copy. If they refuse to sign I make like I'm cellphoning a cop to be a witness to their refusal and give 'em the shuffle about how cops can serve as public witnesses (my husband, an officer, says to say it exac
Re:What are Nevada's gun carrying rules? (Score:5, Insightful)
I have never once been in a hotel (or motel) that doesn't have a mechanical privacy lock [amazon.com] on the door. It can't be opened from the outside without considerable trouble (and noise).
Do people not know what these are for?
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They seem easy to open.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?... [youtube.com]
You can even buy a dedicated opener.
https://www.nathosp.com/produc... [nathosp.com]
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Now you're proposing that hotel security employees are going to force their way through a privacy lock that a) conclusively demonstrates that someone is in the room, and b) conclusively demonstrates they have made a conscious decision to enforce their privacy.
At that point, the hotel employees do deserve to be shot and killed for forcing their way in.
This isn't about attendees illegally breaking into each other's rooms at a hacker conference to rape their teddy bears. This is about hotel security employees
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A woman has reasonable expectation of harm from any man that enters her private living area, be it home or hotel, without invitation.
Bollocks. She has reasonable expectation of explanation, and should indeed be wary of the potential for harm, but presence is in itself not indicative of a threat of harm.
Stop teaching women to act like victims, you're doing nobody any favours.
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Sees her naked? No. Tried to rape her? Yes.
One of those is being an asshole, the other threatens someone with death or serious bodily harm.
How for her to tell the difference: wait for the attack to start.
"That satisfies my design for society!" said the wealthy lawyer, who closed his lawbook then went to lunch at the cute restaurant with outdoor seating, with the $45 soy turkey and soy cheese sandwich on gluten-free whole wheet bread. It was his favorite place on Martha's Vinyard.
Move away from Vegas then (Score:5, Informative)
Simple - Why on earth would you use that place to host your customers if that's how they're going to be treated.
I'd get the f*ck out of there and never come back.
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Well, there IS that gambling angle, coupled with corporate expenses paying for the stay...
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Yes? How do you feel about cleaners and the like entering, while you're away from your room?
When I am renting a room, I want everyone else to STAY THE FUCK OUT OF IT!
I put the "Do not Disturb" sign on the door when I get there, and it stays there, for the duration of my stay.
If someone knocks on my door, I do not answer - but I do prepare myself for unauthorized entry.
If someone DOES enter - they're generally unhappy that they did...and it's never happened a second time.
So no CCTV? (Score:2)
It seems to me that a simpler solution is to have someone actually watch and pay attention to the cameras. They aren't going to catch some guy with one gun either way considering how you can break them down. This only works for someone with an arsenal.
Fuck up both ways (Score:2)
When that shooter was allowed to carry all that hardware, unchecked, and massacred all those innocent people, that was a hotel fuck-up. Now the same hotels fuck-up in the other direction. Wow, just wow.
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And what would they expect to find? So they find an arsenal of weaponry with him. Are guns illegal in Las Vegas? When did that happen?
If the story travels, just wait for the next gun nut convention to be held in a hotel when you plan to go on a killing spree. Want to bet that you'll be the one with the lowest amount of guns in their room?
Re:Fuck up both ways (Score:5, Informative)
When that shooter was allowed to carry all that hardware, unchecked, and massacred all those innocent people, that was a hotel fuck-up.
It's not like the guy was just strolling through the lobby with a couple AR-15s with 100-rd drum mags slung over his shoulder. He brought them in in bags. Even the number of bags he used, if they could even passively track how many bags he actually had, isn't excessive for Vegas with all the conventions, meetings, etc. So unless you think hotels need to start doing bag checks or xraying everything there's not much they can do.
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The response seems like an ass covering measure. Sure the guy had a ridiculous number of guns, but if if he'd had two or three would that have meant he couldn't have killed a load of people as easily? He probably didn't have the guns hidden very well, but had he expected searches would it have been hard to hide guns and
Everybody or Just Attendees? (Score:3)
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Or probably non CompSec-scene members accept or even support these "security measures" after the shooting.
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Attendees who can't read fine print (Score:3)
The few attendees who s tweet bloody murder about this were in rooms with signs "Don't disturb" hanging for days, and had gotten in with large cases of who knows what. In modern Murricah, that's an invitation for a check. Nobody wants to be the next place where the mass murderer shoots from.
So many comments from people who don't go to Las Vegas often.
After the shooting, hotel policies changed at ALL hotels on the Strip, among all companies. As someone who stays at Caesars properties heavily and at MGM properties occasionally, I can tell you that the "Do Not Disturb sign is a thing of the past. DefCon attendees in particular should be aware of this, and caterwauling on Slashdot is a sign of their own obliviousness. The Strip hotel I'm staying at now says "Room Occupied" on the front -- not "Do
If you don't have anything to hide (Score:2)
why can't we see you nekkid?
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Have you seen the average attendant of such cons? I hardly want to see those people clothed, let alone naked!
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why can't we see you nekkid?
I generally wear clothes to prevent traumatizing those around me more than to cover up things I am trying to hide. So sure, I’ll walk around naked but don’t blame me if it causes a lot of PTSD.
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Use your locks! (Score:5, Insightful)
Google security engineer Maddie Stone tweeted that a man wearing a light-blue shirt and a walkie-talkie entered her Caesars Palace room with a key, but without knocking, while she was getting dressed.
Before I saying anything, to be clear:
1. Ms. Stone did nothing wrong.
2. The man entering the room was absolutely criminal in entering a room like that without knocking.
That said, when you're in your room, lock your doors. Use the deadbolt, use the little chain, and anything else available.
Normally, the deadbolt alone will prevent the key card from working.
While the chain is nearly useless from keeping someone from breaking in, it gives a few seconds of delay to the intruder, giving you time to respond.
Same category as leaving your laptop in the passenger seat of a car. You don't deserve to have your window smashed and laptop stolen, and it is NOT your fault if someone does it.
It still is a better idea to put it out of sight, though.
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Re:Use your locks! (Score:5, Insightful)
Um, yes. It was criminal. The crime committed was criminal trespass. There is no low/high bar for criminal activity; there is simply what is stated by the Nevada Revised Statutes (NRS). I suppose there are areas where there exists room for interpretation. This is not one of them.
In the state of Nevada, as is true in most states, the 4th amendment rights you enjoy in your home are generally extended to your hotel room. A warrant is required for entering a hotel room as part of an official investigation. The hotel may have cause to enter your room if they believe criminal activity is taking place, housekeeping, maintenance, or a disruption of other guests. In no circumstance are they allowed to enter without announcing themselves first. /IANAL
Freedom from illegal search is one of the many rights that makes the U.S. the country that it is. Unfortunately, we have to defend those rights with extreme prejudice against the scared little bunnies of our nation that carelessly toss them out to feel a little safer.
Attendance (Score:2, Insightful)
If it starts to dip because no one wants to be subjected to this shit, the venue will soon be changed.
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If it starts to dip because no one wants to be subjected to this shit, the venue will soon be changed.
You're talking about the crowd who has endured 120-degree heat sitting in makeshift rooftop tents to attend technical talks.
Something tells me it's gonna take a lot more than this to keep the kids away from What-Happens-Here-Stays-Here, USA. Call it tradition at this point. You know, kind of like the stupidity of hosting DEFCON in the desert during the hottest time of the year. Needless to say, some things will likely never change.
Sad, sadder, saddest. (Score:2)
Caesars would look into whether the man was actually an employee.
This alone is sad.
Even sadder is the fact that they are doing these "checks" at all
And the saddest thing is probably that after the Las Vegas shooter, this could be even justified. More or less. Not in a "this will help" way, but in "how can we prevent this in the future" way. I bet someone was forced to present an "action plan" to his managers.
Thank the white guy and the mass shooting (Score:2, Interesting)
Caesar's says they will check rooms daily [lasvegassun.com].
That these checks happened isn't surprising since the hotels did publicly announce their new policies. Then again, had that white guy not gone a shooting spree, none of this would have happened. Actions have consequences and all that.
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Just out of curiosity, why did you feel the need to mention the shooter's race three times?
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It's no different than being treated as a criminal by the TSA after the 9/11 attacks.
A few bad apples spoil it for the rest of us.
Well (Score:3)
That's why I always have 2 wedges in my baggage, to put under the hotel door, blocking it, so that nobody can enter while I'm in the room, key or no key, cleaning, security or robbers.
Overkill (Score:2)
Why is it every time some sort of awful tragedy happens, we have to go completely overboard with "preventative measures." Who runs a hotel like that? No one! These hotels will likely not be in business much longer if they persist on this. This sort of behavior garners a lot of bad reviews and publicity. Yes yes, no such thing as bad PR, but this could be the rare case of.. yeah, security goons barging into your room unannounced, that's going to ward off potential guests. At least, I hope it does.
That
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Not new - Read the news (Score:2)
JFC... DefCon attendees should be among those most aware of security policy changes, and this has been going on since last Winter. Changes are everywhere, but it's especially prevalent in "soft target" vacation destination areas, such as Las Vegas or Orlando.
https://www.meetingstoday.com/newsevents/industrynews/industrynewsdetails/articleid/31803/title/-do-not-disturb-policy-updates-spark-debate [meetingstoday.com]
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Nah, we're more the passive-aggressive type. We FUBAR your card-based hotel room locks to retaliate.
Re:Hotel Safes (Score:4, Insightful)
I usually leave an USB key or two lying about in my hotel room. If you're lucky, you steal the one with the malware. If you're unlucky, you steal that one [usbkill.com].
Re:There is a good reason for that. (Score:5, Insightful)
Well, back in McCarthy's time people at least folded when asked "have you no shame, have you no decency?"
Today, they'd simply say "nope" and carry on.
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They don't want you anyway.
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You can let them in, but you don't have to be nice or polite. "You done yet, guy?" "OK, now get the fuck out of my room." "See you tomorrow, lady."
If everyone was abrasive and abusive to hotel suckurity "just doin' their jobs, doot de doot de doot" then there would be fewer people willing to do the job. Or at least they'd make the checks more cursory and faster, since no one enjoys being the target of rudeness and anger.
Gee, I can't imagine why some techies get bad reputations as complete douchebags *eyeroll*
Just because someone has a job you dislike, doesn't mean being a complete dick about it is the proper response. I stay in Vegas a lot and I've *never* had an unprofessional experience, nor one that lasted longer than 30 seconds at most. Long enough to look around, confirm I hadn't trashed the place, confirm I didn't have 10 suitcases with me for no apparent reason, and confirm wasn't currently recreating Lain Iwakawa's