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China Security

China Blocks Foreign Companies From Mapping Its Roads for Self-Driving Cars (thedrive.com) 110

Posted by msmash from the tough-luck dept.
The Chinese government is blocking foreign companies from mapping its roads in great detail, according to a Financial Times (paywalled) report. The restrictions, which reportedly do not apply to Chinese firms, are being instituted in the name of national security. China is concerned about spying. From a report: China has restricted the recording of geographic information for more than a decade because it believes giving other countries access to that information constitutes a security risk. Geographic surveys can't be performed without permission from the government, and many digital cameras don't record GPS coordinates for geotagging, as they do in other countries, according to Fortune.
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China Blocks Foreign Companies From Mapping Its Roads for Self-Driving Cars More

China Blocks Foreign Companies From Mapping Its Roads for Self-Driving Cars

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  • Then the cars aren't truly self-driving (Score:5, Insightful)

    by b0s0z0ku ( 752509 ) on Monday December 18, 2017 @11:20AM (#55761627)
    If a car needs a detailed map to drive itself, instead of responding to visual cues like signs, curb position, road markings, then it's not truly "self driving." Self-driving cars should be able to follow maps of the level of detail given by (say) Google Maps -- they should be able to operate with GPS info and knowing how roads are "networked."

    • and data roaming fees can add up fast with that (your car is locked to ATT that will be up to $15/meg in canada)

    • Re:Then the cars aren't truly self-driving (Score:4, Insightful)

      by K. S. Kyosuke ( 729550 ) on Monday December 18, 2017 @11:44AM (#55761849)

      they should be able to operate with GPS info and knowing how roads are "networked."

      Just like human drivers without maps and any knowledge of the neighborhood, right? Very efficient!

      • needing to have mapped out lanes for interchanges is bad vs being able to read markings / sings on the fly.

        • That's nice and all, but what happens when you plug in a location (i.e. address, name of location, etc) and the software has no idea where the fuck that even is?

      • Re: (Score:2)

        by sl3xd ( 111641 )

        Just like human drivers without maps and any knowledge of the neighborhood, right? Very efficient!

        Before people took snapshots of their dinner and pasted it over the internet, getting lost was easily the most effective way to find the best restaurants.

        Younger generations will never know the joy of pulling over, hanging out the window and begging for directions.

    • Re:Then the cars aren't truly self-driving (Score:5, Insightful)

      by Tablizer ( 95088 ) on Monday December 18, 2017 @11:47AM (#55761871) Journal

      If a car needs a detailed map to drive itself, instead of responding to visual cues like signs, curb position, road markings, then it's not truly "self driving."

      The more clues it has, the better. This applies to humans also.

      But the bigger issue here is unfair competition: local firms get extra info that foreign firms don't. Being we have a huge trade gap, partly because of this kind of favoritism, I hope the Trump administration makes an issue out of it and threatens sanctions.

      This is the kind of thing voters hoped Trump would focus on, instead of Twitter fights with athletes. He used to always rail against China's trade practices. Let's hope the Good Trump comes out instead of the Distracted Trump.

      • Re:Then the cars aren't truly self-driving (Score:4, Informative)

        by WindBourne ( 631190 ) on Monday December 18, 2017 @12:02PM (#55762029) Journal
        trump can not, nor will, make an issue out of this.
        So far, trump has shown more favortism towards china and russia than either W or O. Hell, he PROMISED to stop China's dumping and once his kids got their IP from china, he turned china into his best friends, while they are laughing at what a traitor Trump is.

        But, CHina will crack down further in a short bit and prevent any western car maker from having self-driving vehicles in CHina. They really are a danger esp. since CHina is in a cold war with the west.

        • I don' think Trump cares because it doesn't matter..

          IF you somehow think that having access to the road networks in China is of some importance to the USA, I can assure you that it's not. Most folks in Chia don't have the resources to buy a car to start with and most that do live in the city and don't need one. Self Driving cars are of almost zero importance to them. They won't buy them, so who cares about this?

          Now if you think there is some military reason to have China's road networks clearly mapped a

          • Re: (Score:2)

            by afidel ( 530433 )

            China is the worlds largest car market, outstripping both North America and the EU. Heck China is almost big as the EU and North America combined (24M vs 32M (15+17))

      • I am many things, but certainly not a Trump voter, but I am starting to feel some tit-for-tat is necessary. If the Chinese block access to foreign firms or increase levies, while their companies get free reign both at home and internationally, then something is wrong.

        A policy should be instated indicating that if a foreign nation provides unfair access, then the same should be coming. At the same time if we already do create unfair barriers, then we should accept that is fair game another country will to do

        • certainly not a Trump voter, but I am starting to feel some tit-for-tat is necessary

          Well, Trump doesn't really believe in tit-for-tat either.

        • Our entire relationship with China since deciding to admit them to the WTO back in the 90s has been "unfettered access to the gigantically profitable US market while you're free to heap restrictions on American companies and ruinous tariffs on American goods." How do you think China accumulated those hundreds of billions in US treasuries? They made a shit-ton of money and could keep their home markets safe from ruthlessly competitive US firms. It's a far stretch to say that this should change now, US pol

      • This is the kind of thing voters hoped Trump would focus on, instead of Twitter fights with athletes. He used to always rail against China's trade practices. Let's hope the Good Trump comes out instead of the Distracted Trump.

        Unfortunately Trump badly misunderstands the realities of the situation with North Korea. China has somewhat more leverage than it will use and but not as much as western governments assume. Neither Russia nor China want the North Korean problem resolved at all. China doesn't really want things to get worse, but they do enjoy seeing the USA reeling about what to do there, as does Russia. Neither country really wants anything to happen that makes the US stronger. Having the US distracted by a minor powe

      • The Chinese already slashed import taxes on certain imported goods from 17% to 7% after Trump's visit to Beijing. Did we not hear that? He already did something, but your news didn't report it (surprise).

    • Re:Then the cars aren't truly self-driving (Score:5, Insightful)

      by vux984 ( 928602 ) on Monday December 18, 2017 @11:55AM (#55761953)

      "If a car needs a detailed map to drive itself, instead of responding to visual cues like signs, curb position, road markings, then it's not truly "self driving."

      What it if it doesn't 'need', what if it just 'benefits from' it?

      I mean, are you personally better at driving on streets that you know? You know which lights are stupid, the road with really bad potholes, you know about the blind driveway on the corner of X, you know that there's a school at Z where kids are often playing. You know there's always a lineup that backs out onto the road from the starbucks at Q between 7am and 9am, and that the construction at F is makes left turns hard, etc. You know every driveway, twist, turn, and ramp, and elevation change, where its safe to pass, where its safe to pull over, where to get gas, where to park.

      Are you really just as comfortable looking at an out of date map for a city you've never been to?

      You don't need the extra information, but it sure helps.

    • Re: (Score:2)

      by dfm3 ( 830843 )

      ...and knowing how roads are "networked."

      So maybe they'd need a database of information about the locations of roads and how they're connected to one another... say, a map?

  • google maps does not even line up right in china.

    It's like there forced to be off a bit.

    • Re: (Score:3, Informative)

      by dwheeler ( 321049 )
      China indeed forces geographic data to be "off" a little bit compared to the rest of the world. For more information, see: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/... [wikipedia.org] in particularly the discussion on the GCJ-02 datum (colloquially Mars Coordinates).
      • Doesn't line up - I wondered about an area I discovered in a foreign country I lived in. About a 2KM X 1KM area where about half of GPS units consistently read about 1KM EAST of reality. The other half of units I tested were spot on - consistently. This area was near my home so I got a lot of neighbors to try it. 50-50. This persisted years. Why?
  • Like those that do keep the Chinese government up at night already have street locations, map locations, base locations, population patterns, and traffic flow patterns? It's laughable how the Chinese want the planet to believe how late to the dance they are.

    Maybe it's even simpler, How much does Google want to pay?

  • Shades of Stalin (Score:5, Informative)

    by mykepredko ( 40154 ) on Monday December 18, 2017 @11:46AM (#55761863) Homepage

    Reading this reminded me of Stalin ordered that the Soviet Union never published accurate maps of the country for fear of spying/invasion/bombing. This went on until the USSR's break up.

    Not surprisingly, Stalin ordered the creation of very detailed maps of the rest of the world to aid in spying/invasion/bombing: https://www.wired.com/2015/07/... [wired.com]

    • not really. China did the same back in the 50s forward. Their maps did not line up either.
      And you can bet that China is about to block Tesla from getting information from their vehicles. After all, they ARE mapping out the roads.

    • Re: (Score:2)

      by Kjella ( 173770 )

      Reading this reminded me of Stalin ordered that the Soviet Union never published accurate maps of the country for fear of spying/invasion/bombing. This went on until the USSR's break up.

      Not surprisingly, Stalin ordered the creation of very detailed maps of the rest of the world to aid in spying/invasion/bombing:

      Well there was a time where this mattered you had to send spy planes and shit. These days anything as large as a road is trivially mapped out by satellite images, hell you even got commercial satellites like WorldView-3 [wikipedia.org] with a 0.31m (12 inch) resolution. It's a fair assumption that the US military got even better stuff. Granted, you might claim the horizontal view from a car will tell you more I doubt it's really for that kind of security. For one, it's a way to make domestic companies take the Chinese mark

  • This is a typical China play. In addition they have full control of the data which they won't if they let foreign companies do it.
  • Maybe more of a national security issue in China's eyes.

  • smart on CHina's part (Score:3)

    by WindBourne ( 631190 ) on Monday December 18, 2017 @11:59AM (#55761983) Journal
    China is very much in a cold war with the west (and is winning). The ability to map the streets and then have a self-driving car with multiple cameras,move around, means that these vehicles can be used for weapons,but also for spying on what is happening.
    As such, I fully expect china to block ANY self-driving western company car from China. Likewise, the west would be very wise to follow their steps on this.After all, China is just as likely to use their manufactured buses and vehicles as weapons and spy devices as well.

    • >The ability to map the streets and then have a self-driving car with multiple cameras, move around, means that these vehicles can be used for weapons,

      Well, it certainly means you don't have to recruit as many drivers for bombing missions. Still, that's more of a domestic terror threat than a foreign invasion threat - and I'd expect terrorists to co-opt local self-driving vehicles so they don't have to buy them themselves.

      As for mapping, I'm pretty sure any nation that can put a satellite in orbit can g

      • China and Russia are spending a TON of money on space-based weapons. They are not allowed to, but, they do not care about treaties. While W broke one, at least he said that he was breaking it.
        China is working hard on being able to take our America's sats, and China is counting on America taking out China's. That is why China is working on developing nuke powered drones that can fly around 100K' in the air and just quietly relay pix, comms and then finally lasering away.

  • Camera's can't see the roads anyway due to smog (Score:5, Funny)

    by JoeyRox ( 2711699 ) on Monday December 18, 2017 @12:00PM (#55761997)
    Take a left at the smog-obscured road, then continue for 3 miles, veering right of the smog-obscured fork.

    • Re: (Score:2)

      by plopez ( 54068 )

      That's why cars need radar. We'll soon be back to that libertarian paradise of the 50's where the smog is too thick to see and thousands die due to pollution.

      • >We'll soon be back to that libertarian paradise of the 50's where the smog is too thick to see and thousands die due to pollution.

        Interesting thought (at least to me) - could there be a market for a night club where there's a (non-hazardous) artificial fog specifically to limit visibility so cameras are ineffective beyond a few feet?

      • Exactly. I mean, why should clean air be free? If clean air is such a valuable thing, people should have to pay for it.

  • China...

    Geographic surveys can't be performed without permission from the government, and many digital cameras don't record GPS coordinates for geotagging, as they do in other countries, according to Fortune.

    This sounds like a critical privacy feature, which is lacking in non-Chinese cameras.

    • I normally keep the GPS tagging turned off in my camera but the next trip to China it's going to stay on the whole time. That'll show 'em.

  • Tariffs (Score:1)

    by Anonymous Coward

    In a previous generation, this would be handled with tariffs. No wonder we can't negotiate a trade deal for shit. The Chinese know we don't have the backbone to actually impose tariffs and restrictions on their trade. We are toothless and the Chinese are eating our lunch. This country needs to have its balls reattached.

  • It would be interesting to know what the Chinese are attempting to hide from the satellite mapping of their roads that has already been done by the US Military, The Russian military and any other military that has a spy satellite in orbit. Their roads and streets are already mapped by everyone and their brother.

  • People worry about the things that they would think of doing to others being done to them.

    So, if they are afraid of others having detailed plans of any streets, not just specific areas, it stands to reason that they make use of detailed plans of the streets of their neighbors in their own offensive plans.

    People marching don't need detailed plans. What kind of attack would benefit from detailed plans of everything as opposed to just detailed plans of specific targets? Maybe they plan some fully automated, ma

  • If China won't allow foreign competition in China, we simply don't allow Chinese Competition in $country until they do.

    If I were to wager a guess, it's less about National Security than it is the inability to manipulate a foreign business like they do their own.

  • All you need a few thousand people driving around with a phone GPS phone mapping app and you'll have all the detailed maps you need.
  • And that's why self-driving cars should really be selfdriving and not having to rely on any extra maps.

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