China Beats US In Early Cuban Internet Infrastructure Investment 109
lpress writes: The US would like to sell Cuba Internet service and equipment, but we have had little success so far. China has won the first round — they financed and installed Cuba's undersea cable, supplied backbone equipment and public WiFi access centers and will provide equipment for the forthcoming home DSL rollout. That being said, Cuba has very little connectivity today and most of what they have and plan to install is already obsolete by today's standards, so they will be buying a lot of equipment in the future.
O Rly? (Score:5, Insightful)
So you hold an embargo against a nation for decades and now they don't fall over themselves to buy from you?
What an ungrateful bunch!
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Indeed, besides, with what money? It's not as if you can buy a lot of equipment with a $12 per month average salary.
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The 'own' the power of life and death [nytimes.com] over the entire population. Doesn't get much more powerful than that.
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Read Animal Farm [wikipedia.org]. Some people/animals are more equal than others.
Re: O Rly? (Score:1)
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The US embargo only impacted trade to and from the US. It wasn't a blockade. Cuba did indeed to a lot of trading with Russia, Venezuela, and a lot of other countries. The reason they're poor is because Dear Leader decided that capitalism was bad and that working for anybody besides the government was immoral, and furthermore, talking to the outside world (or even so much as receiving US television signals) was also immoral.
In fact the whole reason that Cuba had no internet access was because the government
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I think that more likely it would end up being used DSLAMS from US regions that were upgraded to fiber.
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It works the other way too. You complain about an embargo by a nation for decades, and when they lift it you don't buy from them.
Anyhow, the equipment isn't the problem. The slow rollout is because the Cuban government wants to tightly control who gets Internet access and what they'll have access to. In that respect, it's perfectly natural that they'll want to buy from the Chinese who are the w
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So why, exactly, should Cuba buy from the U.S?
Re: O Rly? (Score:1)
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Umm...there are actually quite a few countries closer to Cuba than the United States (at the tip of florida): Haiti, Jamaica, Bahamas, Dominican Republic, Grand Cayman, and Mexico.
Re:O Rly? (Score:5, Insightful)
> They (the "supporting" communist countries) abandoned that shithole and let it rot for many years.
For decades, the Soviet Union in particular kept their economy afloat. They were an absolutely critical Atlantic Ocean seaport for the Soviet navy, a treasured vacation for Communist Party leadership, and and a critical source of sugar and tobacco luxury goods in an increasingly desperate Soviet economy. They were also an invaluable electronic listening post, an embarrassing counter-example to American and western democracy's political claims against communism, and a critical exporter of communist ideology to all of Latin America.
Then they Soviet Empire went bankrupt, and the economy tanked. But they've still managed to avoid the boom-bust and destructive mismanagement of Haiti, and the third class US protectorate status of Puerto Rico, and they've managed to survive the devastation to their most critical trade good, tobacco, as worldwide smoking habits shifted. They still have one of the highest literacy rates in the world and lowest lower infant mortality rates, both notably better than the USA or Canada. They're making do with an economy that is stretched very, very thin, but give credit where it's due. They've avoided the murderous puppet governments of other desperate Caribbean islands such as Haiti and Jamaica.
Re: O Rly? (Score:2)
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an embarrassing counter-example to American and western democracy's political claims against communism
I really can't argue anything else in your post, but I can't help but wonder how Cuba was supposed to be an embarrassment vis a vis political systems. Sure, it's easy to make the point that "America can't dislodge this thorn in their side that sits less than 200km from their own shore" but I'm hard pressed to come up with any positive connotations to "our dictatorship is better than your democracy."
Re:O Rly? (Score:5, Insightful)
> I really can't argue anything else in your post, but I can't help but wonder how Cuba was supposed to be an embarrassment vis a vis political systems.
There's a lot of sources of embarrassment, from the ineffectiveness of the US embargo in collapsing their economy, to the demonstrably stable Communist regime, in the USA's back yard, one that countered the claims that the only way for Latin American nations to survive was as as US puppets, to Castro's ongoing political friendships with other Latin American countries. The living counterexample to claims of Communist enforced starvation and economic despair.
Do understand that they're quite poor, but for most of them it's still much better than it was under Batista when stunning corruption, death gangs, and US organized crime controlled the island. The revolution there was inevitable: it's amazing that it worked so well, and that they have any economy left after 50 years of murderous anger from the nearest superpower.
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It's not demonstrably stable. It survived solely because of Soviet financial aid. Since the fall of the Soviet Union, it's survived because of financial aid from Venezuela which makes up 7%-10% of it's GDP [politifact.com].
Venezuela gets that money from oil sales, mostly to the U.S. since U.S. refiners are some of the few who can process V
Re:O Rly? (Score:5, Interesting)
an embarrassing counter-example to American and western democracy's political claims against communism
I really can't argue anything else in your post, but I can't help but wonder how Cuba was supposed to be an embarrassment vis a vis political systems. Sure, it's easy to make the point that "America can't dislodge this thorn in their side that sits less than 200km from their own shore" but I'm hard pressed to come up with any positive connotations to "our dictatorship is better than your democracy."
There are many positive impacts of being in a society that is not focused on capitalism. I have not been to Cuba, but in a general sense:
1. Most communist countries have more public recreation space. Parks, squares, plazas, etc. are often more numerous and larger because the allocation of land is usually not based on "profit".
2. In communist countries, citizens only have 1 entity to worry about spying on them, collecting personal information, and controlling their life. Cubans worry about the government. Americans worry about the government, Google, Apple, Amazon, Microsoft, etc etc.
3. Culture and the arts often have a higher importance and more public funding. In most capitalist countries, art and culture has to pay for itself, or have the potential to pay for itself, or it doesn't get made. Many communist countries dedicate funding to this. Is it often self-serving? Sure. But art and culture have important roles in society and is often overlooked in capitalist countries.
4. Stronger, smarter, and more comprehensive city planning (not sure if Cuba does this well or not). In capitalist countries, city planning seems to be a lot more organic and chaotic compared to communist ones. Companies and people build where they want to build, and are motivated by cost. This can have serious problems with regards to "tragedy of the commons" where everyone is looking out only for themselves and the entire population suffers as a result. Many communist countries do a better job managing this and make choices that are better for society as a whole. Cities are often more dense, inefficient suburbs are frowned upon, things are built where they are needed and not where it is cheapest to do so, etc. See also point #1.
There are probably a lot more but this is just a few I could think of.
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You're pretty far off as far as Cuba is concerned. Last time I was in Cuba was 17 years ago (through Canada). I don't think a lot has changed....
- Maybe lots of public spaces, hard to know. Not much commerce going on so lots of empty spaces in cities with people hanging around. If that's your idea of Parks and Recreation, fine. Seemed pretty dull and depressing unless you were looking for an underaged prostitute.
- Yeah, you only have one oppressor, Fidel & Company. But you don't have any functi
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an embarrassing counter-example to American and western democracy's political claims against communism
Sure, if thousands of executions by firing squad with little to no due process, mass imprisonment and thousands more being "vanished" would embarrass you. They certainly don't embarrass Marxists. As good old Ché, Castro’s chief enforcer put it, "To send men to the firing squad, judicial proof is unnecessary. These procedures are an archaic bourgeois detail. This is a revolution. And a revolutionary must become a cold killing machine motivated by pure hate." All of course while El Jefe himself was
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They were also an invaluable electronic listening post, an embarrassing counter-example to American and western democracy's political claims against communism
You're kidding, right? The only embarrassment here is that somebody would suggest that Cubans have a good life. As has been noted elsewhere, you can read up on slaves' rations in the writings of Frederick Douglass (as I have) and you'll find that slaves in the antebellum American South ate better than modern day Cubans.
Well, except for the Castros. I'm sure they're eating well.
, and a critical exporter of communist ideology to all of Latin America.
Then they Soviet Empire went bankrupt, and the economy tanked.
In other words, the "economy" was simply a sham that was exposed when the Soviet Union quit pumping money into the island. The S
Re:Fuck China (Score:5, Funny)
Communism or Capitalism (Score:5, Insightful)
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Given historical ties with Russia (or rather the USSR) and the high probability that Cuba would look the other way regarding the numerous sanctions in place against Russia due to the involvement in the Crimea and Eastern Ukraine it seems like Russia has lost out on some major opportunities here, not least the ability to get a bit of a PR coup and rattle the cages of some of the more hawkish US political/military crowd.
Putin's Russia has nothing to offer Cuba in terms of infrastructure. Russia main technology export is weapons, which won't be of much use to Cuba in any serious confrontation with the US.
China learned the foreign aid lesson from the US (Score:5, Interesting)
In the Cold War era (and still applies now), the US gave a lot of "Foreign Aid" money to many countries around the world. "Foreign Aid" in quotes because, often, the money just went the pocket of corrupt government officials, and the people in the country got what's left, if any. The result is a lot of money spent, a lot of corrupt officials made rich but very little goodwill generated among the common people.
China obviously did their homework. Instead of just giving out money, they are building visible infrastructure projects around the less-developed countries in world, either as foreign aid if the host country accepts, or by "bidding" for infrastructure projects. "Bidding" in quotes because when you don't even try to make a profit and bundle in free financing package to boot, others can't really compete with you at all. Then the common people will see Chinese companies and workers building infrastructure for their benefit, generating goodwill.
I wouldn't be surprised to learn the details of this successful "bid" may include 100% financing by China, probably at low interest, so Cuba don't have to pay a dime upfront. The money used for this would be a much better investment for China than buying US Bonds.
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Then the common people will see Chinese companies and workers building infrastructure for their benefit, generating goodwill.
The Chinese role in Cuba has been different than in Africa, where Chinese companies and Chinese workers build roads, etc. The Chinese were involved in financing and installing Cuba's udersea cable, but on the island China has been an equipment vendor with Cubans installing and running the networks.
I wouldn't be surprised to learn the details of this successful "bid" may include 100% financing by China, probably at low interest, so Cuba don't have to pay a dime upfront.
China has at times had problems collecting Cuban debt. (See the Wikileak quote in the post; however, it has been reported that they lent the money for the undersea cable then participated in its installation. That
Let's not forget (Score:2)
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"Keep"? What the hell are you talking about?
By maintaining the embargo and having no diplomatic ties, Cuba hasn't been "under its sphere of influence" in decades.
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Yes, well, I think first America is going to have to come to terms with what the meaning of their "influence" was besides as effectively an occupying colonial power. It's now 50 years later, and if they think they're going back to controlling a benign dictator who was happy to fuck over the Cubans in exchange for Americans being able to profit ... well, I don't see that happening.
Though, as usual, America is already planning on how to carve up the land and the profits.
Which tells me what Americans think wi
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+++ But this is pretty much always true of small nations. Unless you have money (Switzerland) or guns (Switzerland) or are just lucky for a while (Iceland, the Nordic states after WW II) or can group together to pretend to be a big country (European Union) you will always dance to somebody else' tune.
knock down the fanatics. (Score:2, Interesting)
Don't read too much into anything. Your ability to understand the macroscopic relationships at play in the global community will only lead you to new world order conspiracies or other false beliefs. You do not know the motivations or facts in relation to this situation unless you personally possess documents or have held discussions.
What I personally do know is that my life is going well, but investments are all down despite a relatively diversified portfolio, in times where the position of western nations
Let the land grabing begin... (Score:1)
Let the land grabing begin.
Anyone, who think that US or China helps someone "just because" is either a complete moron or is part of the scam.
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...Yep. We.
What will be funny... (Score:5, Insightful)
Is when the average Cuban has better bandwidth than the average US Citizen because they actually decided to build infrastructure
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Yeah! We're number 16! We're number 16! [oecd.org]
American exceptionalism for the "win"...
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Well, at least it's not a prime number.
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Re:What will be funny... (Score:5, Insightful)
If size is the problem, then why aren't US cities the best in the world for internet access? They have lots of money, many subscribers, and manageable amounts of space.
Stop making excuses for the chain cluster-fuck that is US internet infrastructure. The more you keep hand-waiving it away the longer it will exist.
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Is when the average Cuban has better bandwidth than the average US Citizen because they actually decided to build infrastructure
That will take a while -- Cuba is one of the least connected countries in the world [blogspot.com] and they are making a big deal of making slow DSL "available" to half their homes by 2020.
That being said, there are good reasons for them to remain independent -- I wouldn't wish Comcast or TWC on anyone.
Makes sense considering (Score:2)
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For example can you name a specific site that is not accessible from Cuba?
Yeah, all of them you autistic hillbilly. The infrastructure isn't place yet, hence the need for people to bid on it. But since you clearly need things written out in crayon here it is: "That means that Cuba doesn't have internet access. There is nothing for them to censor. They would not have the equipment to filter traffic because there would be nothing to plug it into."
When people here talk about the decline of Slashdot, please remember that they are referring specifically to you and your psuedo-intellec
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You're probably one of those people with a very high I.Q. aren't you?
Is the answer No?
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https://freedomhouse.org/repor... [freedomhouse.org]
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/... [wikipedia.org]
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/... [huffingtonpost.com]
https://www.washingtonpost.com... [washingtonpost.com]
etc.
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They financed Cuba's cable? Doesn't sound like much of a win to me. Who better to set up the authoritarian Cuban network than the Chicoms?
We have a winner. My assumption was that China will get the deal by default since they know how to set up a censorious and more easily spied upon network.
We thought they'd buy U.S. equipment because? (Score:2)
Now it would be expected that the Chinese equipment is probably back doored as well, howe
A documentary (Score:1)
I recently watched a documentary, made several years ago, on the Cuban lifestyle. Besides the 1950s automobiles, three other things stood out. The absence of advertising (the word translates as 'commercial propaganda' in Cuba). The small living quarters and spartan, chunky furniture. Against this was a recent model fridge and laptop.
Remember, no US trade meant no American music and no US-style copyright enforcement. That will be the first thing to change. They pirated American movies though, I've hear
Angst incoming (Score:1)
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Who was it again that turned Cuba into a testosterone test of who can be meaner and thus a bigger "man?"
Let's see, well it was JFK (Democrat) who first instituted the embargo of Cuba..Oh look than that "conservative" Bill Clinton expanded the economic embargo. What was Obama's party again?
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Actually, check again, the first of the embargo's against Cuba were instituted under Eisenhower so you are literally incorrect there, and the Helms–Burton Act was named after Jesse Helms and Dan Burton for a reason. It did pass with enough of a margin that Clinton's veto might have been overridden, and I doubt he saw it as important enough to push the issue. It certainly wasn't a policy drive of his, and he did make use of the waiver provisions.
And a few years later, the Trade Sanctions Reform and E
Re: Cuba is for sheeps. (Score:1)
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I spend a lot of time on 4chan, and trust me this is a far lower standard of copy-pasta than what you see there. I think it's a poor imitation of the GNAA tactics in the heyday of Slashdot. They'd write "press releases" and make them tangentially related to the story they were commenting on or current events in world news. Sometimes they'd repurpose a troll by changing it slightly to fit in with a different story. It's just a far lamer version of that. Trolling has devolved along with everything else h