Gates, Zuckerberg Promising Same Jobs To US Kids and Foreign H-1B Workers? 249
theodp writes: Over at the Bill Gates and Mark Zuckerberg-bankrolled Code.org, they're using the number of open computing jobs in each state to convince parents of the need to expand K-12 CS offerings so their kids can fill those jobs. Sounds good, right? But at the same time, the Gates and Zuckerberg-bankrolled FWD.org PAC has taken to Twitter, using the number of open "STEM" jobs in each state to convince politicians of the need to expand the number of H-1B visas so foreign workers can fill those jobs. While the goal of Microsoft's 'two-pronged' National Talent Strategy is to kill two birds [K-12 CS education and H-1B visas] with one crisis, is it fair for organizations backed by many of the same wealthy individuals to essentially promise the same jobs to U.S. kids and foreign H-1B workers?
heh (Score:3, Insightful)
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That's kind of true, but not in the sense you think. Increased supply means lower prices, but it also means increased sales volume, for good as much as for labor.
If you limit the supply of STEM workers in the US, the average US salary will indeed go up, but for the simple reason that only high-value positions get filled in the US; the rest will simply not get filled or outsourced overseas.
At an individual level, if my business needs a programmer and he'
Re:heh (Score:4, Interesting)
Completely true.
Let's give an anecdotal example to support this:
Me.
I am a glazier and ironworker by trade. Building large / institutional and commercial buildings is my experience and early background.
I live in Edmonton, Alberta.
In the 80's while running a commercial glass company, my hobby was mini and early personal computers.
In the early 90's there was more demand for my skills in computing than in construction, so I opened a business supplying and manufacturing mass storage devices.
In the mid 2000's I was faced with 2 crises:
First off the fluctuating exchange rates cost us a lot of money.
Secondly, the "Chinafication" of the industry killed off all the North American hardware companies.
Including mine. I am sure that low labour costs had nothing to do with that..
Fortunately for me, my original trades now pay over $60 per hour, due to guess what?
Shortage of skilled labour.
Re:heh (Score:4, Informative)
As an actual economist, I can safely say that your explanation of labor markets is 100% bollocks.
Re: heh (Score:2, Funny)
Your answer shows that you are "an actual economist" indeed!
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See, I can understand nothing is black or white but the suggestion that a higher income for many people benefits the local economy is not strange at all, living examples are the Scandinavian countries.
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No, it's only 50% bollocks. Labor markets do work like other markets.
The important thing is: Employers often expand their business based on workers available, so supply creates its own demand.
That is, increasing supply lowers prices but it also increases volume, also for labor.
So, if we only had 100 programmers in the US, they'd be paid better than pop stars. However, we wouldn't have much of a software industry, because most companies couldn't afford to hire a programmer at those salaries; they'd simply no
Re:heh (Score:5, Insightful)
> That is, increasing supply lowers prices but it also increases volume, also for labor.
Except when it doesn't. "Supply increases volume" only when then suppliers _believe_ that there is a profit available, and excess supply often saturates the market. Otherwise, all the empty storefronts I see on one block on my way to work would be filled with active hair salons, unlike the three competing salons on that block that are all going out of business.
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There is no such thing as "excess supply of labor": if labor is cheap enough, there are always more jobs to be done. If people could hire programmers for the same price as tax-evading dog sitters, half of American homes would hire them to do custom development for their home automation.
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> There is no such thing as "excess supply of labor": if labor is cheap enough
I'm sorry to contradict you, but _where_ are you getting this nonsense? "Labor costs" that drop below a sustenance level kill workers, and even prevent the workers from participating in the local economy. Between those two limitations, and all the others, one can certainly have an "excess supply of labor". It's especially apparent in seasonal farm labor when drought or blight ruins the crops, and it was certainly a problem for
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We're talking about a specific job category here, programmers. Can there be an excess supply of programmers? No. At some point, it simply doesn't pay to be a programmer, and people go back to being Baristas instead. Nobody starves, nobody gets killed.
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They do not. The technical term is "imperfect competition".
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/... [wikipedia.org]
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You're missing the context here: labor markets work like other markets in that increasing the supply not only lowers prices but also increases demand.
(As to your point, all markets have some degree of imperfect competition; so, yes, labor markets are no different from other markets even in that regard.)
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No no no. You missed the point. "Imperfect competition" is a term of art. It specifically refers to oligopolies and monopolies and monopsonies.
It doesn't mean that the competition is imperfect "to some degree". It means that it cannot be anything like a free market if any of these states exist. As usual, it's the "science" of Economics mislabeling things to suit an agenda. A better description would be "broken competition"
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Look, if you get your economic education from Wikipedia, at least read correctly:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/I... [wikipedia.org]
Not "it must be one of these three".
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And then supply would collapse because nobody in their right mind would invest more in learning to program than they would ever earn actually doing it.
Or, they would have their welfare cut off until they got a real job.
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Obviously, if programmers were as cheap as farm laborers, their education would have to be as cheap as farm laborers as well.
My point is that artificially restricting the supply of programmers doesn't benefit anybody: even if average programmer salaries went down by importing a flood of programmers from overseas, that average mostly goes down because low-end programmers are added, not because people's salaries are cut. Furthermore, society as a whole benefits from any increase in the availability of program
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We've seen right here on /. about various IT people being displaced by H1-Bs, mot supplemented with.
If there was an actual shortage, we'd see ageism go away kinda like in the run-up to y2k where there was an actual shortage of skilled COBOL programmers and they were enticing people back out of management.
We would also see the requires X years experience in X-3 year old technology requirements go away. We wouldn't see lawyers offering employers advice on how to taylor job postings to make sure they get an H1
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Yes, what's your point? If they hadn't been replaced with H1-Bs, their jobs might simply have moved overseas altogether. Or they might have had their salaries cut (i.e., not raised).
Given the minefield of legal requirements legislators have created, yes, you need lawyers to hire, in particular to hire
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If we had an actual shortage as you claim, they couldn't have afforded to let those rare and needed U.S. workers go. If there was an actual shortage, they wouldn't have to post the job openings strategically to make sure they don't accidentally get a qualified U.S. applicant.
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You continue to reason in nonsensical terms like "actual shortage", as if it were a binary thing.
If it helps, try to think of it as a "shortage of cheap IT workers". You erroneously assume that if companies can't hire cheap IT workers, they will substitute expensive IT workers. A few may, but many will simply find other solutions.
Furthermore, your entire premise is somehow that it is the job of the US government to protect the salaries of US IT workers; of course it is not. When IT workers want protectionis
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Well, gee, it seems there is a severe shortage of electricity, food, housing, pretty much everything. By God it's like Soviet Russia around here. Not one cheap food item on the shelves!
Shortage isn't binary, but it does show signs and symptoms. Those include rising prices (in this case salaries) broadening standards (that would mean more willingness to accept telecommute, more willingness to hire older workers, etc), more concessions to work/life balance, and other measures. In other words, there is an exis
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Yes, wages do go up when you restrict the supply of software developers, I never disputed that. What I'm pointing out is that it also means fewer software developers and fewer software companies.
What you have failed to explain is why that is good for anybody. Even
Re: heh (Score:2)
Really? ?
Supply & demand is most relevant in labor markets than anywhere else! Need something done with a skill no one has? The free market heavily rewards the job seeker for the investment.
Job not so essential that anyone can do like pour someone coffee? Don't expect much.
It professionals are mighty spoiled compared to other fields. My ex was a teacher and was treated like shit and needed more education and paid half of what most reading this are. That is the free market at work
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The same happens in jobs. People will move (th
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Uhh, have you been paying attention to oil prices [nasdaq.com] and the reasons for the decline? [fool.com]
Commodities are not magically insulated from the law of supply and demand.
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Did you miss the countless headlines about OPEC increasing production for the stated purpose of lowering prices?! Quite successfully I might add. Conservation is a red herring, incidentally, whatever improvements we make with technology are more than offset by third world development (*cough* China *cough*)
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Speak for yourself. I certainly drive less when gas prices are high.
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No. See, "monopsony".
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/... [wikipedia.org]
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Oh brother! economist = phrenologist
Sir, I resent your denigration of Phrenology!
For the Needs and Pleasure of the Wealthy (Score:5, Interesting)
Reading comprehension FTW: (Score:2)
or don't act surprised when we accommodate our needs from the foreign hordes.
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But everyone and their dog is already rushing for BA degrees. How many more miscreants do you need?
Gates and Zuckerbergs Vision for America (Score:5, Interesting)
"Nobody's going to hold you up and carry you around...If you're not going to work hard enough to be qualified to get the job...well then, you don't deserve the job."
And part of WORKING HARD ENOUGH is WORKING CHEAP ENOUGH.
Remember kids -- you got give us MORE FOR LESS if you want to make it in today's Globalized Economy. Just being a US Citizen doesn't mean you deserve to work in the US. Why should we "Carry You Around" if we can import workers willing to work for the equivalent wage they'd get in Bangalore while working in San Jose and will even offer to CARRY US AROUND the corporate campus in Rickshaws and Litters in their off hours?
This is why we need to revamp the educational system in America -- to train young thralls how to compete in the workplace of the future
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It's strange that businesses oppose raising wages. It's like the prisoner's dilemma and everyone wants to screw everyone else over.
Look, you'll pad profits for a short while (maybe), but in the long run it's detrimental to the entire economy since the bulk of the population ends up with less spending power. If corporations were forced to pay their workers fair rates everyone would benefit.
Re:Gates and Zuckerbergs Vision for America (Score:4, Insightful)
By that time he's had his stay, pumped the stock value and received his golden parachute. Why should he give a fuck about anything you mentioned?
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I'm an investor. I prefer thinking for the long term.
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This is why we need to revamp the educational system in America -- to train young thralls how to compete in the workplace of the future
Eat lots of Ramen, live in a 300 square foot apartment with 15 other people - not you're getting it!
Re:Gates and Zuckerbergs Vision for America (Score:5, Funny)
I think it's time we teach our kids valuable skills they'll need in the future. How to hold and use a rifle. How to tie a hangman's knot. How to spot a manager trying to blend into the crowd...
Re:Gates and Zuckerbergs Vision for America (Score:4, Interesting)
Here is the thing. Apple, Facebook, MS, are all employers just like any other employer. They want to acquire employees at the least cost. They want to pay the least they can. they don't want people to leave. If this can happen with local employees, that is great. They are cheaper to acquire. But local employees know how much it costs in the US and can leave at any time. That means they cost most in the long term. It would be one thing if local employees could be contract, but the courts have said they can't if they don't have control over the schedule. It would be one thing if local employees could be tied to a job, but courts has awarded money for anti-poaching schemes.
So what is an employer to do. H1B is a good solution. Workers don't know how much the cost of living is, and is likely to be willing to live a much lower standard of living for a certain amount of work. Workers are much harder to poach. Workers are much less likely to complain about an employer violating the laws of the US.
So no, it is not wrong for these companies to want H1B employees. There are not enough US kids who are willing to do a days work that also have mad technical skills. And no, it is not wrong to encourage US kids to go to school and learn the latest technical skills. Even if they do not use them directly, and really many college graduates don't work in their field of study, these skills are useful not matter what. It is also wrong to live in a country where we think that workers do not have a right and need to organize in cartels just like employers do.
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"It would be one thing if local employees could be tied to a job, but courts has awarded money for anti-poaching schemes. "
It could be easily done through the use of employment contracts that has to be renewed every X time periods based on performance. You salary is set during the terms of the contract, and you receive a bonus for finishing the term. If you leave you lose the bonus and unpaid benefits. This is similar to how academia operates.
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So no, it is not wrong for these companies to want H1B employees.
Yeah it is because it's unethical. I want cheaper workers, but I'm not going to sell my ever living soul to get them.
There are no ethics (Score:2)
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Then the bubble burst and people lost jobs and workers had to pay huge taxes on stock incentives that were now worthless
The worker's failure to cash out of a bad investment doesn't mean it wasn't real income paid at the time it was earned.
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And yes, on the corollary, I should be able to go to China and India and compete with the local kids for their jobs. Unfortunately their draconian regulations make it extremely tough to do so, even if the language barrier is not an issue.
Re:Gates and Zuckerbergs Vision for America (Score:4, Interesting)
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The trick is to indeed pound out the same old thing, but market it as something new and different, such as "cloud" or "node" or "parallel" or "3D coding" or "Shiny Bullshit on Rails", etc.
In my many years in the industry, I'm still amazed at the power of bullshit. I suppose we could view such as job security as each fad creates a rewrite of the same things projected into the
Regarding the actual question (Score:2)
Comes to timing. The K-12 CS students are not going to fill the vacancies advertised today, but they might fill the ones advertised in 4-15 years time, reducing the need for H-1Bs at that time
I always wondered about that (Score:3)
Seems like getting more people trained in the art of making buggy whips and sealing wax.
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So we no longer have to pay engineers like they produce anything meaningful. Just because it takes brains to do that job doesn't mean they have to earn more than burger flippers, ya know?
Re:I always wondered about that (Score:4, Insightful)
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I wouldn't worry. The truth is that you can't train someone to have an aptitude for something. There's a strong undercurrent of positivism in modern educational dogma: "You can be anything you want!" The sad truth is: no you can't. Everyone has certain aptitudes and certain potential.
Isn't it odd? Seems like a person having a talent for something is somehow bad today. But today we seem to believe that anyone can be Einstein if only we apply ourselves.
That kind of thinking might even be part of the problems that some young people have with depression these days. When they try and fail the you can be anything you want mentality has only one person to blame - you. Well sorta, but I don't want to get in that issue again.
The current initiatives like code.org will turn out people who can
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Isn't it odd? Seems like a person having a talent for something is somehow bad today. But today we seem to believe that anyone can be Einstein if only we apply ourselves.
Modern left-wing dogma is based on 'we're all the same under the skin!' and there's no inherent differences between people and some just succeed through luck so we must take all their stuff and give it to the unlucky ones.
Admit that some people just aren't as good as others at some things, and the whole scam collapses.
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What evidence do you have that certain people just can't do certain things because of lack of natural ability? Obviously some people have developmental issues, but in the far East where the attitude is that if you work hard you can learn anything it seems to be true.
With enough effort and support a person of average intelligence can learn to do most things, most jobs. Software engineering isn't some high science that requires exceptional minds, it's a process that can be learned and which is as much experie
To hell with fairness (Score:2)
Cheap labor is what we need!
Get rid of him (Score:2)
It's as simple as not using Facebook, I know, I know... you're "trapped" on it now because you were stupid enough to use it in the first place.
Zuck: They "trust me"
Zuck: Dumb fucks
-Mark Zuckerberg
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Had to do literally 10 captchas (not because I failed, but because they make you jump through 10 of them) and click through pages and pages of warnings for them to tell me they'll delete my account in a week or two... that's AFTER finding the deletion link, which I didn't even get through their site, but had to Google for. Delete now before they just take away the
As long as the jobs actually go to the kids (Score:2)
As long as the jobs actually go to the kids in the end, I see no issue with the companies covering their bases.
After all, there is no guarantee whatsoever that the training programs are actually going to entice a significant number of kids to enter STEM careers. There have always been science classes and science clubs, yet the percentage of people pursuing STEM careers has always been relatively low.
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There's also absolutely no guarantee that anybody will be hiring those skills. Why should the rich bastards be the only ones who demand guarantees?
Were I advising someone in school, I'd look at the current economics of STEM professions, and the BS surrounding them, and advise the students to study foreign languages. Or *something* besides STEM. Otherwise in 20 years you'll have a huge debt and no way to ever pay it off.
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The only "guarantee" is that people will always need plumbers, electricians, and other tradespeople.
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The only "guarantee" is that people will always need plumbers, electricians, and other tradespeople.
Yes, but, in ten or twenty years, Indian and Chinese plumbers will be doing that work over the Internet with plumbing drones.
Selfishness 101 (Score:2)
As a CEO, you want cheaper labor and more labor choice. The "side" impact to society of getting that is of no concern to the CEO if it doesn't affect the bottom line. And there is almost no penalty in spinning the truth to get it.
Blame HR demands (Score:3)
When they boss around IT managers with need +10 years experience in html5 Android development the only hits are Indian recruiters saying my guys have +10 years of Android & html5 experience in Bangalore then what are you going to do?
Then HR screams raise the caps!! No qualified workers exist and pass it off to the mbas
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Indian recruiters saying my guys have +10 years of Android & html5 experience
They aren't lying. There are 120 guys there, and they average 3 months experience each. Tadaaa, they have 10 years experience. /s
Until slavery returns, students will do. (Score:2)
Sure, it's a little costlier than a full blown slave at a Chinese Apple phone factory, but be assured, it's only a temporary setback until we can get indentured servitude for student loan defaults back on the books.
Age Discrimmination Problem (Score:2)
I trained to be a IT professional.
All ways good in my working career until I hit 40 after that it was much harder to get a job.
If your training is only good for 20 years of work, the pay has to go way up.
Employers want cheap slave labor, not workers with wisdom, families, and an outside life.
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They're having existing workers train H1-Bs (Score:2)
That puts the lie to the skills argument.
Don't be a protectionist (Score:2)
We should be able to hire anyone we wish to fill jobs we have to offer from anywhere on earth they may currently live IFF they can fulfill the job requirements are are willing to abide by our laws. That is the only stance consistent with freedom and rationality. A potential hire is not better or more deserving of a job just by virtue of being an American. I have worked in software in Silicon Valley for 35 years and there are deep problem finding qualified software engineers. Companies I have been at ha
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Time for IT workers to actually *do* something? (Score:2)
We all know the situation is bullshit. So we bitch, and send each other links to articles. As if that will fix the problem.
Situation-1:
Manager: you're fired. Train your H1B replacement before you go, or you get no severance.
IT Worker: guess I have no choice.
Situation-2:
Manager: you're fired. Train your H1B replacement before you go, or you get no severance.
Entire IT staff: you try to pull that bullshit, and we all walk out right this minute!
Manager: okay, you win.
I know you spent years learning your skills... (Score:2)
Hmm, Faced with this scenario, what smart American would want to be a Computer grad. Basically only the hardcore gu
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"The issue is lack of skilled workers"...
You forgot to follow that with ..."that are willing to work for the peanuts I want to pay them."
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"The issue is lack of skilled workers"...
You forgot to follow that with ..."that are willing to work for the peanuts I want to pay them."
I'm not sure it's that simple. Sure, one business could pay double the market rate and steal employees from the shop down the street
but that only gets you so far and IT is already paid at about double the rate of most industries so the people who can do it already are
doing IT and it doesn't matter if every employer doubled the amount that they are willing to pay tomorrow if there are no more employees
left. I think that's the reason that facebook, etc... have all the other perks. They are trying as hard a
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The issue is lack of skilled workers - either training workers in the same country or hiring workers having such education from another country will solve the issue. As an employer, I hire either and don't care which, and would suspect most businesses including MS and Facebook are happy to find skilled workers either way.
If you'd renounce your citizenship and move to one of those other countries you'd get cheap labor.
Please?
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Gates and Zuckerberg do not care where their workers come from but how much they cost as they run businesses and not charities. In fact it is in their best interest to 1. train domestic talent 2. import foreign workers 3. domestic salaries are now depressed 4. profit.
Neither Gates nor Zuckerberg got rich and where they are by working for someone. Certainly not working for someone in slaverITy.
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Gates and Zuckerberg do not care where their workers come from but how much they cost as they run businesses and not charities. In fact it is in their best interest to 1. train domestic talent 2. import foreign workers 3. domestic salaries are now depressed 4. profit.
Neither Gates nor Zuckerberg got rich and where they are by working for someone. Certainly not working for someone in slaverITy.
You forgot the supply part. Coding training is the new English major, and any parent who doesn't want a 35 year old cellar dweller in their house should probably try to talk their chilren into som eother career choice.
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Coding training is the new English major,
That's not a bad analogy. Increasingly, the white collar job market is viewing basic training in programming to be an essential skill, and it's the responsibility of the applicant, not the employer.
I'm trying to imagine the people in Human Resources doing coding.......
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You mean destroy more jobs.
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and you want 60-80 hours a week for that 40K and it's in the bay area where rent is very high.
Re:H1-Bs rock (Score:5, Informative)
You have no idea what you are talking about.
Bay Area hiring manager. New average college grads are paid $100K+ - H1-B, F1, or US citizen.
If ARE you in the Bay area getting paid 40K then look for another job, today. Those H1-Bs are **PORTABLE**. You can get another job as easily as anyone else, just gotta drop a FYI form into the mail moving the visa to the new employer. You can change employers immediately, you don't even need to wait for the change of employer form to be processed (just make *sure* it is filled out properly). The H1-B is not indentured servitude, you can compete for jobs with everyone else.
The H1-B does affect supply and demand, but not in the way you people all think. The supply is global. If there is no local supply. The demand moves offshore.
You know what happens when I try and try and try and fail to hire enough developers in the Bay area (for anywhere from $100K to $500K+ depending on experience)? The project gets done anyway, but the work gets moved to Canada or India or China where the visa issue doesn't restrict my ability to hire.
I'd rather relocate those people to the Bay area - pay them competitive local wages, have them pay local taxes, spend money in the local economy etc. But becuase of visa caps I can't do that. Having a distributed team across timezones causes a *lot* more problems than simply paying a competitive local wage. If I apply for a H1-B for them they have about a 30% chance of being picked in the lottery each year. I can't run my business with that level of uncertainty, so the jobs go offshore!!! I fail to see how that is a good outcome for the US.
Where the H1-Bs *ARE* badly badly abused is by Indian outsoucing companies, not by places like Microsoft. It gets abused in two ways:
1) They will bring in one barely qualified person as a local contact on a H1-B visa. That person will interact with the client and send all the work to be done overnight in India.
2) They will bring in barely qualified workers, train them (to replace expensive US workers), then send them back to India to continue for less money. The way the visa laws are written - the the visas are only for TEMPORARY workers - all but encourages this!!!
Tightening up on the above two would seriously improve the H1-B situation for legitimate US companies. It's not the current requirements, but the job should be for an *ongoing* position, not just temporary. If you've got a history of using H1-Bs for short term contracts then no more visas for you Mr off-shoring company.
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1) not in the bay area, and
2) cannot move to the bay area
There is such a thing as family obligations and local ties to community. One hotspot in the US is not good enough.
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Huh? What ivory tower do you live in?
Production cost only affect one part of the decision process: Whether or not a product gets produced. If the production cost is higher than the possible sales revenue, it will not be produced.
The price of a product is entirely dependent on the spot where it's possible to maximize revenue. Price never has, and never will, be affected by production cost, unless cost pushes against the price to the point where profit becomes zero. Then, and only then, cost will push the pri
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Never?
The machine I'm typing this on cost less than the computer I was using twenty years ago. And has many times the memory, mass storage, and processor speed.
So MUCH better machine for rather less. Sounds like a price drop as a result of dropping costs to me. Or are you asserting that terabyte hard-drives are just as expensive as they were twenty years ago? Ditto 4gig of RAM, etc...
So, provide your interpretation as to the reasons for my curre
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Yes, and when did that start? Before or after Intel finally had a competitor for the CPU market (well, one where the CPUs weren't just kinda-sorta-pretty-much-but-not-quite compatible)?
Name ONE SINGLE instance where you can't immediately trace it to stiff competition. Ram and storage are both dirt cheap, due to a lot of suppliers. Even SSDs are rather cheap, despite being the latest and greatest development in the area. In the CPU market you only have two suppliers, and you will notice that the prices refle
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Is it possible that you're setting the bar too high and expect too much, too soon from your new hires? Remember, if you want people to stay with you and not jump ship quickly, you need to expect them to grow into the job because if they can already do everything you need, they're not going to be interested in what you want, they'll be looking for new challenges and new things to learn and they'll leave as soon as they find it. I don't know
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There are plenty of 'programmers' in the U.S., but the ones who actually know what they are doing are very difficult to find and keep!
No, really, they are not that difficult to find and keep. They might be difficult to find and keep when another company is offering a 20% raise over their existing salary and you don't match it. But that isn't actually "difficult" in the sense of the word, that is just market forces saying that you arn't paying enough.
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