How Gen Y Should Talk To Old People At Work 459
jfruh writes "A lot of ink has been spilled explaining to Boomers and Gen Xers how they can best manage, motivate, and retain talented members of the Millenial generation on the job. But it's a two-way street, and those born in the '80s and later could also use a lesson on how to best communicate with older co-workers, who after all will determine their promotion and pay raises for the foreseeable future. Advice includes: make actual phone calls, mirror the level of formality your co-workers use in e-mails, and for Pete's sake don't ask them things like 'R U going?' in a non-texting medium."
Hey grandpa! (Score:5, Funny)
Howz it shakin?
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Re:Hey grandpa! (Score:5, Funny)
Re:Me at my home computer: (Score:5, Funny)
I thought such animal cruelty was banned :)
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lolz u old
I got an email from one of the sysadmins today, he'd written "2morow". Checking the mail headers showed it was written in Thunderbird This makes him old: younger people wouldn't have become so used to text-speak, they had smart(er)phones too early.
as loudly (Score:5, Funny)
as possible.
Re:as loudly (Score:4, Insightful)
As a millennial, I offer this advice: don't fucking have anime as your desktop wallpaper, don't have an interest in Pokemon or Yu-Gi-Oh. If you're older than 12 and still playing with that shit, your coworkers will think you're a wimpy bitch as best and a creepy pedophile at worst. Seriously, guys, we're grown men here.
-- Ethanol-fueled
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Re:as loudly (Score:5, Interesting)
The hell do folks' personal gaming interest have to do with their professional life?
Once they put it on their work computer's desktop it gets noticed.
One of my colleagues has a screengrab from a film; a huge gun against someone's head. I didn't much like seeing that. I'm not going to complain about it, but I think it's a bit disrespectful and immature.
An anime/manga background isn't disrespectful (hopefully!), but think about what impression you want to give to colleagues beforehand. That's all.
Re:as loudly (Score:5, Insightful)
What exactly did his desktop background disrespect? Why does it concern you? it's his desktop background, not yours.
Disliking portrayals of violence isn't uncommon, and it concerned me because I sometimes have to see it when I work with him.
There is obviously a scale. The plain, default blue background at one end, and something like pornography / gore at the other. In a normal office the violent film clip isn't far over my boundary line, but at a school it would be. At school, something gothic with skeletons is just a bit odd, but I'd choose something else at the hospital.
Essentially, I'm judging someone else by comparing their behaviour to mine.
Re:as loudly (Score:4, Insightful)
Because, as the song says, "high school never ends" and "all that matters is climbing up that social ladder".
Work is basically a LARP where you play a role to get the gold. You might not actually be a lvl 1 Office Drone, but you damn well better learn to pretend. And it makes sense, from viewpoint of efficiency: no one there knows you, at least not initially, but they know what to expect from an Office Drone.
Life is pretty surreal most of the time. Don't get upset about it, just enjoy the implicit comedy.
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Look, in case you puerile dorks haven't yet figured this out - In the corporate world, the world in which I work(so I know a few things), perception is very important, especially because chances are your boss is an older geezer than you are who was raised properly with manners.
When you get hired, you embrace the corporate culture. I know that sounds a lot for you social-retards to handle, as you're the ones playing music loudly on your phone in public and performing other obnoxious habits. Chances are, you think the real world is like the movie The Social Network and your parents didn't instill any discipline in you and let you do whatever the fuck you wanted to do in public. You were the kid whose parents let him run around the restaurant and randomly kick other diners in the shins, and then your yuppie-asshole dad explained it all away by telling angry partrons some dumb shit like, "he's just exploring."
If somebody has Anime on their desktop or plays Pokemon without shame, it means that chances are they are one of those compulsively nose-wiping snots I described above. I am a millenial, albeit an older one, but I understand those things because I was properly raised. When I was a kid, anybody who was playing with action figures in the fifth grade was laughed at, because by then cool kids like me were listening to Kriss-Kross and going to dances with girls. Get with it, kids.
-- Ethanol-fueled
So ad-hominems, jumping to conclusions, unjustified judgmental attitude, heavy reliance on strawmen . . . I don't think you're nearly as mature as you think you are. Unless you don't count maturity and rationality in the list of proper raising and development.
Re:as loudly (Score:5, Insightful)
Ah yes, holier than thou rhetoric. Perhaps corporate culture should focus more on results and not perception and appearance? You might make more money that way.
When I get hired, I enter into an agreement to do a specific set of tasks in order to receive a specific amount of money. If the work gets done correctly, in a timely fashion, I get paid. Otherwise, I don't and am fired. I have embraced nothing. This is the difference between an employee and a slave. A slave is forced to embrace the cultural whims of his master in order to gain a pittance for living expenses..if he's lucky.
If corporate culture routinely uses unsubstantiated opinions of minor traits to differentiate potential employees, I am not surprised our economy is in the shitter. How can such irrational people make good products and thus any money if the only skill they have and prize in new hires is social favoritism and conformity?
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Nevertheless, if your company's culture is despicably drama ridden, status driven, and passive aggressive, you will not retain the best talent. You're right, the owner can do what he wants, but he has to live with the consequences of his choices just like everyone else.
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Sound advice: (Score:3)
Indeed. Anime will get you branded as a pedophile creep.
Keep it professional and put up soft core furry porn instead.
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Grown men who play with children's toys are creepy. An occasional animated show is fine; making it the center of your life is weird.
Re:as loudly (Score:5, Insightful)
Grown men who play with children's toys are creepy.
You almost have a point there. I mean, the average age of game players is 30 years old [theesa.com], so by that definition, if you're a gamer, you're creepy.
An occasional animated show is fine; making it the center of your life is weird.
An occasional football/baseball/basketball/foosball game is fine; making it the center of your life is weird.
An occasional movie is fine; is fine; making it the center of your life is weird.
An occasional book is fine; making it the center of your life is weird.
An occasional opera is fine; making it the center of your life is weird.
Eating the occasional meal is fine; making it the center of your life is weird.
An occasional comic book is fine; making it the center of your life is weird.
Collecting the occasional stamp is fine; making it the center of your life is weird.
Playing the occasional guitar is fine; making it the center of your life is weird.
Anything is weird if you take it to some crazy extreme. Who are you to be the gatekeeper of what hobbies are weird and which ones aren't, based on some arbitrary scale of weirdness?
How even Star Wars obsession looks (Score:3)
Re:as loudly (Score:5, Funny)
The good thing about being a "grown man" is that you can make anything you want the center of your life without caring whether someone else thinks its weird, creepy or just plain nuts.
So gaze upon my cute puppy wallpaper and despair.
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the original 3 generations of pokemon
What the fuck are you talking about? 151 and full stop.
How other gens should talk to gen Y at work. (Score:2, Insightful)
Maybe that would also be a solution
Re:How other gens should talk to gen Y at work. (Score:4, Insightful)
Would be nice if employers adhered to this mantra, too. But no, they make people work in demeaning open-plan offices, require them to attend purile team building sessions and generally treat their workforce like children. It's no wonder employees have contempt for them.
So basically... (Score:5, Insightful)
Don't communicate like an idiot. What a good idea!
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Exactly...
Who uses "U/R" in professional communication, that's not working in marketing?
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Who uses "U/R" in professional communication, that's not working in marketing?
The next guy to be fired.
Re:So basically... (Score:5, Insightful)
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As long as we're talking about courtesy... don't call them "old". While it is common knowledge that the definition of old is 10 years older than you are, referring to another person as 'old' is universally bad form. You can be old school. You can be older. But you can't be old.
Okay, that out of the way... if Gen Y really wants some respect, they can start by showing some. You are not better than the rest of us because you can ipad your interwebs. We made those things for you, so don't act like growing up wi
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Occasionally I get email that I just don't understand, sometimes even from HR, including acronyms that I have to look up online. Like "LMK" last week that had me baffled. Plus a director who seems to confuse twitter with email, as the emails are always one line long and short on information (I think due to being typed during boring meetings while pretending to pay attention).
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how is it that common standards make so much sense for html, programming languages, engineering but not for human communication?
HTML and other standards do change but usually to add clarity or features.
I can see the value of changes to language which increase clarity or make it more concise (for example sharing a common vocabulary of "patterns" can increase your teams design and programming effectiveness. )
But arbitrary slang which the other person is unlikely to understand or which doesn't have a clear and
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I know this one!
It's because everyone has been talking for as long as they can remember and they confuse that with communication.
After that it becomes a question of what they want to communicate versus what communication you expect to receive. Ever met a manager who talks during the entire meeting even though nothing he is saying applies to the subject of the meeting?
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The difference is that the browser will enforce the standards or not. Whereas the only enforcement mechanisms on language are completely arbitrary, if I tell you that I'm typing this on a wazulator, as long as you understand what a wazulator is, then it's a perfectly acceptable term to use. Other considerations are more about social control than about communication.
Re:So basically... (Score:5, Insightful)
"language never stands still, it constantly evolves, there is no standard"
Stop whining.
True, language never stands still. It constantly evolves. But if you think there is no standard, you're exactly the kind of idiot TFA was referring to.
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How true. Every time someone debates these things, someone shows up with strong anti-prescriptivist arguments. As usual, there doesn't seem to be any rational basis for this in the real world. There are rules.
Re:So basically... (Score:5, Insightful)
Re:So basically... (Score:4, Insightful)
> language never stands still, it constantly evolves, there is no standard
Yes there is. The standard is "don't look like an idiot". This may mean different things but most people would agree that writing emails like "R U going today?" on a regular basis in a business environment would qualify.
> the world changes. deal with it
No. Anyone writing emails that can't spell out three-letter words is going to look like an idiot even in the future. Sorry, but I don't see that changing.
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They don't just say "LOL WTF ;-P" in emails. They say it out loud.
No, seriously, instead of laughing out loud (hence the abbreviation LOL) they will say "ell oh ell". As in, they speak the letters. They'll also say "smiley face" or "winky face" instead of smiling or winking. I wish I was joking but I am not.
Oh noes! To think my boomer generation said "mumbles" instead of actually mumbling.
And my born-in-1935 engineer father said stuff like "there were N people already in line."
Breaking the Ice (Score:5, Funny)
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Strange, I thought it was an Old Yeller reference. Guess it's the glue factory for me.
How about (Score:5, Insightful)
You treat them as you want to be treated, and don't worry about if they are younger or older.. They are your coworkers, that is all that matters.
Silly me (Score:5, Insightful)
I thought using proper English and a little courtesy and respect in writing was required of *all* generations when dealing with business, especially customers and "the boss." Equally silly, I always thought it was only *courteous* to use the phone or even (*shudder*) walk over to someone's office to talk to them!
But I guess the "kids" think it's funny to use text-slang instead, further exposing their ignorance and lack of respect for others.
Re:Silly me (Score:5, Informative)
But I guess the "kids" think it's funny to use text-slang instead, further exposing their ignorance and lack of respect for others.
I realize you're being rather tongue-in-cheek - but I wanted to say...
I work at a university, routinely interact with student workers, and have to say - these sorts of "stories" are garbage. Kids vary in terms of their work ethic, as has always been the case. There's nothing particularly different about recent generations compared to earlier ones. Even the kids who need to improve their work ethic mostly know the right way to communicate with their bosses and co-workers. They get a bit loose when talking to coworkers who fall in their own age group - but that was true even way back when *I* was the new kid.
And, incidentally, back when I was a new worker - trimming the wicks on the gas lamps - there were magazine articles saying basically the same sorts of things to people my age.
The real lesson here (if there is one) is that the folks who are attempting to make a living giving career advice to young people haven't changed significantly in many decades.
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Forcing people to talk to you on the phone for something that could be handled over email is not only NOT courteous, it's downright rude. Don't force people to conform to your schedule.
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y u b h8ing? communication works as long as evry1 no wut were sayin, rite?
(And now, if you'll excuse me, I need to find some form of soap that I can use to rinse my brain, since I'm left feeling sullied after having written that. Note: 29 year-old here, and I fully appreciate that the point of communicating is not merely to convey a simple idea, which can in some cases be accomplished through the use of slang, but to also convey a tone. For that, you need to express yourself with more nuance and care than t
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It also has an added bonus that you now have a written proof of the conversions in the email trail. So they cannot deny that they never said this or that. It is important in some sectors of the corporate world.
Backwards (Score:5, Insightful)
As a Boomer (age 59), I'm finding it more important to embrace the future than ask the young 'uns to adopt the past. I think the last time I used a land line phone at work was over three years ago, and that was an exception; it's all Skype and Hangouts now, and I like it better.
I do miss some of the perqs of the past: private offices, beer at lunch...
That said, now get off my lawn!
Re:Backwards (Score:5, Insightful)
+1. I remember when business was mostly done on the phone, and it was a really inefficient medium. So inefficient that you needed specialist employees whose job was placing calls... Every now and then I end up in contact with an industry that is still mostly phone-based (e.g. movers) and I'm reminded what that was like.
Phone is good when you have something sensitive or open-ended and/or you really need to sound someone out, hear their tone of voice, pauses and so forth. Interestingly, I've noticed that I and most folks set those calls up with an e-mail or text - we don't just cold-call. That feels rude now.
I've also noticed that not all of my fellow senior colleagues have adapted to e-mail well. Messages should be short and clear and not waste the recipient's time.
Beer at lunch, that was good.
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I do miss some of the perqs of the past: private offices, beer at lunch...
Beer?
Bottle of Bordeaux.
And yes, I do have a private office.
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It's so cute that you think a 3D FPS is "old school"!
Not "old people" .... (Score:2)
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AKA Greybeards.
Baby Boomers are a burden now. (Score:5, Insightful)
...to work eighty hours a week for the first three or four years to prove our worth,..
As a Gen X'er, I saw my Dad bust his ass.
Then get laid off when management made cuts to make their numbers. R&D was ALWAYS one of the first cuts. My father told me "Do NOT become an engineer! Become one of the bean counters."
What did I learn? Busting your ass does NOT prove anything. It will NOT be rewarded. Living to work is stupid: you work to live.
That's why all the Baby Boomers are now a BURDEN on our medical system: all that work and no play made them obese, diabetic, and with heart attacks. They ran themselves into the ground with work.
Even though they worked that hard, they are taking more out of the system than they EVER put in.
And now we have a bunch of self entitled ...
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"That's why all the Baby Boomers are now a BURDEN on our medical system: all that work and no play made them obese, diabetic, and with heart attacks."
That would be due to their non-exercising lifestyles and spectacularly shitty diet. Exercise and diet weren't cool when Boomers were growing up, and it shows. They played plenty, but it wasn't particularly healthy.
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Exercise and diet weren't cool when Boomers were growing up, and it shows.
You missed the early 1980s, when everybody did aerobics.
In the 1960s, you almost never saw oinkers of high school age. Now they're common.
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Re:Baby Boomers are a burden now. (Score:5, Insightful)
If i had not already posted a bunch. I would mod this up as MUCH as i can.
I think most of the gen x and y people. Myself included looking at our parents. The so called 'baby boomers and greatest generation(HA)'. Saw how the 50+ work hour weeks wrecked them, heard how they lamented how they did not have the time they wanted for themselves. Or how they could not spend the time they wanted to their family.
And thought. No, I, won't do that to myself.
Comment removed (Score:5, Insightful)
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Sonny, 1992 was the election of Bill Clinton. What president in US history had a better record of peace, prosperity and economic growth?
None.
The technology that you take for granted on a day-to-day basis was brought to full flower in the time you claim was a disaster.
It seems to me you are just trying to weasel out of paying the same burden your forebears did. The debt today is no different in terms of percentage of GDP that it was when I was born right after WWII. You didn't hear the boomers complaining ab
Texting abbreviations in emails... (Score:2)
Forget about Gen Y geeks trying to get along with their older counterparts in the IT department. I see this kind of inappropriate informality from TEACHERS in school related communications.
Different attitude toward technology (Score:2)
The older generation grew up along with technology, younger people grew up with complex technology already developed. The older generation can remember whn you could count the transistors in a computer and I think has a stronger tendency to think of complex technology as a system of simpler components. I think that younger people have a more "functional" view, less interest in understanding the detailed underpinnings.
Put positively, the younger generation as an approach to technology that is more like abst
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This sort of view can result in writing horrifically inefficient code that is layered on top of other code that you don't understand at all.
See the last Java stack backtrace that appeared in your browser when some server-side code aborted.
Dress appropriately. (Score:2)
Just just communication skills - far too many younger people have never been told how to dress for work or for a job interview. Everyone working in an office should own at least one decent suit. Learn when to wear a tie. Cover your tats is you have them. These things are noticed by people who are in charge.
Still this nonsense? (Score:3)
Didn't Billy Gates, Steve Jobs and Bezos didn't happen? What about Gogglers?
Even in the City of London, a place where everybody used to wear a neck tie and a suite, that is old advise. I have not worn a suit or necktie for 20 years, and when interviewing people for high tech positions the last thing I, and other hiring personnel, was thinking about was the candidate's attire.
As long as people are clean the topic isn't even talked about (in some localities is even illegal to impose a dress code).
Re:Still this nonsense? (Score:4, Funny)
What about Gogglers?
What about them, indeed. Prancing down the streets of Neo-Londinium in their altitude scarves and and flying tweeds as if they had just stepped out of the furnace-room of Her Majesty's Airship Ultra-Titania. Always clacking on their pocket telestenographs and with a steam automaton snorting behind as like as not, fouling the pavement with coal smoke and terrifying the horses.
Youth of today have no respect.
They wish it was an issue. (Score:3)
When I look around my office most colleagues are at least 35, if any group of people has been hit by the economic meltdown that is 20 somethings.
So if you as a 20 something have a job, don't piss of your older colleagues: they are in control of the situation with a vengeance, not only they are the bosses, but they are also getting most of the well paid jobs.
Younger people have an image problem, behaving like over developed teenagers won't endear them with the old timers holding the reigns of power.
the phone issue is the most annoying (Score:4)
I hate phones. Phones are stupid. I can see using them as a last resort or if something is really important. But if you're just doing day to day communications they're a giant waste of time. Texts are faster, less disruptive, and frequently more productive.
In a text, people get to the point immediately. They don't spend five minutes with rambling irrelevancies and they don't spend another five minutes after the main point with more rambling irrelevancies.
Sometimes you need to get through those rambling irrelevancies just so people can say them and we can move beyond them. But being burdened with them in every single conversation is annoying.
This has all happened before, and it will allAGRH! (Score:3)
Baby Boomers are just fine, in fact I know several of their parents, even they can use Linux! I call them The Lucky Few". [wikipedia.org] Gnome has mouse "drag and drop" threshold that keeps them from accidentally copying folders and files with their shaky hands...
I've volunteered to teach Computer Literacy for years at Community Centers -- since I was a teen. So, I've got quite a bit of experience as a Gen X'er to hand down to the Gen Y folks, and it's this:
Baby Boomers are the least of your worries. As Gen Y, you must be prepared to deal with Generation Z.
So, get your Z-Day kit in order -- It's like a hurricane kit, but with more shotguns.
Do what you know you have to do. Malls are not safe-houses. The freeways will be tasty flesh bottlenecks.
Check your friends and loved ones for bite marks. Remember, if she's got teeth marks, she's not your grandmother anymore.
Strong Work Ethic (Score:3)
As an example, when we graduated college, our rite of passage into the accounting, law, consulting, engineering, and other similar professions was to work eighty hours a week
I'm a contractor. If you want me to work eighty hours a week, you will be paying me for eighty hours a week.
Seniority being the key word (Score:4, Interesting)
I can give a specific example where a single fresh out of university salesman outsold the other 11 salesman combined. He had been put in a crap area where they thought his average sale would be around $10,000-$30,000. So they put him on a small base salary with a 30% commission. His average sale(he made many) was actually around $500,000 and they refused to pay out the commission. They said it wouldn't be fair to the other salesmen and that he would get the same 6% that they did. Oddly enough he took this for a few years but left in the end.
So what I have seen over and over is a pattern of boomers who seem to think that highly qualified 20 somethings are arrogant whereas their mistreatment of them is not. The beauty of this is that the qualified 20 somethings usually figure out that they are being mistreated and move into organizations filled with other non-boomers who want talent not arrogance.
But the most amusing situation is when the reverse happens. When a young company filled with young people accidentally hires a boomer. Often the boomer has left something like the telephone company or a Nortel and immediately sets to work trying to make the dynamic young company into a remake of their old stodgy company. One of the first symptoms is the previously unused words "Org-chart".
But I have seen a few examples of where young and old worked together extremely well. The typical situation was that you have a boomer who has zero interest in the day to day running of the company and all they care about is money. So they go out and raise the money from their fellow (well capitalized) boomers and let the young people do what ever the hell it is that they do.
But this last if very little different in perception but entirely different in outcome when you have a well capitalized boomer try to run a company of 20 somethings. The usual symptom here is that the boomer is completely incapable of learning the nuances of what is going on. So you have a technology company that should be releasing a new product every 2 months but instead is bogged down by the boomer grinding development to a halt while he deals with another boomer marketing company that will debate for months which shade of blue the background should be.
Now the above experience covers technology. In non technology companies this is where the boomers' capital trumps all. This would be the boomer coffee shop owner trying to be hip and cool, hiring a bunch of hipsters, paying them minimum wage, and driving to wine parties in his brand new leased BMW. No communication problems their, you kiss his ass you find another job.
Re:Seniority being the key word (Score:4, Interesting)
I can give a specific example where a single fresh out of university salesman outsold the other 11 salesman combined. He had been put in a crap area where they thought his average sale would be around $10,000-$30,000. So they put him on a small base salary with a 30% commission. His average sale(he made many) was actually around $500,000 and they refused to pay out the commission. They said it wouldn't be fair to the other salesmen and that he would get the same 6% that they did. Oddly enough he took this for a few years but left in the end.
As the CEO of Avis once said, "That's what you want to happen, stupid."
Something similar happened to Ross Perot at IBM. He was on commission, and one year he made more than the CEO of IBM. Then IBM imposed an annual cap on commissions. He hit his cap in late January, and wondered what to do with the rest of the year. So he started EDS and became a billionaire.
OMG (Score:3)
Like, you know, these articles always like to lay out GenY (and GenX) as like you know some horrible types of people. But dude/bro remember, unlike yo baby boomer ass self and your gramps. Companies don't show loyalty. They shouldn't expect it either.
And when baby boomer bro and grampa dude be using incomplete sentences and acting like dicks. But not providing any perks like they got (ie: 30 hours, no benefits, or 60 hour contract worker let go at any moment). Don't expect these younger generations to have loyalty back.
***
Sorry... I am not a part of Generation Y. But most people I know who are Generation Y work hard, with little complaint. They've gotten a bum ride. Bad economy, flipping burgers with a bachelors, and are being left with three generations of debt. Few ask for handouts. But many dislike infringement into their personal life. We made it all about the dollar. So their attitude is basically, "I don't trust you. I work. You pay. That's the end of it." And that's not their fault. That's the fault of baby boomers, and gramps.
And if they seem to not care about sending you a decent message. It might be because you're not paying them a decent wage.
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I was born in mid-1979 and feel the same tug. Watching the c/o 1996 enter college and then watching the next 4++++ years of incoming freshmen, I saw the cultural shift first-hand. We truly were the last before the big change hit.
We may only be borderline Gen-X, but we're certainly not Gen-Y...
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I think it was probably always like that, it's just that people didn't gripe about it.
Personally, I was born during the last bit of the Carter administration in 1980, and it irritates me to be retroactively moved to a generation that has little in common with me. I may be marginally Gen-X, but none of my friends had cell phones in high school, a few of them had beepers. And most of the kids I went to class with didn't have the internet at home.
Not that I have anything against Gen-Y or the millenials, but re
Re:Not concerned (Score:4, Interesting)
The whole generation thing is BS anyways. I was born in 1959. I don't fit that generation or the one after it very well at all. I like computers, am quite computer literate, I play computer games (mostly MMOs), I read SF and Fantasy. I have a smart phone, I use the web in a variety of ways on a daily basis.
I get very tired of being lumped into a generation that somehow doesn't get it or something just because of my age.
Now, I don't sk8, I don't use text speech abbreviations, I can usually spell, I have owned various game systems but got rid of them because I don't like playing them as much as computer games, but I get tired of being treated like I am from the Middle Ages too :P
Re:Not concerned (Score:5, Insightful)
I was born in 1959 and this article is shit.
Use the phone
Fuck no. Use email for work - we want a trace for fucks sake.
Return email etiquette: When you receive an email from a Baby Boomer, reply using a similar format. If they begin with “Hi Joe” in every email, then you return every email with “Hello Eric”. If they end every email with a letter-like ending such as “Best wishes”, “Best”, “Thanks”, or another equivalent, return your emails with the same courtesy.
Oh fuck, I bet this guy top-posts.
Discuss technology at an appropriate level: As you read this, note that it’s coming from a life-long techie, former CIO and current CTO of a company I started. It’s easy for Gen X’ers and Gen Y’ers that grew up using technology to technically overpower those who did not grow up on technology. We are digital immigrants and you are digital natives. There is a difference.
WTF? People older than me invented all this shit! I don't have to be worried abot some kid blinding me with anything other than bullshit.
Work hard: Baby Boomers have an extremely strong work ethic.
Is this guy delusional? Work to live, don't live to work.
Re:Not concerned (Score:5, Insightful)
It's always rich when they use "extremely strong work ethic" to explain away the advantages that came to living in the post war years. As if we wouldn't work hard too if we had at least some reasonable prospect of retiring or getting a holiday bonus. We'd be incredibly rich working hard, if we were competing against the 3rd world and a bunch of bombed out 1st and 2nd world nations as well.
Or the fact that they could work a summer job and pay for their college education, assuming they chose to get one in the first place. As recently as the '80s, the government was paying 90% of the cost of attending a public school. Not to mention that they shipped most of the jobs that didn't require a college degree overseas or had so many applicants that a B.A. became a standard screening filter for even the most menial jobs.
Re:Not concerned (Score:5, Insightful)
Who is this "they" that shipped the jobs overseas. The unemployed older workers deemed too old to "fit" into what companies have become?
The biggest problem there wasn't generational, it was cultural in a perverted sense. MBAitis took over the corporate suite. Simultaneously, open trade was also promoted by the government through trade agreements, mind you the economy would have stagnated without it. The result though was that jobs moved to the least cost producer...that is if you counted cost like yer basic dickless MBA, i.e., cost is the means of production NOW. It didn't account for experience, the ability of the company to be a company 5 years from now, happy workers willing to go above and beyond the call because the company was willing to go above and beyond the call, etc.
In short, MBAitis means getting yours now because you are more important than any cogs in the wheel, your company means nothing to you because you'll find another, your company's product means nothing to you, pride of workmanship means nothing to you, you are merely a cost-benefit analysis abstracted into a shell of a person with a depth of near nothing.
After working with youngins and oldins for nearly 40 years, there isn't a generational problem (in general), but there is a management problem.
Re:Not concerned (Score:5, Interesting)
Yes, but most of the regulatory changes happened during the '80s and early '90s. A period during which the young folks didn't have a say.
If folks your age were too stupid to realize that free trade agreements were a bad idea or that the government has to actually tax people in order to pay for services, that's not really our fault. You guys will get to retire with most of the Social Security you were promised. And chances are substantially better that you'll have some sort of pension to go with it.
These days, pensions are rare, I can't remember the last time I even saw a job posting that even promised something more than a 401k match.
The whole, I got mine, now to hell with you attitude of older voters has done an incredible amount of damage to the ability of the young folks to make a decent living. We work harder than you folks did for less. And we get less and less each year as inflation continually outpaces wage improvements. And folks on social security get COLA even when the inflation is negative.
Re: (Score:3)
The problem with maximizing shareholder value is that it's typically done in such a superficial way. It's usually done based purely on market cap and share price. Which is to say, it rewards executives that can con a lot of people and punishes those that actually invest in the future of the company more than 6 months out.
Theoretically maximizing shareholder value should require focus on the other constituencies as well. It's just that dividend policies tend to not reward people for holding onto share for th
Re:Not concerned (Score:5, Informative)
“Our youth now love luxury. They have bad manners, contempt for authority; they show disrespect for their elders and love chatter in place of exercise; they no longer rise when elders enter the room; they contradict their parents, chatter before company; gobble up their food and tyrannize their teachers.”
Socrates
Re:Not concerned (Score:4, Insightful)
You're old enough to be my dad, but I agree - I hate using the phone. For several reasons. The first is that in a highly technical environment, it is easier to follow along in an email. It is more precise. Second, in the technical world, you may have to deal with people who have very strong accents more than half of your time. I know it is a personal failure, but I have a very difficult time with exceedingly heavy accents of all kinds. Not to mention, a long of the clients I work with are in departments overseas, so I am trying to decipher what is being said through both a very heavy accent *and* an awful phone connection.
As for the email stuff... "mimic the other person's behavior" has less to do with "how to deal with the elderly people at least 30 or years old" and more to do with "how to be a slick salesman snake type person" or "how to be a sociopath". People care more about the content and efficacy of your email than fucking salutations (though, for fuck's sake, can we get back to inline quoting and commenting?!).
Most importantly of all is that Gen x/y are not "digital natives". This is an idiotic parroted line of bullshit that needs to die. This is no different than idiots who talk about how technologically inclined children are, because they can use an iPad by the age of three. Simply watching netflix on ten different devices doesn't make you a technological-fucking-anything. This goes not just for five year olds today, but also millennials, gen x/y and baby boomers. There are highly technical people in all groups (the most used elements of today's technology was developed by the oldest among us -- many so old that they're not even alive any more!) and highly ignorant people in all of the groups. I mean, shit, I know far more gen x'ers and gen y'ers who don't know a lick of code, couldn't build their own computer, couldn't avoid a virus on their machine for the life of them . . . than I know who *can* do those things.
Of course, I guess I'm not part of this discussion, anyway, because I was born in 1977 -- so I am too old for GEN Y (1980+) and too young for GEN X (up to 1975).
Re:Not concerned (Score:5, Insightful)
Whatever you like - but if you wanted promotion by a boss in that generation . . .
Promotion?
That would imply not being laid off as soon as the chief executive's bonus isn't as big is it wanted.
That would imply being permanently employed, rather than a zero-hours temp who is motiviated to work by the "promise" of a permanent job.
It would also imply that the old farts are retiring, so people can move up.
Take a look at what's happening to employment-population ratios by age group. Employment of the over 60s is skyrocketing (i.e.: they're not retiring), the 50-plus group is holding its own, and as for the twenty- and thirty-somethings... it's not a happy story.
Promotion? Delusion. Promotion happens by getting a job somewhere else, if at all.
Re:Not concerned (Score:4, Insightful)
As someone in their thirties, my advice to those in their twenties would be to put the fucking phone down, log out of facebook, and try doing some work. It goes a fuck of a long way toward, you know, staying fucking employed.
Re:Work Hard? (Score:5, Insightful)
This is absolutely ludicrous. This happens in *every* generation. Every generation says to their children: "we were better mannered, we didn't have premarital sex, we didn't have teenage sex, people didn't do drugs, we worked harder...". Apparently, they also had shorter memories (and in those case when they actually did work longer and harder (19th century), they had to because the productivity was lousy).
Also, I've noticed that "work ethic" is a shibboleth of religious wackos. Any other, normal, non-sociopathic person simply values high output per unit of effort without feeling the need to make such a fuss about it. It's simple economy.
Re:Work Hard? (Score:5, Insightful)
Also, I've noticed that "work ethic" is a shibboleth of religious wackos.
Indeed, and the religion that "work ethic" comes from is the worship of money.
Re:Work Hard? (Score:5, Funny)
My parents were married at 18. I was born 7 months after the marriage.
bloody irresponsable I call it.
My relatives always said that the second and later kids take 9 months, but the first one can pop out any old time. :)
Re:OMG (Score:5, Funny)
... I would fire their ass immediately.
...with an email stating the following:
OMG! WTF R U Doing! y wud u evar!!!! tha client wuz gonna b $$$ n now its ALL FXD! bcuz of that!
U R FIRED!!1
Re: (Score:2)
Too bad the opposite isn't true, I wish I could find a profession where the now-rare skills of good spelling and grammar are valued...and no it isn't journalism.
Re: (Score:2)
*Snort* *laugh*
Sorry, I find that very funny considering I work with someone who by all rights and accounts who is in their fifty's should not be there.
He doesn't meet the minimum requirements to have the job, he is a high school drop out, proud of it. Talks in south Carolina drawl, cat calls all the female employees, and has this 'fantasy' that everyone in the place is 'related'.
Re: (Score:2)
No just poking holes in you're 'always respect' comment.
Age does not equal wisdom or knowledge.
And it is no secret about office politics, the corporate office system as it is now is geared to psycopathic behavior. And unless you are born into the boss's or owner's family. Or are a family friend. It is the only way to get ahead.
Re:How about some respect for ancient knowlege (Score:5, Interesting)
How about having some respect for the knowledge which may be gathered by your elderly counterparts?
Youth have always been indestructible and all-knowing, in their own minds at least. All generations when young. I was in the Air Force before I started college in 1976, so I was ten years older than most of the students by my Junior year.
One class, I don't remember the subject of the class but I do remember an insolent eighteen year old punk saying the instructor, who held a Master's degree and was about 40, was ignorant.
"Kid," the instructor said, "I've forgotten more than you've ever learned."
Re:Whatever happened to merit? (Score:4, Insightful)
There is a problem, or maybe it was the 'point' of the work hard mindset.
That if you work hard at where you're at, you can be seen as 'you best fit here' so the bosses will pass you over for promotion because they figure your replacement will be worse.
But to be honest, everyone should agree and realize it's not your merits that get you jobs and promotions. It has always been and always will be WHO you manage to befriend, and WHO'S family you were born into.
Re:Whatever happened to merit? (Score:5, Insightful)
Acting like a dick never works, and insisting that people with 5x your experience do things "your way" is about as dicky as you get.
Brett
Re: (Score:2)
"text speak" is made up, it's not a word, but a made up phrase. Sometimes, for new things, you need new words.
Re: (Score:3)
First, don't call them "old people". Second, don't call "them" anything as a group.
Nah, we geezers aren't politically correct, most of us think that PC crap is bullshit. I'm old, you don't have to dance around the fact. Now, if you're talking about someone in their 40s, they're not old. You're mischaracterizing them. You're old when you get a discounted bus pass.
It pisses me off when they want ID for beer. I say "do I get a senior discount?" They say "no" and I inform them I'll show ID if a cop pulls me ove
Re:Copying Email Formats - No Thanks (Score:5, Insightful)
Please stop including redundant info in your emails. It wastes everyone's time including yours. The sooner we drop the above formalities the better.
I don't care if someone has a salutation or signature on their email -- I can usually skip the bookends without too much trouble -- as much as I detest it when I get mails with subjects including the words: "message, memo, note, about, re:, from, email, etc." as in, "subject: a note from Bob Smith re: inventory". Really? It's from Bob Smith? How would I have known? It's a note? So, not a box of chocolate or a flaming bag of dog poop contained digitally therein? That's good, I suppose. "From"? "Re"? Don't get me started. The only necessary, non-redundant word in the entire subject: "inventory". And if I'm reading it on some tiny smartphone screen, it probably got cut off! Arg.
On the other hand, I have vowed to myself that no one will ever get a positive review, recommendation or reference from me if they repeatedly write "noone" or other similarly annoying and readily detectable misspellings. Don't they ever wonder what the squiggly line is all about? I think the lack of curiosity implied here is what really hurts my wiener the most. Same goes for anyone using txt-speak in a medium without a 160 (or fewer) character limit. And punctuation, caps and paragraphs exist for a reason. If it takes me twice as long as it should to figure out what someone means, I'll be spending that extra time thinking how much I hate them. And if it's cc'd to a whole department, that time loss and irritation multiplier gets . . . multiplied.
Whole companies aren't immune from the plague, either. I worked at a firm where the annual employee evaluation form had checkboxes in the "reason for salary increase" section that included the option: "Merrit". I think everyone would agree with me that that's a bit of a red flag.
And for the sake of disclosure, in case you hadn't already guessed it, the most frequent criticism of my communication style is "long-winded". Followed by "pompous jackass".
Re: (Score:3)
YOU YOUNG HOOLIGANS, WITH YOUR JUNGLE MUSIC!
(Yes, Mr. Filter, I know that using too many caps is like yelling.)