Israeli Infrastructure Proves Too Strong For Anonymous 569
Mephistophocles writes "Ever since the beginning of Operation Pillar of Defense, hackers have been working overtime to strike a blow against the Israeli government's computer systems, Finance Minister Yuval Steinitz said Sunday. No fewer than 44 million attacks have been recorded since the operation began five days ago — with nearly all of them failing, thanks to the recent strengthening of computer defense systems in Israel. Speaking at a special press conference at the Government Computing Center in Jerusalem about the cyber war against Israel that has accompanied Hamas's rocket attacks, Steinitz said that hackers 'are trying to disable the symbols of Israeli sovereignty, to enter web sites and install anti-Israel content, thus compromising information and data and damaging the government's ability to serve the public.' Most of the attacks, he said, were against government sites, like the Prime Minister's Office site, and security-related sites, such as that of the Home Front Command, the body charged with informing Israelis on how to protect themselves in the event of an attack. Out of those 44 million-plus attacks on government and defense related sites, said Steinitz, only one succeeded – partially. One site, which he did not name, was 'wobbly for a few minutes,' but quickly recovered. Even though the government has been successful in warding off hack attacks, Steinitz said that government sites were fully backed up and mirrored, meaning that they could be replaced by a duplicate site instantly if the original site were compromised."
Screenshot or it didn't happen (Score:2)
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Lox Bagels or GTFO!
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Lox Bagels
Hamantashen would be more appropriate in this case.
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Mossad wouldnt think twice about killing them (Score:5, Insightful)
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Assange seems to have been fully aware of the threats to his life from the start. And even Mossad can't murder European citizens with impunity, so it rather depends on where in the world these hackers live.
Heh (Score:5, Funny)
The "cyber attacks" against Israel are about as impressive as Palestinian missile technology.
Re:Heh (Score:4, Interesting)
The "cyber attacks" against Israel are about as impressive as Palestinian missile technology.
Care to elaborate on this? I'm quite impressed by their homebrewed rockets. Far more effective than anything you or I could conjure up, for sure. They're extremely effective as a psychological weapon as well. Even if they never hit their target, they're still causing damage to the enemy.
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They are not homebrewn but smuggled from Iran through Egypt.
Re:Heh (Score:5, Informative)
They are not homebrewn but smuggled from Iran through Egypt.
The Qassam series of rockets are certainly manufactured by the Palestinians. The longer range rockets are of Iranian, Chinese, and Russian origins.
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They are not homebrewn but smuggled from Iran through Egypt.
The Qassam series of rockets are certainly manufactured by the Palestinians. The longer range rockets are of Russian origins.
There, fixed that for you. Chinese and Iranian rocket technologies are based on Russian rockets.
The entirely Palestinian made rockets are at the same sophistication level as the Katyusha rockets of WWII... Then again they don't have to be that complex to be effective at sowing terror. The more complex rockets are imported whole or made from imported components as they dont have enough high tech industry in the Gaza strip or West Bank to produce them.
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Rule 34 on Israel? (Score:2)
If there isn't a picture of Israel getting fucked on/by the Internet -- there soon will be.
Reminds Me of... (Score:2)
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Sort of like a 5th-grade bully pissing on a main battle tank. 'Success' might mean the tank got wet, but it's not like you're going to slow it down.
Careful with the analogies, buddy.
Pissing on a full-speed marching tank and getting it wet would still qualify as an impressing feat in my view.
Lies (Score:2, Interesting)
Well, first of all, the guy's a liar. Besides his statistics being absurd beyond the pale, he has every incentive to hide the truth, as it feeds the well-oiled Israeli propaganda machine -- and we would do the same thing, as would any marginally-competent intelligence division.
More importantly, though, the simple fact is that Anon isn't what it used to be. Many of the power-hitters have moved on to bigger and better things -- things that pay real money. The few with talent that are still around are often lo
44 million attacks (Score:3, Informative)
44 million attacks
A DDoS is a single attack.
What's an attack? (Score:2)
I'm sure every ping on a port scan counts as a failed attack here.
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Surely pings aren't the payload in a port scan (although they might be used in a precursor scan)? Ping is ICMP, whereas port scans (or indeed the very concept of ports) is TCP or UDP.
The solution to the gaza conflict! (Score:2, Funny)
(Posting anon for obvious reasons. This is a joke!)
Recently, my sister confided a fantastically silly plan for halting the missile strikes in and around the gaza strip.
Take a rickety ald crop duster, paint it in North Korean colors, and use it to drop crushed up pork rinds, and cheap beer all over the conflict area.
The beauty of the plan, is the incluson of poorly translated english language leaflets stating that the fearless leader, kim jong un, has heard of the suffering of the people in the region, and i
Absolutely brilliant (Score:2)
With any luck the scattering of crushed pork rinds would render the area selectively uninhabitable to the worst fanatics on both sides (both Jews and Muslims avoid pork). It would be alomost like setting off a dirty bomb but the "contamination" would only affect the hard liners. The hard liners all have to leave since they deeply believe that they can't have pork in any way shape or form and the more reasonable people who remain then sort out the mess.
I'll start grinding pork rinds.
Cheers,
Dave
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I am pretty sure that would qualify as a warcrime, and possibly as a crime against humanity.
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No, that's OP's job.
Poorly Thought Out Response (Score:5, Insightful)
Anons everywhere are now thinking to themselves, "challenge accepted."
Re:Poorly Thought Out Response (Score:4, Funny)
Anons everywhere are now thinking to themselves, "challenge accepted."
According to TFA, they tried already -- they're strongly suspected to have to anyway. But you wouldn't know from TFS, where anonymous only appears in the title.
Else yeah, agreed. They might might as well draw a target on their IT infrastructure's forehead.
Not that surprising (Score:5, Interesting)
When your defenses are tested on a regular and ongoing basis, they become very good. It's not like the attacks from Anonymous were the first nor will they be the last. Kudos to the people who created and maintain these systems.
It would be interesting to know if the Iraelis are doing something the rest of the world doesn't know about (chances are they wouldn't tell us but who could blame them?) or are just rigorously implementing standard computer and network security measures.
Cheers,
Dave
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Re:Not that surprising (Score:5, Insightful)
It would be interesting to know if the Iraelis are doing something the rest of the world doesn't know about
Unlikely, except for maybe a few isolated tricks.
But look at what they are doing in airport security and you quickly spot why they succeed where the rest of the western world struggles. They are focussed on actual, real, effective security measures instead of security theatre. They really want to prevent attacks, instead of giving everyone a warm and fuzzy feeling.
I work in IT security (yes, you can hire me). Most companies waste incredible amounts of money on replacing their current 5" steel front door with a new 7" steel front door, all the while ignoring that the back door is plywood and typically unlocked. Or they buy a shiny new firewall, but don't train anyone to configure and run it professionally (similarities to the TSA spending billions on body scanners but paying the people who monitor them minimum wage? Nah... never...).
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Yup, I went through Israeli airport security once. I was actually concerned I might have been detained. Everybody gets a personal interview. The interviewer was fairly intimidating. The interview wasn't very long, but I got a clear understanding that if it didn't go well it could become VERY long.
Someone should tell this guy (Score:2)
Why is this surprising? (Score:5, Insightful)
Can you think of any other country in the world that is so completely and utterly beset by constant regional threats and actually has the resources to do something about it? If there is any country that is going to build proactive and pragmatic redundancy into their national IT infrastructure to protect it from external threats (and do it right), it's Israel. They have a lot more to lose by doing it wrong.
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I'm sure that they have good security technology and procedures.
But you are only as strong as your weakest link. And any large and complex system has bugs and vulnerabilities, whether you are talking about off the shelf software such as Linux & Apache, or custom software. And even if the endpoint software is bulletproof, the network may not be. So they shouldn't brag about being uncrackable. They probably aren't.
Re:Why is this surprising? (Score:5, Interesting)
Maybe, but having hung out with people with a military background, I can vouch that there is a fairly deep-set appreciation for security that is engendered within the armed forces. Now, consider the fact that all Israeli citizens serve in the military - male and female. I think that this has a big cultural impact.
Also, factor in that the whole country is about the size of New Jersey - you're not far from a potential battleground anywhere you go. Every adult probably knows somebody who witnessed an act of terrorism firsthand - they were having incidents almost daily a decade ago. So, you get the under siege mentality as well. Compare US border security with Israeli border security and you'll see a stark contrast - you might as well compare a US state line to the Berlin wall.
The Israelis that I've met over the years don't really strike me as being anti-arabic or anything. In fact, it seems like they try to foster relationships where they can, since every so often they have to go on active duty and when you're patrolling some Palestinian neighborhood it doesn't hurt to be on good terms.
did the count every single DDos-packet (Score:2)
or were there any "attacks" worse than the usual script-kiddie ddos on a poor, unimportant webserver?
40 millions? (Score:3)
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Re:Congratulations Israel (Score:5, Insightful)
Probably because they forced these people to live in walled off Areas and took long from farmers to build those walls.
Sure Israel has done this to defend itself, but it chose the wrong path. Something like the marshall plan and a single state would have been a far better solution. Now Hamas and the Israeli far right parties need each other. This is how they both keep the power they have.
Re:Congratulations Israel (Score:4, Informative)
You know, if the palestinians hadn't been sending suicide bombers, and putting snipers on hills/buildings the wall wouldn't exist at all. Notice how you don't hear about either one anymore except at checkpoints, where they try to sneak someone in, or they've strapped it to some poor retarded kid who could be easily manipulated. Luckily the half dozen times they tried they've managed to talk the kids out of blowing themselves up.
Re:Congratulations Israel (Score:5, Insightful)
Your comment is the kind of tit-for-tat that keeps this pointless conflict going.
I acknowledged the reason for doing this, and I can even see why someone would make that choice. That does not mean I believe it to be an ideal solution.
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Their choices were between a corrupt Fatah and Hamas who runs the schools and hospitals.
Who would you have picked?
Multi-generational occupation and poverty leads to this. No one should be surprised.
I am not sure why it is so hard for you to see that I do not support the palestinians. I am only saying that it is not hard to see why this situation is like this and that none of the participants are blameless.
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Their choices were between a corrupt Fatah and Hamas who runs the schools and hospitals.
Who would you have picked?
Multi-generational occupation and poverty leads to this. No one should be surprised.
I am not sure why it is so hard for you to see that I do not support the palestinians. I am only saying that it is not hard to see why this situation is like this and that none of the participants are blameless.
This
I do not support Fatah, I am against Hamas, but I have no ill will towards the Palestinians.
Violence and stupidity breed... more violence and stupidity.
Try meeting a Palestinian (or Iranian, Saudi, Israeli or other hated nation of your choice) outside of their own nation. They're normal people, the Palestinians I've met have been friendly and hard working but here in Australia we have an environment that encourages that. Try getting a good job or decent education in the Gaza strip. Its a shitty
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They have the choice forced on them. Usually because they're not worth keeping, or because the family has been paid for the glory of allah, or because they're so blindly indoctrinated that they wish to kill jews. That's the reality of it there. It doesn't help when the education system itself(paid and funded by the UN and inturn by taxpayers world wide), teaches the same thing. Or that kids get a daily dose of it too on their state run TV. And never forget that it's multigenerational.
Nothing you just said couldn't also be said about Israel and Zionism. Crazy is crazy. And you religious zealots who think some Sky Daddy is calling you out for a special mission are ALL FUCKING CRAZY. Crazy and dangerous.
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All arguing on the internet is pointless.
The tit-for-tat I referred to was not of internet arguments but of the two sides in this conflict. Oh boy look an AC without the ability to read at an eight grade level.
Re:Congratulations Israel (Score:5, Insightful)
So, who's going to break the cycle of violence? If you meet violence with violence, you get more violence. Someone will have to meet violence with kindness, and you don't seem to think the Palestinians can do it. So shouldn't you be encouraging Israel to do so?
The only other alternative is the complete elimination of the Palestinian people. But by operaghost's [slashdot.org] logic, that would justify Palestinian aggression against Israel.
The real solution is to acknowledge that neither Jewish nor Muslim states have any right to exist. The only just government is secular and democratic. Create a secular and democratic state where both israelis and palestinians have equal rights to vote. Then they can fight their wars in parliament, and terrorism will be a law enforcement issue.
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Well let's work backwards a bit. Palestinians in Israel have the right to vote already. So that's sure not the problem, so do Arabs there. Actually they have more rights, and equal rights that any Israeli do under the law. Now don't forget that most of those in the refugee camps, I use that term loosely are Jordanian and self-identified as such. Most were also kicked out for the attempted assassination of the entire royal family.
They're effectively the bastard child of the entire middle east because of
Re:Congratulations Israel (Score:5, Informative)
Palestinians in Israel have the right to vote already.
But not the ones in occupied Gaza.
The reality aside, Israel has attempted to break the cycle of violence. Note that they limited or completely stopped all attacks against Hamas several times.
But they haven't stopped building on Palestinian land.
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Israel would reject that because they would believe that it would screw with their demographics.
Which is a fundamentally anti-democratic position, and not worthy of any respect whatsoever.
It is the primary thing that prevents a one state solution.
Exactly, Israel's anti-democratic position is the primary thing that prevents a one-state solution.
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And if the Israelis didn't use terrorism and forceful evictions to displace thousands of Palestinians from their lands, we wouldn't be at this point either.
What's the point in determining who shot first? We should rather concentrate on how to stop this madness, as the conflict has far outstretched the limits of reason.
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And if the Arabs hadn't used terrorism and forceful evictions of millions of Jews from their lands we wouldn't be at this point either. Or did you happen to forget about the pogoms in the middle east committed by them?
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Now how about being a gracious winner and stop oppressing the Palestinians in real life?
Why don't stop being ignorant of the fact that Hamas' leaders have made it clear that they want Israel destroyed and all ethnic Jews eliminated?
What does that have to do with anything, aside from muddying the issues? Hamas says mean things. Palestinians voted for them. Hamas attacked Israel. That doesn't mean that Israel isn't oppressing Palestinians, nor does it mean they would deserve anything Israel decides to do with them.
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Well, there are only two problems with that theory. One is that the attack on Israel isn't a small operation with a few homegrown rockets. These are sophisticated missiles supplied by Iran that have been bought, moved hundreds of miles, smuggled through tunnels, and fired by trained terrorists. In order to this, the Mossad would have to be superhuman.
The 2nd problem is that there just isn't any reason for Israel to do this. It's not like they are going to permanent occupy Gaza, they gave that up years a
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Hmm, you mean, it'd be like what the Arabs (and Europeans) have done to the Jews for millenia?
Oh, have you ever researched how many Jews were expelled from Egypt, Syria, and elsewhere? Mind you, these were Jewish residents who had lineages in those nations for thousands of years.
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Dude,
Murdering Jews is enshrined in the Hamas charter in writing. The Fatah political headquarters prominently displays a large map of Palestine with no Isreal in the picture with a caption promising this is the dream. And they have never hidden the fact that their goal is the total removal of Isreal. If Isreal withdrew to the 67 borders and gave the Arabs everything they are asking the next day you would hear the Arabs pronouncing that they have scored a great victory on their way to removing Isreal. They
Re:Congratulations Israel (Score:4, Informative)
NicBenjamin writes:
Hey Dude, check it out! It's right here in the Hamas Charter:
For our struggle against the Jews is extremely wide-ranging and grave, so much so that it will need all the loyal efforts we can wield, to be followed by further steps and reinforced by successive battalions from the multifarious Arab and Islamic world, until the enemies are defeated and Allahâ(TM)s victory prevails
nevertheless, the Hamas has been looking forward to implement Allahâ(TM)s promise whatever time it might take. The prophet, prayer and peace be upon him, said: The time will not come until Muslims will fight the Jews (and kill them); until the Jews hide behind rocks and trees, which will cry: O Muslim! there is a Jew hiding behind me, come on and kill him! This will not apply to the Gharqad, which is a Jewish tree (cited by Bukhari and Muslim).
Pretty cool, huh Dude?
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Dude,
It's anti-Semitic, but it's clear they intend no operations outside of the Islamic Waqf of Palestine.
The key bit is actually the part you quoted. Jews will be fought unless they are "behind the Gharqad tree," and "victory prevails." If you intend to kill all Jews everywhere you don't include an out like the Gharqad tree in your metaphor. It's a metaphor for Jews knowing their proper place, behind the Gharqad tree ie: not opposing Hamas.
In their objectives section they make clear their objective is an
Re:Congratulations Israel (Score:4, Interesting)
Yo Dude,
There's a PA Mufti who seems to disagree with you; he takes this Gharqad tree business literally (check out the last sentence of his).
http://www.mfa.gov.il/MFA/Terrorism-+Obstacle+to+Peace/Palestinian_incitement/PA_Mufti_encourages_killing_Jews_9-Jan-2012.htm?DisplayMode=print [mfa.gov.il]
So, Dude, how about you ring up Mr. Mufti and 'splain the whole metaphor thing to him, like? Or text him, whatever. And see if he can sync it all up with Hamas so they're on the same page. Kewl. KThx Dude.
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They have been gracious. They've repeated given up terroritory, repeatedly come to the table.
The truth is, you hear 3-4 Israeli's killed, and 10-12 Palestinians. But how many of those Palestinians get up and walk afterwards?
Google "Pallywood"
https://www.google.com/search?q=pallywood&sourceid=ie7&rls=com.microsoft:en-us:IE-SearchBox&ie=&oe= [google.com]
Re:Congratulations Israel (Score:5, Insightful)
The obvious thing would be to get down to the table and talk about it, but guess what, those who are supposed to find a solution for this are none others than the guys who benefit the most from it (Hamas on one side, and the right wing Israelis).
Acting like a bully won't make you look like you'r defending yourself for sure. And no matter how much of a threat those Palestinian missiles are, if each time your countryside gets hit by one, you answer with a couple of air raids and a dozen of children in the "Collateral Damage" list, you sure as hell can't expect the Palestinians (and by extension the rest of the Muslim world) to see as anything else other than a tyrant invader.
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who sends rockets into soverign territory with the SOLE intention of harming ANYONE inside, civilian or otherwise?
People with no hope to better their lot in life other than destroying their oppressors, that's who. If you want to end the violence, you have to offer them a path to peace and propserity.
I thought you were cool GratefulNet.
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its actually never been about land. that's a PR story to make the west more sympathetic to their cause.
all one has to do is read the charter. read their charter! it does not say they want to live in peace with israel. it does not say anything about co-existence.
in fact, its not even about israelis. they go out of their way to call out that *jews* are their enemy.
how can anyone have any - ANY sympathy for their situation when they are unashamed of their genocide dreams?
to be taken seriously, they must f
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As if your response would be any different if it was your family ethnically cleansed from your ancestral homeland by a bunch of immigrants. A bunch of immigrants who shot you whenever they felt like it, bombed you whenever you felt like it, kept what was left of your family under the thumb of apartheid, going so far as to publicly admit to starving you into submission, I'm sorry, "on a diet".
Pull your head out of your ass and stop pretending that Palestinians are bunch of raving anti-Semites without real a
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I seem to remember that there was something called Rome 2000 years ago. Muhammad was born @ 570ad. It was in the 7th century ad when militant Islam spread into the area that was before and is now known as Israel. The Dome on the Rock, built in the latter part of the 7th century, was arrogantly established on the Jewish temple mount. Though, I admit that the islamic palestinians have lived there for multiple generations, there is no need to exagerate their history in a lame
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Alright, I suspect I'm feeding another troll... but I'll risk it anyways.
Where in the Bible do you ever see rape justified, accepted, or encouraged?
Do you understand that at the time the New Testament was written a 'slave' was more of an indentured servant? These people were treated nothing like the slaves we think of from the African/European slave trade. That level of inhuman treatment was never accepted in the Bible, and the laws in Jewish custom regarding treatment of servants / 'slaves' were very len
Re:Israel has nuclear weapons. (Score:4, Insightful)
They won't use them, unless their very survival is at threat.
Leave Israel alone, and they'll leave you alone.
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How do you know that?
How do you know that?
It sure looks like they are as blameworthy as the other side. No one wants to hear it but Israel with the West Bank/Gaza Strip and the USA in Iraq/Afghanistan need to remember how WW2 ended. With the Marshall plan. Anything short of a similar rebuilding program will only lead to what we have now.
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Re:Israel has nuclear weapons. (Score:5, Insightful)
You don't think their population would distance themselves from the crazies for a chance at a good life?
You don't think AC, McDonalds and TVs would pacify them?
I think that sort of easy life is attractive to everyone and only the shitty living conditions they people live in motivates them to behave as they do. They want someone to blame, they want someone to fight because they have nothing else.
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You don't think their population would distance themselves from the crazies for a chance at a good life?
In many of the Middle-Eastern countries, you can only be non-crazy at the cost of your own health, safety, or even life. Being crazy is a mandatory social norm there. Saying that you're not crazy anymore can get you jailed, at the very least.
You don't think AC, McDonalds and TVs would pacify them?
What, you'd combat fire with earthquakes? Brilliant. That's what the world needs...
They want someone else to blame, they want someone else to fight because they have nothing else.
FTFY. They had a serious head start on us as late as around, say, 1400. Pray tell, what did they do to squander it the way they did? But people in general are not exactly famous for being
Re:Israel has nuclear weapons. (Score:5, Insightful)
We are not talking about part of Israel, for better or worse. Not other nations.
How are the things that keep first world nations nice and peaceful fire? Do you really think AC is evil?
These people did nothing to squander a way their lead, they were not even thought of at that time. Most of them were born after the 1948 formation of the current state of Israel. They were born into this situation. You can't see how being born into poverty in an occupied area not even acknowledged as part of the greater State, would lead to this sort of thing?
Understanding on both sides would go a long way towards letting this issue be solved.
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How are the things that keep first world nations nice and peaceful fire? Do you really think AC is evil?
Anonymous Cowards are difficult to disambiguate. McDonalds food is difficult to digest. TV is difficult to destupidify.
These people did nothing to squander a way their lead, they were not even thought of at that time. Most of them were born after the 1948 formation of the current state of Israel.
I am talking about the Middle East as a whole. Israel surely isn't to blame for Saudi Arabia, Iran etc. having dickheads in positions of power.
You can't see how being born into poverty in an occupied area not even acknowledged as part of the greater State, would lead to this sort of thing?
I can see that. They ought to blame their ancestors, who were unwilling to get 80 % of the former BMfP. They wanted it all, they waged multiple wars of aggression to that end, they failed at that and now their lives suck. Well, tough luck, cowboy.
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Yeah right and thus Palestinian Arabs deserve living in an apartheid state
No, they don't. But they can blame the surrounding Arab countries for treating them like pawns in a political game of chess. It's funny how in 1948, the Arab countries 1) claimed that Israelis robbed the Arabs out of their property, consequently 2) expelled all Jews from their lands, 3) stole their (Jewish) property worth billions of 1948 US Dollars and 4) didn't give them to the dispossessed Arabs. Instead they started pointing fingers and saying "Look how poor they are now, Israelis should take care of th
Re:Israel has nuclear weapons. (Score:5, Insightful)
For a long time Islamic civilization was well ahead of the barbarous West. The principle of 'ijtihad' allowed all sorts of interesting questions to be debated and examined. However, the Caliphs at that time in Baghdad perceived this as a threat to their rule and squashed all inquiry by force. That unquestioning of Islam continues to this day, and Muslims also attempt to extend this political decision to Westerners too (eg. the moves in the UN to prohibit Free Speech by not being able to question any religion). It is this suppression of Free Speech and enquiry that allowed the West to leapfrog ahead of the more advanced Islamic cultures.
It is interesting to note that a similar situation occurred with China. China was far ahead of the West but an emperor decided that all the strange things and ideas his fleets were bringing back were a bad idea and China turned inward. Meanwhile, the chaotic factions of the West strove to out-compete each other and made massive progress in all areas (ideological, social, technical, medical, scientific, political).
The ability to question and overturn orthodoxy is incredibly important for progress. This is why Free Speech must be protected. Especially speech that challenges conventional views. Ideas that make 'normal' people uncomfortable should not be suppressed (only overt hate speech should be suppressed, but this is very a narrow area). Progress is not possible without it - so watch out America and Europe, your 'Political Correctness' could well get you eclipsed just as the Muslim and Chinese cultures were at one point. As long as a society has Free Speech and a Free Press then it has a considerable competitive advantage over those that don't. eg. until China opens up its thinking it will *always* lag behind the West in innovation, no matter how much tech it steals; the Muslim world will remain stuck at that point in time in which the Caliph closed free speech as long as violence and coercion are used to prevent new ideas that approach blasphemy.
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Pray tell, what did they do to squander it the way they did?
It's not what did. It's what they failed to do -- progress. They have not developed rational thought and discourse. They had the skill and tools for it, ie the components required, but they didn't put it together to create the whole -- the Renaissance.
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If you're willing to accept "generic fast food restaurant" as a substitute for McDonalds, then they have all of those things in Gaza already.
The population has already worked around Hamas. They've built shopping malls, supermarkets and cafes. They've got infrastructure! It's not exactly New York, but nor is it a prison camp.
But there's a limit to what you can do, as a citizen, when your government consists of rocket-obsessed lunatics intent on fighting a jihad against the Jooooz at any cost. Particularly
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Seen on 4chan:
I rewted jew.com! All your bagel are belong to us!!!1 LOLK
Re:Israel has nuclear weapons. (Score:5, Insightful)
You don't think their population would distance themselves from the crazies for a chance at a good life?
Let's take Iran as an example. Most Iranians would like an excellent life. They defy their government and install satellite dishes and understand what global (secular) civilization has to offer. They would like a piece of that. Unfortunately due to the 'velyat a faqir' the Iranian Government treats its citizens as wards of the state (that is, everyone is treated as if they were an orphan or mentally insane) and the government strictly controls what they can wear, what they can say, where they can do, who they meet. Besides the security services (nb: you never want to go to Evin prison, ever) the government enlists radical thugs called Basiji to brutalize anyone not following the government line. The people of Iran wanted to install democracy in 2009 after fraudulent elections and protested despite the brutality of the Basiji, but the government ruthlessly put down the protests and, shamefully, the West did absolutely nothing to support the large democracy movement. Iran wants to export this Shia-based system worldwide, whether you want it or not.
Now in Gaza the situation is similar, but not exactly the same. Most Palestinian just want a decent life - although they are prepared to forego one in order to destroy Israel (since it is commanded to kill Jews, Christians and unbelievers in many many places in the Qur'an and Hadiths; so they are just being good Muslims and obeying their scriptures; the 'bad' muslims are the one who refuse Allah's commandments to kill unbelievers [fortunately, many muslims are good people and defy their faith in this way]). Hamas used to be buddies with Iran but they fell out over Syria. Hama follows the Sunni branch of Islam so is opposed to the Shia branch of Iran (usually that would mean they would be mortal enemies; but they put this aside temporarily to eliminate Israel before spreading the 'Caliphate' to the rest of the World).
The Israelis are exactly as you describe. They already have McDonalds, TVs and a very very modern society. Their government is influenced by, but not controlled by the crazies (Hasidim) that cause much of the 'settler' issues in the West Bank. Otherwise, Israel is a normal 'Western' society and responds in what most Slashdotters would consider a rational manner to irrational circumstances. That is, people who will make temporary truces but don't recognize the UN resolution that recognizes Israel in the western Palestine region of the former Ottoman Empire (the eastern part is now called 'Jordan' and can be considered the true 'Palestinians'). Note: Palestine has never (yet) been an actual country, it was a Roman name for a region of their empire which has remained as a region/province in additional empires throughout history. Note also the bulk of what are reported by the media as 'Palestinians' actually are relatively recent immigrants from Egypt or Sudan (within a couple of generations). Curiously: when tracing family history back many Israelis have more generations born in Palestine than 'Palestinians' - this is an 'open secret' (eg. Yasser Arafat was actually of Egyptian decent; and Gaza was Egyptian in antiquity before it passed to the Ottoman Empire).
See, this is all pretty complicated. They may want McDonalds and new stuff but there is so much history of the area that just about anyone can make any claim. Only those who are prepared to look forward will make progress (eg. the Israelis) and those who get hung up on history (Hamas & Iran) will resist progress and modernity and instead cling (with force) to obsolescent ideas.
Re:Israel has nuclear weapons. (Score:4, Insightful)
Nearly all of the well known terrorists figureheads have had very good lives. All of the 9/11 hijackers had college degrees. The current head of Al-Qaeda is a surgeon. Osama Bin Laden was a multi-millionaire. Azzam the American was born in Berkly, California, and left for the middle east in his 20's. Anwar al-Awlaki was providing support for known terrorists while living as a citizen of the US. Nidal Malik Hasan was an Army Major when he shouted allahuakbar and shot people up.
Nearly all of them have lived in the US legitimately, as well as numerous parts of Europe. Not only have they had a chance at a good life, they lived a good life.
I somehow doubt AC, McDonalds, and TV's would pacify them.
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No amount of sympathy for the struggles of the Jewish people can eliminate the legitimate grievances of the Palestinian people whose own struggles are very much a direct result of how Israel was founded.
yes, the jews struggled. hard! the whole world was against them and nearly wiped them out. having a homeland ensures some bit of safety that this won't happen again.
now, compare that to the founding of the US where the europeans were NOT 'about to be wiped out' and were certainly not running for their liv
Those Who Forget History ... (Score:5, Interesting)
Oh fuck right off. The Palestinian leaders were acting like arseholes and trying to kill Jews just for being Jewish before the state of Israel even existed [wikipedia.org]. Haj Amin al-Husseini who was the Grand Mufti (religious leader) of the Palestinians (of Jerusalem to be precise) during the 1940s was buddies with notable people like Hitler, Himmler, and anyone who promised to find a gas chamber for every Jew. He actively encouraged the Germans, and worked to dissuade countries from accepting German Jewish refuges forcing them to return to Germany. ALL BEFORE A JEWISH STATE EXISTED, mother fucker. So don't try to tell me that the Jews started anything.
The Jews were the ones who promised no change in personal property or land or status would take place when Israel was formed, that the status quo shouldn't change, meanwhile their leader(s) and other Arab countries told the Palestinians to get out of the way and to go to the refugee camps while they "pushed the Jews into the sea" with their anti Semitic Arab brotherhood. Now they're sore losers and even the other Arab countries around there won't let them into their own countries because they have so many trouble makers.
Don't you know Egypt has a big fucking wall set up between them and Palestine too? And when the Palestinians knocked part of it down, the Egyptian army pushed them back in a repaired it. Notice the Muslim Brotherhood haven't opened up the border with Gaza any more than Israel since they were elected?
So just shut the fuck up until you learn to think on your own instead of running with the crowd in their nouveau cause du jour which they know nothing about, but will surely fuck some innocent people over to make themselves feel like they have a cause.
I don't give a rat's ass what anyone is. But dirt bags who hide in civilian neighbourhoods and continually fire rockets into other civilian neighbourhoods while screaming how they are so just and hard done by deserve what they get. And the people who don't turn them in deserve it too. You ever think that if these shit bags had ever once tried to be civil there wouldn't be any war there. You know there are a lot of Arabs who live in Israel, vote and even sit in parliament. Jews in the Arab countries have to keep their heads down and not 'rise above themselves'. Get a real education on the subject.
Re:Israel has nuclear weapons. (Score:5, Informative)
The fact is they have had a nuclear capability for a while and have proven they are not trigger happy and they are capable of securing the nuclear weapons. Check out a map and see just how small a country it is. Any nuclear attack on Gaza or the West Bank would be the equivalent of nuking themselves.
They did use the threat of nuclear retaliation in 1973 but that was a ruse to get Nixon to take his head out of his ass and re-supply the IDF. They purposely let leak through unencrypted radio transmissions that they were activating their Samson plan which was the code for arming their nukes on their F-4's and Jericho missiles. Not that they really needed to do so since they had already pushed the Syrians and Egyptians back into their own countries. Nixon didn't want to get involved becuase at the time the Soviets were heavily invested with the Egyptians and Syrians and he was afraid of escalating the problem.
The 73 war is probably the most humiliating loss the Arab countries have suffered in all their conflicts with Isreal. The Arabs had total surprise, overwhelming numerical advantages, Soviet wire guided anti-tank missiles, night vision scopes with IR targeting in their tanks (again thanks to the Soviets), and advanced first line SAM systems once again courtesy of the Soviets. They also came up with an ingenious way of tackling the gigantic sand berms using water cannons so their tanks could advance after crossing the canal. Too bad the Israelis held off 1000+ tanks off in the Golan Heights for 24 hours using only 37 Israeli tanks because of very poor tactical leadership on the Syrian side. They held long enough for reinforcements to arrive using the landscape, superb shoot and re-position tank tactics, and main gun range superiority. The Egyptians advanced without re-positioning their SAM coverage and thus became vulnerable to air attacks and they some how allowed the Israelis to float a temporary bridge across the canal and flank then en-circle the Egyptian army in the Sinai. I can only assume someone on the Egyptian side fell asleep during the Israeli crossing. The funny thing is the school books in Egypt make it sound like Egypt won that war when they clearly didn't.
If there is any Marshall plan in the middle east it should be left entirely to the Arab league not any western countries. The Arab countries have booted the Palestinians out of their countries and prohibited migration since day 1. They had pretty good reasons seeing as how the Palestinians in Jordan initiated a coup to remove the government as soon as they got there. The Palestinians were cheerleaders for Saddam Hussein's invasion of Kuwait and after that war Kuwait evicted close to 100,000 Palestinians out of the country. Isreal is not and never has been the sole responsible party for palestinian suffering. It started with the inept British making promises to anyone who would listen to prop up their empire after WW1 and during WW2, Egypt abandon Egyptian citizens in the area now known as Gaza during their retreat in 67, and Jordan did the same thing resulting in the West Bank enclave.
The Iraqis and Afghan's have already had and wasted their Marshall Plan. In both cases the US and others removed the governments that were victimizing their own citizens and gave them a chance to rebuild their country in relative safety and they pissed it all away with in-fighting, bureaucratic corruption, and killing those trying to give them at least a fighting chance to build a better country. If the Japanese were able to swallow their pride and work with the US after WW2 I don't see how others could not do the same. Because this whole mess is more about Arab wounded pride than any land or religious disputes.
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I am not missing a step you are assuming I am not advocating such a solution.
Re:Israel has nuclear weapons. (Score:5, Insightful)
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And those sending the rockets claim they are responding to 60 years of oppression and on and on it goes.
You are blaming only the most recent actions for what is really a much longer term issue.
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Re:Israel has nuclear weapons. (Score:5, Insightful)
They could be. All they need to do acknowledge that Israel is a legitimate nation. But you know, Hamas won't do that. They want to abolish Israel. Kind of hard for Israel to leave alone people who want to destroy it.
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Absolutely true.
Now knowing that bombing them or rolling tanks through their cities is not winning "Hearts and Minds" how is that goal to be achieved?
Re:Israel has nuclear weapons. (Score:5, Insightful)
Of course if Israel offered Abbas everything on the Jordanian side of the Green Line (including Jerusalem), Abbas'd be able to crush Hamas like a bug. But Israel's internal politics mean that anyone who proposes that, or anything remotely like that, gets crushed in the next election.
In other words Israel isn't asking for a simple recognition of it's right to exist, it's asking for recognition of it's conquest of East Jerusalem (plus probably some more territory). That's a whole different kettle of fish.
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Well, Hamas doesn't acknowledge Israel's right to exist on any borders, and I'm not sure Abbas could "crush" Hamas. He didn't do so well the last time the two clashed.
If he had Tanks, and the Israelis were willing to let him cross the Negev, Hamas would not be able to hold Gaza. If he had a permanent peace deal with Israel that included the return of Jerusalem Jordan/Egypt/etc. would give him all the tanks he could possibly want.
Most of the Palestinian people know academically that a peace deal won't get them anything but symbolic BS in East Jerusalem, so if Abbas showed up with a deal that includes owning the whole damn place they will love him. Which means that he'd be
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You mean perhaps Egypt leaving Israel alone, and Israel withdrawing from Sinai, and Israel/Egypt enjoying decades of being 'left alone'? The relationship has been cold and tense at times, but definitely 'left alone'.
You claim that Israel, having not committing an unprovoked attacked on one specific country (Egypt, which i don't know is true), is proof that Israel wants to leave everyone alone.
Thats like saying there is one kid the school bully hasnt beat up, so that is proof he isnt a bully.
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You know, if the Middle East suddenly magically disappeared, I wouldn't give a damn. Hell, I'd probably celebrate. No more phantasmagoric indoctrination for future generations? Yay for that!
But I'd keep Israel. They do useful stuff, such as new Intel microarchitectures, and ICQ, and PHP...OK, scratch the last two. But at least they export tangibly beneficial stuff and not armies of loonies.
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I'd be happy getting rid of Israel just so we could get back to putting our own countries interests first.
and I thought you were cool, hatta.... ;(
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Israel is a Friend to the United States
What exactly has Israel ever done for the United States? They've stolen military secrets and threatened to sell them to the Russians. They've involved us in conflicts across the world that provide us no benefit whatsoever. And their oppression of the Palestinians has spurned terrorists on to attack the US.
And what do we get for this? They now threaten to attack Iran and fuck with the international oil trade. They bomb Gaza relentlessly even after the US paid for their Iron Dome defense system that has large
Re:Free Fucking Tibet... (Score:4, Informative)
I realize this will hold little / no value for most of the /. readership, as polls I've seen here come back showing overwhelmingly agnostic / atheist beliefs amongst the local populous, but in Christian and Jewish tradition the area of nation of Israel was given to them by God. They have been driven out of the area a few times in history, and have always managed to return eventually. They are also one of the most persecuted people groups on the planet (historically) that has managed to survive, and there is an awful lot of conflict surrounding them and that region.
The reason they are there now is that the British Empire controlled that region at the close of World War II, and gave it to the surviving Jewish people who had lived through the horrors of the Holocaust (and others from around the world). The Israelis don't have a problem living in peace with the Palestinians, and even ceded land to them (which is the Gaza area, where the current issues are happening). However, the leadership that those same Palestinians elected have it in their very charter that all Jews (not just Israeli citizens, but those of Jewish heritage) should be wiped out. Then those same people launch missiles over the border, and yet when Israel responds to defend themselves you complain?
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Now I see the OP has a -1 rating on his comment... I just fed a troll, didn't I? :(
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Why is it not a possiblity for you that, which by the way has been proven over and over again, that RT -- the mouth of the Russian government and outgrowth of TAAS -- the media arm of the Soviet Union is simply lying. Have you ever been to their website? It is a conspiracy theorists mouthpiece. Anti-American, and anti-west in general. Pan-Arabist at times, such as now.
In short -- liars.