Outsourcing Unit To Be Set Up In Indian Jail 249
littlekorea writes "Indian outsourcing firm Radiant Info Systems has found yet another way to lower wages — hiring data entry clerks from a local prison. Some 200 inmates will be paid $2.20 a day to handle manual data entry tasks for Radiant's BPO deals in a pilot for the scheme. Radiant execs told the BBC that the deal will provide skills to inmates when they are released from prison. No doubt they would also be due for a pay raise." They're going to need to cut wages if they want to be competitive with the 100,000 US prisoners who work for 25 cents an hour.
Competitive... (Score:4, Informative)
$.25 an hour x 8 hours a day=$2 a day
Seems fairly competitive to me...
Re:Competitive... (Score:4, Funny)
$.25 an hour x 8 hours a day=$2 a day ... Seems fairly competitive to me...
I wonder if they can get "fired" for screwing up their data entry, or if they just get moved from the "entering banking data" group to the "entering climate change data" group?
Re:Competitive... (Score:5, Insightful)
FTFA:
Poster asks:
If they do it right, they'll be able to BUY their way out of jail.
People will be breaking INTO jail to better do identity theft.
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Identity theft is only a real problem in civilized places.
More seriously, i wonder how many of the prison inmates here in india are able to speak english. If people who went to english schools and have had 'accent-training' programs and what not speak so horribly, how can petty prisoners be expected to be fluent?
they can bust them down to janitor work or food se (Score:2)
they can bust them down to janitor work or food services.
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sensitive data? (Score:3, Insightful)
Are they going to be careful about what kind of data they would be sharing with these inmates? Are there going to be restrictions in place to stop them from copying this data?
Will they be genuinely interested in what the weather is like where I am?
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RTFA: banking information. What could possibly go wrong?
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RTFA: banking information. What could possibly go wrong?
I dunno ... maybe they enter a "." instead of a "," (or visa versa depending on whether they're entering US or European numeric data).
... what if it was one of them who screwed up the data that caused the dip in the US stock market last week?
Waaaaaaait a minute
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Not that I think they'd bother doing it right. I'm just saying it could be possible. Also, not all data entry is really sensitive data.
25 cents? Not in the feds... (Score:5, Informative)
I just came home from a lovely four year stay at a fed prison. Yes, you can eventually make $.25 an hour, but you have to work up to that.
See federal (BOP) pay scales [justice.gov] here.
FPI (UNICOR [unicor.gov]) is the prison industries. Read: slave labor for government profit. At the facility I was at there was a data processing factory, fixing bad OCR scans by entering Postscript commands.
However, anyone with any computer skills was forbidden from working there, so my job was Captain's Crew...cleaning the sidealks for half hour every day. Nice use of my MCSE, no?
Re:25 cents? Not in the feds... (Score:5, Insightful)
Prison. Where they teach you that honest hard labour gets you next to nothing.
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Re:25 cents? Not in the feds... (Score:5, Informative)
Only from people who actually believe what they see on TV. Prison can be very violent, but that stupid "don't bend over for the soap" stuff doesn't happen. In fact, even suggesting it is a good way to get shanked.
CSI, Law and Order, Prison Break, etc are utter propaganda.
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Only from people who actually believe what they see on TV. Prison can be very violent, but that stupid "don't bend over for the soap" stuff doesn't happen.
That may be because you were in Federal Prison. My friends dad was a big wig in the DOJ for New Jersey and he told me that the Federal Prison system is far better then the other ones (Not sure what it would be referred to, state prison?).
Of course, YMMV. Correct me if I am wrong or not, droopus.
Absolutely true. State prisons are MUCH worse. After all, the murderers and rapists go to state, not feds.
I spent a few weeks in a state holdover before my case went federal and I feared for my life every day.
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Re:25 cents? Not in the feds... (Score:5, Insightful)
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Re:25 cents? Not in the feds... (Score:5, Funny)
Nice use of my MCSE, no?
Perhaps they had sufficient skill and experience on-staff to handle any Solitaire and Minesweeper issues that came up.
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Nice use of my MCSE, no?
Maybe you should have kept your nose clean and OUT OF FEDERAK PRISON? Mmmm?
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Maybe he was one of the x% wrongfully imprisoned.
(x goes from 0.01 to 0.6 depending on who you ask)
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(x goes from 0.01 to 0.6 depending on who you ask)
Excuse me, I think you forgot the x = 100 case, i.e. where we survey the prison population.
Re:25 cents? Not in the feds... (Score:5, Informative)
Uh huh. And everyone that ends up in prison:
A) Deserves fully to be there, and
B) Was treated fairly and justly by the US Justice system.
No disrespect intended at all, but you have much to learn. I hope your lesson isn't as difficult as mine was. The justice system in this country is insane and grossly unfair.
The US has 3% of the world's population and 25% of it's prison population. Numerically and per capita, we have the highest prison population on the planet...and that includes China..a tougher regime that is three times our size.
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Surely you're not interested in telling your entire story... but you did open the door, so I'll ask: was your conviction related to technology/IT?
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No, it wasn't. Nor was it drug dealing, terrorism, sedition, rape, murder, bank robbery, kidnapping, pedophilia, or anything that might be considered a crime against the united states.
Mail me at my nym at gmail and I'll discuss. B)
plenty of crimes aren't crimes (Score:2, Interesting)
such as prison for marijuana use: that's stupid
however, i'm kind of sick of this tired line: "The US has 3% of the world's population and 25% of it's prison population. Numerically and per capita, we have the highest prison population on the planet"
the reason i'm sick of this line is that other countries aren't going "oh my gosh, what is wrong with the usa! so many people are in prison there!"
what those other people in other countries are saying is "man i'm thick of these thieves and murderers running aroun
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the reason i'm sick of this line is that other countries aren't going "oh my gosh, what is wrong with the usa! so many people are in prison there!"
yes we are.
what those other people in other countries are saying is "man i'm thick of these thieves and murderers running around free. we need to crack down in these elements ruining our society"
no we're not.
in other words, other countries aren't bemoaning our high prison rates, they're bemoaning the thieves getting away scott free in their own country.
no we're not.
other people in other countries are actually envying the usa's high incarceration rate
no we're not.
cheers from europe.
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The tone and substance of your reply tacitly admits that you deserved to be there (even if not 'fully').
So yeah, the GP is right - if you didn't want to go to prison, you shouldn't have done whatever it was that put you there. And when you did go there, you should have expected to be treated as a prisoner not as something 'special' because you have a dime-a-dozen MCSE.
Re:Here's the world's smallest violin... (Score:4, Insightful)
LOL.."peddling pot" does not get you into the feds unless you have 50,000 pounds of it.
You seem to be yet another person that assumes what you learn from your tv education is immutable truth. Once again...3% of the world's population, 25% of its prison inmates. Do you not understand this? Do you really think the US is a nation of felons?
I'm not looking for, or interested in your, or anyone else's fucking sympathy. I'm trying to tell you to wake up, and watch out for yourself.
Re:Here's the world's smallest violin... (Score:5, Insightful)
Intentionally taking out of context and twisting your words here:
Once again...3% of the world's population, 25% of its prison inmates. Do you not understand this? Do you really think the US is a nation of felons?
Well since the numbers seem to bear that out, yes. Obviously since you are one too I will believe what you say about that and take it as truth ;)
though I always thought Australia was the nation of felons...
Back in reality, yes our system is fscked up like no other. I really wish for three things:
1) put back the support structure (mental health, training, etc.) that we used to have in prisons before privatization.
2) put the prison system back under federal control (not outsourced to private companies)
3) a pony.
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Sounds like you need to get out of that city man.
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Horseshit. Your very first post was whining for sympathy because they made you work rather than giving you a cushy job because of your MCSE.
Really? Where did I "whine?" I only mentioned the BOP did not consider skills when assigning jobs. Actually, I had no interest in working for UNICOR. I worked less than 5 minutes a day for my $5.25 a month. UNICOR slaves work 6 - 8 hour days for their $.40 an hour. My point was almost NO ONE really works in a fed prison. Learn to read, hmm?
And, FTR, I haven't used any knowledge from my MCSE in many, many years. Rather poi
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If he had an MCSE, then he didn't need to peddle pot, or whatever. Sure, if you are good at peddling pot and other drugs, you can make a LOT more money than the top MCSEs can ever dream of. But that's certainly not making use of an MCSE.
Once you are untrusted ... and being a felon makes one untrusted ... then you can't be trusted around anything you might know how to manipulate for your own benefit. And an MCSE just shouts "I know how to manipulate computers". IMHO, any felon should be stripped of their
Because punishment should never stop (Score:5, Insightful)
IMHO, any felon should be stripped of their MCSE, or any other IT or engineering certification, and not allowed to get another for at least 10 years after release ... 10 years of scraping sidewalks on the outside!
And you'll ensure that people who offend will go on to reoffend, and your precious tax dollars will go to keeping them locked up and and a net cost to everyone (instead of using that MCSE to stay out of jail, pay taxes and make the world a better place).
The single worst thing you can do to encourage someone to go straight is to remove hope that they can improve their lot. Hey, if you just got out and your lot was to scrape sidewalks while also dealing with the stress of caring for yourself with no hope of improving things, why the hell not reoffend. If you don't get away with it, your job doesn't suck any less and you don't have to worry about rent, and your life is already ruined, so fuck it.
It boggles the mind that some folks are so completely stupid about things like this the minute the word 'criminal' is uttered. And that's before we get to all of the inequities of our criminal justice system and the institutionalized perverse incentives _not_ having to do with Skapare's apparent personal interest in wasting human capital, increasing misery and wasting their tax money in order to keep people from earning an honest living.
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But it's more fun to get all angsty and put other people down! We feel better about ourselves! We have a purpose! :'(
But if we think things through logically, it's like our lives are meaningless
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The right to conjugal visits only guarantees you that your partner can visit for that purpose, it doesn't actually guarantee you a partner...
Re:25 cents? Not in the feds... (Score:4, Informative)
Safe (Score:4, Funny)
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-what a great idea-
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Exactly! ... as long as each prisoner has one of those PHBs overlooking them at all times, just like in the picture.
Slavery in America Today (Score:3, Insightful)
And India, Too! We can't leave a slave-gap open, with the Reds in China!
My Dear God. The world is back into nightmares decried by Dickens and Sinclair Lewis. If you haven't read these, I would suggest doing so. In fact, if you have, a refresh is in order.
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No.
Then, I would be still be free to decry the creation of "laws" to criminalize a significant percentage of the population, while creating private profit incentives for incarceration - and the requisite prioritization of public monies for penitentiary over school house.
I have Dickens, you have Rand. You lose.
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Re:Slavery in America Today (Score:4, Funny)
Customer: I see some irregular activity on my account and I'd like to talk to someone about it.
Raj: I apologize for the inconvenience. Am I correct to understand that you would like to talk to someone about the irregular activity on your account?
Customer: Um, yes. Yes I would. That's what I said.
Raj: Am I correct to understand that that is what you said?
Customer: Yes! Just get someone who can explain these large wire transfers!
Raj (hand over the receiver): Who handles large wire transfers?
Dani: I do!
Raj: One moment please. I'll transfer you to Dani. He handles large wire transfers
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Back? The world never left, my friend.
scary thought (Score:5, Insightful)
Congressman: can do!
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In India what we would consider jaywalking is known as "crossing the street". So no, your nightmare scenario would never happen. Otherwise everyone would be in jail.
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Re:scary thought (Score:5, Informative)
Radiant: we're a little short on staff -- think you could raise the penalty for jaywalking?
Congressman: can do!
This exact sort of thing is already happening in the U.S. except rather than keeping people in prison to make them work, the prison lobby wants to keep people in prison for the sake of needing to build more prisons. We've got both the prisons' investors and prison guard unions [talkleft.com] constantly lobbying for harsher punishments for lesser offenses. It's a scary to think that it's profitable for anyone to lock people up and throw away the key...
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Re:scary thought (Score:5, Interesting)
All perfectly legal and above board.
These days, of course, we have the private, for-profit prison, a truly brilliant institution. The outfits that run these are very reliable "law-and-order" lobbyists, and there was even a case a while back where they were paying a judge a per-inmate kickback for, shall we say, "referrals"...
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I drove through South Carolina recently and noticed signs that stated the penalty for speeding in a work zone was $200 and 30 days [ghsa.org]. On the surface, you might think that's reasonable to keep road workers safe.
But there are long stretches of highway marked as work zones with NO sign of workers, equipment, or construction. Nothing. And state law says workers do not need to be present. These were for all intents and purposes speed zones where getting caught g
They just want the $75 - $200 jail costs more then (Score:2)
They just want the $75 - $200 jail costs more then that to lock some up for 30 days.
Re:They just want the $75 - $200 jail costs more t (Score:2)
Trying to remain "competitive" I guess... (Score:3, Insightful)
I understand their desire to remain relevant and competitive in the out-sourcing marketplace, but dang man, enough is enough.
Seriously. This will probably sound racist as hell, but whatever, I don't care. I'm sick to death of calling into some company for support and struggling mightily to understand the person on the other end. Sick of it. It does not do these companies any good at all to have such unpleasant customer service experiences.
I realize that English is not these folks primary language, and for it being ESL for them, they do a good job. But when I call in for support to a company "based in the US", damnit, I expect to hear a US voice.
Again, call me racist, whatever you want. I really don't give a shit at this point, I'm frigging sick of it. For companies that outsource to these places to "lower costs", you're also lowering profit, due to craptastic customer service, lack of caring, and a strict adherence to "following the script".
Re:Trying to remain "competitive" I guess... (Score:5, Interesting)
I'm sick to death of calling into some company for support and struggling mightily to understand the person on the other end.
I realize that English is not these folks primary language, and for it being ESL for them, they do a good job. But when I call in for support to a company "based in the US", damnit, I expect to hear a US voice.
Except that a "US voice" doesn't necessarily help.
I've called technical support lines and gotten someone with an impossibly thick southern drawl before. At least that's what I assume it was. Maybe they were drunk. Regardless, it was clear that they were from the southern US, but I couldn't understand half of what they were saying.
Why is a clear speaking voice not a requirement for these positions?
I don't care where you're located geographically, as long as you can speak clearly.
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>
I've called technical support lines and gotten someone with an impossibly thick southern drawl before. At least that's what I assume it was. Maybe they were drunk.%
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At one point I was driving a semi to make ends meet
while the IT scene was recovering (circa 2002/03 ish).
I stopped at some fast food joint in Minnesota. It took
me a while to realize that the lady behind the counter
actually was speaking English. She couldn't understand me
either.
Indeed.
I'm from Minnesota originally... We do speak a bit differently there, especially the older folks who still have a strong Scandinavian accent. And I've got family from various parts of Kentucky.
Family gatherings can be fun.
what is your accent? (Score:2)
I've never met a southerner who couldn't understand me, because they all watch television.
(me- California beach raised-now living on the other coast)
I've met many throughout the south, some of whom I could not comprehend because of their accent.
and I think only off the really beaten path down swamp roads in LA once did I ever meet someone who didn't comprehend me better than I did them... *(and I had no French to use)*
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and be sure to write a letter to the offending company the reason that you will not do repeat business with them.
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Do you have the numbers to back that up?
I suspect that the truth is that it actually DOES increase profit, in most cases. So what if customers are pissed off? What are they going to do, switch over to another service provider that also sends customer support offshore? The truth, I believe, is that lots of people m
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Then why bother with customer service at all?
Or have the entire thing automated.
When you call Verizon now, to tell them you have no dial-tone (using my cell phone to tell them my landline is down), you're shuttled through a completely automated system that even "checks your line" for you. Whether it actually does *anything* or not for real isn't the issue, but it gives the illusion of customer service.
eBay, for example has NO customer service, and yet, they are the largest company in their category, proof t
Pay-scales, cost-scales (Score:2)
Still No Debtor's Prison (Score:4, Insightful)
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I RTFA on prison work and I read the high mod posts. Yours is the only one I saw that mentioned in some way depressed US living standards as a result of the prison labor. This slave labor stuff was getting a revival in the 1970's and some unions would try to raise a fuss. And in the 1970's, SEUI was a reformist union! The general point is that if you do not have some basic principles you really pay attention to, and a lot of guts, you end up toast. You just lose and lose until nothing is left. This
US Prisons (Score:3, Informative)
Let's see how they rank (Score:2, Funny)
Let's see $2.20 a day * 260 days a year (although I doubt they give them too many days off)
= $572 bucks a year
Let's plug it in The Global Rich list....
http://www.globalrichlist.com/ [globalrichlist.com]
= 4,429,714,286
You are the 4,429,714,286 richest person in the world!
You're in the TOP 73.82% richest people in the world!
Oh great... (Score:2)
Two countries, *united* by a common language (Score:2)
It isn't often that you see an article where the British and US usages of "scheme" are BOTH correct.
IT + Prison? (Score:5, Funny)
Watch for India's prison population to grow! (Score:2)
Slave labor, just like the good old USofA!
Giving prisoners sensitive information? (Score:2)
So we have some prisoners and we want them to get some skills for when they leave prison.
Make them work?
Great idea!
Doing data entry?
Ok, I guess since they'll be low paid.
For banks?
Wait a second... For banks? So we'll have prisoners handling massive amounts of banking data?!!! Something tells me this won't end well. For the banking customers, that is. It might end very well for the prisoners (some side cash "earned") and Radiant (cut costs means bonuses for management).
What could possibly go wrong? (Score:2)
Inmates? (Score:2)
The outsourcing centre will handle banking information 24 hours a day using a shift system
So, let me get this straight. They're knowingly, willfully giving my banking information to known, convicted criminals for processing... This can only end well.
US prisoners (Score:2)
The future of salvery (Score:2)
Re:Skills... (Score:5, Insightful)
The feds have NO interest whatsoever in providing skill training, no matter what their propaganda tells you. At the FCI where I was, inmates typically slept till lunch, signed false pay sheets claiming 40 hours worked. They thought they were getting over, but it's actualy the feds, who can provide "proof" of "gainfully employed inmates."
But it's a scam. The BOP/DOJ has a vested interest in the 75% recidivism rate...it keeps the beds full and the $30,000 a year per inmate flowing nicely. Most inmates sleep till lunch, play basketball or softball in the afternoon, and watch TV and gamble all night.
Look, my unit had nine televisions (big flat screens, full cable, Netflix movies twice a week) and four toilets for 150 guys. Total in the facility? 1,800 inmates in regular population housed in 6 units, with a total of 48 toilets and 108 televisions. What's wrong with this picture?
Skills training my ass. Try getting a job with nothing on your resume but "data entry and basic Office." And that's for the tech/UNICOR jobs! It's like a health club..once they have you, they want you to keep coming back. Again and again. No skills? You're probably going to reoffend.
Step 3: Profit!
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Look, my unit had nine televisions (big flat screens, full cable, Netflix movies twice a week) and four toilets for 150 guys. Total in the facility? 1,800 inmates in regular population housed in 6 units, with a total of 48 toilets and 108 televisions. What's wrong with this picture?
Sounds like they had more than 2 TV's displaying each toilet to me. That's not exactly HBO (well, it is if you count 'Oz').
Re:Skills... (Score:4, Insightful)
Re:Skills...and a sat image of FCI Elkton! (Score:3, Informative)
Oh, before anyone comments on the math:
Each unit (building) was made up of two sub-units. Four toilets per sub-unit, 8 per unit.
Wanna see the place? [bing.com]
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*Sigh*
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Re:Skills... (Score:5, Insightful)
The feds have NO interest whatsoever in providing skill training, no matter what their propaganda tells you. At the FCI where I was, inmates typically slept till lunch, signed false pay sheets claiming 40 hours worked. They thought they were getting over, but it's actualy the feds, who can provide "proof" of "gainfully employed inmates."
But it's a scam. The BOP/DOJ has a vested interest in the 75% recidivism rate...it keeps the beds full and the $30,000 a year per inmate flowing nicely. Most inmates sleep till lunch, play basketball or softball in the afternoon, and watch TV and gamble all night.
Look, my unit had nine televisions (big flat screens, full cable, Netflix movies twice a week) and four toilets for 150 guys. Total in the facility? 1,800 inmates in regular population housed in 6 units, with a total of 48 toilets and 108 televisions. What's wrong with this picture?
Skills training my ass. Try getting a job with nothing on your resume but "data entry and basic Office." And that's for the tech/UNICOR jobs! It's like a health club..once they have you, they want you to keep coming back. Again and again. No skills? You're probably going to reoffend.
Step 3: Profit!
That's what happens when state and federal governments contract out such a basic thing as their prison systems. To the government and government-run prisons, prisoners are nothing but an expense so the fewer, the better. To the private companies, each prisoner represents profit so the more the merrier.
Certainly I can understand the government buying items on the open market such as automobiles, ships, airplanes, office stationery, electricity, etc. I hardly expect them to mine their own ore, smelt it, forge it, and make their own products, to run their own paper mills, or maintain their own electrical grids. Yet a line does need to be drawn someplace because things like prisons are rightly an unwanted expense. I propose that the government can freely purchase any needed goods (including units of energy like kilowatt-hours) but must perform all services itself, carried out by individuals who are government employees.
No one should have a vested interest in a high recidivism rate, particularly not when large sums of money are involved. It does not serve society's interests. Further, I bet they're fine with high recidivism until a crime happens to them. Any such entity with vested interests like this is a parasite that feeds off the failing of others. These parasites are state-sponsored.
Re:Skills... (Score:4, Insightful)
No one should have a vested interest in a high recidivism rate, particularly not when large sums of money are involved. It does not serve society's interests. Further, I bet they're fine with high recidivism until a crime happens to them. Any such entity with vested interests like this is a parasite that feeds off the failing of others. These parasites are state-sponsored.
If the government was interested in a low recidivism rate, they would reward facilities for it. Look at averages for rates of return, and reward facilities that turn out better than that. As an example, if the average for a certain type of criminal is to have a 50% recidivism rate within 5 years, track the ex-prisoners, and give an actual cash award to the prison if they average 40% over 6 years. This opens the whole system back up to the private sector to resolve.
There would also be room in this environment for penalties for significantly worse than average results, where "significantly worse" is something I'm not defining here. There would be other changes likely also required (such as the inability to turn down a prisoner for anything other than overcrowding issues, so they don't bias their population only with those they think won't reoffend in the first place). I'm sure that if lowering the recidivism rate was really on any elected official's radar, it could be solved without socialising the industry.
There are some commons that I do think the government should not privatise. I also think that conflicts of interest need to be resolved (and, in the public sphere, I would generally also like to see appearances of conflicts of interest to be eliminated as well). However, I prefer to go for solutions with the smallest amount of delta to the status quo. Some people call that "conservative" (with a small "c"). I prefer to call it "the scientific method" - by reducing the delta to as small as possible to effect the change, we can be sure as to what we can attribute the change to, so others can replicate that success, or not duplicate that failure. Grand social experiments, I'm not so fond of. And, yes, it can be argued that privatising the prison industry was a grand social experiment. I wouldn't disagree. However, that's where the Americans are at the moment, so that's where you have to work from.
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Inmates watching TV all day is better then them pl (Score:2)
Inmates watching TV all day is better then them planing to brake out / making shanks.
and there was something about that in time magazine.
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I sort of agree with this. The purpose of prison is to rehabilitate and keep dangerous people locked away from the rest of society. Televisions and books are pretty minor expenses to keep them pacified.
Now, unlike free society, whatever they got to watch would be censored all to hell and back if I had a say in it (things like Prison Break and The Anarchist's Cookbook would be off the menu for sure), but I'd wager that most wouldn't mind having access to watch something like PBS, the History Channel, TLC,
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(things like Prison Break and The Anarchist's Cookbook would be off the menu for sure)
Maybe the second one, but really, Prison Break. Do you really think that escape plan would work in real life?
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Not at all (well I guess not. I've never even watched it). I just don't think it's a good subject matter for them to be watching. Whatever they decide to do, they'll likely get caught if they try to break out. In that regard, regardless of feasibility, you won't want anything that might embolden them to TRY breaking out in the first place.
No. (Score:2)
> The feds have NO interest whatsoever in providing skill training, no matter what their propaganda tells you. At the FCI where I was, inmates typically slept till lunch, signed false pay sheets claiming 40 hours worked. They thought they were getting over, but it's actualy the feds, who can provide "proof" of "gainfully employed inmates."
> But it's a scam. The BOP/DOJ has a vested interest in the 75% recidivism rate..
It's used as a scam. That doesn't mean it *is* a scam. If justice knew how to lowe
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Lowering the recidivism rate is easy, it's just not politically viable. See, any politician who wants to put ex-cons in community colleges, spend money on drug treatment, and have job placement programs, and lowering or eliminating sentencing for non-violent drug offenses is both fiscally irresponsible and more importantly SOFT ON CRIME.
To the average voter, every penny spent on rehabilitating prisoners while there's a pot hole on my street is a penny wasted, but every dollar spent on incarcerating degener