Recession Pushes More Workers To Steal Data 280
An anonymous reader writes to share the findings of a recent transatlantic survey which suggests that the recession is pushing workers to be a little bit more accommodating when it comes to sharing, viewing, or stealing sensitive information from the company they work(ed) for. "Pilfering data has become endemic in our culture as 85% of people admit they know it's illegal to download corporate information from their employer but almost half couldn't stop themselves taking it with them with the majority admitting it could be useful in the future! [...] The survey entitled 'the global recession and its effect on work ethics,' carried out for a second year by Cyber-Ark – found that almost half of the respondents 48% admit that if they were fired tomorrow they would take company information with them and 39% of people would download company/competitive information if they got wind that their job was at risk. Additionally a quarter of workers said that the recession has meant that they feel less loyal towards their employer."
No $10 million, no deal (Score:4, Interesting)
Unless I make enough money to retire debt free, no deal.
Most people will get caught and lose their jobs for tiny amounts of money and poor future job prospects
The New Ethics in America (Score:4, Insightful)
To answer that question, we should understand the theft in the total context of labor ethics. The current economic recession differs from the previous recession (during the dotcom bust) in 2 important ways. One difference is that it was caused by a failure of the banking system, which had placed financial bets on bad mortgages.
A second difference is that the "normal" lag between declining gross-domestic product (GDP) and rising unemployment was very short. In all previous recessions, the lag was at least 6 months. During this recession, the lag was much shorter. Once the typical employer saw declining orders for products or services, he immediately fired workers. This high-speed termination of workers was once the hallmark of the Silicon-Valley employer's mentality but has now spread to the rest of the nation.
The national unemployment rate exceeds 10 percent. In some states, the rate exceeds 12%.
By contrast, Japanese companies (for cultural reasons) and European companies (for both cultural reasons and legal reasons) make every effort to avoid firing workers during an economic recession. Although Americans once laughed at Europeans for favoring kinder, gentler labor policies that "hindered" economic growth, the Europeans now have the last laugh: the unemployment rate in America now exceeds the rate in several European countries.
The Americans favor a Darwinian system of employment: survival of the fittest. If you are "weak" and if you do not have the right political connections (e. g., being the beer-drinking buddy of the department head), then you will be fired. If you lose your home, your family, and commit suicide, then the Darwinian system gives only 1 reply: "Too bad, loser!"
In this context, we should not judge the morality of stealing sensitive data from your previous employer. If he fired you in response to the recession, then you should do whatever you need to do to survive. You should live by Darwinian rules. You do whatever you need to do and whenever you need to do "it".
Re:The New Ethics in America (Score:5, Insightful)
Since when do two wrongs make a right? Did everyone who didn't get laid off | fired | whatever do you wrong? Do they deserve to pay the consequences if you screw over your previous employer and it results in even more job losses?
Your attitude is childish, greedy, and thoughtless. Or did you not have any friends working there, so in your mind "they all deserve to pay?"
Employers don't seek out recessions so they can fire people.
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Employers don't seek out recessions so they can fire people.
Hi, you must be new here.
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And by "here" you mean "to life." Oh for the days when I was young, innocent and stupid and believed in good will toward men.
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Yeah... that guy has obviously never worked for a big technology firm like HP or IBM. They love using recessions as an excuse to do massive layoffs and outsourcing of work overseas, since it improves their profit margins and stock price by doing so.
On the other hand, perhaps he's still new and still believes the spiel from HR. You know... the speech telling him what a valuable asset he is to the "team" before getting his 2% bonus for being a top performer and working harder than everyone else. Sorry, dude..
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I think this is a discussion of wrong and right from the perspective of the market. The market, and corporations, speak only one language, the language of greed and profit. Profit = good, loss = bad. Anything that brings profit is good. Look at corporate behavior and you'll see that employees' lives, environmental costs, customer satisfaction (or survival -- tobacco or car industry) are only important when measured in profit.
The choices @reporter describes are choices in a system that does not operate withi
Re:The New Ethics in America (Score:5, Interesting)
Just a quick point:
Sure, most* have to make a profit long-term in order to exist, but this sounds dangerously similar to "they have a legal obligation to maximize shareholder profits" - which is the basest of lies, because like any big lie, it's been told so many times that people actually believe it.
Of course, when challenged, they can't find the appropriate statute (there is none) so they just go around waving their hands ...
* (there are plenty of corporations whose mandate is definitely not to make a profit. Some are philanthropic in nature, some are purposefully tax shelters, some are NGOs, some are professional corporations charged with overseeing their members to make sure they adhere to standards, etc.)
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Too funny, my company told me point blank that recessions are used exactly for that purpose. Sure they don't go out of their way to cause a recession, but when one comes around they take advantage of it. Here they have been going over everyone's yearly reviews, and if you have been 'just' average or worse, look out. We've been axing bad employee's left and right. Some good employee's end up getting let go to, but by in large the head count of people who would just roam the building all day doing nothing, or
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Re:The New Ethics in America (Score:5, Insightful)
The bubble couldn't have happened without their willful participation. The banks couldn't have done it without your neighbours help. So, yes indeed, what goes around has come around. Your neighbours helped f*ck you over. They were the crucial element without which the housing bubble could not have happened.
And why not apply it to the international level. The US and Great Britain were the two countries that fueled the housing bubble - so, as you so vulgarly put it - "A tooth for a tooth, an eye for an eye motherfuckers!" - we're glad to hear you'll forfeit your assets to compensate the other countries for the damage you two did to the global economy.
Or you could stop being so childish and realize that two wrongs don't make a right.
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... and they had the complicity of over 20 million greedy Americans, who believed that it was okay to lie on mortgage applications, or be willfully blind to obvious problems, or ignored the experiences from the previous housing bubbles and the warnings from people like me by mindlessly chanting "this time it's different", or who profited from the hype in other ways, or whose cases now clog the courts, or whose recklessness helped cause the meltdown that is costing other people their jobs, or who treated their homes as ATMs, or who rang up huge credit card debts for no rational reason.
If I go to a doctor, then I'm consulting an expert that should know better than me about medicine. I don't have the obligation of having an MD diploma so, if I'm ill advised by him and get sick in consequence it's more his responsibility than mine!
People that are oblivious to how the financial markets work were told by the absolute experts that they could make a loan and buy a house. What they fuck should they do? Now you want to blame them for trying to improve their lives???
This "personal responsibi
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When the second wrong undoes the damage of the first. If stealing that data stops your house being foreclosed due to redundancy, you have to do it. Your family is more important than corporate ethics. Especially when it's the corporation that fired you, to which you owe nothing.
The corporate attitude is childish, greedy and thought
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I don't buy it.
That's just a rationalization for being a sleaze. Isn't giving your family a sense of ethics and pride and self-worth more important than keeping a house by being a crook? You might be able to get another house - and a home is where you hang your hat, whether it's a house or an apartment or anywhere else; you can't ever restore your childrens p
Re:The New Ethics in America (Score:4, Insightful)
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How about "because it's kind of hypocritical of you to criticize someone for acting a certain way when you act the same way?"
Or "If you want to lead, you have to lead by example, not 'Do as I say, not as I do'".
Or "Ask not what your country can do for you, but what you can do for your coun
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Microsoft has been roundly criticized for extending its' layoffs over the course of a year, making it hard on all their employees not knowing when the next shoe will drop. Everyone
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You should live by Darwinian rules.
And why should Darwin get to make the rules?
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the rules were already made, he just figured out what they were.
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Stealing is stealing, and being in a hard spot, though a profound test of character (esp if your SO is laying it on thick for you to nick some stuff), does not excuse theft. If it WERE ok then it would be called "forced charity". Call a spade a spade. Duress by circumstance might get you pity, but it doesn't get you a pass.
Worse yet, if you are caught stealing, that pretty much nixes any hope you have of collecting unemployment IIRC, since you'd be provoking your own dismissal with such a blatant violati
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Although Americans once laughed at Europeans for favoring kinder, gentler labor policies that "hindered" economic growth, the Europeans now have the last laugh: the unemployment rate in America now exceeds the rate in several European countries.
lol
In the same light ... the young kids in my neighbourhood used to laugh at the old folks, because of their inability to play baseball. Now the old folks have the last laugh, because one of the kids broke his leg.
Seriously, WTF dude? Is that what you consider a logical train of thought?
In this context, we should not judge the morality of stealing sensitive data from your previous employer. If he fired you in response to the recession, then you should do whatever you need to do to survive. You should live by Darwinian rules. You do whatever you need to do and whenever you need to do "it".
There ARE no Darwinian rules. This is what theists/creationists often fail to understand, and why they come to such ridiculous conclusions. Evolution doesn't mean that everyone has to be a dick; in fact, co-operation ten
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Although Americans once laughed at Europeans for favoring kinder, gentler labor policies that "hindered" economic growth, the Europeans now have the last laugh: the unemployment rate in America now exceeds the rate in several European countries.
Yep, there may be a lesson there. On the other hand, if it takes a once-in-a-century recession to get the US unemployment rate up to European levels, that suggests that most of the time it's actually lower. Maybe there's a lesson in there as well.
I'm gonna be rich! (Score:2)
Once my company's competitor learns I know how much Bob from accounting or Joanne from HR make, I'm sure they will shower me with Andrew Jackson's business cards.
And then I woke up :)
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Whoa! But what about the management's belief that "firewalls will protect our sensitive data!"? Surely you can't just walk out the door with data and not be caught red-handed by said firewalls!?! Say it ain't so, Bob & Joanne!
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Securitas and thus the Pinkertons are unionized nowadays according to wikipedia. Funny shit.
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No, it doesn't. I was called in to do some consulting for a few months at one place, and one of the sales reps approached me about making an app for him; he had started up a business, had his customer lists, prices, etc., and was skimming customers for his new business while still employed at his current location.
Even if he had already quit, it's still illegal. Customer and price lists are the employers' p
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I informed the ownership, and gave testimony during discovery with lawyers for both sides present. If I hadn't informed them, there would have been questions asked about what I knew and when, since I had access to everything (a lot more than the dickhead did). I don't need the grief, and neither should you. Act like a professional.
The problem with your course of action is that you GOT the grief involved with wasting your time with testimony, etc. Did the company pay you for your time involved there, time
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Looking the other way all the time only allows it to get worse, since the bad guys, emboldened by their success, will only get greedier and greedier over time. Weeds are best pulled before they've had time to get firmly rooted.
That's the same sort of complacent attitude that allowed the Mafia to swallow sicily. 80 percent of sicilian businesses pay pizzo so that they don't get their windows broken in, or worse, get shot.
If you see something illegal happening, you need to report it. If going up the chain
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I don't think this is a black-and-white issue. There's illegal, and there's illegal: smoking pot is illegal, but I'm not going to report anyone who does it. Threatening people with violence, however, is something I would certainly try to stop.
If this guy was threatening to kill someone at the company, then yes, I'd turn him in too. But in this case, he was conspiring to "steal" their customers. Cry me a river. You can't "steal" a customer; the customer either goes willingly or he doesn't.
Besides, failu
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What if the person who "stole" the customer knows other confidential information, such as the customer's current supplier's deal with the customer, and uses that information to undercut their current deal? (Rather than simply offering the deal the new company t
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"Aiding and abetting."
You're working on the loading dock, and you don't report how the shipper is taking money and selling stock out the back door. When asked about inventory shrinkage, you mumble about stuff that gets broken, returned and must have lost the paperwork, etc. - you are now an accessory after the fact.
You're in the military, and your senior officer orders you to do something against the regs. Forget the Nuremberg defense.
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Better an afternoon in discovery where everyone on both sides is nice and polite, than a day or two in court, having one side trying to discredit you, or worse, trying to shift at least a part of the blame to you. It's the same as donating blood or doing jury du
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Raped and Murdered? No. But how many decent people may have lost their jobs (and by extension the ability to feed and clothe their families) due to declining profits associated with the theft of data? What effect would the theft have on the company's future abilities to hire you on again as a consultant?
If I see an actual crime being committed (crimes that can impact other people negatively....that does not include such things as the worker smoking some dope on his off time) I believe it is my full respon
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There's a difference between your personal contacts with a company and stealing the green-bar printout of all the company customers, as well as the company internal product and price codes and margins.
Example: I worked for 3 years writing server software for an Internet search engine. If I were to go to another similar job, the code doesn't come with me. Neither does the customer list. Nor the affiliates. Nor certain other stuff.
1. For the code, there's no need. I can do it over, better, from scr
How convenient (Score:5, Insightful)
Cyber-Ark just happens to have a product that helps prevent this.
Re:How convenient (Score:5, Funny)
Well, they do until they fire one of their employees ;)
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Trend Micro purchased Provilla to jumpstart their way to catching Symantec. Cisco's CSA Agent can act as a DLP device when paired with sniffers.
DLP modules can be particularly nasty. They are, in effect, beneficial (to the company) rootkits. Often, the good ones like Leakproof (I have no affiliation with the product, it won SC magazine's product 5/5 Award - http://www.scmagazineus.com/trend-micro-leakproof/review/2632/ [scmagazineus.com]) can't be
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In this way, the same effects as regions and LPARs and mainframe access rights are re-achieved in the modern age with virtual desktops and VPN.
A couple of jobs ago, one of the tasks was a monthly data update to a tool our users had, basicly download a certain file from the mainframe and do some tweaks before importing it into a GUI front-end.
The first time I did it without help (i.e. logged into my own account), the next day I got a phone call asking why the hell I was looking at such-and-such business data, as an IT guy you have no need for that. Turns out my boss didn't sign the right form or something, got him on the phone and all was resolved.
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ethics (Score:5, Insightful)
Speaking of professional ethics, who wants to bet that a survey sponsored by Cyber-Ark uses leading questions to produce results which bolster their business?
On Loyalty (Score:5, Insightful)
"Additionally a quarter of workers said that the recession has meant that they feel less loyal towards their employer."
I'd be happy to show some loyalty to my employer if they would but return the favor. Instead I'm treated as a simple expense on the accountant's balance sheets; one that's easily gotten rid of. The people who make the decisions are much too far removed from the people who make the product. Hell, I feel more loyalty to my favorite baseball team than I do to the corporation I work for.
Re:On Loyalty (Score:5, Insightful)
The article has nothing to do with loyalty. If my company wants to lay me off, they're welcome to do so, but I'm still expected to remain within the bounds of the law. I might think poorly of them or get skittish the next time a lay-off spree happens in some future company, but I certainly wouldn't turn molehills into mountains by risking jail time.
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but I certainly wouldn't turn molehills into mountains by risking jail time.
The wall street bankers didn't go to jail. On the contrary, they were rewarded with your tax dollars. The real world plays hardball; maybe you should too.
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See, this is the difference between human thinking and corporative thinking. A corporation will remain within the bounds of the law, UNLESS it's more profitable to overstep them and paying the fines. Greed is the only moral codex of corporations.
On Society, and Sociopathy (Score:5, Insightful)
Indeed. When execs are getting $10 mil bonus packages for burning a company to the ground, when the upper echelons are gutting pension plans by reneging on past promises and contracts and then turn around and pocket the savings for themselves, it should come as no surprise in the least that those of us further down the corporate ladder are taking a similarly opportunistic approach.
Social mammals tend to emulate the alpha individuals of their groups. The alphas, by dint of successfully establishing themselves as alphas, are viewed as successful -- "well, they're doing something right for themselves, guess it'd be smart for me to do the same." When sociopaths lead our companies, the employees themselves will, generally speaking, start behaving more sociopathically. It's basic survival.
Cheers,
Re:On Society, and Sociopathy (Score:4, Insightful)
More concisely - a fish rots from the head down.
You are projecting you lazy SOB. (Score:3, Insightful)
Some of us like to work for reasons beyond simple money.
Perhaps you made the wrong job choice, my sympathies.
It's never to late to find something you like to do (accepting financial reality.)
Who knows: If you like it you might even be good at it?
Or perhaps you are just fucking lazy.
I would go stir crazy without something useful to do.
If I were independently wealthy I would have to construct a job like activity to keep me busy. Perhaps 'making a small fortune in auto racing'? Bet I would work _m
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Scary... (Score:5, Funny)
Looking at your Slashdot name, that post takes on a bit of an ominous tone. Is "gave my notice" some kind of euphemism?
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Amen to that! After showing my now former employer how I saved them approximately US$350,000 over the last two years by making some very simple & inexpensive changes, they handed me my 5 year milestone award & a layoff notice with nearly the same handshake. I really should have ripped that place off blind, but I didn't.
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working [...] in your underwear.
Mind you, if that's part of the contract, you may want to turn it down anyway.
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Then the recession happened. They cut extra spending, so no more free lunches. No more employee outings. Morale went down. Next came raises. Oooh, we can't afford to give you a cost of living increase. The people accepted it, but morale went down. After the lunches and the raises were gone, we were told to that about 1/8 of the people in the building would be laid off. Morale went down. Then the layoffs happened. Morale went down. Then after they laid peopl
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Re:On Loyalty (Score:5, Insightful)
If you feel that the company is treating you bad now... Imagine if they found out that you stole data from them, and used it against them... We had an employee do that. He is now bankrupt, and in essence lost everything. And we don't feel bad about it. Oddly enough if you leave your job on good terms even if they lay you off. Chances are they will at least give you a decent reference. Vs. a Yes he worked here and that is all I am gonna say.
Do they filter by position? (Score:2)
Because I'm sure the people working IT would have different statistics, given that we generally have ALOT more access to ALOT more information. I can read people's emails, I can look up every work order, I can view everyone's hard drives, browser history, heck, anything leaving the company network gets some log by the proxy.
I'm sure IT guys could find alot more valuable information, and as such, might be more willing to sell it.
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yea, those photos of the boss cross dressing and dancing with a male hooker are worth a mint.
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People aren't afraid to own up to being blackmailed any more. Ask David Letterman - or better yet, ask the jerk who tried to cash the $2M check.
This isn't 1950 any more. People don't care if you're gay, lesbian, bi, trans, or like to sit at home and compose haikus.
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or like to sit at home and compose haikus.
That was a problem in the 50's that could be blackmailed?
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1. In my jurisdiction, the *only* grounds for divorce is that one of the parties no longer wishes to be married to the other. 100% no fault. the judge doesn't want to hear about why the marriage failed - in fact, he can't even take it into account if he wanted to.
2
Survey was of white-collar crooks (Score:5, Insightful)
The survey asked banksters and Wall Street fraud artists: FTFA:
We already know that Wall Street and Canary Wharf are full of crooks. I suspect that among that bunch, the 41% is low - the other 59% probably lied.
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The survey asked banksters and Wall Street fraud artists: FTFA:
We already know that Wall Street and Canary Wharf are full of crooks. I suspect that among that bunch, the 41% is low - the other 59% probably lied.
Huh. That's the same stats for masturbation!
I think I need to get a government grant for that - Obama is promoting science.
Re:Survey was of white-collar crooks (Score:5, Interesting)
And specifically, if they're talking about business folks, as opposed to the IT guys, for example, then "stealing information" may include things like taking your client rolodex with you. While this is still ethically questionable, I don't think it's illegal. If it is, it at least has tacit approval by the entire industry with how pervasive it is.
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As an IT guy, I wouldn't want my rolodex, I'd just want to take my electronic porn stash with me. That's what I'd be telling the nice HR lady during my exit interview. "Trust me on this one. You don't want me to leave this stuff for someone else to find. "
Yeah right (Score:5, Insightful)
I'm sure that some people do try to profit from illicitly obtained information from their past employers; I've heard a few stories here and there about people getting busted. But there is simply no way that 50% of everyone in the workforce is doing this for a few simple reasons:
1. Risk - I think everyone is aware that the damage to your career and professional reputation would be catastrophic if you were caught, not to mention the legal ramifications.
2. Ethics - Yes, people do have them. Maybe not everyone is the pinnacle of ethical behavior, but that doesn't mean every other person you see at the office is just waiting to mug you and steal your wallet in the parking lot.
3. Nothing to steal - The majority of employees just don't have access to proprietary information that is actually of value outside the company. Sure, I could tell a future employer about my company's HR policies or give them an org chart. That might be very slightly useful, but certainly isn't going to get me hired or land me millions. I could also give them all of the company's internally developed code, but it would be of little use without all of the institutional knowledge, expertise and essentially the entire original company to go along with it.
4. Employers are liable as well - Take the case of the people who tried to sell some of Coke's trade secrets to Pepsi. They were refused, and Pepsi informed the police. They know that they would be liable for the illegal behavior as well, and want no part of it. Now not every employer operates above board, but it's a risky game to try to sell information to someone who may not even want to buy it.
So in summary: bullshit.
Customer list, margins, costs (Score:2)
manufacturing processes, marketing material, suppliers. etc etc.
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To add to that, one of the most important things to remember:
5. There is no way in hell that 50% of the employed population, even if you're just looking at the corporate office lackey population, are smart enough to even get the idea that they might benefit from copying some sort of corporate business information. Most people are just struggling to make it through every day while getting an acceptable level of work done to avoid getting fired. It is ludicrous to think that one out of every two employees has
You say bullshit, I say desperation (Score:3)
You call bullshit, but this survey is about how desperate and scared people are.
1. Risk - In the industry I work in, even before the Recession, theft of data has always been a huge issue. No, theft of data is no big deal at your local 7-11, but at businesses with regular customers, it could be a simple matter for a salesrep to snatch it's customer roll and sneak off, start their own company, and take these customers with them. the survey talked to 600 people in Canary Wharf London and Wall Street New York
poor security practices strike again (Score:2)
If the data is so sensitive, you'd think that a company would bother to change the passwords periodically so employees that have been let go can't get back into the system. However, security doesn't seem to be a terribly high priority so c
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Yea, what happened to the good old days when they would find out they let you go by the locks being changed on your office door or not being able to log in, or worse the security guard has a box of your stuff at the front desk?
Personally, I do cut off all network access, email accounts, and so on with my own employees before informing them to hit the road, even if they are leaving under good terms. Fortunately, I have not had to fire many, because I generally don't treat them like shit and they don't treat
Causality error (Score:3, Insightful)
Survival (Score:3, Interesting)
Company's that don't treat their employees like valued assets will discover it is the very foundation of their business which will turn on them when they need them most. The old-boys-club (or woman's club nowadays) can fall to ruin under the pressure of a survivalist-economy just as quickly as they can layoff a $30k worker in HR rather than cut $100k+ executive pay or bonuses by 1% in order to help keep that worker and their company strong.
No loyalty or sense of community = no loyalty or care of the communities well being.
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You know, I'd say it's unethical to disclose private and legal information. I'd say it's ethical to disclose private and illegal information. It's also ethical to disclose immoral information along the lines of, "We're either going to have to take a 1% pay cut, or lay off 20 people." Perhaps if people start doing this, then we'll see the true face of companies.
Define Sensitive Data? (Score:3, Insightful)
Depending on how you ask the question, you'll get a different answer. Sensitive data range from a simple copy of the internal phone list, to a valuable dump of the client database. For programmers, I bet 95% would keep copies of minor programs they wrote believing they will be of use for them at a later job. Created on company time and therefore company owned perhaps, but that automatically mean any harm has been done.
The original article was lots of hype and scare tactics. What were they trying to sell again?
Theft? (Score:2)
When a music/video piracy article pops up here it seems like somebody always points out that copyright infringement isn't theft. Nobody is being deprived of something, blah blah blah, yadda yadda yadda, you know the arguments.
It seems like there's no stealing or theft involved here either; it's just a copy and nobody is being deprived of anything. Don't recall anybody pointing that out before in this context.
Case A) Copying bits, but it's not theft it's copyright infringement.
Case B) Copying bits, but it
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It would seem that there might be a distinction, and I'm curious where people draw the line.
I think the line is clearly visible:
Case A (a CD): anyone can have a copy for $10-20. The IP owner's business is not in trouble because you bought (or even stole) a music CD. At worst they lost those $10-20 that you didn't pay.
Case B (an IP): nobody can have a copy for any reasonable amount of money. The IP owner's business may be in trouble because the data was stolen, and many people may lose jobs if the bus
You can't steal *published* data (Score:5, Insightful)
You can't steal music (except by stuffing CDs down your pants at the store) because the data is published (not to mention broadcast). Confidential information, on the other hand, can be "stolen" because, while you're still merely copying the data, you're stealing the secret.
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except by stuffing CDs down your pants at the store
That's stealing CDs, not music.
I guess I also can't steal "code" either. What would you call me if I ... broke the licensing code for Apache or something like that? or Linux? GPLv[whatever it is]. Not only broke it but claimed it was actually mine, made a proprietary product out of it, and sold it.
It's not stealing. The "open source" code is published.
... IMO, I call it "stealing." Loosely termed, sure, but I would colloquially refer to it as stealing. Ok, so maybe it's a licensing issue and not a ph
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I think stealing in the moral sense is...
"Ill gotten gain"
Where "ill" is defined as anything other than straight honest by the book dealing.
Those who fail to pay taxes are stealing because they are enjoying government services without paying for them, for example.
Those who infringe copyright are stealing because they are breaking the law to get their content, and thus deriving a benefit without paying for it. The attitude of indifference to the law is what makes it wrong.
This, incidentally, is one reason b
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I think stealing in the moral sense is... "Ill gotten gain" Where "ill" is defined as anything other than straight honest by the book dealing.
Now you're headed down the rabbit hole of idiotic semantic arguments over colloquialisms. That way lies madness. Let's just stick to the legal definition of "stealing", shall we? Otherwise, this will devolve into verbal fistfights over what, exactly, it means when some jealous ex shouts "That bitch STOLE my boyfriend!"
Re: (Score:3, Insightful)
Whereas when you do deprive someone the ability to sell something (and post about in on Slashdot) you're not stealing. Aren't double standards fun?
I see how this works. Let's say you have an apple cart and are selling apples. I come along with my own apple cart and start selling apples. I am therefore stealing your apples. That explains so many attitudes in business.
Re: (Score:3, Funny)
"but then, I wouldn't much care one way or another if Apple survived"
What?! But if people couldn't buy Apple computers then if they wanted to be stuck up they'd have to be French! How can you not care one way or the other about that?!!
(hehe wonder how quickly this one will go to -1!)
Re: (Score:2)
The fact that you can listen to any popular (by which I mean RIAA-backed) song for free on the radio did nothing to push the apparent value down, now did it? Why pay for it if it's already streamed into my bedroom for free 24/7?
Re:I owe my employer absolutely nothing (Score:5, Interesting)
Why would anyone want to risk hiring someone who demonstrates that they're crooked?
I won't even name my previous employer until the NDA has expired. As for passwords, etc., I do my best to forget them the minute I walk out, after handing them over. I don't even want to be tempted, and it's a small world. It's nice to be called back a year later because they know that, no matter whether you left on good or bad terms, you can still be trusted.
"If you're going to steal for me, what's to stop you from stealing from me?"
"If you're going to lie for me, what's to stop you from lying to me?"
"If you're going to screw someone else over, why should I trust you?"
"Would you do it for a million bucks? Yes? How about a dollar? What do you mean, 'What kind of a person do you think I am?' We already established that with your first answer!"
Trust is easy to lose - and once gone, you can end up like Kurt Greenbaum [kurtgreenb...apussy.com] the "social media director" who is now a pariah because he violated people's trust by revealing a posters' identity and then gloating about it in his column. Don't leave mad - just leave. Life is too short.
Re: (Score:2)
That must make interviews rather awkward.
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Yes, it does. However, I feel it's the right thing to do - this way, there's no temptation to share things inappropriately.
It's the same thing as when I was on jury duty. I was supposed to hand in the notification sheet at the beginning of the murder trial, but I told my employer I would only be handing it in after it was all over, to avoid the possibility of anyone searching for news about it
Simple story to illustrate my point ... (Score:2)
So in the end, it's all about your ego being bruised ... ask anyone, you'll be the bigger person if you can just walk away from it. I know, when you feel they've ripped you a new one and left you bleeding on the sidewalk, that's hard to do, but it's not worth it.
Two men were walking along. Their religion forbade them from having any physical contact with women not their wives.
They came to a stream, and there was a woman th
Re: (Score:2)
Kanuckistan, otherwise known as Montreal, Quebec, Canada, eh :-)
The funny thing is, if you act decently, you soon find yourself surrounded by people who act the same way. If someone finds themselves surrounded by people they wouldn't trust with the deposit on an empty soda pop bottle, they might want to look in the mirror. If you find yourself surrounded by people you can trust, its probably because they feel they can trust you too.
Re: (Score:2)
I'm reminded of what I once heard a lady say on the subject of dating married men: "If he'll do it to them he'll eventually do it to you." In your case: any company who'll hire someone based on what they can illegally/immorally bring to the table will treat them like the crap they are when what they brought to the table is used up.
Re: (Score:2)
Exactly right. Regardless of your own personal ethics, any company that hires you because you're bringing confidential information to them isn't going to be a trustworthy place that values you as an employee.
If you really want to hurt them, make a copy of all this confidential information. Then find a job with a nice company that seems to value you. Now that your economic position is secure, you can have revenge: make sure your fingerprints aren't on this information, and anonymously mail it to some of y
Re: (Score:2)
If you work "hard and smart" you should not have trouble finding a job. The market is very strange right now. You have to remember that the majority of people in any field are under-competent. It's this majority of workers who are having trouble finding alternate employment. In contrast, I've spoken with many old colleagues and friends over the past year who are BEGGING me to help them find qualified workers. The most recent instance was at my previous employer, who terminated their head network engineer fo
Re: (Score:2, Insightful)
me too - in fact, the artificial non-posting of salaries, bonus, and other information leads to distortions in the marketplace.
Which, in other words means that dotgain hates capitalism ... (grin)
Re: (Score:2, Insightful)
Exactly. For any capitalist system to function properly, all market participants must have full and equal access to all information.
This includes labor.
No, this isn't Karl Marx's ideas - this is Adam Smith, the inventor of Capitalism.
Downmodding me won't change the fact that free and widely distributed information makes the market function better, as does all inputs, both good (GDP) and bad (pollution, etc, which aren't measured in our system).
Re: (Score:3, Interesting)
1. Are you going to pay them back the money they gave you in exchange for creating it?
2. Are you that poor a developer that a year later you can't think of a better way t
Re: (Score:2)
I just got fired today for false accusations that I broke an NDA with my ex-employer.
Just got back from the lawyers office. I don't have much chance of getting the job back, even if I wanted it, but I'm preparing legal action if they ever lie to future employers that I broke their NDA, because I in fact, did not. Yes, I can prove that.
FTFY, assuming you're serious.