Pwn2Own 2009 Winner Charlie Miller Interviewed 160
crazipper writes "Tom's Hardware interviewed Charlie Miller, winner of this year's Pwn2Own contest and formerly with the NSA. He discusses the effort it took before the contest to be able to take down a MacBook within seconds, sandboxing, and the effectiveness of the NX bit and ASLR. His outlook on end-users protecting themselves against attacks? 'Users are at the mercy of the products they buy.'"
NX and ASLR (Score:2)
The NX bit is awesome.
ASLR is effective, but it's generally used as a way to slow down attackers after they've already figured out how to break your broken shit.
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Re:NX and ASLR (Score:5, Insightful)
ASLR is just more defense in depth. Real security, physical or virtual, comes from having multiple layers. While it is a nice theory to say "Well just make sure X is secure and nothing will ever get past it," that doesn't work in reality. Shit happens, your border security can fail. Thus real security comes in multiple levels. Not all of them are as critical or as effective as others, but they all help.
ASLR is just another level. If you find a flaw in some software connected to the network, you now have an additional problem in terms of getting code to execute. Is it insurmountable? No, but it is just more shit to get around.
The more levels of security you have, the less likely someone is to break through all of it, especially before you notice they are trying. Have a border firewall, and host based firewalls. Run a virus scanner on every computer. Enable execute disable on systems. Operate as a deprivileged user whenever possible and so on. The more you do, the more things there are to trip up an attacker. Don't say "Well we don't need this because we have this other thing."
I see that most common with firewalls. People will have a network firewall and thus assume that host based firewalls aren't worth the trouble. Well, they are. What if something gets by the network firewall? Just because it isn't supposed to doesn't mean it won't happen. Maybe someone brings in an owned laptop, maybe there's a flaw in the firewall, maybe yo just set it up wrong. Whatever, point is have multiple security layers. Make it so that just because you got by the network firewall, doesn't mean you are in.
So while I certainly wouldn't want to see a company rely on ASLR, as in say "No we don't need to fix that app bug, they can't exploit it since we randomize addresses," I do like it as another layer of defense. Not a magic bullet, but just that much harder to get in.
Re:NX and ASLR (Score:5, Interesting)
Yes, layers of security are indeed the key. Any one layer isn't totally impenetrable but, like layering nets over nets over nets, if you have enough layers then eventually you end up with something that's damn-near watertight.
People always laugh at me because they can't get on my wireless at home easily when they visit. This is because it has:
- WPA2 with secure passphrase and MAC filtering (so this defeats 99% of my visitor's casual attempts to log on) /stealing the key (or WPA2 is cracked, etc.), there's nothing interesting to look at with nmap or sniff.
- Onto a locked-down network with only one visible IP and on that IP, only one visible port (all clients have their own firewalls so that they regard the wireless as "untrusted" and don't transmit information over it) and that port is only open to known IP's. So even if they do get onto the network by sniffing / guessing
- On that port, an instance of OpenVPN which is secured by its own key infrastructure with passphrases.
- On that VPN, you have to set IP's, DNS and proxy correctly (and manually, no DHCP!) or nothing goes out.
Yet, on the "authentic" client side, all you have to do is copy some keys from a USB key and run one little tiny script and everything just runs... I even play Counterstrike over the wireless/VPN and don't even notice any extra latency. But when WPA2 is cracked, or OpenVPN has a bug discovered in it, or MAC filtering is rendered useless (already is, I know), or they guess my internal network numbering etc. then I have still bought myself an incredible amount of time and security to fix the problem before anybody can get onto the network - and anyone trying will be tripping over so many wires that I will notice them trying and just switch it off until I'm sure it's secure. And, from the outside, it just looks like an ordinary wireless connection. You could go overboard - I could run SSH over the VPN, I could hide the wireless broadcasts, I even have a port-knocking setup that I can use to authenticate the opening of ports, without affecting my use of the system.
Security is a question of probability... it's not that your security guard couldn't be overcome, or the safe cracked, or the cameras disabled, or the alarm cut, but that the chances of that ALL happening without anyone noticing are incredibly slim.
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People always laugh at me because they can't get on my wireless at home easily when they visit... defeats 99% of my visitor's casual attempts to log on
*shrug* My visitors always say "cool, thanks!" when they log on my wireless dead easily. But, hey, personally my visitors are my friends and if they want to check their email in my flat I'm happy to help.
What exactly is on your wireless which requires/justifies such heavy security?
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Boredom.
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An internet connection tied to my name and address?
I work in schools - I can't afford for some little plonker down the road to hack into it and then decide to use it to browse websites which may or may not be illegal and traceable to me (I'm thinking of one particular kind of website, the kind banned in most of the world and which Australia recently tried to block with a blacklist, but I'm currently behind a heavy filter on some of the keywords associated with that particular topic).
Internet access is conve
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Nothing - he's just a Linux nerd who thinks he's important.
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You could add one more layer of security. With your access point running OpenBSD's pf, it could have rules that require you to authenticate via a SSH login to a restricted account before it would let you send anything out of the other end of the access point.
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If you go look at Jordan Hubbard's From the Server Room to Your Pocket presentation:
http://www.usenix.org/event/lisa08/tech/hubbard_talk.pdf [usenix.org]
or listen to it:
http://www.usenix.org/media/events/lisa08/tech/mp3/hubbard.mp3 [usenix.org]
you'd realize that Charlie Miller is milking his 15 min of fame for all the
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The NX bit should have always been there, and the fact that it wasn't is incomprehensibly stupid.
x86 was originally designed with a segmented memory model. You'd have one segment for code, one for data, one for stack. It was (and is) indeed possible to set data and stack segments non-executable. Actually, I believe this is achieved by the simple expedient of all jump instructions automatically using the CS (code segment) register, with no option to use any others -- thus you can't jump to or call the data or stack segments unless they overlap with the code segment.
The problem is, in practice peopl
Re:NX and ASLR (Score:4, Interesting)
I agree. One time when I was cleaning malware off of a neighbors computer (wasn't my idea, I got volunteered by someone else in my household), the NX bit kept one of those annoying fake antivirus ones from reinstalling itself when I had Procmon kill its process. At least I think it was Procmon.
Anyway, Windows came up with a nice dialog box telling me that execution was blocked, and it didn't appear to be running after a reboot.
so buy nothing (Score:2)
at then you will not be at anyone's mercy ...of course you may not be able to do much then..
I'm Just saying'
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Pirating software won't make it any less vulnerable...
Wording (Score:2)
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Or at everyone's mercy ;)
Things like OpenBSD are the best for security not only because they are designed specifically with it in mind, but because the people working on it are of a limited, genuine species. With that said, it is probably better to be at 'everyone's mercy' than to be at the mercy of corporations who only want your money. It doesn't matter that the people inside them may want your admiration and recognition. It matters very little, at least. The corporations are who you deal with in the end.
Users are at the mercy of the products they buy (Score:5, Interesting)
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Because you would end up being able to sue almost everyone... ask the same type of question about a car and you will get the same answer
Actually, you CAN sue a car company if their poor design causes you harm - think of the Ford Pinto or any number of automotive recalls.
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Because the EULA says so.
*dodges rotten tomatoes*
EULA (Score:1, Informative)
EULA, ever read it?
"[SomeStupidSoftwareCompany] is not responsible for any damages caused by the use/misuse of this software."
From Mozilla's EULA:
4. DISCLAIMER OF WARRANTY. THE PRODUCT IS PROVIDED "AS IS" WITH ALL FAULTS. TO THE EXTENT PERMITTED BY LAW, MOZILLA AND MOZILLA'S DISTRIBUTORS, LICENSORS HEREBY DISCLAIM ALL WARRANTIES, WHETHER EXPRESS OR IMPLIED, INCLUDING WITHOUT LIMITATION WARRANTIES THAT THE PRODUCT IS FREE OF DEFECTS, MERCHANTABLE, FIT FOR A PARTICULAR PURPOSE AND NON-INFRINGING. YOU BEAR ENTIRE RISK AS TO SELECTING THE PRODUCT FOR YOUR PURPOSES AND AS TO THE QUALITY AND PERFORMANCE OF THE PRODUCT. THIS LIMITATION WILL APPLY NOTWITHSTANDING THE FAILURE OF ESSENTIAL PURPOSE OF ANY REMEDY. SOME JURISDICTIONS DO NOT ALLOW THE EXCLUSION OR LIMITATION OF IMPLIED WARRANTIES, SO THIS DISCLAIMER MAY NOT APPLY TO YOU.
5. LIMITATION OF LIABILITY. EXCEPT AS REQUIRED BY LAW, MOZILLA AND ITS DISTRIBUTORS, DIRECTORS, LICENSORS, CONTRIBUTORS AND AGENTS (COLLECTIVELY, THE "MOZILLA GROUP") WILL NOT BE LIABLE FOR ANY INDIRECT, SPECIAL, INCIDENTAL, CONSEQUENTIAL OR EXEMPLARY DAMAGES ARISING OUT OF OR IN ANY WAY RELATING TO THIS AGREEMENT OR THE USE OF OR INABILITY TO USE THE PRODUCT, INCLUDING WITHOUT LIMITATION DAMAGES FOR LOSS OF GOODWILL, WORK STOPPAGE, LOST PROFITS, LOSS OF DATA, AND COMPUTER FAILURE OR MALFUNCTION, EVEN IF ADVISED OF THE POSSIBILITY OF SUCH DAMAGES AND REGARDLESS OF THE THEORY (CONTRACT, TORT OR OTHERWISE) UPON WHICH SUCH CLAIM IS BASED. THE MOZILLA GROUP'S COLLECTIVE LIABILITY UNDER THIS AGREEMENT WILL NOT EXCEED THE GREATER OF $500 (FIVE HUNDRED DOLLARS) AND THE FEES PAID BY YOU UNDER THIS LICENSE (IF ANY). SOME JURISDICTIONS DO NOT ALLOW THE EXCLUSION OR LIMITATION OF INCIDENTAL, CONSEQUENTIAL OR SPECIAL DAMAGES, SO THIS EXCLUSION AND LIMITATION MAY NOT APPLY TO YOU.
So maybe you can get $500 from Mozilla of something goes wrong?
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You know what? Fuck Mozilla in the ear for putting that shit in all capital letters. There is no reason to do so, unless you actively want people to not read and understand it.
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You know what? Fuck Mozilla in the ear for putting that shit in all capital letters. There is no reason to do so, unless you actively want people to not read and understand it.
Actually it's a legal requirement: under the Uniform Commercial Code, some items in a contract/license, like warranties or disclaimers, must be conspicuous [cornell.edu]. CAPITALS MAKE THEM SO.
Re:Users are at the mercy of the products they buy (Score:5, Insightful)
The same reason you can't sue an alarm company when someone breaks into your house.
If your data is
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Are you really sure you (always) want to pay for high quality software?
Re:Users are at the mercy of the products they buy (Score:5, Insightful)
I illustrate the ridiculousness of your question, I'll rephrase it "Why can't you sue the construction company that built your house if someone vandalizes oor you suffer a loss due to break and enter?"
Re:Users are at the mercy of the products they buy (Score:4, Insightful)
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Why can't you sue a software company if you suffer a loss due to poor security in their product?
*Can't...stop...myself...must...don...tinfoil...hat*
It's because the leadership of the USA realised years ago that if such laws were passed the subsequent class-action lawsuits might bankrupt Microsoft.... they just couldn't go and do that to one of the nation's biggest tech companies, now could they?
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Why can't you sue a software company if you suffer a loss due to poor security in their product?
You can. You are just highly unlikely to win.
Re:Users are at the mercy of the products they buy (Score:5, Insightful)
When someone I'm working with writes a bug or leaves a security hole, I tease them, but the truth is I still have not found a way to write bug-free code myself. You can't really sue someone for not doing something that is impossible.
OK, I admit some companies could do a significantly better job of making things secure. The article gives a couple examples of what Apple could have done to make their code more secure. But if it were possible to sue someone for that, I would be quite worried personally, as a programmer, I don't trust a jury to determine what is a reasonable vulnerability and what is not, so from my point of view it is better to not make insecure software illegal. And in most non-internet code, security isn't really an issue.
Not only that (Score:3, Interesting)
But if you want something with guaranteed security or uptime or the like, you aren't going to be allowed to mess with it. That means whatever software/features it comes with, you are stuck with. No installing 3rd party tools and such. The design needs to be verified, which means testing all the components against each other and making sure there are no unexpected problems.
So not only would your computer be more expensive, and use older technology (since it'd take longer to develop and test) but it'd be an a
pwnd & ownD (Score:5, Insightful)
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Re:pwnd & ownD (Score:4, Funny)
all you really need to know (Score:2)
He says: OSX is less secure but there's less malware because there's less users than Windows; You need Vista with SP1 to be dramatically more secure than OSX; Linux has mediocre security but is about to get a bump; His grandma can't use Linux; noscript can keep you safe but he doesn't think it's worth it. I figure the last part is just about job security...
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He was sitting on the winning weakness (Score:5, Insightful)
since last year.
A quote from another interview:
"Vulnerabilities have a market value so it makes no sense to work hard to find a bug, write an exploit and then give it away."
Who know what other goodies they have in store. But the browsers and the phones were hardly touched. The contestants are holding out for something better.
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It's probably very easy to work out.
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Just saying that that might be of interest to someone with time to get his macbook ya know ;p he does carry around to many countries.
Just tip off the TSA. They'll confiscate it in a heartbeat.
Then its just a matter of liberating it from the TSA and getting it into the hands of someone who'll know how to read the information on it.
Baby steps...
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The software companies could offer worthwhile bounties. Short of that, I can't fault the prizewinners much.
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Try this then - I have the cure for Cancer (all of it), but I will only take the bounty for each one. How much will you give me for breast cancer? Oh and BTW I set my own price.
This guy is the Pharma of computers.
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Try this then - I have the cure for Cancer (all of it), but I will only take the bounty for each one. How much will you give me for breast cancer? Oh and BTW I set my own price.
Go ahead. No one is obliged to share their knowledge with other people for free if they spent a significant amount of resources obtaining it. Researchers need to eat just like anyone else; they need adequate compensation for their time, one way or another. If they don't get enough money to suit them, they're mostly just not going to be able to do the research: they'll have to find some other line of work that actually pays.
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Try this then.
I can halt untold misery, but it will be 5k and a prize, a year from now. Until then, tough. Sitting on a OS owning weakness so you can collect a prize is asshattery of the first order.
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yeah it's a little sad that these guys are hoarding this info for so long just to win a stupid contest. And he only had to use one of these exploits. What else is he's hoarding for next year?
Which is why software vendors should have standing bounties for useful exploits or, at very least, make a point of hiring these people to do pen testing on their software.
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Re:He was sitting on the winning weakness (Score:4, Interesting)
I've been in a lengthy argument about this guy on the Ars Technica forums. I ended up emailing Bruce Schneier [schneier.com] about this and asked his thoughts.
Here was my email to him:
Hi Bruce,
I've been following the Pwn2Own contest for the last couple of years.
Last year a researcher from ISE ( http://securityevaluators.com/ [securityevaluators.com] )
named Charlie Miller used an exploit in a Perl library included in
WebKit, the base code for Apple's Safari browser and won a cash price
for his effort. In the press it was claimed he "hacked Safari in mere
seconds". In truth it took a lot more time than that to devise the
exploit and only seconds to execute it.
This year he did it again with another preplanned exploit which he
says he discovered while researching last years bug. Again he won a
cash prize of $10,000.
In an interview with ZDNet he said: "I never give up free bugs. I have
a new campaign. It's called NO MORE FREE BUGS. Vulnerabilities have a
market value so it makes no sense to work hard to find a bug, write an
exploit and then give it away," Miller told ZDNet. "Apple pays people
to do the same job so we know there's value to this work."
I have a major problem with his philosophy and feel this is a
dangerous precedent to set and a bastardization of the goals of
security in the fist place. I feel he has an obligation to inform
Apple and not dangle a dollar amount for the how-to.
Sure he should be paid for his time and effort which is why he works
at a security firm. This contest is basically bonus money and about
bragging rights. Sitting on a bug puts the safety of other users at
risk. But he is basically demanding bribe money for bugs. Who is to
say he wouldn't give up his research to the highest bidder? I'm sure
there are blackhat groups like those in Russia and China that would
pay handsomely for some juicy exploits like this.
Yes there is a long history of security firms hiring hackers and there
have been many questions of whether that is a good idea. But security
firms should take notice of this philosophy and not employee those who
engage in this kind of behavior. It's bad form for his employer and
makes the security industry as a whole look bad by proxy. Would you
hire a security company that employees hackers who blackmail for bugs
to work on your systems? If we hired his firm while I was working IT
at a large New York bank I would advised my boss to make sure he's not
on our project (and perhaps hire an entirely different firm altogether).
I've been in a discussion with other users about this. There seems to
be a split in viewpoint, one side saying he should let Apple and the
WebKit developers know about this exploit for the betterment of
everyone (for free). The other side feels this is purely about
capitalism and he has no moral or ethical obligation to tell anyone.
Some have likened it to seeing a crack in a bridge that might fail.
Are you obligated to inform someone of the problem? What if Dan
Kaminsky demanded $1 million to divulge details on the DNS BIND problem?
What are your feelings on this?
Thanks
Here's the discussion I've been following:
http://episteme.arstechnica.com/eve/forums/a/tpc/f/174096756/m/996001677931?r=869003677931#869003677931 [arstechnica.com]
http://dvlabs.tippingpoint.com/blog/2009/03/21/pwn2own-wrap-up [tippingpoint.com]
Bruce wrote me back today with his response:
There's a fine line between being paid for your efforts and extortion. This seems to cross it.
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There's a fine line between being paid for your efforts and extortion. This seems to cross it.
It's only extortion if he threatens to use the bug for personal profit, or release the bug to a third party that intends to do the same (unless they pay).
It's not extortion if he simply keeps it to himself.
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What is the white-hat way to legitimately sell (sensitive) vulnerabilities? I recently found one affecting a large bank and gave that away. Other ones I post on my blog at privacylog.blogspot but I expect to find more and could somehow benefit from this.
I think the best quote was... (Score:5, Interesting)
Between Mac and PC, I'd say that Macs are less secure for the reasons we've discussed here (lack of anti-exploitation technologies) but are more safe because there simply isn't much malware out there.
That pretty much been my take on the situation as well. Vista SP1 really is one of the most secure OSes I've used.
They glossed over Linux on this question, but I suspect Vista SP1 is probably more secure than linux too 'out of the box'... but again less safe in actual practice. Again simply due to the sheer relative volume of malware and the relative high value of windows exploits to linux ones.
(Although Linux at least does have 'SE Linux', AppArmor, Exec Shield, support for ASLR, etc, etc so its more a case that its just not on by default yet. (Ironically a complaint usually levelled at Windows).
And while improvements are added with each kernel release, too Linux admins refuse to install them because would reset their belowed uptime scores which they feel the need to post to /. on a regular basis...
I kid... I kid...
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It seems that ASLR of some form or another has been enabled by default in Linux since 2.6.12. [0] Also, IUC compiling code with gcc's -PIE flag helps.
I have a PaX + grsecurity enabled server at home. It'd be *really* nice if the gdb folks could make debugging a possibility under that configuration. Not having stack traces or being able to set breakpoints [1] is a bitch! :)
[0] http://www.nabble.com/Edgy-and-Proactive-Security-td4695373.html [nabble.com]
[1] Not being able to set breakpoints is probably something that I ca
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Er, make that -fPIE. Proofreading FTL.
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I suspect Vista SP1 is probably more secure than linux too 'out of the box'... but again less safe in actual practice. Again simply due to the sheer relative volume of malware and the relative high value of windows exploits to linux ones.
Suppose I created the mythical 100% secure OS. It would have 0 (working) exploits and no malware. $OTHER_OS (windows, linux, os x, pick your poison) would have more than 0 exploits.
Is my OS secure because it has fewer exploits, or is the other way around: the OS has fewer exploits because it's more secure?
Isn't security by definition the degree to which the OS in question can't be exploited?
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Is my OS secure because it has fewer exploits, or is it the other way around: the OS has fewer exploits because it's more secure?
The point the pwnd2own winner made was the 2 aren't really all that related.
All systems have exploits, that's why your OS is mythical.
Isn't security by definition the degree to which the OS in question can't be exploited?
Sure. To a point. But how can we know the relative degree to which the OS in question can't be exploited when 9/10ths of the effort is focused on finding exploits
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If we're comparing default installs, then vista sp1 is a lot less secure than ubuntu. The default login on vista is an administrator and UAC offers very little protection. There are multiple, trivial, unfixable ways to get around it due to Window's legacy. As MS themselves say, UAC is NOT a security barrier.
Ubuntu on the other hand has an unprivileged default user who has to sudo to do anything, with a proper security barrier between the two states. It's also had ASLR, stack protection, heap protection
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The default login on vista is an administrator...
The 'administrators' group in Vista is a lot more like being on the sudoers list than being root.
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Although Linux at least does have 'SE Linux', AppArmor, Exec Shield, support for ASLR, etc, etc so its more a case that its just not on by default yet. (Ironically a complaint usually levelled at Windows).
Please vote to stop this nonsense. [ubuntu.com]
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(Although Linux at least does have 'SE Linux', AppArmor, Exec Shield, support for ASLR, etc, etc so its more a case that its just not on by default yet.
In which distros? RHEL and Fedora ship SELinux by default, and Ubuntu uses AppArmor. The enterprise distros, in particular, tend to have fairly good security AFAIK. I'd be interested to know how such distros compare with Windows in security.
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I don't really think it was flamebait.
And the sheer amount of users who are trained to click OK at every dialog.
This is legitimate. Its not a windows 'flaw' though.
Its what comes of being the system used by the majority of the least technical people. If the other oses gain siginifant marketshare, the people there will 'ok' away warning or prompt that's between them and their 'free cookie'.
Linux users are for the most part more savvy... for now.
Which is half of the reason why UAC is, on the whole, a failure.
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How can you not love this guy? (Score:5, Funny)
Every time you quote this, somewhere in the world a mac zealot's head explodes. I just did my part :P
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Surely he meant that the mac is easy to break if you DROP it or knock it off your desk. That's what went through my head. That has to be it... Whew... Getting warm in here... ahhhh... pressure... aghhhh! (pfffft!) [youtube.com]
Re:How can you not love this guy? (Score:5, Informative)
I'm beginning to think this "Mac zealot" business is a figment of overly sensitive Windows users imaginations. I work at a place where around 40-50% of the employees choose to use a Mac. The only derisive comments I EVER hear are little snipes aimed at Macs by the Windows crowd. "The page isn't loading? Is it because you're using a Mac?" "You just can't get any work done on a Mac." And yet the Windows crowd loves to complain about Microsoft. I think Microsoft owes their success to the Stockholm syndrome.
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Then you clearly don't have any Mac Zealots where you work.
Yes, I personally know Mac Zealots. I took constant belittlement for nearly two years because I don't run MacOS. Every time you fired back with the slightest criticism of Apple's many many problems and flaws, he'd turn the color of a tomato and storm out of the room. He literally alienated himself from his friends after he bought an iMac. Sad.
And that was only one of them. Oh yes, they exist. On the Internet and in real life.
Apple, over the years, h
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I'm beginning to think this "Mac zealot" business is a figment of overly sensitive Windows users imaginations.
You've never complained about a Mac and been modded into oblivion, have you?
ASLR? (Score:5, Funny)
Isn't it time to write s/w in better languages? (Score:2)
All throughout the article, the back doors for malware are buffer overflows.
Isn't it time to write our software in something that does not allow buffer overflows? something better than C/C++, that is. The cost of securing apps written in these languages is tremendous...
in other movies.. (Score:2, Funny)
next page>
about robot overlords is
next page>
we don't talk about robot overlords
next page>
!!!
--
http://vancouvercondo.info [vancouvercondo.info]
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we don't talk about robot overlords
--
Ya, know.... I thought about that. Then I thought...what if they know what I'm thinking?!!
So then, naturally, I didn't think about that. Showed them!
Re:Grandma can't run Linux? (Score:5, Insightful)
Linux is NOT perfect. Anyone who thinks so is either an idiot or lying. For a lot of people, it is the best and of much better quality and calibre than the alternatives (windows, macOS), but definitely not perfect.
Disclaimer: Proud Ubuntu user since 7.10 and have never even considered moving back to windows.
Re:Grandma can't run Linux? (Score:4, Insightful)
Within the spheres of some Windows power users, who understand the ins and outs of Windows perfectly, Linux is foreign and useless. But the same could be said about Linux power users and Windows. So that is more of a statement about the difficulty users who are strongly versed in one OS have in switching to another. And that proves nothing in the Linux vs. Windows debate.
As far as security is concerned, I'd probably argue that Linux is more secure, but not completely secure. It's possible to get a Linux box completely screwed up (someone was talking about that here, where they accidentally exposed a Linux box with a very old version of OpenSSL to the web and got it compromised), but the question of which is easier to get more secure, or which will have fewer issues. No software is perfect (please no BSD comments), it's all a game of lesser of two evils.
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Disclaimer: Proud Ubuntu user since 7.10 and have never even considered moving back to windows.
That sort of ranks you as a n00b.
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I never claimed to be an expert, or even an advanced user (though I have compiled a couple programs). I was just making a general user observation. I may be a "n00b" from your point of view, but I find the comment unwarranted and in bad taste. Had I tried pointing out specifics regarding the integrity of Linux, you could definitely use my "n00biness" as a point of argument (though a weak one), but I did no such thing.
I just hope you are nicer to people when (if) you help them out in forums and/or IRC...
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Uh, I think you're quite wrong there. I know more than a few Grandmas running Linux. The thing is, they're the ones that usually need the least amount of software. A browser, maybe e-mail if they don't do it in a browser, that's about it. Linux is perfect.
You can't be serious.
Of those "more than a few" Grandmas you know running Linux, how many bought and set up their own computer? How many Grandmas do you know that enjoy compiling drivers?
I'm not a Mac user myself, but for what it's worth, my own Grandma was able to buy herself a Mac and get it plugged in and running on her own. It's similarly easy with a Windows machine as soon as you figure out where all the plugs go, Windows setup is a breeze.
Sure, they need help figuring out what to do once the thing i
Re:Grandma can't run Linux? (Score:4, Insightful)
Um... how many grandmas do you know who set up their own windows machine? Plugging it in doesn't count, they have to actually install windows.
0?
thought so. Windows is just as much of a PitA as Linux, and the same people who need help setting up one need help setting up the other.
Where Linux fails is the power users, who have learned how to do things beyond email (that someone else set up) in windows, and who have to re learn a sometimes less intuitive way in Linux. (that and peripheral hardware)
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Where Windows fails is the power users, who have learned how to do things beyond email in Linux, and who have to relearn a sometimes less intuitive way in Windows.
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Well yes, and I hate using windows for exactly that reason.
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How many Grandmas do you know that enjoy compiling drivers?
I've used Linux exclusively on my desktop for somewhere over a year and a half, and have administered a Linux server for over two years. I have never had to compile a driver. I've only even had to ever install one driver manually (NVIDIA's binary-only driver, sigh), which is more than I can say for Windows! And the overwhelming majority of times I compiled any software at all that I didn't write myself, it was to get access to development versions for better bug reporting, which your typical grandma does
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Ah, you must be talking about the mythical "Aunt Tilly"
Please provide some proof of these Grandmas' existence... I would like to see some actual seniors using Linux
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Okay, here [slashdot.org] you [slashdot.org] go [slashdot.org].
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Thank you, that was what I was looking for!
How's Grandma doing with her computer, almost a year after your journal posts?
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Grandma has done fairly well. She can get her e-mail and check her bank accounts without assistance, which is 99% of what she wants to do. She still mashes the mouse button, jerking the mouse. She also is majorly impatient, clicking the Firefox icon 3 or 4 times thinking it isn't coming up fast enough. I wish that app had an "allow only one instance" option.
Many of her "senior" friends were encouraging her to use the PC more, but can never answer her question of "for what?" As it turns out, there is a
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If you really have a thing for ogling old people using FOSS, then check out continuing education programs in your area.
That is a reliable place to find seniors using Linux - as many use the local community center/community college as a place to find new hobbies/friends.
Twenty years ago it was Bingo/Bridge clubs, now all the oldsters are taking ceramics, piano, and 'internet' classes.
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Only until your mom, aunt, or great aunt gives them a copy of some Popcap (or really any casual) game and it won't run.
Re:Grandma can't run Linux? (Score:4, Funny)
Thats where grandma's decades of real life experience is more useful than a 20 something's decade in moms basement.
Grandma can seduce her way onto any OS or system or network.
Or just have the best looking forum, blog, webpage or social networking page ever.
The best part is she passed the same skills onto her daughter too.
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"PC" means an Intel architecture computer capable of running Windows.
Well, current Macs are Intel architecture computers and they are capable of running Windows.
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What are you talking about?
PC and PC-Clone originally meant IBM, not MS.
Go to wikipedia and type in IBM PC.
Before that it was all micro/mini naming conventions.
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Hmmm... we can do better at coining a new word.
Let's start with an anachronism:
anachronism |É(TM)ËnakrÉ(TM)ËOEnizÉ(TM)m| noun a thing belonging or appropriate to a period other than that in which it exists, esp. a thing that is conspicuously old-fashioned.
Now, let's combine that with an acronym:
anachronism + acronym = anachronym! Sounds better...
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Whenever I hear someone referring to systems like that I get in a mood to tell them off. Last time I checked PC meant Personal Computer.
Actually, as I recall the term was originally, "IBM compatible personal computer". Thus, the term excluded Macs. It was shortened to "PC" after the meaning was established.
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Yeah, Apple only builds home computers.
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That's not to say I'm flaming Windows... I'm more flaming Mac users (of which I am one/split between Leopard and Ubuntu) who need to be more concerned about WTF they're clicking, downloading, and giving their sudo pw too. So put your pitchforks away... I am not pleased with the lack o
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I wonder if you can mod articles flame bait, as going by moderation of my comment it certainly qualifies
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My grandma has no chance of hacking anything, she's dead.
(Both of them are, actually.)
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You know we dont read this shit dont you troll?
A heck of a lot more people read it when it has a child that's +1 Insightful.
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Okay, here's what happened:
1. Truly anonymous and cowardly Anonymous Coward posts sincere, frothing neoconservative hate rant.
2. A non-anonymous, somewhat bold Onymous Coward poses as a grousing neoconservative, accusing the (truly hate-mongering and ridiculous) Anonymous Coward of actually being a liberal in disguise, accusing the Anonymous Coward of only pretending to be a neocon, accusing Anonymous Coward of really being a liberal trying to denigrate neocons by coming across as a crazy neocon. In fact O
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No worries. Really my fault for such silly convolution. Sorry.