KDE 4.1 Beta 1 Released

appelza contributed a link to Tuesday's announcement of the next step toward KDE 4.1: "The KDE Project is proud to announce the first beta release of KDE 4.1. Beta 1 is aimed at testers, community members and enthusiasts in order to identify bugs and regressions, so that 4.1 can fully replace KDE 3 for end users. KDE 4.1 beta 1 is available as binary packages for a wide range of platforms, and as source packages. KDE 4.1 is due for final release in July 2008." I haven't used KDE much for the past few years, but the screenshots of a "grown-up" plasma are enough to make me correct that.

At least its getting updated

[pacroon]

I think that besides whats already been stated about the obvious nifts 'n gigglez with eyecandy, it looks a little less "overdone" than the previous ones. I'm not a big KDE fan myself, but in this particular period in time, I'm mostly happy that large free applications are being updated at all. :)

That's a fast /.

[Yoooder]

So there wasn't even a comment posted (even after a refresh) before the site was slashdotted and nearly dead.

Impressive!

I dunno....

[mpapet]

My concern is not so much the desktop environment itself.

How many KDE3-guified apps are going to switch over to KDE4? I don't expect to see very many this year, but next year should be very telling regarding the desktop's popularity.

Re:I dunno....

[Tanktalus]

I dunno ... I'm running kde 4.0.4 right now, and I have to say that while there are apps that are prone to crashing (darned open-source imperative to release early and release often, but, hey, I knew that before electing to install it), I do love what they've done with many things. A few things stick out in my mind: konqueror - VASTLY improved, okular - replaces kpdf and can read MS's "compiled html" (.chm) format (which is helpful for me), the composite effects are not all just eye candy - things like dimming background windows help me focus on the foreground application and pushing my mouse into a corner of the screen (default: top-left) to show all the windows on the desktop (or on all desktops) is HUGELY helpful.

That's just some of the KDE3 apps that are already ported to KDE4. Even extras like ktorrent have already been ported to KDE4, which is nice.

I really miss the PIM stuff (kmail, knode, kalarm, kaddressbook, etc), so I'm really looking forward to seeing KDE 4.1 in the main Gentoo portage tree, even masked, as soon as possible.

I expect to see MANY kde3 apps moved to KDE4 this year.

Heck, I was running the KDE4 version of ktorrent on KDE 3.5.8 earlier this year (yes, I know, 3.5.9 is out), so it's not like it's entirely a problem to have these apps coexist. This provides apps the opportunity to port to KDE4 without needing their users to actually use KDE4 as their desktop.

Re:

[novakyu]

How many KDE3-guified apps are going to switch over to KDE4?

I don't know about how much things are different under the hood, but as far as GUI goes, QT4 has compatibility objects and methods for programs transitioning from QT3, if the developer doesn't want to re-implement everything with QT4.

Except for very old, stable programs that are not being updated anymore, I don't see what would stop someone from switching over to QT4 (and presumably KDE4).

Re:

[HappySmileMan]

Amarok, Konversation, K3b, KDevelop and Kontact are main blockers in this regard, all are being ported.

Amarok and KDevelop already have Alpha/Beta releases out, and should be done within a couple of months I think (original plan was to coincide with 4.1 but not sure if they will), Kontact will be a part of 4.1.

Konversation and K3b are going to be ported, but I don't know when

Is KDE Taking the Lead?

[ryanisflyboy]

I am not a window manager guru by any stretch. I use Gnome since that is what a lot of my friends use, and at the time I made the choice KDE didn't seem as capable. Now I look at KDE and get the impression that Gnome is falling behind in breadth and depth of features, configurability, and ease of use. Is that an accurate view of the situation? If so, why isn't Gnome able to keep up?

Re:

[Anonymous Coward]

Now I look at KDE and get the impression that Gnome is falling behind in breadth and depth of features, configurability, and ease of use.

It always had been. I'm a GNOME user who remembers the years of file chooser abuse by the GTK devs. I'm using GNOME because the whole thing feels more "solid", I like nautilus better than Konq, and that Firefox uses gtk.

Re:Is KDE Taking the Lead?

[domatic]

The GNOME guys idea of user friendly is strip features and configurability rather than refining features, picking good defaults, and laying out dialogs for ease of use by normal users and having tastefully accessible extra options for the particular and demanding power user. And no guys, clicking around in gconf which may not even respect those customizations on the next login doesn't cut it.

Historically KDE has fallen down by making configurability difficult for casual users and a pain for power users but at least power users could eventually get things the way they want them. I read good things about how KDE4 is going with that but have yet to see it for myself as it was a mass of regressions from KDE 3.5 the last time I tried it. Once it acquires polish and forward ported features and apps from 3.5, I'll be switching too.

Comment removed

[account_deleted]

Comment removed based on user account deletion

Re:Important Caveats

[Jesus_666]

Actually, KDE 4.1 is what the average user considers to be "KDE 4". 4.0 was mainly the technical basis on which the actual GUI would be built.

Re:

[PitaBred]

4.0 was advertised as a "base" platform for application developers and bleeding-edge adopters, a feature-freeze for the KDE 4.0 frameworks, not necessarily a feature-complete desktop environment. Was there somewhere or someone that said otherwise? If so, they should be slapped with a trout.

Re:

[account_deleted]

Comment removed based on user account deletion

Re:Important Caveats

[SanityInAnarchy]

Was there somewhere or someone that said otherwise?

Only the convention of a "dot-oh" release since the beginning of... since forever.

If it was meant for bleeding-edge adopters, it should have been called alpha or beta. If it was meant for application developers, call it a release candidate, or split it into two projects and call this one "kdebase 4.0".

Calling it "KDE 4.0" was a mistake.

Re:

[lattyware]

Yeah, when KDE4.0 was released, they basically said look to KDE4.1 for our first proper release.

Re:Important Caveats

[StormReaver]

KDE 4.0 was never intended for mainstream use, but rather as the first implementation of the new KDE libraries that allowed developers to begin porting their KDE 3.x applications to KDE 4. As such, KDE 4.0 was largely unusable. However, its goals (the main porting effort) were achieved, so it was considered a success.

KDE 4.1 is supposed to be the first KDE 4 version usable by real people. There was a lot of space between 4.0 and actual usability; but the developers have been making rapid progress, and KDE 4.1 seems good in the article, so I'm allowing myself a bit of optimism that it might have enough of 3.5's functionality to be useful -- especially if I can uninstall Dolphin without trashing the rest of the desktop.

Re:

[Frekko]

As a long time KDE user I can tell you that this is not true. Not that KDE 4 isn't very impressive (I love, that's why I use it) but these two projects are developed in parallel. They watch each other as hawks and most of the features are in fact quite similar. Yes, there are some differences, but hey they are different products.

Love the fact that we have competition on the desktop on Linux. It's our greatest blessing!

Re:Is KDE Taking the Lead?

[Chineseyes]

Taking the lead of what exactly? Gnome has followed a trend of removing features and giving users few options while KDE has been giving users more features and more options.

Some people feel that completely removing options is a good idea because they are looking to target corporations and limiting options makes support easier, but I have always felt that KDE's approach is much better. Give the users all the options they could imagine and then let them decide what is best. With KDE's approach you can always have some sort of locked down "corporate default" setting that would make support easier but with Gnome's approach what do you do when a user wants a feature that has been removed?

Re:Is KDE Taking the Lead?

[Niten]

No, there's a huge difference between removing options and leaving advanced under-the-hood features, well, under the hood.

GNOME takes very much the same approach as OS X here. For instance, in order to let users adjust how Spaces handles new windows popping up in different workplaces, Apple didn't throw yet another checkbox into some huge and unnavigable control panel. Rather, they left it as an option to be configured with defaults write com.apple.Dock ..., because 95% of users won't want to change this behavior, and those who do won't have any trouble figuring out defaults write anyway.

Likewise, a lot of obscure GNOME / Metacity / GTK+ configuration options that aren't wasting space on a control panel somewhere are still accessible through GConf or a separate configuration file. I'm an "advanced" user, and I like this because it gives me less junk to hunt through when I want to change something in the GUI; and I know many "beginner" users who appreciate GNOME for the very same reason.

Re:

[HappySmileMan]

because 95% of users won't want to change this behavior, and those who do won't have any trouble figuring out defaults write anyway.

Well when I was using GNOME there were many things I wanted to change, and I had trouble figuring out how to change them, eventually I managed to change half of them and was told the other half were impossible to change "because people generally don't want to change that" or some shit like that.

I'm sorry for not figuring out GNOME, but somehow on KDE I can change anything I want (to be fair, 4.0 is missing a lot of configuration dialogs for plasma, but that's temporary, they'll be back in 4.1 or 4.2, wh

Re:

[HalAtWork]

with Gnome's approach what do you do when a user wants a feature that has been removed?

You write a basic task-oriented application. You could argue that Gnome is a more modular approach while KDE is a more monolithic approach.

Re:

[Chineseyes]

Desktop icons were deprecated in favor of a folder view applet, that you can have on your desktop, so you can still have desktop icons on your desktop via the applet.

From Aaron Seigo's blog:

"Hey!" I hear you say, "I see icons on that desktop!" That's quite right. (And, I must say, you are quite observant today. ;) So what was a mumbling about earlier then when I said the icons were gone?

Well, we now have a folder view applet courtesy of Frederik Höglund. It can view any folder you want, inclu

Re:

[cloakable]

It does that? Nifty, that'll make groupings of icons much easier.

Re:

[harry666t]

Icons are not going away. Fact, in 4.1 you will have them only as in a Plasma applet, but with 4.2 they'll be coming back in their full glory, but as a part of a more modularized and flexible desktop. RTFA before you rant.

Oh, wait, this is /.

Nevermind

Re:Is KDE Taking the Lead?

[Hoplite3]

I use KDE, but I don't think Gnome has fallen behind. I'd say both are about at the same level.

If anything, the big tragedy is all of the stuff that's now done by KDE/Gnome that should be done by non-X related systems. Wifi association, laptop power stuff, suspend/resume functionality, and so on... all of these things are now handled through Gnome and KDE subsystems to some degree, rather than handled by a non-X related program that communicates to some graphical widget.

There's been a big loss of separation between parts. It's a shame.

Re:

[PitaBred]

Naah. They're handled through freedesktop.org interfaces. NetworkManager, powernowd, all that just provide hooks that KDE and Gnome take advantage of with their controller widgets. It's the same underpinnings, just a different fascia depending on the DE.

Re:

[Hoplite3]

Ah, but set the rules for what happens when you close the laptop lid in Gnome, then fire up KDE and close the lid ... the result is the default for KDE.

Likewise, log in to a VT rather than an X session. NetworkManager won't associate with any known basepoint around at login. nmtool doesn't even have the ability to force a connection.

Re:Is KDE Taking the Lead?

[theJavaMan]

I would say it's the design philosophy. Gnome says "Do this our way, because it is better" (see the ok-cancel button debate). KDE says "You can do it this way, but you can also configure your own way".

Re:

[10Ghz]

KDE 4.1 has completely removed the ability to put files or icons on the desktop [blogspot.com].

No they haven't, and claiming that they have only makes you an idiot. For starters, the new method is more flexible and powerful. Previously, you had a desktop-folder that had all the stuff that was in your desktop. This new way allows you to have several such folders which contents is displayed on the desktop. You can also have filters that only show certain type of files, instead of shoving all the files in the folder.

In the future you could have an automated system that changes according to the app you

Re:Is KDE Taking the Lead?

[cozziewozzie]

The KDE team has been rewriting/porting basically everything over to Qt4, which was a gargantuan task.

During this time, they used the opportunity to fix some long-standing issues and redesign some key components. Things were broken and in development for a long time, while the stable release 3.5.x went into bugfixing mode. Gnome was making steady improvements to their 2.x codebase this entire time.

KDE is only now starting to reap the fruits of this effort. The real power of the platform will become more obvious in the coming years.

Re:

[SanityInAnarchy]

Ever since they started on KDE 4, they seem to have decided to run the entire project as if it were a perpetual beta. Something doesn't work? Rewrite it! Can't finish the feature on time? Release anyway!

And because of this, it should have been called a beta. They tell me that 4.2 will finally be ready...

Unless they go back to their previous development method where they actually gave a shit about quality, I'm afraid KDE will plummet in popularity. I've already switched away from it.

Well, I find that 3.5 is still more usable than anything else, so I'm staying with that until 4 becomes usable. If it never does, I'll write my own.

No, I'm not kidding about that last part. Probably start with DWM or something -- I don't need that much out of a WM/desktop environment. Just a few more features to Fluxbox or Compiz and I'll be happy.

Re:

[scorp1us]

Well, KDE uses Qt. Qt is commercial, and has commercial funding in addition to its opensource side. I've always suggested that commercial corporations can have better direction than undirected opensource scratch-an-itch development. (That is not to say that all opensource development is scratch-an-itch. I'd never be so naive.) Really, KDE4 is just riding on the back of Qt4, which tries to make money by getting commercial developers to buy it. And I think that's where it is different from GTK/GNOME. GTK/GNOM

Re:Is KDE Taking the Lead?

[__aabvlw4075]

I've been using linux since 1999, and in that time I don't recall there ever being a moment when it would make any sense to say that KDE didn't seem as capable as GNOME. Some people prefer GNOME's appearance, design philosophy, or set of apps to KDE's -- and vice versa -- but when it comes to capabilities, KDE has always (at least since '99) been the clear winner. In fact, lack of capabilities is GNOME's selling point -- less capabilities means a simpler interface that many people prefer.

Re:

[QCompson]

Gnome has always been behind KDE when it comes to features and configurability.

Not anymore. Have you tried KDE4?

Re:

[SanityInAnarchy]

They tell me that most of the features are still there, just in config files (without GUI dialogs).

They also tell me that a lot is coming back in 4.1, and that 4.2 will be fully ready to take over from kde3.

Am I Missing Something?

[rhartness]

I'm looking at the screen shots and I'm wondering with a couple of them-- What's up with the jaggies? Is it really that difficult to implement a little anti-aliasing on the edges of the apps when you apply certain effects?

Re:

[Fez]

I can't get to TFA to check the screenshots, but it may be the same as Gnome in my case. On one of my systems I have running Ubuntu 8.04, some compiz effects have jagged edges. It is especially noticeable with the Wobbly Windows effect.

I may have an option turned off, something misconfigured, or perhaps AA is only used for higher-end video cards than I have.

Re:Am I Missing Something?

[bersl2]

What video card(s)/driver(s) are you using?

Mesa doesn't support AA IIRC.

Re:

[Fez]

On that box I'm using Nvidia's binary drivers on an NV18-based GeForce4 MX440.

Re:

[Fez]

Hate to reply to myself but there is another detail: I am using the nvidia-glx driver, as that card did not seem to take to well to the most recent set of drivers. I might try it again, though.

Re:

[SanityInAnarchy]

From what I remember, Beryl (the Compiz fork that everyone used until it was merged again) never supported antialiasing. I don't remember what the reason was, but I suspect that there's something that makes it tricky to apply these effects to a desktop (versus a game).

Re:

[Fez]

It doesn't bother me at all, so I haven't given it much concern.

It may also chew up too much CPU or GPU time to use it on a desktop, more than any perceived benefit.

Beta?

[Anonymous Coward]

"The KDE Project is proud to announce the first beta release of KDE 4.1. Beta 1"

What?! The first beta of beta?

Re:Beta?

[Ungrounded Lightning]

"The KDE Project is proud to announce the first beta release of KDE 4.1. Beta 1"

What?! The first beta of beta?

Naw. The Department of Redundancy Department got its hands on the press release.

Re:

[Jesus_666]

Actually, they included rounded corners and JavaScript, which allowed them to add gratuitous AJAX. The result is KDE 4.1 2.0 Beta. Since it's not entirely done yet and they're still testing they released a beta version, KDE 4.1 2.0 Beta Beta.

Re:Ob

[pak9rabid]

Does it run on linux?

More importantly, does it not rely on KDE3 apps anymore?

Re:

[SanityInAnarchy]

I remember KDE4 being able to run without KDE3 apps, so long as I didn't want to use the apps (Kontact, AmaroK) that hadn't been ported yet.

Does it actually use KDE3 somewhere under the hood? Or did you mean you want more apps to be ported?

Re:

[HappySmileMan]

I think he means he wants apps ported. It obviously doesn't run KDE3 under the hood, or it wouldn't be KDE4, it'd be a very different version of KDE3. However Amarok, K3B, Kontact and Konversation, among others, haven't been ported yet

Re:Ob

[wizardforce]

depends on what linux distro you're using. so far there are packages for mandriva, opensuse, debian and fedora. the release has also been ported to windows and mac with a set of packages for kubuntu coming up in a little bit however you can compile from source if you really really need to have the beta on other distros/OSes

Re:Links Please

[mpapet]

I'd love to apt-get it on my Debian Lenny boxes. Can you post sources.list entries please?

Re:Links Please

[wizardforce]

Debian has KDE 4.1beta1 in the experimental branch. debian unstable and experimental should satify the requirements for KDE4.1: eg.
deb http://ftp.de.debian.org/debian/ [debian.org] experimental main non-free contrib
deb-src http://ftp.de.debian.org/debian/ [debian.org] experimental main non-free contrib

Re:Debian Lenny How-to kde4

[mpapet]

Warning, if KDE3 is your working desktop, you may be wise to copy ~/.kde to restore it if KDE4 doesn't work for you.

1. use the url's above minus the [bracketed] words in /etc/apt/sources.list
2. Set pin priority. I borrowed from http://wiki.debian.org/Kde4schroot [debian.org] I also prioritized a couple of packages to be sure they didn't get upgraded. (mythtv-frontend is my biggie)
3. apt-get update
4. aptitude install -t experimental kde4 (this might take a while to calculate a solution that works for your system)
5. Restart X.

Big thanks to the author of the kde4schroot page.

http://wiki.debian.org/Kde4schroot [debian.org]
http://packages.debian.org/experimental/kde4 [debian.org]

Re:Debian Lenny How-to kde4

[Dragonslicer]

This is distribution-specific. At least in Kubuntu, the users' KDE directory is ~/.kde4, which allows you to have both versions installed without them conflicting with each other.

Re:

[cheater512]

It might be a Gentoo patch but my KDE 4 uses .kde4.0 and .kde is a symlink.

Re:

[ArcherB]

Does it run on linux?

I tried to run the 4.0 version on Linux (Linux Mint 4.0). I have to say, NO, it does not run on Linux.

Re:

[wizardforce]

if you're trying to use the debian port, know that Linux Mint being based on Ubuntu which is based on Debian is no longer close enough to use Debian's experimental branch packages. for an experimental beta like this, you would probably be better off either compiling from source [pain in the arse if you ask me] or installing the debian port on debian through a virtual machine of course any of the other OS/port combos would likely work too.

Re:Ob

[ArcherB]

if you're trying to use the debian port, know that Linux Mint being based on Ubuntu which is based on Debian is no longer close enough to use Debian's experimental branch packages. for an experimental beta like this, you would probably be better off either compiling from source [pain in the arse if you ask me] or installing the debian port on debian through a virtual machine of course any of the other OS/port combos would likely work too.

Well, in my case, "Runs" can be measured in terms of degree. Sure, it launched and I was able to put a few widgets (or whatever) on my desktop. I could even launch an app or two before the whole thing fell apart. At one point, I was even able to drag my desktop wallpaper around the desktop as if it were a giant icon.

I am using the what appears to be Kubuntu repo's btw:
http://ppa.launchpad.net/kubuntu-members-kde4/ubuntu/ [launchpad.net]

Re:

[jamstar7]

I gave it a shot on Hardy. Couldn't get Plasma to run stable, so I went back to 3.5.x.

Wake me up when 4.1 is stable.

Re:

[harry666t]

Sure. And on Mac OS X and on Windows too. And even on BSD (although I heard that it is dying).

more like, does it run on FreeBSD

[CDMA_Demo]

[n/t]

Re:Ob

[El_Oscuro]

But does it run on Windows?

Seriously, if there was a Windows version, I could replace the crappy Windows shell with it. I still need Windows for certain critical applications like Rollercoaster Tycoon and Battlezone. Losing the Windows shell (and I.E of course) would reduce the attack surface area somewhat and maybe allow me to connect to the Internet occasionally with it.

By slowly replacing Windows components with Linux ones (OOO, Firefox, KDE), it makes it much easier to convert someone to Linux later.

Re:Ob

[porl]

most of the kde programs are going to be ported to windows, but not the kwin desktop environment itself. so you will be able to run amarok, kate etc in windows, but it will still look like boring old windows with the explorer shell.

porl

KDE on windows

[armanox]

Go check out http://windows.kde.org/ [kde.org]

Re:

[ArcherB]

No. Must be the CLI.

Re:

[ArcherB]

The CLI is not a Desktop Environment, per se.

I run it on my desktop. Is it a notebook environment? :-)

(and I could be wrong, but I believe the proper term is GUI or WM.

Nope! Looks like I really am wrong [wikipedia.org]. You are correct, sir!)

Re:

[junglee_iitk]

JWM

Re:other ob.

[jps25]

*This* is the year of the Linux desktop.

Not for those using Debian...

Re:

[zarr]

*This* is the year of the Linux desktop.

It is. Whether or not the majority of computer users are running it is irrelevant [wordpress.com].

Re:other ob.

[zeromorph]

Or BSD desktop [freebsd.org]?

*ducks*

Re:other ob.

[garett_spencley]

Feel free to mod this redundant or OT but I just ordered a Dell Inspiron 1420N with Ubuntu and I feel really good about it :)

My wife and I have been talking about me getting a laptop for the last 4 years since I work from home, so this is going to give me a lot more mobility. I may finally be able to take a vacation. Anyway I really didn't want to pay the MS Tax and at the same time I wanted to send the message that I want Linux. It's a little ironic that this comes the same day /. posts a story about Dell being hammered in court for false advertising but I really don't care. I've been using Linux since '97/'98 and this is the first time I've bought a computer that's had Linux pre-installed and I can't even begin to tell you how good that feels.

This really IS the year of Linux on the desktop even if most people still don't give a flying fsck.

Re:other ob.

[The Great Pretender]

I appreciate that you're looking for a pat on the back and feel proud about this moment, so for what it's worth Good For You!! You make me proud.

Re:

[carnalforge]

Yes, having an unix underneath a nice graphical desktop environment.

obvious response:

[spazdor]

Does Apple?

Re:

[Tubal-Cain]

x.5 has more features than x.0 or x.1. Who would have guessed? 4.x will eventually outdo 3.5's features. Just not 4.0 or 4.1.

Not that you shouldn't stick with 3.5 if you feel that best serves your needs.

Re:

[HappySmileMan]

Well I can't think of a single feature that's on 3.5 and not on 4.1... But maybe I just didn't use enough of 3.5's features.

Re:4.1 -- Now with no desktop icons!

[zapakh]

Is this is the release that has no more desktop icons [blogspot.com]?

Did you read the rest of that page?

Well, we now have a folder view applet courtesy of Frederik HÃglund. It can view any folder you want, including the desktop folder. You can also set a filter, making it possible to, for instance, view just images or whatever. It uses KIO so you can view remote folders as well. You can drag items to and from it, delete files, scroll, etc. It lines everything up in a nice grid and uses the same drawing routines that Dolphin, Konqueror, KRunner and others use from kdelibs for the icons.

You can have 0, 1 or more of these folder views in your plasma, all viewing different (or the same, I suppose) folders. You can put them on different activity areas (aka "desktop containments") as well.

In the future we'll have a little label in the folderview telling you which folder you are looking at, it will turn into an icon with a menu listing in horizontally constrained containments (e.g. panels), it will be collapsible on the desktop with a single click (it's already resizable, rotatable and removable) and you will be able to use it as a containment itself.

That last bit is important: it means that you can have an Old Skool(tm) desktop with an icon mess if that's what you really, really want. So don't bother with that flame, nobody has anything to complain about. ;)

Nothing about "no more desktop icons"; just that the desktop-icon concept has been reformulated as an instance of something more general and configurable.

Re:

[Abcd1234]

Yes... now you have a big, black box that has to be as big as the area you want icons in. Wow... that's so much more awesome. :)

IMHO, any change like this should at least make it possible to mirror the old way of doing things, in case people like it. Me, I like folders on my desktop... I can put handy things there within easy reach... heck, the whole desktop applet thing is really just an extension of that, and it seems pretty popular to me.

So the question for me is, why not have their cool icon area thin

Re:

[HappySmileMan]

You can ALSO have shortcuts on the desktop, in the exact same way you always have, if I read the comments correctly, Aseigo himself says that. And it will be possible to have it transparent, and any size you want, but I think it has to use Plasma's default theme for now. And you can't really judge it from what it's like now, since it was made less than a week ago and won't officially be finished until July

Re:

[vdboor]

Yes... now you have a big, black box that has to be as big as the area you want icons in. Wow... that's so much more awesome. :)

The plasma developers are aware of the fact that a black box is ugly, but they like to implement the applet background mechanism in a generic clean way first. Not something hackish which causes compatibility issues later.

The idea is the following:

• The folderview can be set as central desktop applet *by design*, to have the old situation if you like.
• In KDE 4.2 (hopefully earlier) the background image can be set for it.
• You can have multiple folder views.
• Each one can display a different folder.

So

Re:4.1 -- Now with no desktop icons!

[Hatta]

That would be the best thing ever. Desktop icons are an abomination. I find myself unable to use them with proper discipline, and my desktop becomes a complete and utter mess. All I can do is use a WM that doesn't support them (fluxbox). I might actually have to check out kde4 now.

Re:

[Hatta]

I'd be pretty surprised if you couldn't theme the icon box to be the same color as the desktop so it's not visible.

In fluxbox, I just use the slit instead of desktop apps. There are plenty of app launcher dock apps to use. They take a little more effort to set up than just dragging an icon onto the desktop, but that makes them harder for me to abuse. A feature, IMHO.

Re:4.1 -- Now with no desktop icons!

[dbcad7]

This is from the "plasma wiki" faq ...

I heard there are no more icons on the desktop in KDE 4.1...
That is not entirely correct. You can have icons and launchers (shortcuts) by dragging
them from Dolphin or the K-menu. What has changed is that the desktop will no longer
display the contents of the Desktop folder. However, you can show an arbitrary number
of folders (local or remote) on your desktop view, instead of being forced to display only
the contents of the "Desktop" folder. To do so, a new applet has been introduced, the
Folder View applet.

I've read it a few times .. and still vague on what the heck they are trying to do.. of course it's probably simpler to use than it sounds.. This whole thing has peaked my interest in KDE though.. I tried 4.0 on another partition, and immediately went back to gnome.. but I'll give 4.1 beta a shot what the hey.

Re:

[HappySmileMan]

It means that icons and launchers will be on desktop in exact same way... But it won't show the contents of Desktop folder... As in, the desktop won't contain FILES, it will contain shortcuts and launchers.

The files will be stored in folders, which can be kept in folderview.

What this means is that you could have more than one folder on your desktop, in separate boxes (which I think WILL be themable separately), you could use much more advanced features, like only show certain file types, you can sort

Re:

[RiotingPacifist]

Now in kde4.1 I have to have a big huge ugly black box around my icons...for no reason. I have used KDE for years over gnome, but this change will make me take a look at gnome again. It's a bad decision forcing users to work in a specific way without being able to configure it....Sounds a lot like gnome to me.

I switched from gnome to kde because I could actually setup my KDE to be MINE, but now the 'usability' experts are creeping in and taking that away. unless unit kontact is more stable in kde4 i have no reason to switch, and even then ill probably keep kde3 for most parts

Re:

[digidave]

"I completely disagree. I put many frequently used icons on my desktop as it speeds up my access to them."

The desktop is covered by one or more windows most of the time, so how is it easier to move or minimize windows to launch a program or browse a directory? Any time one important thing is covered by another important thing, it's broken. That's why I hate desktop widgets, desktop icons, and windows that cover each other (not that I have a better idea for that last one).

From my perspective I think KDE 4.1

Re:One word

[dotancohen]

Are you not aware that Qt4 uses less resources than Qt3? KDE4 is therefore less resource intensive than KDE3 (Or at least will be when the KDE3 apps are rewritten for KDE4. Until then, both Qt3 and Qt4 must be loaded).

Re:One word

[Frekko]

And here is a memory usage test written by a gnome guy a couple of years back for KDE3. Gnome and KDE use more or less the same amount of memory: http://spooky-possum.org/cgi-bin/pyblosxom.cgi/kdevsgnome.html [spooky-possum.org]

So unless our troll is using emacs or windowmaker or something like that for his "desktop environment" he should take his anonymous coward business elsewhere.

Bloat = many apps on a desktop, with few libs

[CarpetShark]

KDE is absolutely not bloated. A modern desktop SHOULD provide a wide range of services to apps --- including net IO, a web browser component, rss, clipboards, drag and drop, color management, printing, contacts, emailing, calendaring, multimedia, threading, event passing, IPC, tagging, database access, URL shortcuts, launching, file management, thumbnails, etc. Many modern apps use these these things, and it makes absolutely no sense for them all to have dis-integrated separate implementations.

If you want to see bloat, look at the apps for any popular desktop that DOESN'T provide a solid, modern, complete core. Run any modern workflow, like quoting a webpage and editing photos to embed in your spell-checked word processor document, to email to someone whose name is all you can recall. Compare memory use, workflow, and integration, AFTER getting used to each desktop for a few months and learning all of the little integration features provided by each solution. I challenge anyone to do it on linux and find a desktop that beats KDE.

Re:

[clampolo]

Gnome has a reputation for being more stable than KDE. On the downside it doesn't have as many features as KDE. (I'm on Gnome, I'm jealous of those sexy screenshots.)

Kind of makes sense that with most of the money coming from business they would rather have something more solid than feature-rich. But this is just a guess on my part.

Re:why dont most distros use kde?

[SiChemist]

Gnome has a reputation for being more stable than KDE. On the downside it doesn't have as many features as KDE. (I'm on Gnome, I'm jealous of those sexy screenshots.)

Reputation for stability among whom? Gnome users? ;-) Seriously, I've been using KDE for years and never had any serious stability problems.

Re:

[Vectronic]

Agreed, I think a lot of people tend to forget that its been some 3 years since KDE 3.5x and basically everything with KDE 4 is still rather beta, whereas Gnome, has for the most part continued its path since 2.0 (6-ish years ago) and thus appears more stable because its more consistent, which arguably could be said is more stable, but I have yet to crash KDE 3.5x...

Disclaimer: I havent used Gnome since about 2001 except for brief periods in Live CD's before installing and switching to KDE... so it may inde

Re:

[donaldm]

All Linux distributions have the option of using KDE or Gnome or any other GUI if you wish, it really is up to your preferences and what is installed on your system. Personally I always install both KDE and Gnome since it gives everyone in my family a choice.

I use Fedora 9 which has KDE 4.0.4-2 (latest update) however I was disappointed when I compare it to KDE 3.5 which seemed to scale its fonts on the task bar correctly. Try putting the KDE 4 task bar to your right or left on the screen, KDE 4 now has a

Re:

[Vectronic]

They do?

Im not sure which distro's you use, but so far every distro I use has a choice between KDE or Gnome (of which i choose the former) aswell as the usual other more lean ones.

There are some distro's that frown upon Gnome aswell (Slackware for example, which happens to be my favorite)

Distro's that come with KDE (not a complete list)
http://www.kde.org/download/distributions.php [kde.org]

Distro's that come with Gnome (Probably not complete)
http://www.gnome.org/~davyd/footware.shtml [gnome.org]

Re:KDE mature enough to drop the annoying K prefix

[halivar]

I kan't stand it, either, komrade.

Re:KDE mature enough to drop the annoying K prefix

[pizzach]

Agh! That's it! I'm just going to switch to Knome!

Re:

[harry666t]

2. I handle this issue by having ":$HOME/bin" added to my PATH and having symlinks to all the apps I use frequently put there. Then I have Win+X bound to a launch box, and I have to type only one or two first letters of a program name to launch it (KWin's launch box is smart enough to remember which programs I use most often). Or do you just look at the program names and repeat them in your head so frequently that you can't stand the K letter anymore? Then you have a different sort of problem...

Re:KDE mature enough to drop the annoying K prefix

[Just Some Guy]

Drop the stupid K prefix.

iThere iAre iTwo iOther iCompeting gschools gof gthough, i'll grant iou.

Re:

[Just Some Guy]

That's stupid, GNOME has stopped using 'g' on their names long ago.

So has KDE for new applications: [wikipedia.org]

Phonon
Solid
Plasma
Gwenview
Decibel
Strigi
Soprano
Dolphin

Sure, there are the obligatory "K" apps, many of them having been around for quite a few years and unlikely to change names for no good reason. The new stuff is pretty unconstrained, though, and certainly no more so than their Gnome counterparts.

Re:

[SanityInAnarchy]

1. Let us disable the underlined letters in UI elements that signify the accelerators

I'm curious -- why? At the very least, I hope it stays in there by default.

2. Drop the stupid K prefix.

Tell you what, we'll do that when Apple drops the stupid i prefix.

Re:

[pizzach]

Okay, lets play a little game for giggles. I want to to name at least 10 major KDE programs that don't have an obnoxious "k" in them. I'll take care of Mac OS and Gnome. Mac apps without a prefixed "i" in the name made by Apple:

1. Finder
2. Address Book
3. Automater
4. Calculator
5. Dashboard
6. Chess
7. Dvd Player
8. Image Capture
9. Mail
10. Preview
11. Quicktime
12. Sherlock
13. Stickies
14. Spot Light
15. Final Cut Pro
16. Aperture
17. Dock
18. expose

Gnome apps without a prefixed "g" included with Gnome:

1. Tomboy
2. Beagle
3. File-roller
4. AisleRiot Solitaire
5. glches