Gaffes That Keep IT Geeks From the Boardroom 652
buzzardsbay writes "Yes, it's all in good fun to point out the mismatched belt and shoes and the atrocious hairstyles, but honestly, I'm committing three of these errors right now! Is that why I can't get a key to the executive washroom? Or is it my rebellious attitude and pungent man-scent that's keeping me down? The shocker in here was pigtails on women... I love pigtails on women!"
Slashdot (Score:5, Insightful)
Re:Slashdot (Score:5, Funny)
Re:Slashdot (Score:5, Funny)
Re:Slashdot (Score:5, Funny)
Re:Slashdot (Score:5, Insightful)
Re:Slashdot (Score:5, Insightful)
Find another job if you cannot work with your boss. If you want to ever be "management" and you find your boss "an idiot". Well, then you're not cut out to be management or certainly not in that firm. Sitting around smoothtalking waiting for a promotion from someone who you think is an idiot? right..
That wont make you management. It makes you a suckup who's running after a dangling carrot without charisma and reliability: you'll just agree when sometimes you have to disagree with your boss and let him know why. Who constantly wonders why there aren't offers for promotion and sit waiting while serving "the master". bah. Then resorting to passive agressiveness because you feel you deserve a promotion yet cannot deliver?I've gotten many management position offers, being 26, in international companies. Not by sucking up, but by getting things done, going outside of my "safety zone" or unexepectedly pulling projects straight. (I'm a consultant software developer)
I'm too young for management, and I like to code more then management. Yet sucking up or "pleasing" the master isn't the way to go. I've been in such a firm before where that was expected. I wouldn't last a day anymore and would refuse projects for firms like that.
Re:Slashdot (Score:5, Insightful)
First, you not only quote out of context, but you completely fail to understand the poster's point. In the grandparent post, it says "People who do care about what other people wear are ignorant and should spend their time on things that actually matter" and the parent poster responds "Unfortunately your boss is one of those idiots that pays attention to what other people wear". This says nothing about working with one's boss, nor does it say he thinks his boss is an idiot.
Second, you are wrong when you say impressing one's boss won't lead to a management positions. You mistake looking professional and impressing one's boss with sucking up and being a yes-man. One does not imply or require the other. Also, you state you have been offered "management position offers, being 26, in international companies", but I noticed you didn't say you were being promoted inside your company. This leads me to believe that you are not progressing inside your company but rather companies are trying to hire you away. That is not getting a promotion, and getting promoted is what the other poster was talking about.
And, to be honest, I find it amazing that any company would want you in a management position given your attitude, poor reading comprehension, and poor communication skills. I am willing to bet what you consider a "management" position is really a low-level mid-management position where you would not be making decisions, but rather herding other programmers or acting as a project manager.
Re:Slashdot (Score:5, Insightful)
Re:Slashdot (Score:4, Funny)
Find another job if you cannot work with your boss.
There are BOFH alternative approaches to the problem, of course...
Re:Slashdot (Score:4, Funny)
Who needs that, anyway? (Score:5, Insightful)
Well, I will have to make sure I wear my brown belt more often (I only own one pair of office-quality shoes, and they're black).
I don't want to be management. I like being a programmer and sysadmin, and I'm good at it. I don't think I'd be that good at management.
And since I have the ear of the person who is, for all intents and purposes, the IT Manager, I have a good amount of say in what goes on (when I want to) anyway ;-)
Dan Aris
When dressing for success, be an Einstein (Score:5, Insightful)
I have 30 identical pairs of black socks. All purchased on the same day from the same store. When I grab two socks out of the drawer they ALWAYS match. They will all be faded and lose their elasticity around the same time. They will all be brought to Goodwill at the same time, and I will buy 30 new pairs at that time. Enough on socks.
I have 15 pairs of dark pants. A few black, a few navy and mostly various shades of gray. All the pants can go with basically any of my shirts (mostly).
I have 20 long sleeve, button up shirts. Almost all solid colors. The only acceptably pattern is vertical pin stripes. Always wear a v-neck undershirt.
Two pair of simple, polished black shoes and a couple of black belts.
There you have it. You do not have to do wash for two weeks at a time. You never have to "match socks". You never have to match shirts to pants. You always look good and feel good without having to put forth mental effort.
Hey, programmers are elite. Those other "artists" dress in jeans one day and silk suits the next. I just wanna look good and get a little respect. Management is for people who do not know how to code anyway.
Re:When dressing for success, be an Einstein (Score:5, Funny)
Re:Who needs that, anyway? (Score:4, Interesting)
YOu might also want to look into the quality shoe thing more...if you want chicks!
Yep....women are ALL about shoes, and not just for themselves, apparently they put a good deal of importance in men who wear nice and often $$$ shoes. And if you spring for good shoes, you're probably gonna match the belt with them too.
Don't get me wrong...I missed out on this a LONG time, but, it does seem to be true.
So, dressing well, presenting oneself well can mean chicks and a promotion to higher 'office'.
Re:Who needs that, anyway? (Score:5, Insightful)
Speaking as a woman who couldn't give a rat's red behind about what shoes you are wearing, I think that this is an oversimplification. If you want that type of girl, then the shoes you wear, the car you drive, whether or not you know the right people will all influence whether or not she'll even give you the time of day. If you don't want that type of girl, then it really doesn't matter all that much. It is the same principle with the girls I know complaining that every guy they meet just wants their body. So I reply to them - well, stop meeting all the guys in bars! If you are doing things that attract a certain type of person - the type you don't really want - in an effort to find that one other person who is doing the same thing you are, chances are pretty good that you'll never find them. If you're not naturally the type of person to give a darn about expensive shoes, then don't put up a front. You'll be more likely to find someone you mesh with if you just be yourself.
Okay, mini-rant done.
Re:Who needs that, anyway? (Score:4, Informative)
It seems to me then that the type of girl who is interested in how much money you make (and whether or not you spend it on expensive status symbols ie shoes) is just your type of girl. I hope you find one.
You may feel I'm in the minority, but there is plenty of "normal" girls (or even geek girls) who are neither the 'nature girls' nor trailer trash - who, by the way, care the MOST about whether or not you make enough money, incidentally. These are girls who don't feel that they are super-model pretty, who don't go out of their way to be gold diggers and who are just your average girl-next-door type. We might want our guys to look good, but whether or not they have enough money to buy expensive status symbols (and, in correlation, will spend tons of money on us) isn't really relevant. We mostly want a guy who will pay attention to us without his checkbook and someone we can get along with.
And to say that all a guy is interested in is a woman's body is, I feel, grossly unfair to every guy I know. Yes, the first thought thorough anyone's head when they see an attractive person is sexual, but that doesn't mean that everyone is always only thinking about sex. It also doesn't mean that every guy out there is a slave to his penis and can't even think well enough to contemplate an actual relationship with someone. That's a bs excuse that too many guys hide behind - your penis isn't the master in the relationship, no matter how badly you want sex. Want to know how I know this? Because, even if you are so hard up you think you might go blind and you're on your 20th bottle of lotion this week, there are still some girls you just wouldn't even consider touching. This means that your brain is in drive, and you can't weasel your way out with that old excuse. To me, it's just as bs as girls saying they get to behave like total hellions during "that time of the month". It's bs - your uncomfortable and feel crappy, fine, but you are choosing to act the way you are acting so just own up to it and stop trying to find some excuse that lets you off the hook.
I have known many guys who aren't even interested in one-night stands because they want a meaningful relationship first. I've known guys who have turned down pretty girls because they just didn't have anything in common with them enough to warrant a relationship (which is what the girl wanted). Just because you seem to have this cynical view on sex and don't care where you put your penis doesn't mean you get to generalize for your sex.
Re:Slashdot (Score:5, Informative)
Actually, most people notice clothing a lot more than they realize. In most business situations, someone wearing a shirt, tie, and slacks will get a lot more respect than someone wearing jeans and a t-shirt.
I work in a job where I could get away with wearing jeans and a t-shirt. A lot of my time is spent crawling around under people's desks or in the ceilings, trying to get broken network connections working (I'm glad to say I had nothing to do with the wiring in this building, so I can blame someone else. Instead, I wear nice (non-stained, non-faded, non-ripped) jeans and a button down shirt. I get a lot more respect from management than some of my co-workers do.
Now, "mismatched shoes and belt" is a little overboard, and no-one around here would notice, but overall appearance makes a big difference.
Re:Slashdot (Score:5, Insightful)
Not replying to your ideas, just your syntax to make a point.
People who are at least slightly fashion conscious (that is, most people) regard mismatched shoes and belt, or mismatched clothing and situation, as programmers regard mismatched parenthesis. It's just uncomfortable to look at.
Re:Slashdot (Score:5, Interesting)
We ask the non geeks to avoid downloading bonzai buddy and anything similar, they ask us to match our belt to our shoes. How hard can it be for everyone to just follow these small pieces of advice?
Not that my dress is perfect either, but... (Score:5, Insightful)
Several years ago I was working in a job I didn't intend to keep for long. I made a good impression on one of the guys on my team there.
Flash forward to a few years later and I'm working somewhere else at a job I hated. Long story short, I was lied to in a bad way during the interview process and the job was completely unlike the answers I had gotten to my questions while interviewing. Out of the blue I was offered a much better job because of the guy at the first job.
My story is more about quality of work than matching belts, but it never hurts to make a better impression when you can.
Re:Not that my dress is perfect either, but... (Score:5, Interesting)
My workplace is business-casual, but nobody really says anything if we push the limits of that. I'm a software developer who's just a few years out of school, and I hadn't been making much of an effort to look nice, largely because I was still dirt poor and didn't have decent clothes.
Well, before long my financial situation started to improve (paying off debts from school and old medical bills, etc). I made a resolution to start dressing nicer. Over a long weekend, I went out my wife helped me pick out bunch of new clothes. Still business casual, but toward the nicer end of that. Slacks and nice button up shirts and the like.
So, on Monday I come in dressed up significantly nicer than usual. Then, shortly after lunch, my wife calls me. She's feeling lousy and wants me to take her to the hospital. I go tell my boss that I need to leave for the day, and he looks me up and down, realizes that I'm dressed much nicer than usual, and leaving early.
So, obviously, he jumps to the conclusion that I'm off interviewing at another job. Within a week I had a sit down with my boss and his boss, and they're giving me a 10% raise and a promotion, just out of the blue. They said it's because they're really happy with the work I've been doing, and I just deserve it. I hope that's at least partially true, but I'm totally sure the impetus the clothes.
Of course, this is more an argument for keeping your bosses on their toes than for dressing nicely every day, but I still like the story.
Why you should look nice... (Score:3, Interesting)
One of the ongoing sources of fights in my marriage was that my wife wanted me to pay more attention to what I wore. I tried, some, but my heart wasn't in it, and frankly, my three year old has a better sense of what matches than I do.
After many years, we hit on a solution. She took complete charge of my clothing - she picks out and buys everything, and throws stuff away. And she occ
Re:Slashdot (Score:5, Funny)
Why would I even want to be in the Boardroom (Score:5, Insightful)
Re:Why would I even want to be in the Boardroom (Score:5, Interesting)
T-shirts and jeans!
Re:Why would I even want to be in the Boardroom (Score:5, Insightful)
No, as an MBA jerk, I can assure you I have no jealousy of IT whatsoever.
That list was written by a hack journo with no intent to reflect anyone's real world attitudes and every intent of boosting ad impressions by getting it posted to Slashdot and Reddit.
It's a shallow swipe at some IT stereotypes, nothing more. It should be in some internet scrapheap, not the front page.
Re:Why would I even want to be in the Boardroom (Score:5, Funny)
"Quick, name one executive's bio photo that shows him or her wearing a billowy floral shirt? Zzzt! Times up! Wear these on vacation if you must, but don't show up to a quarterly meeting in one of these numbers."
Pfft. Evidently the author has never been to an APEC conference [wikimedia.org].
See? That's why he's a jerk ... (Score:3, Funny)
Anyway, I concur with your opinion of the article
Re: (Score:3, Informative)
That list was written by a hack journo with no intent to reflect anyone's real world attitudes and every intent of boosting ad impressions by getting it posted to Slashdot and Reddit.
No, it does reflect real world attitudes. A few years ago I got a haircut and started wearing a suit to work, and suddenly started getting promotions (I don't work there any more, by the way, and don't have enough hair left to be worth cutting). They may not be attitudes we like, but they're real-world attitudes.
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My personal clothing style is
- Combat boots
- Baggy combat-style pants
- Tshirt
- Hoodie.
I've changed clothes, like, four times since I came here half a year ago.
Re:Why would I even want to be in the Boardroom (Score:5, Funny)
See, management would likely not let you in the boardroom because you probably look like you're going to go postal and kill everyone.
Re:Why would I even want to be in the Boardroom (Score:5, Insightful)
In one job I had flexitime, but then we got new management in and tied a 5k GBP pay rise to loosing the flexi. I rejected the pay rise cause I liked the flexibility. They didn't understand why someone would turn down the extra money.
Another one was leaving a job and taking over 50% pay cut to get a more relaxed job not in the city. Lifestyle and lack of stress is worth more than money (once you've enough to cover all the bills).
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A lot of IT jobs give bonuses (for utilization or meeting SLAs). But bonuses are taxed at the highest rates. So when offered or negotiating bonuses, I find it makes more sense to go for salary increases; you can forgo a 10% bonus for a 5% raise and your takehome is actually more (and the bosses are happier).
This is why when we look at jobs we need to look beyond the salary and deep, deep into the whole benefits package and "what makes you happy."
Re:Why would I even want to be in the Boardroom (Score:5, Informative)
What might be confusing the issue is that I believe the IRS has larger withholding requirements for bonus payments, but the withholding is just to make sure you have paid enough by tax time -- if it was set too high you'll get a refund. This makes it look like take-home pay is lower than it really is.
Correct (Score:5, Informative)
So, in real terms, it is 6 one way and half a dozen the other. ie: there is no benefit one way or the other.
You just have to wait until you file taxes to get that "extra withholdings" back. But you do get some back (assuming your tax rate is less than 42%). They do this to make sure people don't get some large bonus, go spend it, and then not be able to pay the tax on that bonus when it is due next April 15th. Makes sense but I, personally, don't like giving the government interest free loans so I tend to offset my bonus withholdings by decreasing the withholdings on my monthly paycheck.
Re:Why would I even want to be in the Boardroom (Score:5, Funny)
Telling a PHB (or a lot of slashdotters even) there is anything more important than money is like telling a Muslim there is something more important than Allah.
Re:Why would I even want to be in the Boardroom (Score:5, Funny)
I don't get it, wouldn't you WANT the flex time to be looser? Getting looser flex time and more money would be fine by me!
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My worst day at work for my current
Most of this is true (Score:3, Informative)
Re:Why would I even want to be in the Boardroom (Score:5, Insightful)
It's not about suits (Score:3)
A suit should be as comfortable as a pair of pajamas.
Of course, this means getting properly fitted by a tailor, especially the shirt. If you think about shirts, they can't possibly fit every body perfectly. Some people probably should have custom tailored shirts. It's expensive, but as in many things having to do with clothing, men have it a lot better than women. Men only need two pairs of quality d
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Re:Suits do give a first impression (Score:5, Insightful)
This is perhaps an example of those "great social skills," but some might call it "social intelligence." I'm hardly a social butterfly--actually, something of an introvert--but I know how to handle surly know-it-all geeks and this is why I keep getting hired again and again.
The key to your employment, on the other hand, is your technical skills. You picked a field that fits you, which is great...A little social skill would probably help out but it doesn't need to be your bread & butter. We occupy differ niches, is all.
Stuffed Shirts and Suits in summer (Score:5, Interesting)
Re:Stuffed Shirts and Suits in summer (Score:5, Funny)
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Black Suits Are the Real Faux Pas (Score:5, Interesting)
You know, since we're on the subject of fashion, I want to err the gripe I have about the black suit. It has been making a comeback in business attire, and for the life of me I cannot figure out why.
First, the social argument against the black suit. Traditionally, black suits were the province of the help or the dead (i.e., butlers and funerals). Black dye was cheap, and the suit color looked austere which is why they perfect for funerals and the help since it never drew attention. In fact black was so verboten, famous clothier Brooks Brothers did not even offer an off the rack black suit until the 1990s, because Abraham Lincoln was assassinated in one. Source [wikipedia.org]. Why, given its history, that its come back in fashion I do not understand.
Second, the practical argument. You are completely right in that black suits are absolutely miserable to wear in the summer. They also tend to get noticably washed out faster from dry cleaning. They also are show absolutely no originality or as Office Space would say, "flare." A black suit, IMO, shows that a person put less thought into getting dressed than a person who wears sock/sandals and a big Hawaiian shirt. At least those things exhibit character.
I've had this rant building in me for a while, so it feels good to get it out, but if I had one piece of fashion advice to give to fellow geeks its: DON'T WHERE A BLACK SUIT! A simple navy, charcoal, or sharkskin suit will do much to set you apart from bland tasteless masses that insist on only wearing black.
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I suspect black made a comeback partly because it provides several good alternative outfits for women: black skirt + top, black pants + top, and black pantsuit, and the last two can be worn with either heels or flats. Purchasing one black skirt and one black pantsuit thus goes a long way.
Re:Black Suits Are the Real Faux Pas (Score:5, Interesting)
Provided that you have sufficient funds for more than one suit (and at $250 including tailoring for a cheap suit, it should be too much of a problem), the black suit should be worn only at funerals.
Job interviews require a navy, dark brown, or dark grey suit -- navy is best, and the preferred material is a light wool. A very subtle pinstripe is good, and can be a way of adding "flare" within the requirements of a formal business environment. Note that a dark grey suit can also be used as your funeral suit.
If you must wear a jacket & tie at work, then wear anything but black.
As for people sweating in suits during the summer, one reason for that is most suits are three-season suits. It's just not appropriate to wear a ool suit in summer. An investment in two (or possibly three) summer-weight suits is a very good idea. Matte silk or rough-woven silk suits can be purchased for less than $300, and make a world of difference. Usually these are in lighter colors as well, and can also function as the de rigeur 'wedding suit'. If you're in a more relaxed area, you might be able to get away with a sport coat instead of a summer-weight suit.
In short, I think everyone should own a dark grey wool suit, a navy (or possibly brown) wool suit, and one summer-weight suit (light grey or dark green are good choices). Following those, a black suit for funerals (and those of us who've been around a while know how often we need to wear it, unfortunately). After that, the suits you purchase should reflect your needs.
I don't need to wear a suit to work anymore, so I wear three suits -- one for interviews, one for funerals, and one for weddings, basically. The other three suits I own are gathering dust in my closet, as I rarely need to wear them -- usually when I have two weddings in one weekend, for example.
Re:Stuffed Shirts and Suits in summer (Score:5, Interesting)
Re:Stuffed Shirts and Suits in summer (Score:5, Insightful)
Re:Stuffed Shirts and Suits in summer (Score:5, Insightful)
Re:Stuffed Shirts and Suits in summer (Score:5, Interesting)
Not really. Computers have to run hot, and so have to be kept cool some way. Humans don't have to wear a suit to work.
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Re:Why would I even want to be in the Boardroom (Score:5, Interesting)
That sort of elitist thinking ("programming sounds far more fun than managing things and people") is part of the culture that keeps IT and engineering staff out of decision making positions. You're looking at the business from your perpective and yours only, and announcing it to everyone.
Building a business, building a team, management -- they're all forms of creative problem solving every bit as "fun" or creative as programming is. In fact, imaging programming for a CPU whose instructions have unpredictable execution speeds and results.
Management isn't generally a bunch of PHB's who flail around with no idea what they're doing. Just as there are good engineers and bad engineers, the same is true of people who build and run businesses, but good or bad they're doing the same thing you're doing -- they're engineering teams or a business just as you are engineering classes or applications.
Recognizing that will get you a long ways towards getting into the sort of position in a company where you can do what you find fun *and* have the influence needed to ensure decisions that impact areas of your responsibility are made correctly. Ignoring it will leave you forever being the monkey who has to jump when asked.
Re:Why would I even want to be in the Boardroom (Score:4, Insightful)
Then it wouldn't be programming anymore, it would be guessing. Sure, you can make best guesses, but that's it. Management is trying to make "best guesses" so that the company will flourish.
Re:Why would I even want to be in the Boardroom (Score:5, Interesting)
Speaking as a contractor who has worked in dozens of companies, led and built teams and generally blurred the line between geek and management, I would say that:
is basically wrong. Generally they are exactly that.
Maybe not in a bricks and mortar business, but in IT that's pretty much exactly what they are. IMHO, of course.
Cheers,
Justin
Re:Why would I even want to be in the Boardroom (Score:5, Insightful)
Re: (Score:3, Informative)
You have a funny idea of what a "nerd" is. What, exactly, is your definition of a nerd? I never met a nerd bureaucrat, or a tax nerd, or a nerd who wore lots of suits.
My definitions come from the traditional places you find out what things are.
The dictionary says: [reference.com]
Well Said (Score:5, Insightful)
You get paid at work because you're useful to someone else. But "low level" employees do their tasks, and that's it. "High quality" employees succeed by figuring out how to constantly be more useful to their boss. Don't confuse this as "sucking up" - creating efficiencies, new opportunities, and helping your boss achieve his tasks means your organization is making more money, and some of that money will get directed to the source if it can be found.
Lower management takes objectives and organizes the people to accomplish them for the middle management. A middle manager strives to hit the benchmarks for the upper management. The upper management strives to keep the profits growing for the CEO. The CEO is redirecting the company and dealing with the board of directors and everyone who wants his ear as the figurehead. Every step is about serving someone else - the CEO is a slave to the Board, who are slaves to the investors, who need the stock price to go up to pay for their retirement or their kids' tuition.
If you want to be paid more, just keep trying to keep the end customer happy.
Re:Why would I even want to be in the Boardroom (Score:5, Interesting)
You need to look around. The Peter Principle [wikipedia.org] is alive and well, and is easy enough to see. Look at all those clueless top management at the Fed, the White House, the banks, etc., - everyone who went against the obvious - that at some point a mortgage is only worth as much as the earning power of the person who is paying it - and brought us yet another crisis.
Why do you think that newer businesses can beat out older established competitors? Part of the reason is that the longer a business has been around, the more positions are filled by people who have been promoted to a position one higher than they are really capable of. So they're not all that competent, and their boss, who refuses to address it, is also incompetent. And his boss, and so on and so on and so on ...
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quite a lot of upper management just have to retire earlier because their health has been silently broken faster than the guy working in construction.
there's a limit where bigger wage just detoriates because of the everyday problems, and in the end the total "income" from that promotion is negative - but you usually don't notice that until it is too late.
Comment removed (Score:5, Insightful)
Re:Why would I even want to be in the Boardroom (Score:5, Funny)
H'mmm... Having been either a technical director or managing director of IT companies for fifteen years, I'm back being just a software engineer. Why? Mostly because I enjoy it more. But I'm sitting here at my desk about to start work, with my long hair and my beard and wearing a cycling jersey. Idiocy about corporate uniform makes me tired; it's just so old. If you don't enjoy what you're doing, stop now. If you don't feel comfortable in what you're wearing, wear something different. Life is too short, and money is frankly just not worth it.
But as a quick aside, the business suit is worn these days by lawyers, politicians, salesmen and the financial services industry - in other words, it's the uniform of the professionally dishonest. Is that really how you want people to see you?
Don't let them in on the secret (Score:3, Interesting)
Seriously, why is it that if an artist dresses like a tramp and snarls at anyone who tries to distract him (or her) while working, that's just how talent operates, but when it's engineers or programmers, that just shows how dysfunctional they are? I think Toby Young had
Re:Don't let them in on the secret (Score:5, Insightful)
Clothes convey a message - you might not like it, but they do.
So you ask: "why is it that if an artist dresses like a tramp and snarls at anyone who tries to distract him (or her) while working, that's just how talent operates, but when it's engineers or programmers, that just shows how dysfunctional they are?"
The answer is - society thinks, of artists as idiosyncratic individuals who can defy social norms as part of their 'work'. It doesn't matter if an artist paints herself green and snarls like a dog, because they don't have to work as a team or manage anyone. The artist is sending a message: 'I don't conform', but that's part of the job description.
Now imagine an engineer or programmer giving exactly the same message: 'I don't conform'. That may not be a hinderance in any way while they are bashing out Perl in a cubicle somewhere. But management requires the manager to conform - to buy into the company's and societies norms - at least to an extent.
So that's why both the artist and the geek will be accepted as artist and geek while dressed as a tramp, but will find it more difficult to become a C*O
Re:Why would I even want to be in the Boardroom (Score:5, Interesting)
I've had customers explicitly state that they feel comfortable about our competence because of the density of Coke-bottles, combat-boots, long-beards, band-shirts, hacker-attitude, incomprehensible posters with inside hacker-jokes, in our offices. These things signal attachment to a subculture, and indicate, to them, someone who lives, breathes thinks, lives code.
Which is just as silly as trusting a salesman because he has a nice suit, but there you go, nobody ever said customers can't be silly.
Who's been following me around? (Score:3, Interesting)
But seriously - do corporate IT folks really wear ties at all? Or is it just the managers (the "I like to pretend I'm a tech guy, but really I'm clueless" folks)?
Re:Who's been following me around? (Score:5, Insightful)
Well yes. And no. (Score:5, Interesting)
First of, wearing a tie or not has nothing to do with your actual competence. Neither is all of IT about tech. Corporate IT is far more then "just" the programmers and the managers. Some of the best people I have met over the years were not all that hot on the tech site but still good IT workers because they could bridge the gaps between the tech guys and the customer.
I am a bit suspicious of either extreme when it comes to dress code. Some people just don't fit in suits (I am one of them) while others only competence is to look good in one. I had this situation years ago when I worked for a small company and didn't have my driving license. I would be sent to the customer with a guy who drove me, that was really all he was good for IT wise, he just didn't have a clue, but he sure did look good in a suit. It was pretty common for us to arrive at the customer and for them to mistake him as the "boss" and me as the helper. I couldn't blame them but it did proof to me that people look at the tie first, competence second (if you are lucky).
However those cases were ALWAYS when the good looking people had screwed up and I had to come in to clean up, so this helped to make me acceptablebecause by this time the bosses were screaming and most bosses are rather down to earth and don't give a shit what the person who shovels the shit away looks like just as long as he is fast. But that doesn't make it any easier to get hired in the first place or to get the "easy" projects, we had a number of customers were I would only go under escort by sales because they had to provide a shield as it were of being dressed right to keep up appearances. A large customer dealing with real estate was one of them, everyone was in suits there, I looked like I was coming to pick up the trash, so thinking back to it we sorta send in the sales guy first to blind them with his outfit so I could do the tech work. For a lot of corporate IT SELLING your tech skills by putting it in a nice package is just as important as having the skills in the first place.
If you are detached somewhere where a full suit and tie is the regular dresscode they are going to have to be sold on your expensive contract by someone they can relate too. If you are REALLY good then a competent sales guy can sell your sandals but you better be REALLY good and you have to accept that for jobs were a really good guy ain't needed, they prefer to sell the guy who is easier on the eyes.
Mind you, there some far nastier versions of this. Females whose skills are sold disguised behind a male because tech guys can't possibly have tits. Don't even get me started on race issues.
Looks matter in the business world where everyone is always trying to sell you something. Goverment and education are different, goverment typically is run by people who just stuck with it for decades and education is were everyone who is to weird ends up, but in "business" it is everyone for themselves and you constantly have to sell yourselve.
So do you have to wear a tie? Well it all depends on what role you have. When you are coding at home or your own office, who cares. When you go to implement it, well, it isn't very comfortable. At the launch party? People should know how good you are by now. But when it is time to sell yourselve, then yes, it is just polite to dress up a bit. In sales, you dress up and if you are unlucky enough to have to be part of the selling of your skills, then looking right helps. A good IT company will help the hopeless with that. I simply arranged at one company that they dressed the worsed offenders of us. Because while going in jeans and a t-shirt is bad, it is even worse if you force these guys to buy a suit because they will screw it up. Send them out shopping at a good store that helps them pick the right outfit and have the company pay for it, keep it at the office and let the secretary handle keeping it clean. Let the people with a clue to dresscode handle the dressing, it might sound childish but it does work and offcourse in plenty of
Pigtails? (Score:5, Funny)
Maybe that is the reason why. Schoolgirl outfits and pigtails go hand in hand. It may be sexist, I won't deny it, but women who do this probably remind the men too much of a strip club and they need all that concentration on how best to screw the consumer
Let's not even touch men with pigtails either
Re:Pigtails? (Score:5, Funny)
Trouble is she's only 22...
Re:Pigtails? (Score:5, Funny)
Jackpot.
Re:Pigtails? (Score:4, Funny)
As a side note. My 36 year old wife just got metal braces and it really does make her look 10-15 years younger. I've got to ask her to put her hair in pigtails and wear a short skirt.... Yum!
Honestly, (Score:5, Funny)
Considering that the board room (Score:5, Insightful)
Real lesson (Score:5, Insightful)
Slideshow (Score:3, Informative)
the answer (Score:4, Funny)
Comment removed (Score:5, Insightful)
Re:But I Don't Want To Be In The Boardroom (Score:5, Insightful)
Re: (Score:3, Interesting)
The trick is to keep communications open with those managers, so that you help them get what they need to do their work (such as QA records, work records, and cooperation with silly corporate polici
Oh damn (Score:5, Funny)
Gaffes That Keep IT Geeks From the Bedroom
I'm so lonely...
Re:Oh damn (Score:5, Insightful)
You might be right. Women don't go for guys who dress like slobs.
This is just another boring story about ... (Score:4, Insightful)
... people that think it's more important to judge people by their looks than by what they can contribute to the job. Sure, if the job is is to look pretty or whatever, then you better be able to do that well. But if the job is to make the database perform well, or keep the network secure, or debug the company application product, then those skills are how a person should be judged ... not on their T-shirt color, length of dread-locks, wearing of sandals even in winter, etc.
OK, bathing every day is good.
Choice of after hours sport might affect things, but it should only be because of who is at the same sporting place at the same time. One group might congregate at the golf course, while another is at the skating rink, and yet another is at the shooting range.
Re:This is just another boring story about ... (Score:5, Insightful)
Communication is the name of the game when it comes to management, and someone who can't communicate who they are through their clothing are probably going to have problems communicating in other ways. Is this the way it should be? Maybe not. But society is built upon judging people, and if you don't try to be judged favorably, don't bitch when you aren't.
Re:This is just another boring story about ... (Score:4, Insightful)
Personally, I work for a nonprofit, mostly from home, so I don't have to worry about my appearance much. On the other hand, I also don't make much money; if I cared enough about money to work in industry, I certainly wouldn't ignore how I look.
presentation (Score:4, Insightful)
inability to swollow bullshit and say nothing (Score:4, Insightful)
No slide show version (Score:5, Informative)
1. Mismatching Shoes and Belt
2. Tie and Short Sleeve Shirt
3. The One Binary Watch
4. Tight Black Jeans
5. Oversized Hawaiian Shirts
6. Socks and Sandals
7. Alternative Hairstyles
8. Concert T-shirts
9. A Closet of Vendor and Trade Show Gear
10. Stains
It's really testament to the shallowness of the boardroom that these are actually taken seriously by those with the ability to promote people. Your plan for upgrading the servers using well-reasoned arguments backed with meticulous research data to save the company megamoney in maintenance well be passed over because they are concentrating on your mismatched belt and shoes instead. >sigh
Re: (Score:3, Interesting)
Ponytail (Score:4, Funny)
Although, "If you knew what you were doing, I wouldn't be here. Why don't you make yourself useful and go get me a cup of coffee. Black," probably runs a close second.
OBEY! (Score:4, Interesting)
Yep: they tell us you can be in charge, but only if you conform and obey. And the person who is above you - he (yep, it is more likely to be a he) got there by conforming and obeying. And all they way up the chain the same rules apply. Except, the geek wonders, what happens at the top? Reduction ad absurdam, guys - who does the top person obey and conform to? Lord Xenu? Some Darth Vader guy who allows himself alone to wear the cool black cape, and everyone else has to wear the regulation grey? Som being of pure energy that is unable to support a tie, and yet can insist on it on others?
Actually, no. I have seen clothing standards spontaneously appear. A clean room was set up. The people who worked in it got to chose the colour of their clean room gowns and shoes. Noboday wanted the white. The people who worked in there went for the light blue. People like me who had occasional buisness there, and needed to use the electron microscope used the deep blue ones. We had white ones for visitors. After about a month, I found I was getting ticked off for wearing the wrong colour gown, even though the gowns didn't actually belong to anybody in particular.
The Scientific Civil Serivce in the UK used to start at jacket and tie, then go to light suits (meaning you didn't do anything too messy or chemical, and could go double jeopardy with matching trousers and jacket. The further up you went, the darker the suit got. However, I could not go and get a perfectly black suit and become King - the system enforced the dress, not the other way around. In the Foreign office things were the other way around - going from dark suites, via light suits, to jacket and trousers, perhaps implying you spent your time in Jakarta, Bejing, Hawaii, and Bongo-Bongo-land, and you are only popping through London. I bet the Queen would rather wear almost anything on her head other than the Regulation Shiny Hat that her office requires for one or two state occasions.
The ancient Romans thought the toga was silly and impractical, but it was traditional, and it was status. The tale of the 47 Ronin was all started by someone being advised to wear the wrong colour of trousers at court. Year yellow stockings cross-gartered at the knee, and you were a fool in Shakespere's day. Come the Revolution, we shall all be wearing Mao suits. if the fashionistas say silly long middle-ages shoes, or ruffs, or bustles, you jump, or you fall behind. Is there truly no escape?
Let me qualify that last cry: is there no escape, that also allows us power, influence, and a decent wage?
Top ten list of ... (Score:4, Insightful)
But much more important than the clothes you wear is the person you are. Are you reliable? Are you life-competent? In all groups it is important to contribute to the group, not just professionally, but also socially. You can fit into a group even if you break a lot of the norms, if you are seen to make important contributions to the group. A bit like the messy old grandpa who seems to be from another planet, but who none the less resolves a lot of family conflicts with his understanding and wisdom.
Your keyboard smell like KFC? Another bad sign (Score:3, Insightful)
On another note I'm an Oracle DBA but I ain't dressing like this?! http://www.dba-oracle.com/dress_code.htm [dba-oracle.com] ; The sad thing is I think he's serious.
Any tech who thinks that they can cut the best code and will one day make it to the top because of the awesome code they've been writing, or problems they've been fixing is living in a fantasy land unless they drastically change something.
The management world is a world away from rational scientific thinking where fortunately/unfortunately some techies live. Management makes decisions based on money and sometimes pride. If you're a techie fixing a problem chances are the senior types are thinking 'hurry up and fix it fatso' but saying to you 'How are you? We really need this fixed, if you could work on it and give me an ETA that would be greeeaat'. If you really want to be "in", you have to start throwing around management mumbo jumbo and acting like a prick to people. Kiss some arse at a few out of work functions, start staying back late and soon you'll be delegating that code cutting to some other 'fatso'.
The problem is the PHB Not Alice or Dilbert (Score:4, Insightful)
Someday I hope to see articles written by clueless hack journalists aimed at the MBA types asking them to wear pocket protectors to impress their came-from-the-IT CEO.
Re:Superficial crap (Score:5, Insightful)
You might be too young to remember, but in 1968 there was a big movement about changing society, authority, ditching old values etc. Today's revolutionaries are pretty tame compared to the the generation of 68. So what became of those revolutionaries and non-conformists? Today, they sit in suits and ties and are exactly those dinosaur managers you accuse of being the establishment incarnate. With Gen X and Gen Y - whatever those may be - exactly the same will happen and fresh approaches to things will be discarded like before.
No, you got it wrong. For them life is to short waste time to figure out if that moron who can't even dress properly has other redeeming values.
More generally speaking, clothes and appearance are the cues you give other people what to think about you. So if you dress like a techie, people will treat you like a techie (which is in short: Fix this and begone). This is perfectly fine, as long as you want that. However if you want to be treated differently (eg being taken seriously by people with decision power) you'll have a hard time. The easiest way to overcome this is send other signals. (eg dress in a cheap ill fitting suit with an atrocious tie for the used car salesman treatment). The extremes in this area are con men, who make it an art to appear a lot more than they are.
Clothes are just a communication protocol: Learn the spec and use it when appropriate.
Re:This is why I might have to stay in academia (Score:5, Informative)
Scientifically speaking, vision (inputs from our eyes) form 80% of our total sensory input (compared to 10% for a Dog).
Hence visually appealing is a battle won 3/4 of the way.
People generally don't place much emphasis on what you speak, if your appearence is Michael jackson or Janet Jackson with wardrobe malfunction. (unless you are proven to be so good like Einstein, but he too had to wear a Tux to make his peers take him seriously).
Which is why some people still love jessica simpson on stage or even Jessica Alba (even though their acting skill would give hiccups to Spielberg).
Probably what we wear does not matter to a dog (which gets 50% of its input from smell, 40% from hearing and 10% visual), since it sees by smell.
But then dogs do not run boardrooms (literally speaking that is).
Satisfied with a scientific answer?