Microsoft Upgrades Vista Kernel in SP1 231
KrispySausage writes "One of the big features discussed in early speculation of Windows Vista SP1 was the kernel upgrade, which was supposed to bring the operating system into line with the Longhorn kernel used in Windows Server 2008. With Vista SP1 going RTM, there hasn't been so much as a peep from Microsoft about the mooted kernel update. Has it happened? Well the answer is yes it has. Presumably the main reason for Microsoft's silence on the subject is that as they're keen to promote the improvements and enhancements to Vista, rather than placing emphasis on a kernel upgrade, which some people might see as a risk of newly-introduced instability."
confused (Score:5, Funny)
Re:confused (Score:5, Insightful)
Re:confused (Score:5, Interesting)
And, of course, as you noted, XP is losing support next year--just as it's running better than ever!
Re:confused (Score:5, Informative)
http://support.microsoft.com/lifecycle/?p1=3223 [microsoft.com]
Re:confused (Score:5, Informative)
When support for a product ends, support of the service packs for that product will also end. The product's support lifecycle supersedes the service pack support policy
Mainstream support for Windows XP Pro ends 4/14/2009, which means they're not going to sell it or add new features to the core OS.
Extended support for Windows XP Pro ends 4/8/2014, which means no new updates at all past that point.
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Me and 2000. Though I hesitate to call LoseMe an OS. Win2K on the other hand was (and still is) very good. I'm still running 2KPro on my home box.
Re:confused (Score:4, Informative)
Windows 3.1 -> Windows 95 -> Windows 98 -> Windows ME -> Windows XP
Windows NT 3.51 -> Windows NT 4.0 -> Windows 2000 -> Windows XP
Although Windows 2000 was really quite usable for most home users (compared to NT4, especially), it was not considered a home-user OS. That niche was filled by Windows ME. The OSs were even released within the same year (about 6 months apart in 2000, if I remember correctly.) XP came just a year later.
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What do you mean, "as a media center"? Can you not use Debian/Ubuntu or something?
Re:confused (Score:4, Interesting)
No. I can't.
I'm talking about as an HTPC, and there's hardware in my system that simply doesn't work with Linux. There are absolutely no drivers for NEC-based TV tuner cards, such as my AverMedia M780. It's a gorgeous card... generates *much* less heat than a similar Hauppauge card does *especially when viewing 1080i HDTV*, better picture, and better ATSC reception than anything else I've tried. Absolutely the best TV tuner card I've found. But it's simply not supported by Linux. And switching to Hauppauge or something else isn't an option, because this is a passively cooled silent PC, and having a tuner card with a block temperature 30'C hotter than the M780 is out of the question.
There *are* Linux-based HTPC options. MythTV, for example. But the lack of support for some of the hardware I have in my system is a deal-breaker. What's the point of having a PVR/HTPC that doesn't have a working TV tuner?
So my HTPC/Media Center runs on Vista. Because in that respect, Vista is better than XP: the interface is better laid out and more intuitive. But in my experience, that's the only way in which it's better.
consumer vs. geek (Score:5, Insightful)
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There's an answer to that. Just promote the word "kernel" until it sounds cool.
"Hey, dude. I just bought a new PC with a fuckin' great kernel, like 100.000 Gigasomething, and all. Yeah, Microsoft rocks!"
Anecdote:
Valves (or tubes) are cool in the music equipment scene, forget that 90% of the buyers have no idea what a valve is, or what's for. In a subway station near me there used to be a shitty little instrument store. One of the items in exhibition was a lousy solid-state guitar amplifier with a
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Re:consumer vs. geek (Score:5, Insightful)
Back in 'the day', Bill Joy said "Operating systems are like underwear - Nobody really wants to look at them." This was true until Linux started getting attention, and MS turned their efforts to becoming a 10-ton monster by selling OSes. Since then, the word OS has morphed into meaning a feature-rich (feature-laden?) bundles of applications along with the software infrastructure required to run them. (Whereas formally the OS is really just the infrastructure itself.)
Now we're talking about kernels. NOBODY other than developers and support folks should need to care about their kernel. In fact, most people don't know what a kernel actually is, and that's OK. In fact, it's even good--it's pointless knowledge for end users.
I'm not one to support MS, but not blathering on about the kernel in end-user release notes is the right thing to do.
Risky Business (Score:5, Funny)
now who would think that? Honestly now, lets see some hands. You in the back, PUT YOUR DAMN HANDS IN THE AIR!
Re:Risky Business (Score:5, Funny)
now who would think that? Honestly now, lets see some hands. You in the back, PUT YOUR DAMN HANDS IN THE AIR!
Risk... (Score:5, Insightful)
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What?! (Score:5, Insightful)
And what does it do. What does the new 0.0.1 add to Windows? Dunno. There isn't a word about it in the article, just some screenshots of version numbers.
How the bloody hell does this make the front page?
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I've been out of the loop for a while... What's the geek news site that has replaced Slashdot? There must be one... Of course that's a rethorical question: anybody who found it would be there and would've stopped reading
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That Windows Vista SP1 would have a kernel upgrade has been known for almost since the start of SP1, easily for months at least.
Articles have even already been written about what the new kernel contains. Even by Microsoft, something this guy doesn't seem to even know!
Here's the deal, although in some sort of "prerelease" form:
http://download.microsoft.com/download/9/c/5/9c5b2167-8017-4bae-9fde-d599 [microsoft.com]
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Here's the deal, although in some sort of "prerelease" form:
http://download.microsoft.com/download/9/c/5/9c5b2167-8017-4bae-9fde-d599bac8184a/kernel-en.doc [microsoft.com]
Oops, sorry, that isn't quite it, it's for the SP1-less Vista and Server Longhorn. Well, some parts of it may apply, because Vista SP1 *is* largely the "Windows Server Longhorn" kernel, now named Windows Server 2008.
Here's something that should be a bit more accurate:
http://download.microsoft.com/download/f/4/a/f4a35b2b-2f62-4104-a3e6-5f7bc1318e9f/Notable%20changes%20in%20Windows%20Vista%20SP1.pdf [microsoft.com]
However, it again doesn't separate the changes in the kernel from the rest, but to a reasonably experienced pro
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I for one see it as a good thing, but yeah it's not newsworth. Anyone who's been following the development of SP1 even a little bit knew there would be a new kernel. That's good as it means MS is addressing bugs and other issues in the current kernel.
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1. suspend / resume
2. memory consumption
3. Finally fixes the horrendous performance when copying files
4. Network performance is excellent even when listening to music.
Overall on a laptop that is not my primary computer I am
The Kernel can't be any better... (Score:5, Funny)
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Please. SP1 has more electrolytes than your body has room for. It'll run so fast they'll think your computer is from Kenya!
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Kenya? You mean, collapsing into flaming rubble in the fight for power and resources?
I was kind of hoping to see a performance review.. (Score:5, Interesting)
I am one of the many who switched back to XP..performance on my tablet stunk with Vista. However, I did like some of the ease-of-use mobility features, but it wasn't worth the grief of performance and drivers.
I would like to run Vista....I just need a compelling reason to do so.
Re:I was kind of hoping to see a performance revie (Score:5, Interesting)
I occasionally game on my unit, so now I'm running an XP/Vista dual-boot, but msot of my work time is in Vista these days. For my unit, it doesn't seem to be appreciably slower than XP was, (but to be fair, I'm not running Aero Glass since the integrated graphics don't support it) and some of the features work noticeably better.
For me specifically:
- Handwriting Recognition is improved. (In both English, and Japanese.)
- Searching was greatly improved.
- Hibernation to file now restores properly every time.
System specs:
Toshiba R15-s822
1.6GHz Pentium M
160GB HD
2GB RAM
Vista Ultimate.
Would you tell me a bit more about your Vista experience? Specifically, was it the over-all experience that sent you running back to XP, or was it the tablet specific features?
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It arrived from the factory with Vista Business, but I became so fed up with issues connecting to wifi that I wiped it and installed XP Pro the same day. After a few weeks of struggling to use my new much-anticipated tablet functionality, and then using a friend's tablet that still had Vista Business, I decided to give Vista another shot. I can't believe I battled XP for so long--maybe the XP drivers are just shoddy for my model, but the tablet was practically unusable (eve
I dont get it (Score:5, Insightful)
Re:I dont get it (Score:4, Interesting)
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My wife would notice that missing very quickly if we downgraded to 2000. And she would fall in the category of "normal user"
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The list kind of goes on like that.
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Or maybe because it doesn't matter much? (Score:2)
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Of course, it *is* just the kernel. There is so much more to a modern OS that it is hard to stay focused on the kernel unless you're a developer.
-matthew
0.0001? Are you kidding? (Score:2)
That's just dumb (Score:5, Insightful)
In other news, Linux v2.6.19.3 was released on February 5, 2007 (6 days after Vista). There have been 75 new kernel releases since then. Source: going to ftp://ftp.kernel.org/pub/linux/kernel/v2.6/ [kernel.org] and counting ChangeLogs since then.
I'm not sure why this is news.
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Look out --> person posts a truth about Linux vs. Windows and gets modded down.
What kind of frustrates me there is that I wasn't saying anything bad about Linux. I only wanted to point out that the Ubuntu desktop I'm using right now gets kernel updates from time to time, and I can't see why that's good for me but bad for Windows users. Maybe I wasn't overly critical enough of Microsoft to satisfy the mod?
Honestly, this really is stupid. There are plenty of legitimate things to hold against Microsoft. Periodically releasing kernel updates isn't one of them. I mean, imagine the
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What kind of frustrates me there is that I wasn't saying anything bad about Linux. I only wanted to point out that the Ubuntu desktop I'm using right now gets kernel updates from time to time, and I can't see why that's good for me but bad for Windows users. Maybe I wasn't overly critical enough of Microsoft to satisfy the mod?
If I were to guess - I'd say trying to turn this in to a "Windows vs. Linux" thing was the first issue for negative moderation. ;) But now that you're hell bent on this path...
I'm not sure this is even an issue. As you noted, it's not a bad thing. But it does kind of highlight some of the cultural differences between Windows and Linux (or Microsoft and Ubuntu / Canonical in this case). Finding a kernal update in Windows takes sleuthing. A kernel update for your Linux distro is normal business. What y
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I was actually trying to turn it away from that.
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You can't expect proprietary software to be well integrated into an OS its authors don't control.
What would be the difference? (Score:2)
Re:What would be the difference? (Score:4, Informative)
What does this mean for Vista SP1? Well, there should be very little reason to use Windows 2008 as a desktop OS. One could imagine that some geek/pro user workloads (network/disk I/O, anyone?) might be improved. On the other hand, these changes should already be in the SP release candidates, and the reviews of those haven't shown any big changes. A practical concern would be that the platforms should be similar from now on, like in the W2K days. I guess that will make at least some hardware vendor developers happy. Maybe this will also mean that additional hotfixes more acutely needed for server scenarios will trickle down to Vista.
Desktop Kernel Instability? (Score:2)
Slightly off topic:
Vista desktop + openldap win32 binaries + apache and bind = GNU Windows Server?
openldap on win32: http://www.openldap.org/lists/openldap-software/200705/msg00152.html [openldap.org]
apache2: http://httpd.apache.org/download.cgi [apache.org]
kerberos5: http://web.mit.edu/Kerberos/kfw-3.2/kfw-3.2.2.html [mit.edu]
Granted, the average win32 admin will hit a wall because Microsoft does not design their product, documents and services for an admin
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I was joking, I know you can't because you were talking out of your ass. Windows 2008+Active Directory is some hard core shit.
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Interoperability.
Windows 2008+Active Directory is some hard core shit.
Not really.
It's clear you really don't understand what you/your employer over-paid for.
Standardize code base (Score:5, Insightful)
This is a smart move. It's easier to develop one kernel than two, so standardizing the two made sense. They've had more time to beat on Server 2008 and test it, and are incorporating those changes.
The end user won't see this, but the end user doesn't care. Their flashy GUI and UAC (snicker) will run faster as a result.
FAIL (Score:2, Interesting)
Vista is a failure. Even though people complained non stop when XP came out, the adoption rate was MASSIVE when compared to Vista.
Microsoft: From the moment the very first Longhorn alpha were leaked to P2P networks, and people got a taste of the new MS vision, Vista was doomed to fail. Even though there was a complete rewrite, it was all downhill from this point.
I suggest y
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I'm running a Compaq, recently took over by HP
That being said
Ignore HP... (Score:2)
Re:FAIL (Score:5, Informative)
First of all, I don't want to use Vista. I now run a half crippled XP because HP refuse point blank to supply XP drivers for this model.
This doesn't necessarily mean that the drivers don't exist. They'll be harder to find though. Here's what you do:
1. Go to Control Panel -> System
2. Click on the Hardware tab
3. Click the Device Manager button
4. For each device with a Red X or Yellow !
a. Right Click and get Properties
b. Click the Details tab
c. Select "Matching Device ID" from the dropdown.
5. Shake Google for those Strings. Sometimes you'll hit paydirt just searching for the part before the ampersand.
You can also use tools like AIDA32 and Unknown Device Identifier to identify the hardware. Once you've identified your hardware, you'll probably do OK with the actual manufacturer's reference drivers. While it's possible that a vendor like HP is using slightly bastardized versions of standard chipsets that thus require custom drivers, that usually isn't the case. You may even be able to get the drivers from HP themselves if there are similar models that were supplied with XP.
"Complete rewrite" a myth (Score:3, Informative)
If Vista SP1 is based on 2008 Server (Score:3, Interesting)
What I had originally heard was that Windows 2008 Server and Vista SP1 were going to be based on XP code for compatibility issues in order to make the OS more stable and more compatible. I am not sure how much XP code was used on the new kernel.
Since I support many friends and family members who have Vista machines, I am thinking of buying a new PC with Vista preinstalled on it, and hopefully SP1 to see if it fixes the problems that the original Vista had. As I recall the original XP also had instability issues and compatibility issues and XP SP1 fixed those, and then XP SP2 made even more improvements and made XP more stable and more compatible.
What I hope is that Vista SP1 ends up being what the original Vista had promised. The only thing is the hardware requirements for Vista are 3 times or more the requirements that XP had. So of course upgrading an XP machine to Vista is going to run it slower. Vista on a newer machine made in 2007/2008 should run a lot better than Vista on a 2004/2005/2006 machine.
If all else fails, I hope that ReactOS [reactos.org] is developed into a stable build in 2008/2009 some time. People need to keep an eye on that open sourced OS. Once it goes into beta testing, it is in alpha right now, but 0.4 or 0.5 will enter Beta testing and be good enough to use as an alternative to Windows.
Keep in mind that Windows 2008 Server is based on Windows 2003 Server, which was based on Windows XP. Windows Vista was not based on Windows XP, but was a rewrite attempt. Vista and Longhorn are actually too different projects, Vista was a rewrite of Windows, while Longhorn was based on Windows XP. At least that is what I heard.
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I'm definitely open to someone with a source
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You have to wonder (Score:5, Insightful)
You know it's not that we don't like new features and upgrades, it's just that by 2007-2008 we expected Microsoft to be better at designing OSs. Should they get an automatic pass with every OS release just because "hey, you know they will get it right by SP2". I say phooey to that. Demand more.
Service Pack 1 (Score:3, Funny)
Codenamed: XP
Kernel Panic? (Score:3, Funny)
I'll be hiding now.
How about speed? (Score:3, Informative)
Dont get me started at audio issues in most games and audio applications, EAX? forgedaboutit!
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The overall design of it may be good but of course there is going to be bugs at this point in the game. It seems like everyone keeps forgetting how complicated an OS is.
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a company which makes 20 billion profit a year with 100000 employees cannot make a stable operating system, where as a couple of guys in their mother's basement (linux programmers) can.
forgive my incredulity here.
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There are several problems with your (implied) argument. I'll only address one for now: You seem to be assuming that what most computer users want from their OS is stability, as opposed to, simply being the same as else's (see http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Network_effect [wikipedia.org])
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Especially MS.
Changing the kernel is a big deal, And defiantly a reason for any large organization to hold off implementation.
While complicated, they ahve been done many times. It's not new and SHOULD be down to a science, literally.
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New OS huh?
Yes.
So they rewrote everything from scratch eh? Completely changed the way we use an operating system?
No and no.
All OSes these days are an evolutionary process. I would argue all software is.
This makes sense since re-inventing the wheel is a waste.
Agreed
Take the old stuff, make some improvements.
Depends.
You're right that a lot of software development is evolutionary. You try not to duplicate work that doesn't need duplicated. Just because don't write (anew) all the code does not imply that it's an update. You may have a good set of libaries that can be used. It's not all solely make improvements to old software. Sometimes the design of the system limits how well you can continue modifying it and then you have to redesign and rewrite it.
I do see where you're coming from,
Re:The real reason why SP1 is not ready (Score:4, Informative)
This has been known almost since Vista's release... where have you been?
Re:The real reason why SP1 is not ready (Score:5, Funny)
Waiting for his download to finish...
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"they" didn't do testing on a gbit network card.
And, this means that *I* am supposed to? The reason I spend money on an OS is to assure that it has been tested; if I do the testing there are plenty of no-cost alternatives.
Quote
Network and sound drivers now userland.
Is this good? Back to the gbit network, that would be 100mbytes/second of data. Passed through kernel (i/o priviledged) layers
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No, nobody said you should either. Yes, they fucked up by not testing this scenario well. It happens though; I know because I develop software for a living. FWIW, I tried the "no-cost" alternative. That only works if you're 1) lucky 2) buy hardware from a list of things known to work and 3) have lots of time to invest. No thanks.
Is
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"Either"??? (Score:3, Funny)
Re:Bias (Score:4, Insightful)
I am similarly conflicted. On one hand I want the spectacle. On the other I know that I'm just going to have to support it over the phone for my parents.
And let me just head off anyone who is going to suggest "install Linux for them" or "get them to buy a mac..." I will say that I live thousands of miles away from them and, quite frankly, they're getting older and the change would probably be more trouble than it is worth.
-matthew
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They're old, not stupid. Besides, supporting Linux isn't the issue. Just getting them to the point where supporting it is the only issue is the issue. My dad runs so much Windows-only crap that it isn't even funny. He's uses the computer for much more than web browsing and email.
OS X would be my first choice for them.
-matthew
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My dad is very conservative. I went to the store to help him buy a new laptop and he didn't follow my suggestion of buying a Mac. I almost convinced him of letting me install Linux but I needed some time and he was in a a hurry to take the laptop home, to the country.
Anyway, he hated Vista so much that he asked me to set it to the Windows 2000 look and feel. Even so, he has a fit every time one of those stupid popups comes up with some badly translated bullshit that he can't understand. I can't wait to
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One of these times I'll try to get the old beta of Boot C
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No, I'm not saying your mom is dumb because she couldn't figure out Macs. But rather you can't rightly say Macs are confus
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Re:good for vista or bad for 2008 server? (Score:4, Insightful)
Anyway, I'll bite. Windows Server 2008, like any decent server should have, is based on user permissions and if your user can't perform a given task, you can escalate to admin rights (OMG JUST LIEK SU!!) and do your thing. And obviously there won't be the same issues as on Vista because it won't be used as a desktop. At least it shouldn't be.
And the fact it's not a desktop means that the HD videos thing doesn't even matter.
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You won't be watching HD videos on 2008 server, and if 2003 is anything to go by, graphics performance won't be up to much anyway.
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The only cycles used by any DRM code is when you try to play back DRMed content. What are you doing playing video and audio on a server? Vista is to Win2k8 as Win2k Pro was to Win2k Server products, or Xp was to Win2k3. Win2k8 is not a desktop operating system.
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Media Center. As an HTPC operating system, Vista is, bar none, the best option right now. There's really no argument that Linux's driver support doesn't come close to Vista's driver support when it comes to support of products l
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Okay, it's not a full-blown PC but sometimes less is more.
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