The Whiz of Silver Bullets 244
ChelleChelle writes "In an entertaining yet well thought-out article, software architect Alex E. Bell of The Boeing Company lashes out at the so-called 'Silver Bullets' and those who rely on them to solve all their software development difficulties. From the article: 'the desperate, the pressured, and the ignorant are among those who continue to worship the silver-bullet gods and plead for continuance of silver-fueled delusions that are keeping many of their projects alive.'"
The Real Silver Bullet (Score:4, Funny)
Re:The Real Silver Bullet (Score:3, Funny)
Re:The Real Silver Bullet (Score:2)
Re:The Real Silver Bullet (Score:2)
Silver bullet, or dum-dum bullet?
Re:The Real Silver Bullet (Score:2)
Seriously though, people need to learn that software is a tool. For example, houses would never get built without hammers, but you still need skilled workers putting in the hours to get it done.
Silver Bullet in a Concealed-Carry Revolver (Score:4, Funny)
In this case, if you under 18 years of age, I recommend that you buy a box of silver bullets or just plain vanilla lead bullets. Put the bullets into your revolver. Hide the revolver in your jacket. Then, walk into your boss' office. Fire away. You will not be tried as an adult since you are not a legal adult. Better yet, after you reach the age of 18, your criminal record will be wiped clean.
If you are over 18 years of age, you need to weigh the situation carefully. If you kill your boss, then you will definitely be tried for 1st degree murder. You may be eligible to submit a plea of insanity. Most states allow such a plea. Check with your lawyer before you start shooting.
Re: (Score:2)
Re:Silver Bullet in a Concealed-Carry Revolver (Score:2)
Why did you choose to insult my abilities as a software developer?
Re:Silver Bullet in a Concealed-Carry Revolver (Score:2)
Re:Silver Bullet in a Concealed-Carry Revolver (Score:3, Informative)
"In this case, if you under 18 years of age, I recommend that you buy a box of silver bullets or just plain vanilla lead bullets. Put the bullets into your revolver. Hide the revolver in your jacket. Then, walk into your boss' office. Fire away. You will not be tried as an adult since you are not a legal adult. Better yet, after you reach the age of 18, your criminal record will be wiped clean."
You don't live in the US, do you? In the US, persons under the age of 18 are tried, convicted and executed [ncadp.org] on a
Re:Silver Bullet in a Concealed-Carry Revolver (Score:2, Interesting)
I am still waiting to see occ
Well... (Score:5, Insightful)
Re:Well... (Score:4, Insightful)
And this is what has to change. Saying that techs should make all the decisions is of course unrealistic, but in a sane company the management lets them evaluate the solutions before deciding.
Re:Well... (Score:5, Insightful)
Why ? Think about it from the management's point of view. The choices they face are:
Which one should a sane manager choose ? Getting fired or getting a bonus ?
Re:Well... (Score:3, Insightful)
IMarv
Re:Well... (Score:3, Interesting)
Actually, it would only stop if potential customers would stop believing in silver-bullets. I work in the specialty chemical industry. You would not believe how many times I have been asked for a 'silver bullet', even when I explain that said bullet is impossible because it violates one or more laws of nature. Vendors offer them because customers want them, reality be damned.
Here around (Score:2)
Stop the BLAME GAME! (Score:5, Interesting)
The problem here is that everybody has their own silver bullets, and if you don't happen agree then you think the other person is a bone head.
So let's stop the blame game shall we.
Re:Stop the BLAME GAME! (Score:5, Insightful)
Re:Stop the BLAME GAME! (Score:2)
But worse, has he opened his eyes?? Is he so *blinkered* that he does not see that Silver Bullets exist in all spheres of human activity?
Failing Football Team? just add Wayne Rooney
Global Warming? just change your lightbulbs to savers
Middle East Crisis? just send in Condaleeza Rice
Endemic Crime? everyone would be fine if there was Education, Education, Education.
This guy needs to get out more.
Re:Stop the BLAME GAME! (Score:5, Funny)
Re:Stop the BLAME GAME! (Score:5, Funny)
In our shop, it's Java that accelerates software development, and I don't mean the programming language.
Re:Stop the BLAME GAME! (Score:2)
Re:Stop the BLAME GAME! (Score:3)
People need to understand that good tools do not replace the craftsman.
It is possible to write a good program in Visual Basic, Perl, forth, c, or even 6502 assembly.
All good tools do, is make the work go faster. But there is a limit to even that. It takes time to care.
I do think that some programing languages are better than others. I hated Forth, and I refuse to lean any language that is tied to one operating system. Those are my likes and choices. Unlike a lot of people I like
UML and managers (Score:5, Funny)
Manager: "This new project should be done with new project management methods, like UML"
Senior: "Uuh, you do know that UML is a notation for diagrams?"
Manager (irritated): "Yeah, of course I know that. You know what I mean!"
Re:UML and managers (Score:2)
Re:UML and managers (Score:2)
Re:UML and managers (Score:2)
Re:UML and managers (Score:2)
Re:UML and managers (Score:3, Interesting)
Re:UML and managers (Score:3, Interesting)
I've been on many projects (and managed quite a few myself) that successfully used UML in requirements gathering (use cases---so business folks can sign off on them; leading to less problems later on), object modeling (database schema generation, php, c#, java, etc., code generation, ado
Re:UML and managers (Score:3, Funny)
Sorry, no sale :p (Score:4, Interesting)
Sorry, I LIVE in a pretty small town in Transylvania (used to live in a slightly larger one), and software developers around here are all BUT immune to (the lure of such) silver bullets... ever heard of Cluj-Napoca or Baia Mare (or any of the software microbehemoths that start springing to life there) ?
Re:Sorry, no sale :p (Score:3, Insightful)
See, this is the problem with offshoring. It's not the quality of the foreign coders, it's the lack of a shared cultural context in which to collaborate. For instance, no American software company would put "Cluj" in its name.
Re:Sorry, no sale :p (Score:2, Funny)
Silver Bullets works just fine (Score:2, Insightful)
Re:Silver Bullets works just fine (Score:2)
GVIM [vim.org] works pretty well for me. I also use NVU for RAD prototyping. Oh and I auctually wrote a useful webservice in C# using SharpDevelop so that counts as well.
The sad part is vim sucks the least of these three, although SharpDevelop is starting to support the ASP.NET thing pretty well.
Re:Silver Bullets works just fine (Score:4, Insightful)
Bullets don't kill people... (Score:5, Insightful)
The problem with Silver Bullets is not the bullet itself - but the idiot behind the trigger.
Most of these Silver Bullets are great ideas, but give them to some moron who half knows how they work (and yet claims to be an expert) and they do the exact opposite of what they were intended to do, and because some PHB reads about in the industry pages, they just keep hanging in there like a millstone around our respective necks.
For any technology you can see outstanding implementations. But for every one of those there are ten other complete disasters.
And as the other saying goes - if you don't know who the moron is.....
Re:Bullets don't kill people... (Score:3, Insightful)
As a manager you are tasked with developing software quickly and cheaply. I liken it to being a farmer. You can till the soil, plant the seeds
Re:Bullets don't kill people... (Score:3, Insightful)
(ie. "we'll build a steel buidling, because steel is good - and we'll fasten the steel beams together with nails, because our carpenters know how to use nails.")
Then when it comes time to implement - the implementor starts the project already painted into a corner by the architect, and has to jump through all kinds of
Untried bullets (Score:4, Interesting)
My own experience of some of these bullets (UML, agile methods, etc.) within an organisation is that they get a small enthusiastic following who push it so far, implement maybe 20% of the technique then lose interest or regress under deadline pressure. They don't follow the bullet far enough to draw proper conclusions.
I'm cynical about most bullets, but some catch the imagination. I'd just like to see one of them, just once, properly implemented.
Incidentally, this isn't just an engineering article. Management suffers from the same tendency towards managerial silver bullets (and the same poor application). I guess many professions do.
Re:Untried bullets (Score:3, Insightful)
Webservices are todays silver bullets (Score:3, Insightful)
And every body knows that XML itself is no longer a silver bullet. It is too natural and integrated to not use XML where it fits in.
What I worry about is the huge stack of technologies that are currently being built on top of it.
Webservices being the biggest of those and worse the stuff that goes on top of that:
XML Schemas, WS-YouNameIt, BPMN, BPEL4WS
It reminds me of a few years ago when choosing java for an enterprise project meant that you had to use EVERY component in the J2EE stack, so that every single class was a EJB and every single call was a remote call.
Now most projects has learnt to stay away from the "classic J2EE" approach, but are instead falling for the next silver bullet which invites to make the excact same mistake using Web Services
Webservices are great and has their uses, but I have seen projects that subscribe to the idea that every single component in the project should be a webservice and orchestrated by BPEL. Good luck.
Re:Webservices are todays silver bullets (Score:2)
You are not from the future, right?
Re:Webservices are todays silver bullets (Score:4, Interesting)
Web services are probably being overtouted as a silver bullet, but the fact is that they serve a very useful purpose. I maintain a legacy app which uses ad-hoc XML over HTTPS. Since I have no idea what the format of the request and response is, I must constantly refer to the code to figure it out. I must also invent my own error responses if the format is incorrect. Web services mean I could just define the interface in WSDL (using WTP in Eclipse for example) and more or less forget about it. I can even use Axis or .NET's wsdl.exe to auto generate the stubs that make the call and just concentrate on the business logic. Bad calls throw a soap fault which is turned into an exception or whatnot by the client lib that makes the call. It doesn't make all my problems disappear, but it does mean I can be looking at the functionality of the app rather than wasting time rolling my own XML format.
And even the ad-hoc XML over HTTPS is quite an improvement over what came before. Then you'd be talking about opening a port and defining the whole handshake and transfer of data using messages, complete with all the bugs and security issues that go with that. Standards are a great thing even if they initially seem confusing.
Certainly any standard is open to abuse. I expect that anyone who has to deal with Microsoft's new Office format over XML will be in a world of hurt. But you have Microsoft to blame for that, not the standard.
Re:Webservices are todays silver bullets (Score:2, Interesting)
Yes sure, it works. It is an easy solution to various simple data-interchange-like problems.
However, it is also bulky, inefficient and overly complex. Bulky - needs no explanation. Inefficient - parsing it isn't that trivial, and also applying schemas is expensive and complicated. Multiple levels of namespaces, and so on can lead to complex heirarchical data structures that need a load of work to make sense of.
Why 'silver bullets'? (Score:2)
So, what's a 'silver bullet' supposed to be good for? Killing werewolves, right? (Or wererats or warehouses or werecanaries.)
Given that it's really only good for one extremely limited function, why in the world does a 'silver bullet' represent a solution to a wide range of problems?
Re:Why 'silver bullets'? (Score:3, Informative)
Sheesh [berkeley.edu]
Kids today.
Re:Why 'silver bullets'? (Score:2)
I remember seeing the explanation of this in an old Lone Ranger movie: Because a silver bullet is so expensive, you don't fire them off in volleys like people do with lead bullets. You take careful aim before you pull the trigger.
Unfortunately, the usual management approach with silver software bullets is to supply them to the entire staff, and demand that they be fired at every target at every opportunity.
There's a
TFA is shallow hogwash (Score:4, Interesting)
For one: 'utterance_in_a_state_of_speechlessness' should be 'utterance state="speechlessness"'
And further: Using sophisticated design techniques doesn't replace the work, but it can help a piece of software reach it's maximum potential. On the inside of every shop there is a silver bullet: It's called education. A model doesn't replace programming and somewhere beyond the ususal CRUD there's allways work to be done on procedural details - that's where part of the fun in sw developement is. Every developer worth his money knows this. If he where ranting at academics, I'd understand, but as far as I'm conserned he's preaching to the choir.
TFA is definitely not 'well-thought-out'. In fact it's a tad pointless.
Re:TFA is shallow hogwash (Score:2)
Yes, it is yet another article that can be summed up by "Some technologies are overhyped and used inappropriately".
Re:TFA is shallow hogwash (Score:2)
Fred Brooks original silver bullet paper (Score:5, Informative)
*sigh* (Score:2)
The root problem is people using tools they never bother to even vaguely understand. If you aren't going to bother to understand the technology, ple
Re:*sigh* (Score:2)
The problem here is that it's very cultural - the manager doesn't want to know the details, and refuses to accept that squirting ink on a piece of paper is not something you can compare developing web applications to - I'm building a site for his other company at the moment, and one of the "specifications" is that all content fo
Technoluddite? (Score:5, Insightful)
As he snarkily pooh-pooh's the distribution of realtime stock and financial data as a web service, it's probably the latter. I used to work for a company who ran their own ticker plant and had software on the desks of almost every stock broker, investment banker and forex trader on the planet. The client/server requirments of the system were immense. The client had to be maintained on Windows, Sun, Mac and was being slooooowly ported to linux, was fragile as hell and a pain to install and upgrade. The server was a farm of eight midrange Sun or AS/400 boxes, fed by redundant T1's from the ticker plant, and this would only accomodate two or three hundred users.
Then we went to a web-based client, sort of like AJAX before people started calling it AJAX, and all the headache went away. It's not a small or trivial thing, and it radically changed the way business was done, and for the better.
Just because it's new and has a buzzword doesn't mean it's a flash in the pan. The moral of the story is to use your judgement, and avoid formulas. Even tried-and-true ones. Silver bullets may not exist, but technology doesn't stand still, no matter how many hours you've sunk into learning emacs and gdb.
SoupIsGood Food
Re:Technoluddite? (Score:5, Insightful)
How did "objects and IDEs don't solve every problem" turn into "objects and IDEs have little or no value"?
Re:Technoluddite? (Score:2)
"Objects and IDEs don't solve every problem" is a self-evident truth
"Marketers over-hype things" is also pretty widely understood.
So what is he saying that is actually interesting? It would be much more productive to write an article on the appropriate limits of the use of particular technologies than to spew truisms as if they were deep wisdom.
Re:Technoluddite? (Score:3, Interesting)
Silver Bullet != !(Flash in the Pan).
It doesn't look like the essay defines "silver bullet" and I don't have the original in front of me, but a Silver Bullet is a single methodology or technology change that by itself always results in an order-of-magnitude improvement, thus seeming to "slay" previously immortal beasts of problems.
Fred Brooks never claimed there wouldn't be improvements, and there have been. But they always seem
Software development is a pathological case (Score:5, Insightful)
"Hope springs eternal in the human breast" - indeed, in business (and especially sales) optimism is highly thought of, and realism often denounced as "cynicism" or "negative thinking". This is all very well in activities involving human beings, who can easily be manipulated through their emotions. However, it fails utterly when confronted with the cold, hard facts of the physical world.
When someone seems to be unrealistically hopeful, we speak of "getting a reality check". In other words, finding our noses hard up against the brick wall of ineluctable, unarguable facts. The problem with most software development projects is that the ultimate decision-makers - those who have the gold and, therefore, make the rules - are very rarely able to get a reality check until the project runs out of time, money, or both. They are hopelessly ill-equipped to make reasoned, educated judgments based on the arguments presented by vendors, analysts, and their own technical staff. So it's hardly surprising that over-optimism tends to creep in.
I have been giving talks about software engineering for about 20 years now, and I usually stress the fact that "there are no silver bullets". This warning is always greeted by vigorous nodding, knowledgeable smiles, and sometimes applause. Afterwards, I sadly feel, the people who have just agreed that there are no silver bullets go out into the exhibition hall or open their magazines, and resume... looking for silver bullets.
Ultimately, I see just two ways out of this dead end. Either decision-makers take the time, trouble, and mental effort to learn the necessary basics about software development and maintenance. Or they start choosing technical managers and architects who really know their stuff - and trust them implicitly. As time goes by, I hope that both these things will happen more and more.
I've been in the business for nigh on 1/4 century (Score:5, Interesting)
There is one thing that seems constant: The mix of successful, marginally successful, and just plain failed projects feels the same as ever, even though I'm positively sure that our knowledge of how to create software is much greater than it was.
The glass half full aspect of this of course is that the sytems we are developing are far more powerful and complex than what we worked on in the early 80s. Back then many projects were just collections of utility programs that were invoked from the OS command line and ran top to bottom. Structure those programs, and the problem of how to create software is solved, see??? That's why structured programming was the silver bullet of the 70s and early 80s.
Now, it's not uncommon for a "lowly" application programmer to have to deal with things like aynchronous processes, something that was the province of the lordly systems programmer back in the day. Ordinary applicaitons are as or more complex today than major systems were back then.
The other thing that is constant is that some people get it, some sort of get it, and some don't get it a all. But the common shibboleths of our profession are freely available to all, level of englightment not withstanding. The difference is the lower the level of enlightenment, the more those things take on the role of totems and fetishes.
I've been looking at jobs listings recently, and curiously they never seem to be looking for charactersistics that would demonstrate that somebody "gets it". I've seen things like "Must have three to five years of programming with Struts." Now I have nothing against Struts, but I can see nothing about Struts that would indicate you need three years of hard labor to be able to work productively with it. After all, the point of all these frameworks is to make things easier. I can see "must have thre years working with distributed transactional systems", or "must have three years of experience with security on web applications", or "must have three years of experience with designing user interfaces."
I'd rather call things like the XML or web services craze "technology fetishes" than "silver bullets". A fetish is "An object that is believed to have magical or spiritual powers, especially such an object associated with animistic or shamanistic religious practices." Religious or technological, fetishes are for some aids on a difficult but rewarding journey, for others they're the promise of relief from hard work, thinking and risk.
Re:I've been in the business for nigh on 1/4 centu (Score:3, Insightful)
You are right on target. I have confused users with my creations for 2+ decades. I know over 10 languages, have been taught 15 or so, am currently conversant with about 3 (not counting markup constructions like HTML, XML,
Heck, when I worked for "HAL" we had a week long course on methodology. If fully implemented with all the requesite documents at each stage, all you would have is a CD full of documents and no product (no time).
I agree wit
Re:I've been in the business for nigh on 1/4 centu (Score:5, Insightful)
Actually, I remember the TQM craze well. However instead of learning about it from the trade rags, I decided to read Kaoru Ishikawa's book, "What Is Total Quality Control?: The Japanese Way". Dr. Ishikawa is the creator of the infamous "fish-bone" diagram.
The interesting thing about Ishikawa's book is that if you had to boil it down, it wasn't about tricks that would magically give your products "quality". Oh, there are some chapters on how to understand what customers' real requirements are (thus the fishbone diagram). But they aren't the heart of the book.
What the book really is, is a primer on character. And according to the book the bedrock characteristic of a quality producing organization is integrity.
It does no good to understand customer requirements if you don't understand your own products and processes; and you will never understand those if you fear the truth and you discourage its spread. So the first thing you need to do is eliminate the culture of fear: fear of failure,mistakes, and plain old bad news. Once fear is eliminated from the organization, useful information begins to flow. In Ishikawa's vision of the quality organiation, fear of the truth is the greatest enemy: victory in competition goes to the organization that discovers and rectifies its faults the quickest.
Which is why it is foolish to motivate with praise, particularly undeserved praise. I've never met an engineer worth his salt who really enjoys getting personal praise on more than a occasional basis. The good ones are more motivated with the prospect of becoming better. Praise has its uses; mainly to help maintain a realistically balanced view in the painful process of self improvement.
Manufacturing is different than software development. But it is true that the integrity and fear play a huge part in determining software quality. Some day I will write a book: Why Good Engineers Write Bad Software. The number one reason has to be this: not facing reality. This leads to the number two reason: not doing what you know you should be doing.
Both of these proceed from fear. A software development organization that eliminates fear eliminates the number one barrier to achieving its potential. In the end, the personal qualities of courage, compassion, and integrity that we bring to our work matter much more than any methodology.
Re:I've been in the business for nigh on 1/4 centu (Score:4, Insightful)
It is no longer a fetish.
How exactly would you phrase that in a job listing? "Only people who 'get it' need apply"? Determining whether somebody does in fact "get it" is clearly best left for interview.
For examples, see my original posting. Let me give you an example of why the way job listing are usually written are broken.
Suppose you use WebWork in your application. So you say, "Must have three years of experience with WebWork". Now you have three engineers. Engineer A has worked on a WebWork based application for three years, although he has mostly been coding business logic POJOs. Engineer B has five years of Struts experience, and in the last six months has converted an application from Struts to WebWorks in anticipation of WebWork becoming Struts 2. Engineer C has been programming Java MVC applications for the web for ten years. He lead the development of an in house MVC framework in 1998, and has periodically done evaluations of Struts and WebWork, but neither has enough of and advantage to convert from the in house framework.
Under the criteria you have the job, only the least qualified candidate is going to get an interview.
Splendid stuff! (Score:4, Funny)
Silver bullet effect (Score:2, Insightful)
It's People (Score:4, Insightful)
Silver Bullet Response Template (Score:3, Insightful)
If that doesn't work move on to:
$BULLET won't help you BECAUSE your programmers are retarded.
If that still doesn't have any effect...
$BULLET won't help you because your managers are retarded.
For BULLET in "Structured programming techinques" "Top down design" "Bottom up design" "Object oriented programming" C++ java XML "six sigma" "agile (or extreme) programming" scrum
The old saying (Score:2)
Alternatives to silver bullets (Score:3, Funny)
1) Stake thru the heart
2) Garlic worn around the neck
3) Holy water
4) Crucifix
5) Sunlight
Two unspoken words: agile and extreme (Score:5, Insightful)
Before we start a religious war on whether XP/agile are silver bullets or not, let's step back and ask whether we're talking about different things. I think there is no silver bullet that will kill a software monster created by Big Up Front Design (BUFD).
It's a good thing to put serious, deep thought into what must be done before one starts work. You have to do your homework and you have to write down everything you know for certain up front. Trouble happens because after some point up-front design becomes mere speculation. You have to somehow confirm early design decisions made when you're ignorant.
In the old days before computers, Engineers built prototypes to do that. Nowadays, Engineeers (or the pointy-haired bosses who lead them) are addicted to the notion of "shipping the prototype."
I personally favor the notion of capturing "user stories" because stories have a way of separating "what" from "how" and stories are an effective way to communicate pertinent details between customer and developer while skipping over one's ignorance.
A trouble with BUFD is that it becomes a "proclamation" about software from the developer (or customer, depending upon the power-relationship). If we were gods, that would not be a problem, but we have limited knowledge and we have sort our our ignorance. But we're not and I think a "conversation" between the two is a more effective way to sort out what's wanted and what's possible.
In a "conversation" the software monster never grows so big that the ammunition in our clip (UML, agile/xp methods, high-level languages, today's microsoft buzzword) can't kill it.
Inability to deal with complexity (Score:3, Informative)
Hence the common practice (in some countries) of selling impossible deadlines to customers and then using overwork to (try and) achieve those deadlines (via the "tired developers make more bugs" and the "low morale" negative feedback loops, overwork usually leads to LONGER development times and a longer tail of bugfixing before the software is accepted for production).
The same theory would also help explain the recurring reliance by some managers on the next "silver bullet" to solve all our problems - silver bullets are always sold as solving everything and having no downsides (thus no tradeoffs) and no side-effects (and thus no negative feedback loops).
Don't forget "Meta" Silver Bullets !!! (Score:3, Insightful)
Solutions vs Tools (Score:3, Insightful)
I think a lot of this comes down to the 'solutions mindset' vs the 'tools mindset'. A 'Solution' is self-contained, operates itself, and requires little thought. A 'Tool', on the other hand, requires a wielder (or operator), may need other tools to be effective, and requires thought and skill to use.
The problem is that computer technology, by and large, is much more a tool than it is a solution, while management tends to gravitate towards 'solutions'.
Most 'silver bullets' are in fact useful tools, if treated as such. When treated as a solution, they always come up short, because no tool, by itself, is a full-blown solution. The result is that management ends up using and discarding one silver bullet after another, rather than concentrating on gathering a useful set of tools and a group of people capable of using them skillfully.
Re: (Score:2, Insightful)
Re:Bullets? (Score:5, Insightful)
XML works? Huh?
XML is a data representation. It works? How does it work? By representing data?
What else could work? S-Expressions? SGML? ASN.1? Flat text file?
The data representation isn't solving the problem.
XML, Extreme Programming, technique / technology of the week all are trying to do the same thing: help us manage complexity. Fred Brooks had a lot to say there. My favorite quote from the 'No Silver Bullet' essay:
Re:Bullets? (Score:5, Insightful)
That works, until you notice that it's not as easy as it seems. How do you represent arrays of data, or trees? Can you specify a string in Russian and have the parser not choke on it? What about Chinese? Can it handle Unicode? What if your format is "key=value", and the value contains a "=" or a newline? Can the key contain spaces? If you write "key = value", do the spaces get stripped or not? What if the first character of the value is a space?
I've seen all sorts of horrible tricks to deal with those problems, like "key=value" where the value is encoded in hex or base64.
XML is nice for that: The designers thought of all that already, designed it to be able to deal with all of them, and made parsers that work.
Re:Bullets? (Score:3, Interesting)
XML says little of the semantics. This isn't evil in and of itself. The way it was marketed as a silver bullet, even though the semantic holes|canyons|abysses stretch wide, explains the backlash.
What's good about XML, and I used to go to some government working groups about it, is that by calling everything "human readable text", there was much participation from people who otherwise wouldn't budge.
The bad news, in the government case, is that homo bureaucratus realiz
Re:Bullets? (Score:5, Insightful)
I think you've essentially hit the nail on the head there. XML is excellent at what it does. However what it does is not "everything", and the "silver bullet" marketing (Java + XML = "Enterprise"!) surrounding it causes people to get upset, because that's not what it is.
Marketing is, in general, really good at turning people against perfectly good technologies, because those in the know will always see through the lies, exaggerations and half-truths, but will then have a hard time conveying these to superiors or other colleagues who have had a little less experience and a glossy leaflet to gaze on.
Re:Bullets? (Score:2)
"Any sufficiently complicated C or Fortran program contains an ad hoc, informally-specified, bug-ridden, slow implementation of half of Common Lisp."
Using XML as a programming language is the prime example of this. It is basically lisp with a different (but vastly more verbose) syntax and the more advanced concepts removed.
Re:Bullets? (Score:2)
Well, yes, XML is a data interchange format more than anything. On the other hand, it can be a useful representation of (simple) logical structures, which could be considered almost "progamming in XML". But no, in general, that's neither what it's for nor something it is useful for.
Re:Bullets? (Score:2)
Yeah, that's kinda a problem with the complexity of the subject. People just buy what's best presented ("ooh, that's shiny!") because they're often completely incapable of purchasing things on the merits of the presented systems. This is something I've encountered a lot myself, and I've only actually been in this in
Re:Bullets? (Score:2, Insightful)
Can you specify a string in Russian and have the parser not choke on it? What about Chinese? Can it handle Unicode? What if your format is "key=value", and the value contains a "=" or a newline? Can the key contain spaces? If you write "key = value", do the spaces get stripped or not? What if the first character of the value is a space?
Observe that all these things are problems that only arise if you have humans generating the data. If a program generates it, then you n
Re:Bullets? (Score:2, Insightful)
Ah Ha! My chance to get modded into oblivion by those who don't know anything!
XML is a tagging system. It may be useful for the transmission of data between dissimilar systems but even there it is a crappy methodology. It bloats the data with massive tags, if you parse it in anything but a linear fashion, it becomes a recursive method to make processes take forever and isn't worth anything more than a flat file with a table at the top to tell you where things are. XML only handles ASCII and doesn't do t
Re:Bullets? (Score:3, Interesting)
coming from an other world, where 2400 baud modems were a luxory, I always get bothered while dealing with XML, and seeing that in most transactions, over 50% is the tags.
Then people deal with the magic SOAP transactions, where they send 90%+ tags, and 2-3 short strings as the actual data
On the other hand, implement a payment processing using
a. SOAP requests
b. some proprietary crap
than you will thank God for XML
I also have to mention that while XML seems like a bandwidth hog, there is
Re:Bullets? (Score:3, Informative)
Here you have a bit of code that ver
Re:Bullets? (Score:3, Interesting)
Your "~~~" idea doesn't even come close to solving the problem. It still won't help with new
Re:Bullets? (Score:2)
Re:Bullets? (Score:2)
Re:Bullets? (Score:5, Interesting)
For him, XML was sort of a religion. The ultimate "technology" (we were not talking about all the technos that comes with XML like XSLT,
Talking about XML as a "tool" was a blasphemy. I "learned" that the savior XML:
- Saved us from the interoperability problem by allowing us to transfer data from and to any system
transparently. Sure, you only have to transform the output of one application into the input of the second system.
- Reduce coding problem ( using for example, the function "XML DoSomething(XML params)", so you can change the params without changing the interface and the doc (duh!) )
- Reduce database problem ( storing XML as blob in the DB - no need to call the DBA when you change the data format )
- Solve configuration problem ( now configuration file are in XML that means it is easy to understand )
Thanks XML.
Re:Bullets? (Score:3, Informative)
Here are three choices I've gotten to work:
JSON [json.org]
XML
CSV
Have you ever seen nested CSV files? They're truely bizzare to see, but if you have a sufficiently powerful parser, they can be read. New Line characters are to be record separators only when they are fully outside of quotes. Commas are to be used as field separators, only when they are fully outside of quotes. Quotes are to be used as content descriminators only when not doubled up.
The closest thing to a CSV spec t [shaftek.org]
Re:Bullets? (Score:5, Insightful)
Re:Bullets? (Score:3, Funny)
Re:Bullets? (Score:2)
Yes, if those are just slimy fucking walrus-looking pieces of shit
Re:Bullets? (Score:2)
Re:Bullets? (Score:3, Insightful)
By using XML instead of something simpler, the size of each network message being passed is increased tremendously, and the amount of processing required to create and decode the message is increase considerably compared to a simpler format.
Yes, the size can be decreased via compression, b
More than just XML (Score:2)
Re:strangly this whole thing (Score:2)
Fortunately, /. has non-validating moderators.
Re:Current silver bullets (Score:3, Informative)