Vista May Put Anti-Spyware Companies Out 392
Ant wrote to mention a C|Net article with an interesting premise: Windows Vista's tough approach to spyware may put anti-spyware companies out of business. From the article: "While this may be good news for buyers of Vista, it is not for anyone who makes a living from selling anti-spyware software. The worldwide market has boomed recently, reaching $97 million in revenue in 2004, up 240.4 percent from a year earlier, according to IDC. However, companies such as Webroot Software and Sunbelt Software are in for tough times, analysts said."
...well... (Score:5, Insightful)
msft giveth, msft taketh away.
Re:...well... (Score:2, Informative)
Now Microsoft is moving into their market, and will be selling both a problem and the solution to that problem. Nice.
Re:...well... (Score:2, Funny)
Microsoft, cleaning after itself. or Microsoft, fixing the problems you didn't have.
Re:...well... (Score:5, Insightful)
Re:...well... (Score:3, Informative)
The only time microsoft software has shown any signs of security it when you run others companies software on top of it, to try and make it more secure.
Re:...well... (Score:3, Funny)
So what was the design goal for WindowsME? Give the source code to 1000 monkeys, wait a year, then see what they came up with?
Re:...well... (Score:5, Funny)
So what was the design goal for WindowsME? Give the source code to 1000 monkeys, wait a year, then see what they came up with? :/
Don't you think that is unfair to monkeys?
Re:...well... (Score:4, Insightful)
There's nothing that Windows (or Linux, or OS X, *BSD, Solaris, etc) can do to prevent me from installing stuff if I have the admin (or root) password. All it can do is try to prevent things from installing without my say so; if I choose to install CometBonziCursorBuddy, it can't stop me.
As long as people write crap, other people will install crap. All we can hope to do is educate people to stop installing crap.
Re:...well... (Score:5, Insightful)
No, that's crap. You can never educate enough people to make a difference. OS vendors need to write systems that;
The reason crap happens to Windows is that it is easy to put persistent malware on people's computers. If the OS was designed so users could remove crap themselves, there wouldn't be the same motivation to make malware.
Re:...well... (Score:4, Insightful)
Tell that to my Knoppix CD...
I think it IS possible if your OS and hardware are designed properly. You have your core OS on RO media, apps in their own hardware lockable (switch or key) area, strictly compartmentalised human readable config files, and a separate noexe area for data files.
A sandbox (chroot or VM) environment for trying dodgy stuff would be nice too...
Re:...well... (Score:3, Insightful)
How do I update it? Do I have to buy/obtain a new CD/DVD/EEPROM? Do I have to boot off the CD/DVD all the time (*slow*)? If it's on an EEPROM, how do novice users update it? How do I add (or remove) my own features?
apps in their own hardware lockable (switch or key) area
Ok, so to install an app you have to physically flick a switch. How does that prevent me from intentionally installing an app that turns out to be a trojan, and adds my PC to a spam botnet?
a separate noexe ar
Re:...well... (Score:3, Interesting)
Sure there is, it's called DRM. Granted it won't be used for this purpose but it would work.
Imagine this.
Your computer is set to only install programs that are signed by some authority. FOr the sake of argument let's assume the authority is the debian foundation. After this the OS will not install anything that hasn't been signed by the debian foundation f
Re:...well... (Score:3, Insightful)
1. This strategy puts open-source programmers at a disadvantage, as most authorisation companies would request a fee. After all, they have costs to maintain. Home users would balk at the costs, and think that if they don't "do stupid stuff", they'll be safe.
2. What you are suggesting is also vulnerable through blind trust. If phishers can get a security certificare, it's possible for an adware/spyware maker to get one just long enough to do damage.
No, the solution really is
Re:...well... (Score:5, Insightful)
You're forgetting something here: there's a great deal of this kind of crap out there that installs itself in Windows without the user's say-so. No download, no click "OK" or anything. You're online and boom, you've got spyware. A router helps, a firewall helps, Peer Guardian and WinPatrol help a lot, but you never know when another thing might come along that can get through them and be on your system before you know it.
It's a common misconception that malware has to be installed on a Windows system with the user's permission - but it doesn't. People keep saying that the users need to be educated enough not to install crap on their systems, but a lot of people obviously need to be educated about the fact that not all spyware is installed with the user's permission. At least half of it is not. It's this kind of "it's all the foolish users installing crap" attitude that helps malware flourish; people think their system is safe if they don't download attachments and install stuff off the net, but they're not. Not at all.
Re:...well... (Score:3, Insightful)
The bottom line is that there's no technical reason that Spyware is more prevalent on any platform other than Windows. It's just a bigger target. With viruses and so on there's at least a technological reason as well as this, but Spyware/Adware aren't something that can be effectively protect against, because in most cases the user agrees to the software.
Re:...well... (Score:5, Interesting)
Re:...well... (Score:3, Insightful)
Humor? (Score:2, Funny)
Look before you mod, people.
I disagree (Score:3, Funny)
Look before you mod, people.
Re:...well... (Score:4, Interesting)
And there is no "???" step.
Just Fair (Score:5, Insightful)
Re:Just Fair (Score:5, Insightful)
There's no "deserve" in doing business and trying to meet a demand in order to make money off of it.
Re:Just Fair (Score:2)
Re:Just Fair (Score:5, Insightful)
Their rates are regulated by the state, so they basically work out a rate that includes costs + profit.
If demand goes up, so do prices
If demand goes down, guess what happens.
Yep, prices go up. Why? Because they aren't making their agreed upon level of profit. It's a fairly cushy deal.
Be glad MS isn't truly a monopoly, cause if they were, they'd be regulated & their profit margin would be enshrined in law.
Re:Just Fair (Score:2)
How dare they! (Score:5, Funny)
I, guess?
Re:How dare they! (Score:3, Funny)
Re:How dare they! (Score:5, Informative)
Re:How dare they! (Score:3, Funny)
Re:How dare they! (Score:3, Informative)
Besides, I thought that the argument was that if something is bundled with/in Windows, no-one will bother to seek out an alternative? That's got to be the case, right, I mean, IE is still the most commonly-used browser...
Re:How dare they! (Score:2)
Re:How dare they! (Score:5, Insightful)
Re:How dare they! (Score:3, Insightful)
Almost all malware exploits shortcomings in the user, not the software.
Re:How dare they! (Score:3, Insightful)
So how was McDonalds responsible when the woman spilled the hot coffee in her lap, and M got sued for $1.0M. So now McDonalds have to put hot warnings on their coffee. Is is not reasonable to assume that unless someone is really "stupid", they would know that coffee is served hot.
This is OT, however, the reason McDonalds was found liable was because they were a) serving coffee at a far higher temperature than anyone would reasonably call "hot enough" and b) because they had received numerous complaints ab
erm (Score:5, Funny)
Analysis (Score:4, Insightful)
Re:Analysis (Score:5, Informative)
I'm not saying it's all sunshine and rainbows; it's still not a fully locked down OS but they have been improving.
Re:Analysis (Score:2)
Methinks the Bad Guys have been improving at a faster rate. Just an opinion, mind you.
Re:Analysis (Score:5, Insightful)
Re:Analysis (Score:4, Funny)
They'll find a way. (Score:5, Insightful)
Re:They'll find a way. (Score:5, Interesting)
But true. The only sure protection is to build something that cannot be circumvented because of some law of physics. Software-driven systems will probably never reach this point. We just have to educate people to be safe enough that only the most inventive criminals can get in (and make it so that people understand how to be safe, not just install X because it will "protect" me from Y). It's just like common sense in anything else - know where not to go, what not to do, and if you are unsure, don't do it.
Re:They'll find a way. (Score:5, Insightful)
They are advanced programmers which reads slashdot, post to usenet etc too.
They are just "evil" or don't have/believe in ethics.
Re:They'll find a way. (Score:5, Funny)
They're Republicans?
Re:They'll find a way. (Score:3, Insightful)
Unstoppable? (Score:2)
Re:They'll find a way. (Score:3, Funny)
So true. Just ask the French.
Re:They'll find a way. (Score:5, Informative)
world's tinyiest violin (Score:3, Insightful)
any company based on fixing something that shouldn't of happened in the first place has a fundamentally flawed business plan anyway.
if a company is founded based on the idea of eliminating something, then the business plan needs to take into account the chances of the company achieving its goal... eliminating things... or the need for it to eliminate anything becoming unnecessary.
im sorry, but i really don't care.
flawed? (Score:4, Insightful)
Other areas too (Score:2)
Re:Other areas too (Score:2, Insightful)
With the same result. Long after the original problem is solved the organization lives on, never able to just claim victory and disolve. Does anyone thing lowering blood alchol levels yet again will further reduce drunk driving deaths? Nope, but the only things government action could do aren't politically possible and MADD can't just admit that and pick a new cause to crusade for. The NOW gang long ago won e
Re:Other areas too (Score:5, Funny)
Re:Other areas too (Score:3, Insightful)
fundamental flaw? (Score:3, Insightful)
As bad as windows has been and may continue to be, unless people can't play their games or surf the web I seriously doubt any problem in Vista will slow it's sales.
Tough on spyware? (Score:5, Funny)
So what? (Score:2)
They've fixed spam? (Score:2, Insightful)
Yeah, great. So Microsoft will "fix" spyware as well as they've "fixed" spam.
I don't see SpamAssassin fading away any time soon. So I wouldn't put any bets on on spyware companies (anti- o
Gartner is SO reliable (Score:2, Informative)
Ditch the Experts: http://money.cnn.com/magazines/fortune/fortune_arc hive/2006/02/06/8367977/index.htm [cnn.com]
Pretty clear, eh?
slownewsday (Score:3, Funny)
So Far Quite Good (Score:2)
I've recently downloaded MS Defender [microsoft.com], which I take it is the new moniker for their antispyware programme. Cross checking MS antispyware against LavaSoft has caught only one piece of spyware MS antispyware missed.
So, as infrequently as I say it, Good on you MicroSoft!
Re:One missed is still too many! (Score:3, Insightful)
Re:One missed is still too many! (Score:2)
Who broke my window? (Score:5, Interesting)
In actual fact were the windows not being broken the resources could be put to better use elsewhere - the time of the labourer and the money spent could be used to grow the economy rather than in the mantainance of existing infrastructure which is an activity that adds zero to the bottom line.
In this case not needing spyware companies will allow the workers and the capital emplyed to go and do something more efficent, in economic terms... such as innovating new and better spyware, seeing as how well Microsoft's other security related announcements have worked out
Re:Who broke my window? (Score:2)
French: http://bastiat.org/fr/cqovecqonvp.html#vitre_cass
English: http://bastiat.org/en/twisatwins.html [bastiat.org]
Re:Who broke my window? (Score:2)
On a more serious note, you're right: Micrsoft has no business making anti-spyware workaround programs, when they ought to be fixing their crap software (i.e., the underlying problem that allows spyware to exist in the first place) instead!
Re:Who broke my window? (Score:2)
Nah, don't think so (Score:4, Insightful)
Free anti-crudware (Score:2)
Why stop now, just when I'm hating it?
I'll believe it (Score:2)
Microsoft has been promising the moon and been delivering old moldy cheese for years. This sounds like a thinly veiled advertisement for MS - is anybody really going to cry that they don't have to run x+1 spyware detectors anymore?
But, MS has been reluctant to close all the holes in their system due to backwards compatibility, I believe? Things like ActiveX, that leave holes open for abuse. How did they get around this?
Of course it's an ad. (Score:3, Insightful)
Every version of Windows has been "conceived during the toughest times for Microsoft with regards to malicious softwar
Re:Of course it's an ad. (Score:2)
Microsoft is taking a multipronged approach to fight spyware. Unlike XP, Vista will run by default with fewer user privileges. People will have to invoke full, "administrator," privileges to perform tasks such as installing an application.
Also, Internet Explorer 7, included with Vista, will prevent silent installs of malicious code by stopping the browser from writing data anywhere e
Still won't use it except for at work... (Score:2)
OK, MS, you've got security licked. Now about this paying my firstborn Windows and then again for Office, licensing, EULA issues and this bit about being forced to register my software and not being able to swap out stuff on my box without calling you guys?
Nah, it's still a pass.
Re:Still won't use it except for at work... (Score:3, Insightful)
So this is why the anti-virus people look to Macs (Score:2)
While SP2 did a good job of doing the bare minimums (root/admin demotion and forcing firewalling), Microsoft has consistently demonstrated a casual approach to security, despite their claims to the contrary.
Don't short Symantec stock (but perhaps do it to McAfee if they continue to send out virus identifications that include Excel) or any of the rest. People will get email viruses, port 80/surfing bugs, and a myriad of other problems with Vista. It's been already demonstrated that the kernel code delta
Sure, just like Windows95 put AntiVirus companies (Score:2)
No it can't (Score:2)
The purchases you make/don't make today, form the options we have tomorrow.
Anti spyware companies will always have a market (Score:2)
Truth is, a lot of people still use the outdated O/S's. There is tons of excuses why they do, everything from "it runs better" to "I don't want MS peeking in my nono spot" to "my old programs won't run on the new systems"
So these old O/S's will still supply sustainable income for the anti spyware compa
In theory, it doesn't have to. (Score:3, Insightful)
In theory, they could just fix the core problem and the spyware would vanish as the old Microsoft OS's were replaced by newer ones.
But, from TFA:
Vista will NOT put them out of business (Score:2)
Now, maybe Microsoft Defender/Antispyware might do it, since those run on older MS OS's.
Microsoft would make the best antispyware app (Score:2)
Re:Microsoft would make the best antispyware app (Score:2)
Microsoft have one big handicap: belief in their product. This is the real reason why the "many eyes finds bugs" approach of OSS works well. Its not the number of people its the fact that people who have no stake in the product can go out and find the bugs.
Expecting perfection when none exists (Score:2)
There aren't that many attack vectors... (Score:2)
Forget it (Score:2)
I predict the oposite, I think that more than one virus will be propegated the week that Vista comes out.
I think that the security companies will have a booming time with Vista.
MS's business structure and ethics can't allow security to work, ever.
Bad and Good News... (Score:2)
Re:Bad and Good News... (Score:2)
Most anti virus and spyware companies are businesses where making money is the one and only interest, anti spyware is just a vehicle.
Why do people like you fail to understand these facts of life.
Wake up to the real world where almost nobody likes their job and ony are into it for the money.
People like the makers of Spybot S&D are a very small minority light in our world of darkness.
b.t.w. Us Linux trolls can handle Window
Webroot Software and Sunbelt Software... (Score:5, Insightful)
As far as I'm concerned, if M$ are closing holes that shouldn't really be there, that's a Good Thing (tm).
I mean, these same spyware companies don't make a mint off other OSes do they, so why should they piggy-back a specific one? Isn't that essentially making money from a weakness? And if the weakness is removed, well... game over I guess, until M$ falls at the next hurdle and people make cash out of it. I mean, Mr. Norton seems to have had it quite easy for a while now...
About this kind of software competition (Score:4, Interesting)
I really don't mind if Microsoft would similarly put Windows antivirus companies "out of business" either. Yes, sucks to be them, but security is among the most important aspects of an operating system, and as important to me when I use an OS as basically the GUI itself.
Well, duh! (Score:3, Informative)
Microsoft created the need for these companies to exist. The near destruction of that need is a side effect of MS finally learning that security is part of the development process.
But as long as there is Windows, there will be a need for 3rd party Windows security software.
doubtful (Score:2, Insightful)
But (Score:2)
Yeah, right (Score:2)
What's more, it's stupid to simultaneously underestimate the resourcefulness of the spyware industry, underestimate user stupidity, and overestimate Microsoft's likelyhood of success in this area.
So no, Vista is not a threat to the anti-spyware business.
MS is spam pimpin (Score:3, Insightful)
Familiar Strategy (Score:3, Informative)
So yeah, Vista will solve all the spyware and virus problems, we promise, please don't buy a Mac in the mean time!
It's a New Definition. (Score:3, Insightful)
It looks like most spyware from larger companies is going to be replaced by DRM that you're not allowed to remove (under the EULA).
Rah! Rah! (Pffft!) (Score:5, Funny)
It's about time MS used their overwhelming security expertise to address this pressing problem!. Gosh knows, now that:
- NT 3.1 solved all the BSOD problems...
- Windows 2000 given us perfectly stable drivers that never fail...
- we have a flawless and simple system for authenticode verification to prevent all those darned pirates and their stolen copies of Windows...
- and a rock solid browser like IE 6 with none of those silly security defects found in (shudder) DOWNLEVEL browsers like FireFox and Opera...
All we've been waiting for is MS to put the last bricks in the wall of total user trust and security with flawless DRM and anti-spyware!
Kudos to the Bill G and the brave, fighting lads at MS for their continuous and unflagging dedication to providing a rock-solid security combo of Win95-compatible OS, ActiveX-enabled Browser, and integrated VBA-enabled Office applications, that makes third-party anti-virus, anti-trojan, firewall, backup, and other rip-offs completely unecessary!
Yeah! And now I'm off to meet the ghost of John Lennon on his magic Yellow Submarine for a late night trip to visit Narnia!
Just how F**KING STUPID are these reporters, anyway?
What about StarForce et. al.? (Score:4, Insightful)
Re:Better idea (Score:2)
Re:Not really... (Score:2)
Would you care to point out these "obsurd" hardware requirements demanded by Vista? Because last time I checked, the recommended hardware was just a couple steps up from XP, and the minimum was pretty much the same.