Danish, Western Websites Under Attack 1467
caese writes "The BBC is reporting that almost 900 Danish websites have been defaced by crackers angry about the recent controversy over cartoons depicting the Prophet Muhammad. From the article: 'What is extraordinary for this Danish case is the speed in which the community united'. Another 1600 or so Western websites have been defaced by the same group. The defacements have ranged from condemnation of the cartoons to outright calls for violence."
Cartoons (Score:5, Insightful)
Serious note: Lets take a look at this situation.
Attack: Cartoon
Defense: Death threats, burn down buildings, deface websites, protests, and the list goes on.
Conclusion: Overkill?
Re:Cartoons (Score:5, Funny)
Re:Cartoons (Score:5, Funny)
You mean Chuck Norris is a muslim?
Re:Cartoons (Score:4, Funny)
Re:Cartoons (Score:5, Insightful)
It's a little strange to me, but before this Danish cartoon incident I was siding with the 'doves', yet now I find myself siding with the hawks. Freedom of speech is at least as sacred to me as the prophet is to a muslim person. It's such a crucial part of the very foundation of our culture. People died for it. There can be no compromise on this issue. No apologetic placating. Particularly not for the type of murderous trash who are willing to violently burn/kill/vandalise/hack/destroy etc. for some cartoons. I realise that (a) it is a minority of Muslims and (b) they are actually behaving against the very teachings of the Prophet and Islam, but dammit, the rest of the Islamic people better get these violent ones in line or we are rightfully headed for a clash of ideals here.
Re:Cartoons (Score:5, Insightful)
If there's anything that this is proving, it's that the crazies are not in the minority here. 500,000 people chanting "death to america, death to israel?"
Granted, while most Muslims will not actively torch embassies and behead infidels, they genuinely beleive the entire world should be forcibly conquered by their religion.
Re:Cartoons (Score:3, Insightful)
Re:Cartoons (Score:4, Insightful)
Re:Cartoons (Score:5, Informative)
Maybe it's the fault of the media in certain countries that the moderate Muslim reaction isn't being sought or heard?
Bob
Fear (Score:4, Insightful)
As others have pointed out they're not silent in the west, and a lot of them are fed up with having to distance themselves from fruitloops calling themselves muslims in other parts of the world. Anyone can get fed up if they always have to defend actions they have nothing to do with but which others link them to by some common denominator. That being said one can't exactly fault people for asking either; it's part of getting to know someone to ask about their opinons isn't it?
But take a look at those few non-cleric muslims who have spoken in favour of freedom of speech concerning the cartoons in the middle east. In slightly more relaxed countries like Egypt and Jordan they've been sued and harassed. It is no wonder that the silent majority (at least I hope it's a majority) "down there" are afraid of voicing opinion that run counter to an extremist interpretation of Islam. It's even more understandable if it's something they don't give much tought; almost all muslims in those countries live in extremely homogenized countries where almost everybody is a muslim, that's not an environment conducive to thinking about freedom of expression of those that think differently.
Speaking up in a place like Syria or Iran is tantamount to germans voicing criticism against the treatment of jews in 1940: you've got to be extremely brave to do it and you've got to expect very bad consequences of doing so. I wish they would speak up but I can't but sympathize that they don't; it so much simpler to just go with the flow and if necessary blame Israel, the US, or the EU, or Denmark, or Norway, or *insert scapegoat de jour here* for everything one doesn't like from time immemorial. Yes some people do the same here in the west; stupidity knows no boundaries of culture, gender, or ideology.
There's a lot of info that's not getting attention either in the west or in muslim countries:
- some pretty hefty misunderstandings by danish imams and muslims (however the situation is different in Denmark than in Norway, from my perspective I would say that the communities in Denmark are much more disjointed). Some danish imams when talking about the matter to fellow believers in the muslim world managed to mix up the issue with completely non-relevant pictures and impressions exaggerating their "victimization". Some of those issues didn't have the least to do with anything about Islam (or at least the prophet Mohammed) and to such a level that one can wonder if they had ulterior motives -- it's either that or they have almost no understanding of the country and continent they're living in.
- the rumour mill in the arab world, but elsewhere as well, ran completely out of control: there's a lot of misinformation out there that's 100% false and exaggerated
- a severe lack of knowledge about how important the concept of freedom of expression is in the west, what the background and philosophy is, what it actually means. There's a need for an introduction to Voltaire
- a severe lack of knowledge about how the relation between free press and the state is in western democracies
- a severe lack of understanding about the fact that in the west you are not (as an individual or as a state) expected
Re:Xymphora Blogspot Thought Experiment (Score:5, Insightful)
"If you want to try to cure yourself of the problem and remove the cultural blinders, you have to do a Nigger Thought Experiment. If you prefer, you can do a Kike Thought Experiment. Instead of the Danish cartoons, image a big-lipped, bug-eyed 'nigger' eating a giant watermelon. Or perhaps you'd prefer a cloaked, hook-nosed 'kike' with a giant bag of gold 'jewing' some gentile out of his money? Would you be defending the right of the papers to publish such cartoons based on the 'enlightenment values' of the West? Would you be so proud of your precious 'free speech'?"
Yeah. This is allowed. Organizations like the KKK? Allowed to spew their hatred. That argument is totally bogus. The civilized world doesn't riot when people publish offensive stuff. Most of the time, it gets an hour or so of press and then ignored.
The cartoons were targetted at a very specific and very vocal muslim population that uses violence as a means to solving their problems. As people who want to be in prominent places, they can be ridiculed. I can see how the way it was done is *highly offensive*, but that doesn't make it okay to burn stuff down. You're just deluding yourself into the most extremeist form of political correctness if you think so.
"Here is a small list of some of the things we do to Muslims, without even a hint that there might be some moral issues involved"
You and I both know that's bullshit. No one imprisons muslim women to take them away from their families just for fun. No one bombs innocent children, calls it a mistake, but really meant to do it on purpose. No one chops down olive tree groves just to laugh at dejected muslim faces.
Lastly, It's clear you've never read the history of the Palestinian refugees and how they got there. Before you reply - and I'm pretty sure there's going to be a reply here - go look up exactly what forced Palestinian people from their lands. [Try "Arab Israelis" as a start"]
Re:Cartoons (Score:5, Informative)
You are very misinformed (which is admittedly not your fault as the US news it trying to make it sound exactly like the way you are taking it). This "demonstration against the cartoons" is actually just an annaul holy event. You go there next year, you'll see roughly the same number of people marching there. Its just that some of the Islamic radical leaders are getting up in front of this crowd and railing against the cartoons and shouting things like "death to America".
Of course a headline saying "1/2 Million Muslims attend demonstration chanting 'death to America'" sounds much more exciting than "Annual Shia religious event draws 1/2 million where a few radical leaders condem America". I'll let you guess which one American news organizations (I use that term loosely) will lead the evening news with.
Re:Cartoons (Score:4, Insightful)
The 6:00 news shows have been doing alot of interviews with "Muslims on the street" (I'm from New York, lots of 'em in Jersey and Brooklyn) And it's very hard to look at how angry they are and not think that they would sound just like Imam Al-Halal Al-Salami Al-Muhammed if the cameras were off. Saying blatantly hypocritical things like "Yes, there should be free speech, but not for blasphemy."
Re:Cartoons (Score:4, Insightful)
And Christianity lacks this particular trait how?
I'd say it's the "forcibly" qualifier. Modern Christianity (and I mean modern; let's not start a flame-war about the crusades, eh?) doesn't resort to violence nearly as often. The far-right Christians who want the world to conform to their religious views are at least going about their business politically. They'll talk a lot of trash about "liberals" or what-have-you, and they'll lobby to pass laws that force you to play their game. Pat Robertson will subtly hint that God doesn't like you, and Fred Phelps will be less subtle. But outside of the occasional abortion clinic bombing (the last one was when, the early 90's?), they very rarely kill people. I'd say that's a pretty big difference.
Re:Cartoons (Score:3, Informative)
I started out the same way as you, but was also forced to look into what is actually taught by the Koran. In fact, the prophet taught and practiced the spreading of Islam by sword. Some excerpts from
Fight non-believers
9.123: O you who believe! fight those of the unbelievers who are near to you and let them find in you hardness; and know that Allah is with those who guard (against evil).
Kill non-believers
4.89: They desire that you should disbelieve as they have disbelieved, so that you might be (
Re:Cartoons (Score:4, Insightful)
Because there are consequences to them for doing so. In radical Islamic countries, there is no such consequence - you might be applauded for executing such a feat as killing a Christian or Jew.
"If you had been Danish, we'd kill you." - some Lebanese protester to a Norwegian journalist.
Re:Name one (Score:5, Informative)
Re:Cartoons (Score:4, Insightful)
Jesus Christ himself said "But I say to you, do not resist an evil person; but whoever slaps you on your right cheek, turn the other to him also" - Matt 5:39 [biblegateway.com] and "love your enemies and pray for those who persecute you" - Matt 5:44 [biblegateway.com]. Bombing the middle east was not implied here.
The a world were run by true followers of Jesus Christ, this world would be moving in love, not war or hatred. I seriously doubt that the US President is a true follower of Jesus Christ, because his murders and lies clearly are evidence against this being so.
Nowhere in the New Testament scriptures are non-believers to be executed. Or the Old Testament for that matter.
Re:Cartoons (Score:5, Insightful)
The question is, how do most Muslims understand the teachings of the Prophet? If most of them really do think it's okay to murder people because they are "infidels", then we have a major problem. In that case, it's pretty much our DUTY to publish the cartoons, and more.
But if most of them do NOT think that, then it is THEIR duty (and certainly in their best interests) to put out their alternate message, and to tell the world that murder and kidnappings are NOT what Islam teaches. If the passages you quoted above are in the Koran (and not taken out of context), and Bin Ladin and his ilk interpret them the way they seem to read, and the rest of the Islamic world either keeps silent, then they have only themselves to blame for the consequences -- they can hardly blame the people who take Bin Ladin at his word that he is speaking for Muslims everywhere.
Re:Cartoons (Score:4, Insightful)
The interested reader can look up the passages cited here in the Project Gutenberg triple-translation of the Koran [gutenberg.org]. But unless I am very much mistaken, the "idolators" that the Prophet is railing about are not Jews and Christian, who are of course the ones who do have monotheistic faiths, but the polytheistic communities of Arabia which were his contemporaries. Note the numerous citations of "Moses" and "Jesus" in that work, in by no means critical terms.
What a study of the Koran does not reveal however is everything which has happened since that time, including the fatwas [islamtoday.com] issued by religious authorities, such as the this one prohibiting making images of people and animals [islamtoday.com]. I think one has to understand this side of the religion as well as the Koranic side in order to form a complete opinion.
Re:Cartoons (Score:3, Insightful)
For instance, you could go into the office tomorrow and tell your boss you think he's a complete asshole and a clueless fuck, yes?
Even if that was your opinion, you would probably moderate your free speech either somewhat, or completely, or be out of a job real soon.
I too think the reaction of the muslim community is completely over the top, but don't kid yourself, you are not a dove by a lo
Re:Cartoons (Score:4, Insightful)
Re:Cartoons (Score:3, Informative)
Jihad is a religious struggle. The main jihad is within a Muslim, to do the right thing, both spirtually and through good works. There's one hadith says that a young man came to the Prophet and asked to join the Muslim armies and join the jihad. The Prophet told him to go take care of his mother, as that was the greater jihad.
Jihad doesn't mean killing and your definition is wrong. JIhad is a struggle, and no matter how much Faux News pours it down your throa
Re:Cartoons (Score:4, Insightful)
Yes, Muslim governments are trying to control the terrorists, but governments always do that sort of thing. Where are the clerics denouncing the suicide bombers and those who send them? Why is there not a loud RELIGIOUS opposition to these people?
Because if there isn't, then the world is quite JUSTIFIED in believing that the terrorists are right when they claim that Islam teaches them to kill innocent people just because they belong to a nation that they claim are "enemies of Islam". And if Mohammed really did teach such things, then the caricatures of him are completely justified.
So don't attack the messenger! Don't attack the cartoonist who says "this is the picture that Muslims are showing us of Mohammed." Attack the people who are GIVING the world this picture of Mohammed.
Re:Cartoons (Score:3, Interesting)
Re:Cartoons (Score:5, Informative)
Um... They're here [muhajabah.com]. And here [cair-net.org]. And here and here [masnet.org] and here [baheyeldin.com] and here [americanmuslimwoman.com] and here [jannah.org] and even here [cbsnews.com] and, oh, there are a few hundred more here [muhajabah.com].
Muslim leaders around the world have issued fatwa after fatwa condemning terrorism and calling for an end to suicide bombings, car bombings, bus bombs, subway bombs, and every other bombing short of another Uwe Boll film. Just because Bill O'Reilly doesn't tell you about it doesn't mean that is never happened.
Re:Cartoons (Score:5, Insightful)
The problem isn't that leaders "around the world" don't do that... the problem is that the leaders in the countries that are encouraging this, and sending money to do more of it, and celebrating it when it happens are not condemning it. What good does it do when some cleric in Malaysia says that some despondent, crazy Syrian kid shouldn't be listening to the non-stop encouragement to kill westerners? It's the people shouting the non-stop encouragement that have to change, and they don't want to. So the only option is to actually stop them, and the reaction from most governments in the Islamic world has been to be somewhat helpful, at best, while other people do it for them.
Do you really think that the collection of murderous bomb plotters that just "escaped" from a Yemeni prison were just such geniuses that they got out despite the best efforts of local government and religious leaders to keep them from running out and blowing up another ship? No. They got out through a tunnel to neighboring mosque. You know, one of those buildings run by Islamic religious leaders. You know, the ones that are not preaching peace? Those are the people that keep stirring this crap up, and make the embassy bombers, the hijackers, the journalist beheaders and the people that blow up kids in restaurants feel comfortable and morally correct. The religious leaders are the problem, and their peers aren't doing enough to showcase that hypocrisy to the world. Every time one of these pro-suicide clowns gets airtime on Al Jazeera, 100 more rational clerics should be screaming from the rooftops about how evil they are. Coverage differences does not account for the comparative silence from those quarters. You know it, they know it, and the people throwing firebombs at embassies over cartoons know it.
Re:Cartoons (Score:5, Informative)
Well, here [bbc.co.uk] are some and here [bbc.co.uk] are some more. The latter is particularly telling, it contains quotes from a group of over 500 clerics in the UK shortly after the London bombings:
"On behalf of over 500 clerics, scholars and Imams the British Muslim Forum issues the following religious decree:
Islam strictly, strongly and severely condemns the use of violence and the destruction of innocent lives.
There is neither place nor justification in Islam for extremism, fanaticism or terrorism. Suicide bombings, which killed and injured innocent people in London, are haram - vehemently prohibited in Islam, and those who committed these barbaric acts in London are criminals not martyrs.
Such acts, as perpetrated in London, are crimes against all of humanity and contrary to the teachings of Islam.
The Holy Koran declares:
"Whoever kills a human being, then it is as though he has killed all mankind; and whoever saves a human life, it is as though he had saved all mankind." (Koran, Surah al-Maidah (5), verse 32).
Islam teaches us to be caring towards all of Allah's (God's) creation, not just mankind. The Prophet of Islam who was described as "a mercy to the worlds" said: "All creation is the family of Allah and that person is most beloved to Allah who is kind and caring towards His family."
Islam's position is clear and unequivocal: murder of one soul is the murder of the whole of humanity; he who shows no respect for human life is an enemy of humanity.
We pray for the defeat of extremism and terrorism in the world.
We pray for peace, security and harmony to triumph in multicultural Great Britain."
Re:Cartoons (Score:3, Insightful)
Let's see here... (Score:5, Insightful)
I protest that characterization by calling for or comitting acts of terrorism and violence, both in the real world, and on the internet.
Nope, no hypocrisy here!
compare.. (Score:5, Interesting)
No higher-order reasoning (Score:5, Insightful)
perhaps you should read the news (Score:5, Insightful)
Bottom line is these 14th century nitwits armed with modern technology are a danger to everyone for their ease of manipulation and lack of reason when it comes to anything remotely regarding Islam.
I really doubt Moslems are going to survive in their form for another 50 years. They either blunt themselves (as Christians did) or they're eliminated just like every other non-viable belief system. (Shakers, zoarastrians, et al)
Re:perhaps you should read the news (Score:3, Insightful)
"You know what we think of you? We think, one hundred years ago, you were living in tents and chopping each other's heads off and we think that's where you'll be in another hundred years"
Re:perhaps you should read the news (Score:3, Insightful)
Re:perhaps you should read the news (Score:4, Insightful)
I realize that you probably didn't mean it that way, but this is what is frustrating about this whole mess to a Dane, like myself, that millions of muslims suddenly hate all Danes, when the "crime" was commited by a single silly newspaper.
I'm pretty sure it was all of you (Score:5, Funny)
Re:perhaps you should read the news (Score:5, Insightful)
September, 2005: A series of cartoons is published in the Danish newspaper Morgenavisen Jyllands-Posten, depicting the Prophet in a number of unflattering ways. Nobody notices.
October, 2005: Nobody notices again.
November and December, 2005: Still no response. It's almost like nobody cares.
Early January, 2006: During the Hajj, an annual pilgrimage in which millions of people travel to Mecca, negligence on behalf of the organizers . Earlier that month a hotel near Mecca had collapsed, killing at least seventy people. Both tragedies were seen as being caused by the carelessness of the Saudi government, and the metaphorical poo-poo started to fly. [wikipedia.org]
Nobody heard about it in North America because they were too concerned with more important things like Nick and Jessica's break-up and whether Angelina and Brad were likely to get back together.
Later That Same Week: The Saudi press, which is completely controlled by the government, discovers to its shock that a mere four months ago a foreign newspaper with a limited circularion had printed a few poorly drawn cartoons which nobody seemed to care about. Sensing a far more important story at hand the Saudi government drops all plans to criticize themselves for their fatal blunders at the Hajj and instead starts running up to four stories a day about the horrors of infidel cartoonists. The locals eat it up.
The European and American media sense a big boost to their circulation and ratings, eat it up with just as much fervor, and start reprinting the cartoons. This is a bit like throwing water on a grease fire, and it leads us to where we are today.
The dog is being wagged, folks.
Anti-semitism cartoons from Arabs news papers (Score:3, Informative)
Hypocrisy? Yes.
Re:Anti-semitism cartoons from Arabs news papers (Score:4, Insightful)
No, the same cartoons in Arab new papers months ago without a hint of protests and death threats.
Hypocrisy? Yes.
Re:Let's see here... (Score:3, Informative)
Although that, no doubt, added heat to it, the main reason for the disapproval is the religious, nor merely cultural offense.
Picturing the Prophet in any way is offensive. Showing him smelling flowers, writing a poem, or getting married is strictly forbidden.
That's the dry theory. For the more entertaining practice, see this amusing editorial [yahoo.com].
Comment removed (Score:5, Insightful)
Re:Cartoons (Score:3)
Beware those who are devoid of tolerance.
Re:Cartoons (Score:5, Funny)
No kidding! I can't stand assholes like that!
All I Can Say Is... (Score:5, Insightful)
That would be indefensible by the media.
Hey, come to think of it, there really isn't a lot of that rioting and setting-things-ablaze-for-days thing at all here in The West. Why d'you suppose that is?
g'head, g'head, discuss this amongst yourselves...
Re:All I Can Say Is... (Score:5, Interesting)
To put it another way, the single best way of pacifying a community is giving people something to lose. Nothing turns someone who doesn't think deeply into a peaceful person as quickly as possessions.
Re:All I Can Say Is... (Score:3, Interesting)
Re:All I Can Say Is... (Score:3, Informative)
Re:Cartoons (Score:5, Funny)
Defense: Death threats, burn down buildings, deface websites, protests, and the list goes on.
If those defenses worked, Cathy would have been off the comic pages years ago.
Re:Cartoons (Score:3, Insightful)
Seriously, there is a disturbing lack of perspective and proportionality amongst these savages. Yes, savages, because that is exactly what the extreme nutjobs (those making the death threats [smh.com.au]) are - xenophobic troglodytes who can't tolerate any conduct by others that violates their strict code.
if it were a movie? (Score:5, Interesting)
You know, the usual.
Re:Cartoons (Score:5, Insightful)
Yeah, but as a friend of mine (who is actually over in the Middle East) puts it: "This whole [Danish/Muslim] dispute is simply a lightning rod for a backward theocratic movement which is unable to successfully compete in a modern world of ideas and business."
In other words, it's like when you fight with your wife over the dishes. You're not really fighting about the dishes; it's just the symptom that manifests to indicate a deeper issue.
This is /. (Score:4, Funny)
Wife? This is /. you insensitive clod!
Re:Cartoons (Score:5, Insightful)
Re:Cartoons (Score:3)
I hear ya...I just cannot believe that all these "peace loving muslims" get offended by a cartoon portraying mohammad as violent, and then.....
Re:Cartoons (Score:5, Insightful)
I believe there is an exception to be made in the case of muslims. Violence is a tenet in their religion as reaction to many things. Hell, it is in their koran to kill blasphemers, and infidels.
I don't know of any other religion in the world, that outright preaches violence as a direct approach to anything offensive.
Re:Cartoons (Score:5, Informative)
Actually, that has little or nothing to do with it. They're pissed because someone drew a picture of Muhammad, which is forbidden in Islam (the reasoning being that if you start showing pictures of the prophet, that could lead to idolatry). So any kind of image of the prophet can be seen as a "graven image" and against the will of Allah. That by itself is a pretty reasonable view point, but killing people and destroying property over it is not.
Re:Cartoons (Score:3, Insightful)
I think that's just an excuse.
I know how seriously they take that thing about no graven images. I remember in one of my art history classes an extensive lecture about how some sects believed any images of people/things at all were forbidden, so the developed a purely geometrical art style. However, they're really mad about their socioeconomic position in Europe and having equal access to government services and jobs, and being stereotyped as thugs and/or terrorists. This isn't a logical response to somebo
whats wrong with these people? (Score:3, Funny)
Here we go again... (Score:3, Insightful)
I mean seriously, if a supermarket had a sale on steak and put up cartoons of Vishnu, you wouldn't see Hindus violently protesting. Neither if they had a sale on pork and put cartoons in the window of YHWH.
People need to take a serious chill pill...
Re:Here we go again... (Score:5, Insightful)
But then you seem to restrain yourself from saying outright, that Muslims are freaking savages. Even though you did mention that "war seems to be what they want". I guess you were about to say what was on your mind, but political correctness and liberal virtues so cherished on Slashdot made you refrain.
Well, I'll say it for you. Too many Muslims are freaking savages. Yeah I'm sure there are peaceful and civilized ones out there, but if you look at the ratio of peaceful citizens to raving nuts and compare it to that of Christian nations or Buddhist nations or Shinto nations or whatever, you can't help but come to the conclusion that Muslim, as it exists in the real world today (and not in theory), is a barbaric, violent, repressive religion.
Re:Here we go again... (Score:5, Insightful)
Re:Here we go again... (Score:3, Interesting)
Whatever happened to Islam? What went wrong? I remember reading about old Baghdad, of the culture of the Arabian Nights, of the Arab astronomers who gave us half the names of our stars, of their preservation of the knowledge of old through the dark age of Europe, and their continual improvement upon it. About Richard and Saladin. About the glorious cu
Really offensive... (Score:3, Informative)
Re:Really offensive... (Score:5, Informative)
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jyllands-Posten_Muha
joke time (Score:3, Funny)
A: When you riot because of a one panel cartoon.
Re:joke time (Score:3, Informative)
Re:joke time (Score:3, Insightful)
Re:joke time (Score:5, Funny)
A: Like this.
Re:joke time (Score:3, Insightful)
You know that old chestnut is wearing pretty thin these days. Every time these backwards fucks riot and start killing Westerners, we in the West are met with a politically-correct barrage of the old party line of "Oh, those are just a small number of extremists. Islam is actually a religion of peace, love, understanding, kindness, hugging puppies, etc." The problem is, they AREN'T in small numbers and they AREN'T being met with masses of much-larger crowds of Mus
Re:joke time (Score:3, Informative)
A: When you can't tell the difference between extremists and true followers of a religion.
So, pray tell, who are the true followers of Islam? Cause if you read the Koran (I have, several times) it looks like the people killing other people just for disagreeing with them are the true followers. I'm not going to waste time with quotes from the Koran, there are plenty. Suffice to say, these people are doing exactly what their god and prophet told them to do.
I want a cartoon (Score:4, Funny)
That has the Muhammed with a bomb in his turban, a molitav cocktail in his hand and a machine gun slung over his back, with a crazed expression saying "That will teach them not to depict me and my followers as violent and intolerant.". In the backround there should be an embassy burning and lots of burning pieces of paper flying around with the words 'defaced website' on them.
For good measure, we could have a cartoon of Jesus using thumbscrews or having sex or something too. I'd host it. I think those cartoons would make an excellent worldwide protest against this sort of idiotic behavior.
Re:I want a cartoon (Score:5, Insightful)
The fact that a series of harmless cartoons released by one independent newspaper, which I assume to be owned by a private corporation, was enough to set off such a widespread violent reaction in Muslim countries just goes to show why the world as a whole has such a negative view of the Muslim religion and Islam as a whole. Perhaps if they would've simply left well enough alone or gone about their protests in a peaceful, diplomatic way, the cartoons would've stopped long ago. At the very least, they might have gained some respect and reputation as a peaceful religion. Instead, they've reinforced the very image which sparked the protest in the first place.
Re:I want a cartoon (Score:3, Insightful)
I think we're all having a little trouble here fully understanding the differences between western and middle-eastern cultures. And yes, I do think they are over-reacting. However, the fundamental cultural differences are so profound that we just can't understand their reactions, and we see them as being backward and stupid.
Middle-eastern culture is very old. They have been stuck with self-appointed leaders for far longer than we have. One might argue that this has caused
this has to stop (Score:5, Interesting)
Re:this has to stop (Score:5, Insightful)
That's not gonna happen as long as a) the rest of the world needs oil, and b) the muslim world is sitting on most of it.
Re:this has to stop (Score:3, Insightful)
So they are looking at a future where they won't have much income.
The oil wealth has gone into a few pockets. They'll invest that in Europe/China/USA/Japan. It will not benefit the other guys.
Re:this has to stop (Score:5, Insightful)
Well, these are still by far the most of this billion sized group. That's why we aren't having an all out world war about this.
Re:this has to stop (Score:4, Informative)
They already are. There is a good write-up about some of the problems they are facing in this weeks Economist Self Doomed to failure [economist.com]
very sad (Score:5, Insightful)
Re:very sad (Score:5, Insightful)
Bad people do bad things. It doesn't matter if they're Muslim, American or Buddist. I'll defend every muslim who doesn't participate in a riot and related actions until they're either all killed, or I die.
Provocation? (Score:5, Insightful)
Well, time to start the popcorn since I can't do much but watch. [1] Don't worry -- I won't let the tinfoil hat mess up the microwave popcorn.
Re:Provocation? (Score:3, Interesting)
I've heard Iran may be playing games here, because of their predicament with the UN and their nuclear developments. Supposedly Denmark will be rotating to take control of whatever UN council Iran will be "brought i
I don't understand... (Score:5, Insightful)
Seems a bit counter-productive to me.
"The speed with which the community united" (Score:5, Interesting)
bloggers... (Score:5, Interesting)
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The Ranting Sandmonkey, an Egyptian blog, illustrates just how bogus the MSM refusal to discuss the Danish cartoons "out of respect for Islam" is:
Freedom For Egyptians reminded me why the cartoons looked so familiar to me: they were actually printed in the Egyptian Newspaper Al Fagr back in October 2005. I repeat, October 2005, during Ramadan, for all the egyptian muslim population to see, and not a single squeak of outrage was present. Al Fagr isn't a small newspaper either: it has respectable circulation in Egypt, since it's helmed by known Journalist Adel Hamoudah. Looking around in my house I found the copy of the newspaper, so I decided to scan it and present to all of you to see.
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'The past as prologue'
http://fallbackbelmont.blogspot.com/ [blogspot.com]
Cartoons were previously published in Egypt, no pr (Score:5, Informative)
http://egyptiansandmonkey.blogspot.com/2006/02/bo
Anyone heard about this? Looks like there is a double-standard.
No one really cares about the cartoons (Score:5, Insightful)
The cartoons are just an excuse. The cartoon riots are about rioting, not about cartoons. Rioters riot for fun and profit. Protests are arranged to gain political power for the people arranging them.
Web sites are defaced for the same reason bricks are thrown through windows. It's the same reason Reginald Denny [wikipedia.org] was beat up. It's a combination of hate and the idea that "we can get away with it this time".
I advise not enabling the rioters and web-page defacers by giving them what they want: attention, concessions, etc.
Semi-OT: On Violence (Score:5, Insightful)
I'm agnostic. I get offended when my state's motto is "With God, all things are possible". I don't like hearing "God Bless America" every time George Bush opens his mouth. I do understand I live in a country with religious freedom, and I'm just going to have to take it. If I can't take it anymore, I'll move to a country that supresses religious liberties.
Many of the European Muslims think they can get the good benefits of a liberal democracy (decent jobs, market-based economy), while asking for special status for their religious beliefs. Someone needs to tell them part of living in a liberal democracy is having thick skin.
The Prophet Smith Insulted (Score:4, Funny)
UN Secretary-General Kofi Annan expressed alarm about the riots and urged restraint. But Biscuit giant Utah, which is reviewing trade ties with countries that published the cartoons, vowed to respond to "an anti-Mormon and Mormophobic Meanies
Some of the cartoons depict Smith as a Saxophonist. One image depicts the prophet wearing a Stetson shaped as a boob with an erect nipple.The other image Displays The Prophet wearing special Mormon Magic Diapers
Ministers from 17 Mormon cities on Tuesday urged Belgium's government to punish the newspaper for what they described as an "offence to Mormon".
Reporters Without Borders said the reaction in the Mormon world "betrays a lack of understanding" of press freedom as "an essential accomplishment of piss taking."
It is OK for Mormon Newspapers to depict Cartoons of Belgians eating Polish Sausage , but when a Belgian draws an Image about Joseph Smith It becomes an international crisis
Media (Score:5, Interesting)
See this comment made earlier today:
That particularly rung true to me because I like to digest information in quick hits. I like to check out the summaries of news items and if something is interesting, hear some commentary on it and dig a little deeper.
If all the headlines are "Muslims have taken hostages in..." or "A radical Islamic group exploded...", then people become conditioned to believe that Muslims and Islam are violent when they really aren't.
In a thread a while back, someone made a fantastic observation about Africa. The general premise was that most people still think that the entire continent of Africa is nothing more than corrupt leaders and starving children and this viewpoint was partly blamed on the media and mostly blamed on the influx and inundation of "Save the children" commericals in the 1990s.
sorry, has to be done (Score:3, Funny)
2) Angry mobs burn take to streets burning stuff
3) ???
4) Prophet!!!
Meanwhile in Copenhagen... (Score:4, Funny)
Angry Mobs of Cartoonists Set Syrian And Arabian Embassies Ablaze
COPENHAGEN, DENMARK -- Today, several demonstrations led by angry cartoonists turned into violent riots in downtown Copenhagen. The police forces proved incapable of preventing the rioters from attacking the embassies of the countries where the cartoons pbulished in "Jyllands Posten" were considered offensive. The embassies of Syria, Lebanon and Saudi Arabia were ransacked by mobs on the rampage before being set on fire in the name of freedom of expression.
"We are absolutely outraged that those people took offense at our artwork", said one of the leading rioters. "We demand sanctions from their governments to punish such disrespect !".
The local authorities have declined to comment on the apparent idleness of the police forces towards the rioters. Denmark, which is considered a rogue state by the Middle-East countries, is accused of inciting those riots as a retaliation to the Mid-Eastern embargo on Danish Blue that started last week, following the publication of the cartoons.
A Danies viewpoint (Score:3, Insightful)
What happened was
A Danish newspaper, who have been at the forefront of an ongoing hetz against immigrants and especially muslims, published a number of cartoons depicting Mohammed in ways that can only have been meant to express contempt. Further, if you have been following Danish news, you will know just how vitriolic and hatefilled the debate has been there for a very long time; and this is prominent politicians we're talking about. This has even been commented on in foreign news, with horror and disgust. To a moslem depicting the profet is totally forbidden, apparently, which the newspaper in question certainly knew; and not surprisingly a group of Danish moslems vented their anger in their home countries.
Personally I think it could have been defused then and there if the newspaper or the prime minister had had the decency and backbone to simply apologize; after all, there is such a thing as simple politeness, and no one would need to give up fundamental freedoms etc. How much would it actually have cost anybody if our PM had said something like: 'It is not Danish policy to insult people of other cultures, and I apologize for the distress these insensitive pictures have been published. However, I can not dictate what the newspapers print'? Not a thing.
Instead there has been a load of stilted nonsense about 'freedom of speech' - what a load of crap. Freedom is not the right to get away with whatever you do - there is a responsibility for all your actions as there should be. If you kick a hornets' nest, you'll get stung.
So, to sum it up: Denmark is festering in xenophobia and inflamed rhetoric; a newspaper decides to try to cash in on stirring up the shit and behave a spoiled brat; instead of being mature and apologize, the West is spiteful. Whatever one may think of the moslem world, this is simply not an honourable way to behave.
Re:A Danies skewed viewpoint (Score:5, Insightful)
If you kick a hornets' nest, you'll get stung.
So we should make our freedom's subject to the fear of reprisals. The Hamas leader said that if someone would have been successful in acting on the Ayatollah's fatah to kill the Novelist S. Rushdie then these cartoon would not happen.
Whatever one may think of the moslem world, this is simply not an honourable way to behave.
And burning embassies and issueing death threats to cartoonist for lines on a piece of paper is? Actually the death and kidnapping threats extended to any citizen from the countries that published these cartoons regardless of affiliation.
I sure hope you do not represent the average Danish thinking.
I live in Denmark... (Score:3, Informative)
Respecting "Religion"... (Score:3, Insightful)
But, the thing is, too many religions are also political philosophies. Once you bring your religion into politics, your religion should be fair game for ridicule, insult, or any sort of nasty speech. Islam, (as well as Christianity, but I could go on and on about that, so I will leave it out of this post), is also a political ideology. It is being used as a basis for laws, for systems of government... Heck, even where I live in Canada people are pushing to have Sharia Law enforced in family courts!!!
Once you cross that line, then watch out. There is nothing wrong with insulting Islam as a political ideology, any more than there is anything wrong with insulting Socialism, or Capitalism, or Facism, or Communism. There is nothing wrong with making an insulting cartoon of Muhammad, than making an insulting cartoon of G. W. Bush. It is all part of free political discourse. Political satire is a of democracy and free expression.
If you don't want your religion insulted, then don't try to force your religious ideals on me through the political system. If you are promoting Intelligent Design, or Sharia Law, or anything else on me and at my expense through the political system, I have a right to call out your retarded political philosophy.
Instead of defacing websites, any person who is upset about having their ideology insulted should adopt the lifestyle of the 5th century from which Islamic philosophy began... That way they will not have to be exposed to a diverse global media of the 21st century. If you are going to adopt an ancient political ideology, you need an economic system and technologic lifestyle that is compatible with your belief system. It has worked pretty well for the Amish and Mennonites.
Re:Flags burned (Score:4, Insightful)
Here's what burns me: We've got radicals who have done awful, awful things, things which should be decried from every mosque on the planet. Flying planes into buildings, killing olympic athletes, sawing off people's heads, blowing up children, shooting children in the back...
And none of this raises any serious objections, concerns, or protest in the Islamic world. Sure, we see the occasional newspaper column decrying the violence, but it simply does not seem to be important to the man on the street that his religion is abused this way.
Publish a cartoon now, and we get vast outpourings of outrage.
There's something *so* very wrong with this picture, I don't know where to begin.
Re:Flags burned (Score:3, Informative)
Funny you should say that. Fark had a link to an article which found out where the people in the Gaza Strip got their hands on Danish flags so quickly. Turns out a businessman was selling them ($11 a flag).
In the article he mentions that he gets the Israeli flags which are regularly burned during protests from an Israeli merchant. Talk about capitalism!
Here's the Reuters link [alertnet.org] in question.
Re:From a dane (Score:5, Insightful)
I do agree that as a general rule, you should respect other peoples beliefs. You do have a right to personal beliefs.
I do NOT agree with the following statement:
I think I'm pretty much your average christian-by-culture/atheist-by-belief dane and I understand why the muslims are so pissed! These drawings show nothing but disrespect for the entire muslim community, both here and in the rest of the world.
I cannot understand why they are so pissed. These are disrespectful drawings; but at BEST, thats a matter of taste. Even if its goes against their religious beliefs. These drawings did not advocate wholesale slaughter of muslisms, or anything like that.
They're rude. Do you think I should start a riot everytime someone is rude to me?
The muslim world is embroilded in horrible conditions, things that make everyones skin crawl, and we're having an international culture war over a couple of CARTOON DRAWINGS?
That's perverse. There are real issues here; treatment of muslims in the West, human rights in muslism societs, the vast economic disparities between the 1st world and the 3rd world. And we're talking about BLOODY CARTOONS!
Quite simply, there is no reason for the West to kowtow to Muslim rage. The right answer is for 'us', the reasonable people, to say things like this: "Yes, those cartoons were in poor taste, and I myself do not believe in their message. I respect the rights of Muslims across the world, and have a healthy respect for Islam. However, I also respect the rights of our news media to publish anything they desire, so long as it does not directly incite violence. I may not agree with what they say, but I will defend to the death their right to say it"
We're talking about cartoons. We're not talking about a massacre in tiannamen square. We're not talking about stoning women to death. We're not talking about Soviet purges, or a Jewish holocaust. We aren't discussing a Nuclear War.
Yet this is perhaps the biggest set of international protests I've seen since the fall of the Iron Curtain.
WHAT THE FUCK? (Pardon my French)
I get very, very upset when I hear about the NSA spying on Americans. I get very, very upset when I hear President Bush say that it is unpatriotic to criticize the administration.
But do I start a riot, and burn the local government offices? No.
When I see cartoons that ridicule my race (I'm Iranian), do I flip out and kill people, and demand laws against freedom of speech? No.
The supposed "outrage" we are seeing is misdirection on the part of dictators and religious leaders in the Middle East. There is a much historied tradition of blaming the Islamic world's problems on the West. This is an extension of that blame, and its reached absurd proportions.
Dozens of people have died over these cartoons. If the Islamic world spent a quarter of that effort on overthrowing unjust governments, there wouldn't be a single dictator in the Middle East.
I do not understand why they are this upset. I do not get why they are "pissed". It doesn't make sense to me, and its unacceptable.