How to Approach Customers with Security Issues? 73
stuntshell asks: "We're a group of IT Professionals and we're starting our own consulting firm. We're most systems administrators, and not business admin, nor lawyers, and we're all have worked on big companies and most of the time the job to be performed was just passed on to us. The scope of the work we're about to perform will be security related, so how do you approach a customer in this kind of business? Do you wait for them to come and ask you to test their firewall? Or do you go scanning and discovering holes on other's network for you to offer them your solution? Do write a letter/email or do you propose a meeting? What works?"
You hire a Sales Manager (Score:5, Insightful)
Re:You hire a Sales Manager (Score:3, Informative)
I can't believe this got posted. Look, anyone with good advice to offer is running their own security consulting firm and probably doesn't want more competition. For more general advice, I've seen SmallBizGeeks [smallbizgeeks.com] linked on Slashdot, and it seems like a worthwhile community.
Re:You hire a Sales Manager (Score:2)
You might be on to something. Of course, we've got management who don't think that they need a product these days, so, it balances out.
Personally, I'd rather be at a company where the programmers are respected, but they lack sales expertise, than a shop where they have tons of managers underpaying programmers and talking about outsourcing what little development is done inside the company.
Re:You hire a Sales Manager (Score:2)
Re:You hire a Sales Manager (Score:2)
That said, 2 days ago I attended a talk and had the opportunity to speak to Werner Vogels, a VP at Amazon.com. He used to researcher here at Cornell. Everyone that I've spoken to whose worked there has had a nice experience.
Compare that to the familiar situation of someone who doesn't even understand what you do for a living slamming on you, getting paid more than you, getting better perks than you, and I'd rather go to Amazon any day. Wouldn't you
Scanning? (Score:5, Insightful)
Boy, does that sound like an astonishingly bad idea. Sorta like a locksmith picking the lock on your front door, coming inside and offering to sell you a better lock. Sounds to me like a great way to get shot.
Figuratively speaking, of course.
Re:Scanning? (Score:5, Insightful)
Reverse it, and use an anology like the one in the parent post: how would you feel if someone came to see you, in your office, and said, "Hey, we looked at your locks, and found we could break into your office in less than 5 minutes. For a fee we can tell you how to protect yourself." Wouldn't you wonder if they're running a protection racket? What would you do if, somewhere in the next few months, your business was broken into? Who would the first suspect be? I know if someone came to me and told me how easily any of my systems could be broken into, I'd get all their info, ask them if they had a preliminary report, and tell them I had to talk to my partner. Once I had all their info, I'd turn it over to the cops, since I have NO idea if they are about to hit me up for money, or if they're just geeks that are too stupid to know how to deal with me as a human.
Seriously, if you actually think this could, in any way, be a good idea, then either forget starting your own business or, before you do anything else, hire a sales person who can be your front line and keep you away from your customers so you don't drive them off.
Ever since I started my own business, I've heard from a lot of people who tell me they think they have great ideas -- either for a business, a product, a service, or a way to market. In many years, the idea of scanning, then going up to people and saying they are vulnerable and you can fix it has to be the dumbest one I've heard yet.
And I'm speaking without malice or cruel intent -- just stating it as experience tells me it is.
Re:Scanning? -- Forgot to add (Score:2)
Re:Scanning? -- Forgot to add (Score:1)
Re:Offer to Scan - Forget it! (Score:1)
Any request to scan or security test my network is immediately perceived to be hostile. It's called social engineering and it is one of the most effective security attacks. It's not a good opening line.
If you want my security business, first you need to win my trust with non security work.
Re:Scanning? -- Forgot to add (Score:3, Informative)
Otherwise you risk running afoul of computer trespass laws...
Re:Scanning? (Score:1)
Re:Scanning? (Score:2)
re: What Works (Score:5, Funny)
Every company reads about you and wants to hire you.
Profit
Aaaarrrgghh... (Score:5, Informative)
1) A very nasty letter from either management or legal telling you to cease and desist
2) From the more nasty management/legal, a call to the police..
The best way really, is the more conventional way, advertise, network and otherwise legitimately promote your business, this gray area finding holes and near-blackmail will get you more grief than it's worth.
By the way and offtopic: I woulda probably had first post if my new kitten didn't continuously stomp on my keyboard. Cans of air certainly are handy...
Re:Aaaarrrgghh... (Score:2)
It's similar to the old saying about going around seeing if front doors to homes are unlocked. If you reach in and lock the door for them, the vast majority of people wouldn't notice; but the 1 guy that caught you in the act would rearrange your
Re:Aaaarrrgghh... (Score:1, Informative)
I wish i had a cat... that walked all over MY keyboard... but nO! my parents won't get a cat!
Re:Aaaarrrgghh... (Score:3, Funny)
Not terribly ethical, I suppose...
Not to mention (Score:2, Funny)
Re:Aaaarrrgghh... (Score:5, Funny)
Re: (Score:3, Interesting)
Re:war stories (Score:2)
I had a client (now ex-client, thankfully) who managed to get a very bad name in the web-hosting industry. Unpaid bills, cheated partners, traded stolen equipment, etc. Decided to start all over again, so he changed the name of his company, and pointed the old DNS entries to an ex-partner's company (or the ex-partner kept them).
A year or so later, in comes some snotty young dutch hac^Wwanna-be security team, to pay him a visit. They point out all the holes in his security, have copies
Very simple. (Score:2)
No, no, no! (Score:4, Informative)
Absofreakinglutely do **NOT** any such thing. **NEVER** intrude on a network unless you have **EXPLICIT** **WRITTEN** authorization to do so. You're going to be very, very sorry if you make a practice of doing such things.
I realize that it's impossible to make this point here without a stream of common-sense-impaired nerds lining up to insist that some stupid analogy makes unauthorized intrusion a great idea. You can listen to them or listen to me...
Re:No, no, no! (Score:2)
I personally know someone who was sent to prison for 6 months for scanning, finding a vulnerability, and informing the site admin. The guy didn't ask for money to fix it or anything.
Prosecutors and juries are simply not in tune with "hacker ethics". The guy in the expensive suit will just ask if you did scan or didn't, the 12 people in casual clothing will note
Re:No, no, no! (Score:2)
Any real "security consultant" would insure that the penetration test is authorized by the person running on the equipment. (e.g. the CIO, only by doing an initial port scan if they chose not to in-source it as most corporation
Re:No, no, no! (Score:3, Funny)
Re:No, no, no! (Score:2)
The time is takes to determine the size of the hole and the severity of the problem is so slow and bureaucratic. By the time you know what the do, the worm has multiplied 100x.
Re:No, no, no! (Score:2)
Re:No, no, no! (Score:2)
I'm sure, though, if you were the one swimming nude in your pool, or were someplace you felt were private (whether nude or not) and someone showed you pictures they had taken of you when you had every reason to expect to be alone, you'd have a different opinion.
It's also good to remeber that just because one can does not mean one should. It's always best to show
forgot the (Score:2)
Re:forgot the (Score:2)
Re:forgot the (Score:2)
So I:
1) looked at a public facing security measure as an attacker (vandel thief ect.) may.
2) Disclosed how such security was dilapidated and no good to owner.
3) Did the same to a third party.
I got:
1) no punishment
2) accalaids from my more civic m
Re:forgot the (Score:2)
Re:forgot the (Score:1)
You recomondation could be to close it and set up VPN.
Also, I would think tat probing port 80 and 21 to see whatwhat web/ftpserver was running and checking vs known vulnerbilities is in the realm of not penatrating the firewall (both are presumably for the public).
Probing other ports for version would be more of a grey area (for example SMB) because they are not implitly public. Still, doing a fingerprint on the
Re:forgot the (Score:2)
Re:forgot the (Score:1)
If I were dishonest and found the fence whole it would be trivial to patch it up and prevent me from ever getting back in (check for foiled locks/cut bolts/open windows). In a computer if I found a real vulnerbility you would need to reformat/install to be sure you were clean on the firewall. If it was something systemic to the OS version used you would need to do so to every computer in the company. This means that even if my actions are the same and
Re:English as a second language courses (Score:1)
Might want to think about keeping your day jobs (Score:5, Informative)
As far as "getting the sale", what worked for salespeople that sold goods/services - security or otherwise - to your previous company/companies? That might be a good place to start. If you were never brought into sales-discussions, you might want to ask yourselves "why not?".
What you *definitely* want to do is perform unauthorized scans and/or penetration attempts on a potential customer's external firewalls and/or servers. That will most assuredly endear you to them. Why, they might even ask to have a police escort for you!
One of the last things you should do is approach a new career in security consulting without really knowing that part of the IT world like the back of your hand (and not just the tech bits).
(Have you considered starting up a Starbucks franchise instead?)
Re: (Score:2)
Re:Might want to think about keeping your day jobs (Score:2)
Great sig. NetScreen firewalls are rock solid. We've got a plan slated to replace a good number of the cisco pix-ie dust boxes with them next year. Stupid, crappy connection table limits.
Re:Might want to think about keeping your day jobs (Score:2)
You really have a point here. The security consulting market is pretty saturated; you have to offer something unique (and have good connections) to get any attention.
If you want your own company, there are much more interesting and profitable markets to break into, IMO, even if they don't exploit your full expertise. And if you don't know how to run a business, it doesn't matter how good you are at the technical stuff -- you're fucked. At t
Re:Might want to think about keeping your day jobs (Score:2)
Guess it's all those CISSP "cram sessions" that made all these _fine_ security engineers.
I hear theres good money in long haul trucking!
Re:Might want to think about keeping your day jobs (Score:1, Funny)
Haha! "break into". I get it!
Re:Might want to think about keeping your day jobs (Score:2)
The security industry is filled with people doing this. Its not just a few here and there, it seems like every university computer student is out flogging Nessus reports. Every internet company I know gets at least a few contacts per week from guys flogging their security scanning service. The more socially apt geeks actually call in advance and set up a meeting with someone in the IT or networking group, the hopeless cases just run a Nessus scan, p
"scope of the work" (Score:2)
You can OFFER to widen the scope once you are onsite if you suspect that there are other things wrong, but you should never go poking around.
eRICO (Score:2)
Or do you go scanning and discovering holes on other's network for you to offer them your solution?
I believe that's called extortion [wikipedia.org]. Watch your step.
We don't need no stinkin' salesmen (Score:3, Funny)
Reputation first... (Score:5, Insightful)
1) Distinguish yourself as a group that provides "practical, effective" security. Never leave any of your first customers wondering why they paid you.
2) Solve the problems they want solved rather than the problems you think should be solved. Don't go tell the customer what they need you to do; instead, listen to what they say are the problems and solve them.
3) Brutally asses all the communication skills of your team. Know who your great communicators are, and who are the people you need to hide from the customer. Face it, as a consulting firm, it matters most how you interact with the customer.
As far as strategies go:
1) I bet your primary battle will be convincing people that it's worth investing in security. Start gathering factual stories of security failures so that you can talk about specific incidents and what happened. Be prepared to explain to a non-technical user why they should spend money - and make sure it's completely relevant to them.
For instance, I worked at a web-firm that doesn't really care about security... but they also have about 12,000 social security numbers in one of their databases. When we tried to push "network security" in general, there was no traction. When we asked "what if we have to announce to all our customers that their SSN's were stolen from our database?", that allowed us to push for greater security controls.
2) Consider focusing on the "virus-protection" market. I know a lot of small businesses completely struggle with Windows viruses that can bring down the network. Since good network security can help stop the spread of viruses, it might be a reasonable fit. "Stop the havoc that viruses cause" is a strong selling point.
3) Maybe offer a "security review and emergency assistance when needed" package. Basically, you do a review of their network for a nominal fee and then you're available for emergency issues if they have a security issue. Sell it as "now you'll know who to call if you really have a problem."
Once you get in to do the review, you can even make some suggestions to improve logging/auditing so that you can respond better in an emergency.
4) Get some street cred. Publish some articles on security issues, find a security weakness in Mozilla (we just heard that it's buggier than IE, right?) and get your name out there as a "security firm".
As an alternative, answer questions on newsgroups or forums. If you're good, you can get a rep as knowing your shit by answering people's questions. Sometimes, the sysadmin who asks for help could really use a consulting group instead.
Finally, one last piece of advice:
1) Always treat your clients' problems more seriously than they treat them. If your clients are a little concerned, you need to be very concerned. If they're satisfied, you need to be slightly concerned. And don't just sound like you're taking them more seriously - take them more seriously! If the client thinks it's a little problem, treat it like a big problem and get it fixed right away. If it's a big problem, treat it like it's the end of the world.
I know it sounds silly, but it means that every time your customers contact you, they will always get the impression that you're more on top of the problem and solution than they are. And that, in the consulting world, is gold!
Good luck.
-Peter
Re:Reputation first... (Score:1)
Re:Reputation first... (Score:1)
First hand experience with security business (Score:3, Interesting)
Most businesses were not concerned with actual security but more interested in what name they could put on their website that says "Secured by _______"
Because of this the business died since we hadn't made a name for ourselves. Sure some people were genuinely interested in security, but not enough to support a business.
If you're going to deal with security, keep it on the down low and offer it as a secondary service. As expensive as security audits are, name means more than anything. If your company isn't widely known for security, you'll find doing security jobs hard to get as a primary offering.
Lifecycle Management Approach (Score:5, Insightful)
Treat it just like any other project that uses a cyclic lifecycle management. I'm supposing you already have your foot in the door, you are just unsure as to how to conduct yourself. At the end of each round, the customer can decide if they like the kind of progress being made and has the option to cancel the contract after each round if they disagree with methods or results. Start small and simple and develop their trust. If they really have security problems, you are best off finding a way to make them want to change rather than just telling them off.
Round 1: Spend one week writing a paper on the intellectual or physical property deemed essential to the company, and then document what measures the company believes they are practicing to protect them. At this point, you should also define your known enemies, be it a competitor or vast amounts of time wasted during virus outbreaks. Don't dwell on anything but the obvious as we all learned in the Six Dumbest Ideas In Computer Security [ranum.com] document.
Round 2: Propose a paper exercise approach to physical security, both in the server room and in the cubicle farms. Spend a week and not too much money. This will confirm or deny that declared in Round 1.
Round 3: Address disaster recovery options because arson and other DOS techniques are just as bad for protecting IP as is an electronic attack. This is a check to see if the current protections methods covered this usually underfunded area. Don't forget offsites.
Round 4: Propose, via contractual methods, solutions for closing gaping holes in the protection measures. That is, cover the areas for which no protection is provided, be it physical, procedural, or electronic. Implement if approved and have alternate, albeit less-effective approaches for those rejected due to cost or time.
Round 5: Propose a development area be established to test current and future configurations of electronic equipment for known attack vectors (e.g. new patches on a firewall don't open new ports). [At this stage, your customer has confidence that you know what you're doing, but it took you this long before you really started touching the inside of their network.] You never subject the production network to most scans, except maybe for proper patch deployment. All the exploit attempts happen in the lab.
Round 6: Like every good reader of Bruce Schneier's Secrets and Lies [schneier.com] , you now propose methods and procedures for monitoring and reacting to attacks against the core intellectual or physical property documented in Round 1. Depending on your company goals, you can hope to win this one, or you can let them run the service while you move on to another customer.
Tips: If you get lots of resistance at Round 1 telling you that you aren't moving fast enough, beware because you will be the victim of the blame game in Round 6. Don't forget that sometimes the attack vector is physical theft - encrypt core files anywhere they are found, most especially on laptops. Round 1 may have identified Internet access as a risk, so in Round 4, consider using a private, internal network and force all users to use thin-client tools for Internet access - no removable media, highly-enforced group policies, and the ability to quarantine viruses at the door. For that matter, proxy all Internet access and monitor it in Round 6.
Start making sales calls (Score:1)
bah (Score:4, Insightful)
"How do I perform a security audit?"
It's clear from the phrasing that you have no idea what system security actually is, so instead of asking how do you market it, and how do you talk to people about it, it'd probably be a good idea to understand it yourself.
Here are some hints:
* Real security professionals don't "test anyone's firewall."
* Real security professionals don't "discover" holes. They prove them.
It sounds like what you really want to know is "how do I go about charging people for my script collection?" which is a shameful thing indeed.
You are the reason business is booming for me, so while I despise everything you are, I will also offer you advise:
Learn how to build a secure system. Sell that. Sell the solution for customers that is a secure system. Don't offer to tell them what's wrong, but tell them what's right.
phenominally bad idea (Score:1, Interesting)
Here's my advice (Score:3, Informative)
DO NOT scan/test a company's network without their permission! This is the fast track to a jail cell. Like QuantumG said (albeit a little sarcastically), get a sales manager and expect to pay out a lot of money in advertising.
If you think you're post was well composed, I would recommend some English/technical writing classes. If you recognize your post has some grammar problems and you know your writing skills are good, I would not worry about it.
Check out Bruce Schneier [schneier.com], Counterpane Internet Security [counterpane.com], or SecurityFocus [securityfocus.com]. Gibson Research Corporation [grc.com] is another site to check out. This is just a start to getting some background on the basics and depth of IT "security".
I would say from the post you are not coming from a security background. Assuming you have an IT Bachelors degree, the minimum I would recommend is for you to study for some basic security certifications (such as the CompTIA Security+ and the MCSE/MCSA: Security on Windows Server 2003 specialization) and take them if you have not already. On top of this, I would recommend doing research into security conferences and possibly even local university classes on IT security (although I recommend these with a grain of salt as there is a lot of variance between the quality and type of information offered currently). There are whole books written on this subject, so visit your local bookstores and research what they have available. My rule of thumb in evaluating books is to see how in depth they get with their subjects. If they just talk in general about their subjects with no specific examples, I typically look for something else (unless it is an introductory book, of course).
Finally, just remember security is different to everyone (even in the business/corporate world). One company might just need you to identify their weak spots, patch them, and setup a plan to make sure they stay patched. Another company might need you to analyze everything from weak spots/patches to physical security of IT assets. Your job as a consultant would be to identify what they need (Business 101).
Hope this helps.
Me no speak English (Score:3, Insightful)
Easy: (Score:2)
Connotation (Score:1)
Best way is to meet your customer on the street (Score:1)
[kicks, screams]
- Please, where are you going? Don't leave me!
This is the way to do it (Score:2)
Hire a Sales Manager (Score:1)
IT Dude: We need to hire these guys to do an audit
Boss: Why? Aren't you doing your job? What am I paying you IT guys for?
I've seen variat
A good sales team/person (Score:1)
Your network is insecure! Click here to fix it !!! (Score:1)