Google Lawsuit Exposes Microsoft Offshoring Deal 429
2old2rockNroll writes "In more news from Microsoft's Google lawsuit, it appears that Ballmer's 2003 trip to China may have had as much to do with Microsoft moving jobs as selling software. It seems that the Chinese are not pleased with the number of jobs being moved to China, and one of Lee's duties was to identify jobs for export. Although hiring in Redmond has slowed, a Microsoft spokesperson admits they are "growing their work force" in China. Is it possible that Bill Gates' recent lament over the decline of US CS graduates and research spending was merely crocodile tears?"
SM's 'duh' moment of the week... (Score:5, Insightful)
How many times do people need to be reminded? Investing in MS is risking having your own money used against you in the marketplace.
Re:SM's 'duh' moment of the week... (Score:3, Insightful)
Anyone that holds MS stock is helping the practice of off-shoring as well.
Good news is, the Chinese aren't fooled by the likes of MS and Wal-Mart, so we can all rest easy knowing at least those two predators are being kept out of the hen-house.
Re:SM's 'duh' moment of the week... (Score:3, Insightful)
This would be true if China was a free market democracy, but they are not, they are a free market communism. The Chinese people, with the exception of the elites, are the ones who are really getting screwed by the fixed currency policies, but there is nothing that they can do about it because China is not a free society and the government kills or imprisons anyone who complains or speaks
Re:SM's 'duh' moment of the week... (Score:4, Funny)
HTFTNA. IBSTUTIFWIRTAFME. (Hey, thanks for the new acronym. I'll be sure to use that in future whenever I'm referring to a former microsoft employee).
Apart from bad mouthing Microsoft... (Score:5, Insightful)
Time to Retire C + +?' (Score:4, Funny)
I'm a first year programming student at an Ivy League school and I've
just finished my Visual Basic classes. This term I'll be moving onto
C++. However I've noticed some issues with C++ that I'd like to
discuss with the rest of the programming community. Please do not
think of me as being technically ignorant. In addition to VB, I am
very skilled at HTML programming, one of the most challenging
languages out there!
C++ is based on a concept known as Object Oriented Programming. In
this style of programming (also known as OOPS in the coding community)
a programmer builds "objects" or "glasses" out of his code, and then
manipulates these "glasses". Since I'm assuming that you, dear reader,
are as skilled at programming as I am, I'll skip further explanation
of these "glasses".
Please allow me to make a brief aside here and discuss the origins C++
for a moment. My research shows that this language is one of the
oldest languages in existence, pre-dating even assembly! It was
created in the early 70s when AT&T began looking for a new language to
write BSD, its Unix Operation System (later on, other companies would
"borrow" the BSD source code to build both Solaris and Linux!)
Interestingly, the name C++ is a pun by the creator of the language.
When the first beta was released, it was remarked that the language
would be graded as a C+, because of how hideously complex and unwieldy
it was. The extra plus was tacked on during a later release when some
of these issues were fixed. The language would still be graded a C,
but it was the highest C possible! Truly a clever name for this
language.
Back to the topic on hand, I feel that C++ - despite its flaws - has
been a very valuable tool to the world of computers. Unfortunately
it's starting to show its age, and I feel that it should be
retired, as COBOL, ADA and Smalltalk seem to have been. Recently I've
become acquainted with another language that's quite recently been
developed. Its one that promises to greatly simplify programming. This
new language is called C.
Although syntactically borrowing a great deal from its predecessor
C++, C greatly simplifies things (thus its name, which hints at its
simpler nature by striping off the clunky double-pluses.) Its biggest
strength is that it abandons an OOPS-style of programming. No more
awkward "objects" or "glasses". Instead C uses what are called
structs. Vaguely similar to a C++ "glass", a struct does away with
anachronisms like inheritance, namespaces and the whole
private/public/protected/friend access issues of its variables and
routines. By freeing the programmer from the requirement to juggle all
these issues, the coder can focus on implementing his algorithm and
rapidly developing his application.
While C lacks the speed and robustness of C++, I think these are petty
issues. Given the speed of modern computers, the relative sluggishness
of C shouldn't be an issue. Robustness and stability will occur as C
becomes more pervasive amongst the programming community and it
becomes more fine-tuned. Eventually C should have stability rivaling
that of C++.
I'm hoping to see C adopted as the de facto standard of programming.
Based on what I've learned of this language, the future seems very
bright indeed for C! Eventually, many years from now, perhaps we'll
even see an operating system coded in this language.
Thank you for your time. Your feedback is greatly appreciated.
Re:Time to Retire C + +?' (Score:2, Insightful)
" While C lacks the speed..."
Small nitpick... C should actually be faster...
Re:Time to Retire C + +?' (Score:3, Informative)
That sort of thing seems to be lost on a lot of the people who responded to it.
Re:Apart from bad mouthing Microsoft... (Score:3, Informative)
why is this significant again? Companies offshore all the time. Hell, some companies move their headquarters to different continents.
Perhaps it's significant because Microsoft is whining about declining CS enrollment and lobbying the government for an increase in the H-1B cap, when they really aren't doing much local hiring. It is significant because what they say for publication is a lie, and their real interest is solely in cheaper labor. It also seems significant that they are apparently buying Ch
Re:Apart from bad mouthing Microsoft... (Score:2, Interesting)
Microsoft is probably still an overall benefit, as it is likely bringing more money in than sending abroad.
Your balance of trade and deficit issues boggle the imagination- but MS is the least of your worries there.
Re:Apart from bad mouthing Microsoft... (Score:5, Insightful)
I don't know about the US because I'm in the UK but having a degree doesn't mean much these days. You're sold it as proof you can perform, but frankly that's a load of toss for most degrees. You come out with some academic idea of how things should be done without any real world experience. When hiring I've never looked at anyone's qualifications, but at their experience. Even when looking to take on junior roles, those suitable for people just out of college I've asked them what they've done outside of their school work, looked for web sites they've "developed", or code they've written. I've yet to see a degree that will instil anything I've wanted from a candidate other than a rudimentary idea of OO design and some half assed attempt at lifecycle methodologies.
University degrees do not entitle you to a job and if you're one of the people that treat them as such I suggest you get a large grip on reality. No-one owes you anything.
Re:Apart from bad mouthing Microsoft... (Score:5, Insightful)
I've done a lot of hiring work in the past, and will tell you straight that a degree gives you a huge level of credibility over someone who claims "x years of experience".
The work market as is, those claims are almost invariably exaggerated.
Which leaves either a work portfolio (which means you need someone with both time and qualification to audit it, and ensure it's actually their own work), or some form of accredited certification that they are capable.
Now, I've done a degree (two actually), AND got commercial certification.
From the two of those, I'll have to say that the commercial offering will let you push the buttons with a minimal knowledge of what is really happening behind the scenes. It leaves the person, if they're relying on this as their main source of info, woefully unprepared for the real world where things exist in heterogenous enviornments, and problems actually occur.
Which leaves a University degree.
Yes, it says that the person knows a lot in theory, but fresh out of Uni, they have little practical application of it yet.
However, what is says is they understand WHY things work in their discipline, and can work it out with a book, and a very good grounding in first principles.
In 95%+ of cases, they rapidly outstrip the 'experience only' people across a broad spectrum of understanding. Degrees train you how to learn, not spoon feed you a few lines that you quote back by rote.
Is a degree a 'guarantee of a job'? Not at all these days. Will it give you a head and shoulders leap over someone with only experience? Absolutely.
If someone working for me couldn't justify why they'd brought someone on board with experience only, over someone with experience plus degree, I'd want a very good reason as to why. Otherwise they'd find their ability to make any decision of responsibility removed sharpish.
Re:Apart from bad mouthing Microsoft... (Score:5, Insightful)
Well I do a lot of hiring now, and manage a large technical organization, and I say it depends on the field. In hiring engineers (real ones... not "software" :), a degree really, really matters. No one is going to have some guy without a degree design a bridge or a building.
I think computer software is different because of how fast the technology has been moving. Not only is experience better than a degree (with both being ideal), but people with a degree don't need it in CS. In fact, I prefer people with math degrees who learned languages "on the job." I've also had very good luck with mechanical engineers (I think it's the same thought process in mechanical as in software... ie, chain reactions).
If you look at the past, you'll see it's the same in all professions. When a field of study is new, experience is far more important than formal education, since the formal education rarely keeps up with a fast moving technology (in University, I learned assembler on a mainframe that hadn't been manufactured in over a decade).
As the pace of change in a given technology slows down, as it always does, formal education catches up, and then you will see much more entry-level quality out of those who have a CS degree than either those who don't have a degree or have it in a different field.
Re:Apart from bad mouthing Microsoft... (Score:4, Interesting)
A lot of valid points coming to light.
The best team I've worked in, way back when was multidisciplinary. A PhD mathematician (who could take sections of the implementations I'd made and fine tune them to a level that left me boggling), myself (Real Time Systems Bsc), a couple of experience bods who'd worked their way up over time, and the boss who was an Elecronic Engineer (Msc).
I ended up doing the software engineering (as we didn't need formal spec) and systems architecture (along with a fair bit of coding afterwards), the mathematician took areas where the algorithms were inefficient, and optimised them away.. The experience coders did a good job of the coding..
And the boss knew exactly what management processes to use for engineering a project (from extensive experience).
A lot of the problems with software today are simply caused because people don't engineer them.
Commerce is trying to make a fast buck, and, in the bridge analogy, is saying "We can put up a couple of ropes and tie them to a tree. What do you need a proper footbridge over the road for?".
So, a lot of software is built like the ropes over the road. It's cheap, shoddy, but does the job, with the odd few bits falling off and causing no end of consternation.
I'm behind you all the way on saying that a mathematician or an engineer (my first degree was in Chemical Engineering by the way) can apply the same processes as a CS grad, and will (in the longer term, which is where you should always be aiming anyway) be just as good.
I was pointing out that the properly educated CS grad will from the word go have a better instinctive grasp of what to do as concerns the tools and methods of engineering as applied to software.
First choice for me on software hires is Computer related degree plus good experience and track record. Very closely followed by Engineering/Math/Philosophy/Science degrees with the same level of experience and track record.
Then comes long track record and extensive experience with no degree, followed by Computing related degree with no/little experience, then the science/engineering degrees with little or no experience.
For someone with a small track record, and no degree, I'd not really go for that. They may be good. They may be highly skilled.
But if they're up against someone who's proved they have a high ability to learn, and has a good knowledge of a wide spectrum of theories in the field that they can bring to bear, they're just not going to get the job.
For much the same reason, I suspect, that you may find someone who knows how to build a bridge really really well.. You're just not going to hire him unless he's done that degree..
Really, I think it all boils down to me wanting to see that degree to prove someone's serious. I just have a slight preference for CS over the other disciplines (having done both, and seeing how my perspectives were altered slightly by doing the computing degree).
Re:Apart from bad mouthing Microsoft... (Score:3, Insightful)
[Re: Hiring of non-CS graduates into software engineering roles]
"...I've also had very good luck with mechanical engineers (I think it's the same thought process in mechanical as in software... ie, chain reactions)...
I agree (Having a 14 year software career on the back of a BEng in mechanical engineering).
Although EE is the "classic" non-CS precursor to a software engineering role, Mech Eng does have the following going for it:
Re:Apart from bad mouthing Microsoft... (Score:2)
The company I currently work at used to hire based on experience, and some of our best coders have no degree. Then it got big enough to have an HR department and now we only get people with degrees. When you are in a company where the hiring is done by technical people, degrees mean very little, but when non technical HR lackies get involved, it becom
Re:Apart from bad mouthing Microsoft... (Score:2, Insightful)
Unless you're getting HR write the specs for the person you need it shouldn't be any different. You're the one that sets the requirements, if HR are changing them I suggest a clue stick is in order.
Re:Apart from bad mouthing Microsoft... (Score:2)
Looking only at their experience and never at their qualifications is just as silly as looking only at their qualifications and never at their experience. Both qualifications and experience contribute to the skills a person has to offer. Unless you're being facetious to prove a point, you should be considering both when evaluating a potential recruit.
I've met a lot of so-called programmers with 10-15 years experience w
Re:Apart from bad mouthing Microsoft... (Score:2)
Studied Macro-economics long ago. The academic answer is not really always the case, because it frees up resources (people) in one economy to do what they are better at or what is more profitable.
If she export a thousand jobs to China for making ping-pong balls and we convert our thousand workers to something else (say making foobar whi
Re:Apart from bad mouthing Microsoft... (Score:2)
I certainly don't want to get a job just because I happen to live in the US. I want to get it on my individual merits. If that means I have to compete with people in China and India, so be it.
"Exporting jobs is just plain bad for any economy. It reduces jobs and increases the money flow out of the country. The US is experiencing some serious economic
Nothing new for companies as large as MS (Score:5, Insightful)
That's called "marketing". Microsoft cries shortage, geeks raise their hands like an eager student with an answer in class. I sure as hell would take a job from Microsoft if given the opprotunity. I'd surely go to hell for it as well, but fact is... Microsoft is on top, and will be for a long time. With top-rung knowledge and experience, one can definitely sprint to retirement well before 99% of the people that (s)he graduated with from secondary school.
Other thing is, China has a lot of people. And a lot of smart people. Survey says: Cheap labour and lots of it.
Re:Nothing new for companies as large as MS (Score:5, Insightful)
I find this statement very questionable. Microsoft is big, rich, and entrenched. Those are pretty much their only virtues. On the other hand, when was the last time you heard anyone talking about a Microsoft product in anything but a lament? When was the last time you heard people eagerly talking about Microsoft's next move, like you hear so often with Google nowadays. Microsoft doesn't get the pick of the talent anymore, either. Microsoft only has two successful products - Windows and Office. Quite frankly, I think Microsoft is at the beginning of the same kind of decline that the industry has seen so often from the former giants like DEC and HP and IBM (before IBM re-invented itself)
Re:Nothing new for companies as large as MS (Score:5, Insightful)
Not only that, but big and rich doesn't mean you'll stay on top for a long time, at least not when you're a publicly-traded company.
Back in 1984 or so, IBM was the big player in the PC space. IBM was, and still is, a huge company. Someone back then may have also assumed that IBM would stay on top of the PC market for a long time, but look what happened to them. It took them a long time to recover from the "attack of the clones", and even then they never regained top-dog status, and just recently gave up altogether by selling that division off to the Chinese company Lenovo.
Big companies can go from market leader to market loser or even bankrupt in a very short time.
Re:Nothing new for companies as large as MS (Score:4, Insightful)
A more apt comparison would be to say that IBM was a huge player in the mainframe market. And where are they now? They're still a huge player in the mainframe market. It is just that this market has slowly eroded, and IBM is slowly changing to accommodate this. Likewise, only when the PC market will dwindle does Microsoft have anything to fear. Finally, 40 billion dollars go a long way for living through hard times. Don't count on Microsoft going away in the next few decades.
Re:Nothing new for companies as large as MS (Score:2, Insightful)
That 40 billion dollars is owned by the shareholders. Shareholders expect a return, whether on capital growth, or returns as dividends.
If Microsoft stop performing well, the shares will drop in price, unless they make payouts to shareholders (who would think it's a good investment). Shareholders will start coveting that large stash of money and demanding a piece of it.
That 40 billion could disappear in a second, from out of the c
Re:...and selling on as many markets (Score:2)
The Japanese have perfected everything, really...
You should see the STUFF they have.
Just curious, but do you have any particular examples in mind? I know that there are tons of gadgets that come out in the Japanese consumer market first that rarely get introduced to other markets, but in terms of marketing software, what do they have that is different?
I feel like a spectator... (Score:2, Interesting)
Re:I feel like a spectator... (Score:3, Interesting)
Religious right (Score:2)
In the west at the moment, stupidity, ignorance are integral to our culture, even those who are irreligious and are worn like badges of honour.
I feel like a kibbitzer... (Score:2)
Heh, looks like black forced white to use a move up killing those dead stones -- now black has sente for the all-important endgame AND white has lost his best ko threat. I think that move decided the game for black.
Remember, folks, kibbitzing is the most important part of go!
In other news, this story is just 'China kicks US ass', and that's a truism in go as well as industry.
Oh no! (Score:5, Insightful)
People really, really need to put this into perspective.
Comment removed (Score:5, Insightful)
Re:Perspective? (Score:2)
It also weakens your own economy, but that's another story.
Oh dear. (Score:5, Insightful)
*sigh*
Re:Oh dear. (Score:2)
DMouse: This is your boss. Please report to work bright and early on Tuesday morning for training. You'll be doing the training... of your Chinese replacement.
Re:Oh dear. (Score:2)
There are now no more emerging industries coming. The tech industry is the last big job boom America will ever see except in the low paying service industry.
Plus we are now totally vulnerable to intellectual property theft and identity fraud against our citizens by foreign criminals who are inherently immune to FBI prosecution.
The cheese has been moved and there is less of it and more mice competing.
Re:Oh dear. (Score:2)
Yes, because there is a limited set of work to be done. Uhuh.
No. There is no limit to the amount of software that needs to be written. I can think of five or six desktop apps, about twenty webservices, and a fistful of embedded devices I need/want/desire.
Get out there and start being creative for chrissakes. Stop whinging that the invisible "them" is responsible for your misfortunes. It is all down to you. Anything else is a cop out.
Re:Oh dear. (Score:2)
Same was said during the phase of factory automation in the 1930's - 1940's. There was even legislation proposed to outlaw factory automation (can't seem to find link, however, sorry, someone have it?). Then America rocketed to the front of world economy in the post-WW2 boom of the 1950's. Predicting the future is a risky business.
I just read a story in the past 2 months about European drug makers o
Re:Oh dear. (Score:5, Interesting)
Until early this year, I worked for Sun in the UK. They decided, in their infinite lack-of-wisdom, to close my office and lay everyone off (and have been trying to hire some people back ever since realising what a stupid move that was), pretty much because they thought they could replace us with much cheaper employees in Bejing.
So I went and got myself a job in Hong Kong - like Bejing, only a lot more expensive, widely English-speaking, and bloody civilised
Re:Oh dear. (Score:2)
Re:Oh dear. (Score:2)
I've been to Beijing and Hong Kong, but unfortunately I have not been to Mexico City, so I cannot quite evalualte your comparison.
Hong Kong is a like a European or American city in many ways (especially on the island), but there is still an element of asian street life. Beijing today is a lot richer and more developed than it was just a few years ago, and thus more like HK (or NYC or New York) than most third world cities. But it is still dirty, and you can still feel the presense of a dictatorial non-plura
Re:Oh dear. (Score:2)
Re:Oh dear. (Score:2)
Re:Oh dear. (Score:2)
The moral is be good at your job. And if you can't be in the top half of people doing a job that is so easily mobile, you ought to pick a trade career that is less likely to be outsourced.
And like you say, its no different now than any time else in recent history (
1.75% of the work force (Score:5, Insightful)
In addition, it's very probable that most of those jobs are for non-critical, non-core projects. This frees up the local developers to work on more important projects.
Could Microsoft hire more local workers to fill these positions? Sure... but it's hardly news that Microsoft outsources 1.75% of its workforce.
They do Chinese work too (Score:2)
I can't imagine a better way to develop a product that they know will work well for the Chinese than to have it built in China.
Frankly, I applaud this.
Re:1.75% of the work force (Score:2)
Sure, you can hire people off the street with skills. But isn't it easier to get lesser skilled people? You put them to work in the easy jobs, and you see how they perform in your work enviroment plus the get a better idea of how to work with your IT needs.
Now you have a pool to draw from when your higher level programmers bail, with a proven track record in the company.
Fallacy of "non-core" projects.. (Score:2)
Did you realize what you just gave away ?. It's called racial elitisim, but now with a nationalistic fringe attitude. You start off by giving away the unwanted and least important jobs to the immigrants or just plain offshore them, and before you know it you have a huge population of educated unemployed and per-capita income just comes cr
Re:Fallacy of "non-core" projects.. (Score:2)
Did you realize what you just gave away ? It's called racial elitisim, but now with a nationalistic fringe attitude.
Sorry to tell you this, as you are from an "offshoring destination", but this is a standard sales pitch FROM the offshore companies. Look at any of the India majors: TCS, Wipro, INFY, Satyam, whatever. You will see in their
Re:1.75% of the work force (Score:3, Insightful)
Microsoft offshoring 1.75% of its workforce every year is a big deal.
Do you have any idea how quickly this adds up? Think where they'll be in ten years, or twenty.
grumble grumble... won't even read the bloody article... grumble grumble
Hah hah! (Score:5, Insightful)
So when all the jobs are outsourced and everyone around the world is making $8/hr in the new Global Economy, who is going to be able to afford $200 for an operating system? Or $500 for Office? Or $1500 for Adobe?
Re:Hah hah! (Score:2, Insightful)
Re:Hah hah! (Score:2, Insightful)
MOVING and EXPORTING jobs is not the same as HIRING new people for new jobs.
Re: (Score:2)
Please give the man some credit (Score:2, Insightful)
They have risen! Beware! (Score:5, Funny)
The schools have attained self-awareness!
Our only chance is to strike them down while they are occupied futility arguing on Slashdot and are not creating weapons of ultimate doom out of cafeteria food.
Re:Please give the man some credit (Score:2)
Repeat after me: Microsoft is a net drain on education funds.
Re:Please give the man some credit (Score:2, Insightful)
So how much do you donate to education outside of your property taxes? (assuming you don't live in your parents basement, you actually own real property, and that you are employed... very unlikely for most slashdot readers)
People will never learn (Score:2, Interesting)
Makes sense. (Score:4, Interesting)
It would be good if before that happens, Microsoft could hedge their bets with a nation that can truly understand and respect them. China understands that capitalism should be used as a tool of oppression, not a tool to fight it, so they're the perfect escape from any other nation who might sit up once in awhile, remember that monopolies hurt markets, and try to meddle in the internal affairs of a company just because they're committing injustice or breaking the law or something. Rupert Murdoch is big on China for the exact same reason.
China has its own agenda (Score:5, Informative)
If Microsoft think they have a cushy retreat in China, they are in for a nasty surprise. As much as I dislike the way Chinese government tramples human rights, their ways of keeping greedy corporations in their place deserves some respect.
This Lawsuit will be the Gift that Keeps on GIving (Score:5, Interesting)
I somehow suspect that M$ will continue coming off as anti-human, anti-worker and just plain nasty.
Re:This Lawsuit will be the Gift that Keeps on GIv (Score:2)
I'll just assume using a "pop cord" when enjoying a show is some kind of geek activity and move on...
Crocodile tears (Score:4, Informative)
So now I know.
Re:Crocodile tears (Score:5, Informative)
Re:Crocodile tears (Score:2)
Why not use salivary ducts inside the mouth, rather than make your vision blurred? Also, with an animal as long-snouted as a crocodile, I doubt the tars would get THAT far into the mouth anyway.
More likely I expect it to be a spin off of some histamine-like hormone causing many similar glands, including tear and salivary glands, to respond.
What a concept... (Score:5, Insightful)
This is news?
Re:What a concept... (Score:3, Interesting)
WTF! Who the hell cares about how pleased they are? You do want native people in China, but you don't *move* jobs there, you create jobs there! Expanding into a market doesn't mean you fire people in your old markets. Sheesh!
It's all logical. (Score:2, Interesting)
If you pay people, they will come (Score:2)
Test is getting outsourced to China (Score:3, Interesting)
What was said above was only about China, though. Indian insiders seem to push real hard to get not only testing, but also development and program management to India. However, since they aren't (yet) an overwhelmin majority here, only low-impact work items go to India, so that if folks in India fuck it up (and they often do), we could fix the situation without slipping the schedule much. Overall, I'd say "split" development leads to worse code quality, but it's still a lot better than if all of it was developed in India.
Re:Test is getting outsourced to China (Score:2)
I'm an IT consultant; I've worked for some pretty big firms. Not a single projects I've had that's dealt with outsourcing in India and/or China didn't have massive, horrible problems with being "F*@& up". Poor quality, people who wouldn't do jack shit without a work order in triplicate, semi-literate (no, not just the language barrier) "support" people, industrial espionage of the lowest, most horrible base, lacking
they're sincere... (Score:5, Interesting)
In any case, even without Microsoft's destructive influence, Chinese high-tech workers would still be competing with US high-tech workes. And the Chinese government is fully within its rights to demand that any company doing business with/in China move jobs there--the US government is doing the same thing.
Re:they're sincere... (Score:2)
MSFT may destroy CS but the industry as a whole is destroying itself.
Simple reason: There is no craft anymore. Nobody does anything that is just "cool". Well at least nobody in a position to market new things. Any real innovation you see that is ALSO beneficial to people will come in the form of OSS projects.
Tom
Microsoft vrs the USA (Score:4, Funny)
Re:Microsoft vrs the USA (Score:2)
Microsoft doesn't have to compete on quality. All they need to do is sit on their butts and be happy that most organizations are locked into using their software because so much third-party software runs only on Windows. The antitrust trial was necessary, and American consumers were hurt when the DoJ se
Funny that....... (Score:4, Interesting)
Last Wednesday I see this:
China Daily covers an anti-Linux FUD campaign being run by the China Software Industry Association. [lwn.net] "Sun Yufang, a Chinese scholar who has long been researching Linux software, says most Linux developers cannot make a living under the current business model. Most of these developers 'either have died or have focused on other businesses in past years,' Sun says."
And then today:
Google Lawsuit Exposes Microsoft Offshoring Deal.
I wonder if these two events are in any way related?
MS in China: trying to have its cake and eat it (Score:3, Informative)
Several years back Ballmer shook hands on a $100M outsourcing plsu $20M investment deal that senior management found it hard to live up to, and so they amended it to $55M in jobs and $60M in investments in Chinese IT.
If you look at the Seattle Times article [nwsource.com], there are links to the court filings, including KFL's deposition, where he indicates that a major part of his work on MS's international business since coming back to the states, has been keeping MS from making blunders. These include making ill-advised promises that it hasn't been able to live up to, and (if it had) would have meant outsourcing at a rate that would strip American jobs, despite its assurances.
Mirosoft's China strategy is starting to fall apart as its hiring has slowed stateside and it becomes evident that it's trying to have its cake and eat it too.
Re:And this is a suprise because (Score:3, Funny)
Re:I don't get it. (Score:3, Insightful)
Basically, with corporate budgets (and yes, even at microsoft's size is fixed) Windows is a zero-sum game - Linux jobs are not a zero-sum game because the more people that contribute the more my work can build on them.
Re:I don't get it. (Score:3, Insightful)
Re:I don't get it. (Score:3, Insightful)
Besides promulgating the "all of Slashdot speaks with one voice" fallacy, you are confusing competition for goods and services with competition for jobs.
Re:I don't get it. (Score:2, Insightful)
Put another way, competition is a good thing as long as it's somebody else doing the competing...
Re:I don't get it. (Score:3, Interesting)
Job competition is the same as any other type of free market competition . Offering a service or goods for the best price and let the consumer choose
The only thing i can see as illogical about off shoring is tha
Re:I don't get it. (Score:5, Insightful)
Complaining about outsourcing and how it will steal our jobs isn't going to change the fact that right now the people overseas are likely doing their job cheaper, faster, and in many cases better than the 'equivalent' US worker. Instead, get off your ass, find opportunities...
Actually having worked with some of those overseas people I can tell you they are not doing the job cheaper, faster, or better. What they usually do is make the job take three times as long as it should, consistently foul up the most simple tasks, and hop jobs to a better "overseas" position in the middle of the project. But thats not the point I want to make.
While the US is collectively sitting on its "ass" as you say, the government has been shipping money and expertise overseas at an unreal rate. Consider when you run enormous trade defecits, increase the unemployment level of your "skilled" workers, and in the process ship all your technical expertise over to a country which in the near future will likely be your competitor rather than your cheap slave labor, it paints a very bad long term picture. In the end, you will end up being the 3rd world country, while your technically skilled overseas counterparts will be reaping the profits of your giveaways.
On top of that, while your sitting here in the US surrounded by hoards of unemployed workers who sat on their collective ass during the whole thing, those workers are no longer contributing to the tax base, in fact they are all on welfare - so who exactly is going to be paying for the roads your driving on, and the schools your kids go to? The small fraction of elite workers left here who still have jobs certainly aren't going to support it all.
Isn't it interesting that we are not exporting our CEO jobs overseas? After all, by your logic those overseas CEOs should be doing the job cheaper, faster, and better, right? Or do you mean only lowly semi-skilled overseas workers do things cheaper, faster, and better?
In any event, the US government needs to be more proactive in protecting its interests in this area. Companies run on the work done by their entire lower rank - the grunt jobs. And I would bet most such jobs have some amount of technical expertise, and more importantly experience. For many jobs if you gave me a choice of choosing someone with a PhD and little experience, versus someone with 20years experience I would tend to choose the experienced one rather than the PhD. But at the rate we are exporting our technical expertise we won't have anyone left here with long term experience (the ones with the most will retire, and no one will replace them).
Re:I don't get it. (Score:2)
Re:I don't get it. (Score:2)
Nothing prevents anyone anywhere from working on, or selling services related to, Linux. If it had been proprietary, you'd have to move to Finland to work on it.
Re:I don't get it. (Score:2, Insightful)
Re:I don't get it. (Score:5, Insightful)
The Chinese and Indians are free to open all the companies they want to employ their own people. They don't need American companies coming there to have jobs. To insinuate that Chinese and Indian people are incapable of starting their own companies, instead of merely working at the whim of Americans, seems extremely insulting to me. India has many successful native companies, such as Tata and Wipro, and China has many other successful native companies like Lenovo (which just bought out IBM's PC business).
Re:I don't get it. (Score:2)
Re:I don't get it. (Score:3, Insightful)
When people from all over the world can write for Microsoft, it's a bad thing, because Americans should get all the jobs?
I don't follow. What's so special about Americans that they should get all the jobs? Doesn't sound like that's a very healthy situation.
What would be the repsonse if jobs were being outsourced to Britain or Australia?
Re:Um, Stallman is an American (Score:2)
Would not, perhaps yes. But of course it *could* exist, it's not like gcc is the only C compiler there is for Linux to have been developed with originally.
It's as much the other way around, GNU would be a fringe phenomenon without the success of Linux... Somehow I don't see Stallman successfully leading an international free operating system development, way too much ego in that head (which isn't necessarily a bad thing, just a wrong thing for starting some
Re:Um, Stallman is an American (Score:2, Insightful)
Without the GNU movement, nothing would have happened. Linux (the kernel) was an inevitable an obvious goal after that. Stallman simply does not get the credit he deserves, and Linus is given credit for a movement, license, ideology and an OS where credit for a kernel is due.
Re:Um, Stallman is an American (Score:2)
That is a phenomenally ignorant statement. There are other C compilers, even at the time Linux was first written.
Re:GoogleDot (Score:5, Funny)
Comment removed (Score:5, Insightful)
Re:Hang on (Score:5, Informative)
Devs from India come to Redmond to meet with developers here and they're welcomed with open arms. They're treated the same as other devs. They come out to lunch with us, attend morale events, company functions, etc.
We're an international company...and we hire internationally. Get over it. We're going to hire smart people all over the world. We always have, it's just that now there are options other than having them move half-way around the world.
Re:Hang on (Score:3, Informative)
Nice out, that. I'm sure the MSFT hiring managers would be happy to hire folks with a Masters in CS and 5-10 years experience within the US if they could only get them to work for 21,200 USD/year. (Starting salary in China for a BS in CS was 13,300 USD/year from the 2003 EE Survey.)
Re:Outsourcers are treasonous traitors. Hang them (Score:2)
I agree it should be illegal but not because it deprives you of a job but because it reinforces slave labour and the net result is often Engrish ridden crap products.
But if I can pay someone fairly [but less than you] elseehere.... too bad. You're asking for too much salary.
I mean when the average developer in California is asking upwards of 100K/yr to do what the average person ANYWHERE else would get 55-65K/yr no shit they'll go elsewhere.
Unfortunately when they do outsource it
Re:Outsourcers are treasonous traitors. Hang them (Score:3)
Oh, great post! Claim that we're headed for third-world status, and then follow up with a call for mob-style lynching! Wow is that backwards.
"Humble" opinion? I think you confused the word "humble" with the word "stupid." This being the USA, you are more than welcome to express your opinions. I