UK Companies Love IT Workers, Love Not Returned 352
Roblimo writes "'The study, completed in early July, showed that U.K. employees working in the information technology industry are more valued than they think they are,' says a story at ITMJ.com, but it also says, 'According to the results of the survey, only 45% of IT workers feel valued at work, and 70% don't believe that their job reflects their true potential.' Not only that, but 'Seventy-five percent feel discriminated against because of their age; 43% say their bosses think they are too young, and 32% feel too old.' That leaves only 25% who believe they're the right age for their jobs, and only 30% who feel they're working to their true potential. Does this mean U.K. employers need to worry about a mass exodus from the I.T. field, or is this just normal griping?"
Just Griping. (Score:5, Interesting)
Does this mean U.K. employers need to worry about a mass exodus from the I.T. field, or is this just normal griping?
Griping, as they say: "The grass is always greener on the other side."
The reality is that often it isn't, people (not just IT workers) fail to see just how good their job is and resign themselves to being miserable about it. I program C# about 50% of the time, do internal user support 10% of the time, reply to emails 10% time (this annoys me), deal with external customer support another 10% of the time. The remaining 20% is probably spent on administration etc.
I love my job, I love the variety, the sallary is good for my age and my coworkers are motivated but easy enough to get a long with. A think a key failing with IT people is believing you can storm in at 20 and somehow be a senior developer. I have a simple message to people with this attitude: you're not a genius, get over yourself; this trade takes a long time to learn. Just because you hacked together a perl script to do something useful on your private linux box doesn't make you a seasoned professional. Building professional code takes as much experience as it does intelligence.
Serve your apprenticeship get the experience and become a better coder. Don't be arrogant towards your superiors because believe it or not most of the time they deserve to be there. Remember, your time will come and for the moment there is a lot of wisdom in just be content with what you have: A brilliant job where you can be creative and intelligent.
Simon.
Re:Just Griping. (Score:4, Insightful)
A think a key failing with IT people is believing you can storm in at 20 and somehow be a senior developer.
No, I think a key failing in the IT field is the application of double-standards.
For example, one job I had in my early twenties, I was relatively inexperienced. I'd had a lot of "hobby experience" and only one proper job on my CV (a company that ceased trading, so it looked pretty suspect).
Naturally, I was taken on in this new job as a "junior developer". What I wasn't told was that 75% of the development team had handed their notice in, including basically everybody who was capable of doing what it is I was taken on to do.
Within a few months, I was basically doing the job of this 75%. I was barely keeping up with the work (a lot of putting out fires), but the owner of the firm wasn't willing to hire anybody with experience - or, for that matter, anybody who could actually code.
See, I was desperately unhappy at that job, for various reasons. The main one, though was that I was treated as the junior developer for the purposes of salary, and my opinion on things was taken as seriously as a junior developers would be, but when it came to responsibility or workload, I was treated as some kind of hero programmer who could fix everything.
The owner wanted it both ways - a cheap junior programmer he could ignore, and a skilled programmer who could do the work of many. While I can't say for sure that this sort of attitude is widespread, it certainly looks that way to me. So don't be so quick to assume that it's an inflated ego that causes young people to think they can do a lot - maybe it's just that they are actually doing a lot, and just not being treated accordingly.
Re:Just Griping. (Score:2)
Re:Just Griping. (Score:3, Informative)
That is so true. When I got out of college with my software engineering degree, looking for "junior" jobs (knowing that I shouldn't aim for intermediate and senior positions anyway), I found a whole lot of openings with descriptions like "Junior progrogrammer position, requires 5 years of experience in C# as well as 3 years of database management experience". A whole lot of companies expect people to come out of col
Re:Just Griping. (Score:2)
I think the major problems with IT staff and corporations are:
a) they often lump anyone having anything to do with computers into one blanket term "IT"
b) they see this staff as a "cost center" and a
Re:Just Griping. (Score:2)
Welcome to the real world. This has nothing at all to do with IT, all industries are like this. I guessed the problem is that when you come in to these
Re:Just Griping. (Score:2)
Simple solution: don't. If they don't pay you enough to work more than 8 hours, don't work more than 8 hours. Even if that means the software won't make release date. Your job is to code. Making sure the software works and is released on time is your boss's job.
Re:Just Griping. (Score:2)
After 2 years full-time programming work, you should be looking for a "journeyman" job - one that has to deal with lots of legacy code
Re:Just Griping. (Score:2)
Re:Just Griping. (Score:2)
Beyond that point, your skills are only going to grow in depth by seeing the true results in the field and maint
You know, this happened to me just today. (Score:3, Insightful)
But today I had one of our new hires come in and ask a few questions about solutions that are pretty much daily routine - obvious - to me now. And I realized that 5 years ago, I had to ask very similar questions. Since then, I had become the expert. And thinking about it, there are a lot of job proficiencies and responsibilities I've
Re:You know, this happened to me just today. (Score:3, Insightful)
Q: What's the technical term for an employee whose skills and responsibilites increase significantly, but without a proportionate increase in salary?
A: Schmuck.
Without going too much into detail, the same thing is happening right now to my wife. She was brought in at a very late stage (just before user acceptance testing) on a software project that has be
Re:You know, this happened to me just today. (Score:2)
I worked as a DBA after I left school. On of the more experienced DBAs that I worked with an experienced DBA who was on-call 24x7 and was one of the only operations people who knew how the massive application that we administered worked inside and out.
Her pay in 2000? $27k after five years.
I was making nearly $50 as a clueless newbie two weeks out of school because I negotiated.
Re:You know, this happened to me just today. (Score:2)
What she ought to do... (Score:2)
Sean
Re:You know, this happened to me just today. (Score:2)
Re:Just Griping. (Score:3, Insightful)
I'm not convinced about this. I've worked in many companies where IT staff are treated visibly worse than those in other roles. The only exception is remuneration -- we're paid better than those in other areas. But this in itself leads to problems. Many companies see IT as a huge drain on their pockets, and resent us for it. The biggest problem, though,
Re:Just Griping. (Score:2)
And yet, according to the surveys in TFA, this is mostly wrong. Most IT workers are support - they don't directly make or sell the product - and so *of course* they're a cost to be minimized. This doesn't mean that employers have a sore spot for IT vs, for example, facilities expenses. Nothing is hated more than facilities costs when you're stuck with a bad lease! How many companies actuall
Re:Just Griping. (Score:2)
Ok, so I am 30 now, I am senior developer and still feel like being discriminated against for being too young. I had since my 11 to learn about this trade and I am darn good at it and yeah, my IQ is way above the top half percentile line required by the definition of th
Re:Just Griping. (Score:2)
There are tricks for appearing older (eg, grow a beard, act more mature, dress better, add a little grey to hair, etc). Ie, act and appear older, and people will treat you that way. These usually solve this sort of problem.
Re:Just Griping. (Score:2)
*ducks*
Re:Just Griping. (Score:2)
Or go bald. Balding men usually seem a bit older than they are - which can be an advantage when dealing with others.
Re:Just Griping. (Score:3, Insightful)
The very first thing that spun me out about "office" bosses as compared to a "dirt" boss was that they said "please" and "thank-you". The idea that a boss would let you manage your time without a clock card was also a new experience
Your case may not be typical (Score:2)
Most of that time has been as a contractor. That distorts the workplace experience a little, but it also means I've seen a lot of different companies and how they treat their personel. I'm quite content in my current role, but I think I've seen both ends of the spectrum over that time.
Increasingly over that period, some environemts have come to see IT staff as a necessary evil. One CEO of a s
Re:Your case may not be typical (Score:2)
Re:Just Griping. (Score:2, Insightful)
- a complete lack of knowledge or interest in how they do their job; or, more pertinently how long it takes to do things
- repeated promises by people in charge to get jobs done far quicker than they can actually be done, leading to horrendous crunch periods
- an assumption that anyone i
Re:Just Griping. (Score:2)
When you present those people with the same problems you describe, the money is no longer attractive. Especially in a post-bubble economy where the paychecks are half of what they used to be (or less!).
A quick note on your last "problem":
While coders aren't usually hand-picked for management, the Peter Principle [wikipedia.org] is still in effect. Many
Re:Just Griping. (Score:2)
If you're not yet a master of your trade (which means at least 5 years real full-time experience, even if you're brilliant, and probably 8 years for most who think they're brilliant), you're not work
If only it was that simple (Score:3, Interesting)
Yes, the trade takes a long time to learn, and I can certainly realize that after over 20 years of programming computers. But that also means enough time to see such "employee appreciation" as:
- control-freak PHB's.
True story: I've worked a couple of years for someone who genuinely thought that he nee
Re:If only it was that simple (Score:2)
I love it when people try shit like this with programmers. Thank Goddess for GUI automation tools! But mostly it's a helpful sign that you're not working for a good company,
Re:Just Griping. (Score:2)
In my experience, most IT managers couldn't find their ass with both hands and a hunting dog.
In other news: (Score:4, Funny)
Re:In other news: (Score:2)
Honest and dumb make up 10% of the population? Obviously evolution is a factor here.
I think we can all agree... (Score:4, Insightful)
I'm not surprised. I don't think anyone wants to imagine "Help Desk II" being the maximum of their potential.
Re:I think we can all agree... (Score:2)
Re:I think we can all agree... (Score:2)
Re:I think we can all agree... (Score:2)
I suspect this may be the same in every field. Personally, I'm a chemist, and the same situation applies. To get a job doing what you learned in a two-year
Re:I think we can all agree... (Score:2)
Re:I think we can all agree... (Score:2)
Re:I think we can all agree... (Score:2)
Also probably the one that qualifies people for management the best. If you can keep your temper when dealing with the dumbest of dumb on the phone, you're probably ready to politic with your peers successfully. Sadly, that's about all that qualifies peopl
It's just normal griping. (Score:5, Funny)
Now quit posting to Slashdot and get back to work. You've got a deadline coming up and it looks like you'll be working an 80-hour week to catch up. I suggest you get busy.
Re:It's just normal griping. (Score:3, Informative)
Actually I think the biggest problem is the lack of "pat on the back", alot of IT folks end up doing alot of jim'l'fixit's and it becomes an expectation. I personally don't think I am underpaid but sometimes a hoot of "you da man" would do miracles for my smiling...yes, we have egos, yes they need stroking..
Re:It's just normal griping (Score:2)
Quarterly mini-reviews might be nice. Nothing involving a salary adjustment, just a systematic plan for having a private chat with your boss.
Sturgeon's law correction (Score:2)
what those statistics intend to tell [1], apart from taking valuable space in front news?
[1] they can't, because it's statistics
PHB - leave us alone! (Score:2)
Re:PHB - leave us alone! (Score:2)
Re:PHB - leave us alone! (Score:2)
This is a huge problem! (Score:2)
Re:This is a huge problem! (Score:2)
Personally, I would love the money that other people who have studied for similar amounts of time get (Doctors, lawyers, etc) and I'd also love to be bullied less (You can't have your holiday now! Wait t
Re:This is a huge problem! (Score:2)
Re:This is a huge problem! (Score:2)
I wouldn't even waste my time considering learning VCR repair; you can pick up a new VCR for less than what any reasonable repair person would have to charge to fix the majority of faults.
Additionally, they'll be dead for pretty much any purpose in the next couple of years, as DVD recorders and PVRs (*especially* PVRs) take over.
In short, utterly pointless business to consider even working in; doubly stupid if you have to learn the skills first.
TVs may
Re:This is a huge problem! (Score:2)
Huh? You want to be a sheep dog?
It's not IT-specific, it might be UK specific (Score:2)
I see these problems in all our departments, not just IT.
And it has come to us in The Netherlands through an imported British manager.
Continental Europe has historicaly concidered worker participation as important, the UK fights this concept tooth and nail.
The feeling that you belong to the company and that your opinion is valued is an important factor for employee satisfaction and the company will prosper bacause of it.
Re:It's not IT-specific, it might be UK specific (Score:2)
Many of the USA's IT workers feel "unrequited love" for the work they do -- where IS the love?
No doubt, ma
Hypocrisy? (Score:2)
43% say their bosses think they are too young, and 32% feel too old.
Anyone else see hypocrisy there? The age of your boss is irrelevant so long as (s)he is competent.
Re:Speaking of age... (Score:2)
I'm curious as to what people think is "too old" for IT? I'd say that there could easily be problems where someone refuses to keep abreast of newer technology, but for someone who finds this an interesting challenge, how old is too old?
Re:What... (Score:2)
My general inability to read and think strikes again.
Comment removed (Score:3, Insightful)
Re:They only care when they can't surf the net (Score:2)
Is your life's end-goal really money? Or do you want money so you can spend more time with your family? Or what?
If it is in any way people-oriented, why can't that include people at work?
Obviously we need money to pay the bills and to live, but what's money if it isn't to free you so you can enjoy the truly pleasureable things in life? Just seems like an odd priority.
Re:They only care when they can't surf the net (Score:2)
The trick is to avoid software houses and consultancies. Writing in-house software is much more rewarding (in all senses of the term) and much less stressful. I've also found the standards are much higher with in-house coders which makes my own wor
IMHO (Score:2, Insightful)
Re:IMHO (Score:3, Informative)
The difference between the chap keeping the air conditioning working, and the guy who keeps the servers running is that when the air con fails, people open the windows to the street to let air in, and feel hot and bothered.
When the servers go down, the people who bring in the money suddenly can't contact by email the people they need to talk to, to get money in.
The secretaries can't produce documentation, or access their calendars. Meetings fall off the face of the earth. Important m
Re:IMHO (Score:2)
As an experiment, try rebooting your servers at 3pm and see what happens. Every, and I mean every department will decend on you like a ton of bricks because like it or not, IT is now the core of most businesses and not a service. Cripple the Finance departments software for a while and suppliers and employees don't get paid, cripple the order department for a day and everyone's schedules get set back.
A companies network is infrastructure in the same way that a road netw
Re:IMHO (Score:2)
As an experiment, try not paying your suppliers... No, wait, don't, as someone's already tried it [bbc.co.uk] this week. You lack an understanding of the true significance of other corporate support functions. Cripple the Finance function and your company dies on its arse *very* quickly. Actually, Red Letter Days was also killed because not paying suppliers got into the national media over the weekend. Company was dead wi
Re:IMHO (Score:2)
Re:IMHO (Score:2)
That said, it would cause some serious anger and frustration if I rebooted the servers at 3pm. Maybe they'd decide to hire a real IT guy and let me focus on development.
Re:IMHO (Score:2)
The responsibility for maintaining the "mail server" rests with the CIO who normally sits on the board of directors.
OTOH: The AC is usually the landlord's concern.
Re:IMHO (Score:2)
We have an automated system across 6 buildings which communicates to a server all of the relevant information on how well the A/C units are functioning.
If that server goes down, suddenly the "person who makes sure the air conditioner is working correctly" can't do his job properly, and we would need to hire 2 more people to make up for the additional
Re:IMHO (Score:2)
Without Phones (voip/pbx), email (presales/sales), digital documents (fileservers), and the network to run these things for users all of a sudden business grinds to a halt.
Unless you're running POTS/Typewriters/filecabinets instead of modern solutions you're going to have time re-ad
Re:IMHO (Score:2)
I spent 15mins writing a quick perl script - I forget what for, now - a few years ago, to facilitate some big-bucks deal. Transpires that deal was worth about $4million between the two companies. Did anyone remember my work? Did I see any of it? Like heck.
Now I spend my time doing a bit of development and sysadmin work. I find the latter more fun - currently converting a bunch of boxes to Debian for ease of ongoing updates - and yes, I can safely say that I'd like to see the marketing muppets try
Re:IMHO (Score:2)
At a Good Job, importance is not reflected through hiring procedure or salary. At a Good Job, everyone recognizes that it is the entire chain of employees working together that makes the operation run smoothly, without blowing up. At a Good Job, your boss will find a way to make you feel appreciated even if you aren't the "star quarterback".
At a Good Job, you may not be paid $2 million an hour, but you're also less likely to come to work one morning and find security guards and plastic bags
Re:IMHO (Score:2)
But they would sure go out of business quickly if they lost it now.
Science education is important. (Score:2)
I dunno... It's impossible to tell without CONTROL GROUPS, which is why research based upon the principles of the scientific method has them.
Re:Science education is important. (Score:2)
The British love complaining (Score:2)
Just keep paying well and don't burn them out (Score:2)
Re:Just keep paying well and don't burn them out (Score:2)
I've seen so many managers give 'specifications of a system', with a straight face, as a series of wireframe drawings of the user interface, with no mention of data inputs, outputs, movement, translation or any other thing it's required to do.
As for fantasies about being the IT hero.. Each time you recover someone's data, roll back a mistake they made, or otherwise sort out a problem, you change a little bit of the world each time.
Australian response (Score:2, Insightful)
Re:Australian response (Score:2)
Not sure if your definition of 'poms' includes all of UK or just England...
love? or despise..? (Score:3, Interesting)
I can confirm that my company clearly does not love IT workers.
Take a look at the obvious measure any company uses: Cost.
IT is a cost centre. We're seen as an expense. The business resents the expense.
Ignore the way that the technology we recommend and implement now generates a significant percentage of our sales (over the web), how better telephone systems (including VRU) mean greatly reduced call centre cost, how the business would collapse if we switched off any of the 140+ systems essential to our daily operations.
We're kept out of decision making. Our director isn't directly on the board, he reports to another board member - who also owns finance and HR.
We're treated like second-class citizens. Shiny new building goes up; IT get shoved into the old building.
The business want shiny new features - on the websites (we have dozens), in the call centres, in our retail estate. So they go out and buy expensive systems, make deals for software, agree hosting - and then blame IT when things don't work together, when we have massive duplication of functionality and capability, when vendor lock-in causes excessive cost. So much for using the experience and expertise of the IT professionals that would have stopped them making those mistakes.
On top of all that, they decided to outsource all our development to India. Current status of outsourcing:
Development costs : Higher
Delivery timescales : Longer
Quality of deliverables : Lower
Customer (i.e. internal customers) satisfaction : Lower
The last thing that hurts is that the internal politics here are the worse I've ever seen. Different departments actively try to make the others look bad, and IT systems often become the battleground. Result? Continual derision of the IT systems we put in place to their specs.
Yet despite this, my team is very capable, very loyal, we are well paid compared to other people in the company (but don't quite reach average levels for the IT industry) and we continually push, recommend, innovate and strive to improve the business, the IT systems and processes supporting it, all while keeping costs down.
If it wasn't for the great CV fodder I'm picking up I'd personally have walked out a long time ago. This company doesn't love its IT people, and its IT people definitely don't love it.
How do you know if you are loved? (Score:2, Insightful)
Re:How do you know if you are loved? (Score:2)
We need statistics on other areas (Score:2)
Then again, what story with
Being appreciated... (Score:2)
After being laid off in 2001 (shortly after 9/11), I spent the next three years looking for a position that could use my skills, where I'd learn new skills, and where they'd appreciate my effort. After trying jobs where I was
You are not a rare and precious snowflake (Score:4, Insightful)
Standard IT Economics/Sociology (Score:2)
I think this is reflective of some general truths about IT workers. We are primarily computer people. Generally the political side is at best a secondary skill and more often a deficient skill. As such, we are less adept than those in other sectors at negotiating and getting the maximum compensation that is warranted by the amount of wealth we generate for our companies. The profit maximizing solution fro
Re:Stop whinging (Score:2)
The company I work for has if fact had to ship some its development work to India, not for the usual cost reasons but simply because it can't fill the positions it advertises despite offering generous packages.
Re:Stop whinging (Score:2)
Also, can an entry-level member of staff afford a house in your area? Is there a good range of local entertainments; restaurants, bars, fitness centres.
Is it a small town dominated by neds, scallies, chavs?
Re:Stop whinging (Score:2)
Seriously, though. Most of the IT people around that aren't in senior positions these days probably entered the field in the late 90's when it seemed like every kid who knew how to write batch files ended up being an idle millionaire at the age of 25.
IT is no longer seen as a golden egg that can turn any business around, it's just seen as another essential and noncentral function like janitors and electricians, with the requisite amount of respect
Rights, or Markets? (Score:2)
As an entry level community college instructor in a rural area I could afford to buy a comfortable house.
As an entry level actuary in a New York City suburb, I make 65% more, but can't afford to buy a condo, let alone an actual house (and my commute takes 6 - 7 times as long).
I'll probably find a place (new job) where I can affo
Re:Stop whinging (Score:2)
Because savings rates offered by banks are meagre and stocks are not doing as well as they used to be, this only leaves property to invest in. So there is a national obsession with trying to get onto the property ladder as
Re:Stop whinging (Score:2)
"Developer required. 25 years JDK 2.0, 10 years VS.NET 2005 experience essential"
I know a *lot* of unemployed developers. I also see a lot of job adverts not far off the above.
Companies are just not prepared to let a programmer learn something.. and yes I have seen VS.NET 2005 as a requirement for a job - how long would it take for someone used to VS.NET 2003 to pick it up? 30 seconds max... but they won't get the interview.
(I was once rejected for a job as I only had 2 years Java, and the c
Re:Stop whinging (Score:2)
"senior programmer" types? I finally gave up in disgust and moved to the US, but I'm curious if it got any better since 1998
The UK just does NOT value techies like the US does, in my experience.
Re:Stop whinging (Score:2)
That equates to about $60,000 I think.
The 'junior' (actually a damned good java programmer who was completely crapped on) was earning £20,000 (about $34,000).
It's still pretty poor...
OTOH I'm earning even less than that now (about £15,000 at the moment) and damned happy working f
Re:18yr Old (Score:2)
Re:feel? (Score:2)
It doesn't always have to be about money. Other things that can make a person feel valued are:
- returning time or some other kind of perk for extra hours worked o a project.
- Saying 'thank you' and actually communicating. How many times have I been told "we think you're a key asset", and then find that I am the last to know about important decisions
Re:My boss values me (Score:2)
Yes you do.
There's an implied contract - and just because it's not written down doesn't mean the employer can suddenly decide to stop paying you.
If you've been doing the same thing for 3 years that is the terms of your contract.
Re:Griping, obviously (Score:2)
Re:What? (Score:2)
Tens of thousands of people die every day....
War, Famine, Flood, Pestilence (plus Ronnie Soak).
We generally see it as background noise and ignore it.
We only care about it when it affects us in some way.
1 person killed can be national news for weeks... do we really care about them? Probably not.. we care about our sense of safety (especially if it was a murder). To a certain extent we care about what the newspapers and TV tell us to care about too.
Re:Understandable... (Score:2)
"Hanging on in quiet desperation is the English way" -- Pink Floyd.