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Wireless Networking IT Hardware

German Railways To Get WLAN RailNet 202

Posted by Zonk from the wlan-spiderwebs dept.
wertarbyte writes "According to the German IT news site Heise, german Telekom and the german railway corporation Deutsche Bahn have formed an alliance to equip the ICE high speed trains with WLAN access (Babelfish translation), as well as the stations those trains arrive at. This offer is aimed at business travellers, and will first be introduced on routes frequented by those ("travel time is usable time")."
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German Railways To Get WLAN RailNet More

German Railways To Get WLAN RailNet

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  • Yes, but... (Score:4, Interesting)

    by Anonymous Coward on Saturday March 05, 2005 @11:26PM (#11856739)
    ...how much will it cost?

  • Does that mean it's.... (Score:4, Funny)

    by Anonymous Coward on Saturday March 05, 2005 @11:29PM (#11856763)
    War-railing?

  • Nice (Score:5, Insightful)

    by Klar ( 522420 ) <curchin@NoSPam.gmail.com> on Saturday March 05, 2005 @11:30PM (#11856766) Homepage Journal
    If only they had this in Canada. I used to take the train several times a month for 5 hour trips, and interent would have been real nice for working on assignments using my laptop. Instead, I had to work offline, then quickly connect for about 30seconds to update stuff when we would pull into a station. This could be very handy if more places start implementing it.

    • Re:Nice (Score:5, Informative)

      by The Hobo ( 783784 ) on Sunday March 06, 2005 @12:02AM (#11856930)
      It is available [viarail.ca], at least in the Toronto-Montreal corridor. Only on VIA1 (first class) though.

    • Corporate travel by plane is overrated (unless you are going by private plane - even then the trip is seen as being a perk for those that are "higher level" in the company.)

      Trains are the way to go, in my opinion, since it gives the traveller the time to reflect on what is to be done after arrival. All the better if you can communicate en route to keep up to date with possibly changing issues. Air travel is just too hectic and fraught with possible delays.

  • This is good (Score:5, Insightful)

    by Husgaard ( 858362 ) on Saturday March 05, 2005 @11:33PM (#11856782)
    I live in Denmark, just north of Germany, and would really like to see this in danish trains.

    From time to time I travel on train for a few hours. On business class I can get an electric outlet for my laptop so it doesn't run out of power while I work. It is nice that I can get some work done in the train.

    But it is really annoying to be disconnected from the net while I travel by train.

    I wouldn't mind paying a bit extra for the ticket if I could have access to the net. (Well, I don't pay the ticket myself. But my company wouldn't mind paying either.)

  • Network Connectivity (Score:5, Interesting)

    by poopdeville ( 841677 ) on Saturday March 05, 2005 @11:34PM (#11856786)
    This is interesting. Putting a bunch of wireless routers on a train is simple enough, but this will only get you a closed, local area network. I wonder how Deutsche Bahn plans to get packets to and from trains moving at high speed, especially considering the promised bandwidth. I can imagine several ways, but none seem cost effective.
    • From TFA: "In order to lead the data from and to the driving course to, the British set on a Wimax net along the distance, which is to?rtragen up to 32 MBit/s"

      So they have a big Wimax router on the train which connects to several 802.11G routers throughout the train which give you your wireless.

      Internet -> Wimax -> 802.11G -> Your Laptop
      • Duh. I even read that sentence. Only, it didn't parse, so all I got out of it was 32 MBit/s.
      • Wimax gear soon to be available is fixed wireless.
        As of the fall, Mobility was still being worked on. Certainly no hardware available. So I still wonder how they are going to do this. Maybe just don't intend to deploy all that soon.

        • As of the fall, Mobility was still being worked on. Certainly no hardware available. So I still wonder how they are going to do this. Maybe just don't intend to deploy all that soon.

          Built in mobility support would only be needed if peoples laptops were connecting directly to the fixed routers. I imagine what they will do is have 802.11G to WiMax routers on the train and use MobileIP or NEMO or custom software to allow those routers to switch between fixed routers. The fixed routers and the train it

          • As an added benifit to the railroad, they could transmit GPS data and telemetry over the connection as well as send signals from dispatch telling the train to modify its speed so it doesn't have to stop at signals.
            On the German high-speed trains the signalling is fairly high-tech. It has to be, you don't see redlights at 300 kph!
        • Hmm, it seems that it is possible, because also in the UK T-Mobile has announced to offer WLAN via WiMax in some trains, starting next month. At least according to the Register [theregister.co.uk] and others.
    • Maybe they'll print out punch cards and hang them on posts when they pass by like what was done on old trains. It would probably get better throughput than RFC 1149 [rfc-editor.org]

    • Re:Network Connectivity (Score:3, Informative)

      by jd ( 1658 )
      I imagine the train will have a very large router and use Mobile IP and NAT.

      It would be cooler for them to use NEMO [ietf.org] (Network Mobility) which defines a system where nodes within the network are fixed with respect to a given router, and where it is the routers that are mobile.

      (In a technical and physical sense, this is exactly what they have.)

      In terms of coverage, the ideal would be for a consortium of rail providers to get together and construct a uniform system across all countries in Europe. This lik

    • The Amtrak capitol coridor [amtrakcapitols.com], which runs from sacramento to oakland and san jose, has been testing out a wifi system provided by Point Shot Wireless. [pointshotwireless.com] The are a fiar number of crazy people who live in the central valey and ride either amtrak or ACE [acerail.com] trains into silicon valley, beacuse even after the bust, housing is still insane.

      If I could surf the net and get work done, I certianly wouldn't mind 4 hours on a train everyday. My guess is that more trains don't have the technology already beacuse its pretty

      • I would love wireless on the Pacific Surfliner between San Diego and Ventura. I usually drive, as it is about an hour faster and the same cost, but if I could get wireless on the Amtrak, I'd be all over it.

    • In the UK one of the operators, GNER, who serve the East Cost have been rolling this out over the past year, there is a link from the GNER Wi-Fi page [gner.co.uk] Which explains who it works for them. A combination of satalite and mobile phone for when in tunnels


      • In the UK I've been using Orange 3G to provide network connectivity. Its still a bit patchy, but its good enough for most tasks and its superb as you get towards London or other major cities.

    • First of all: Most of the german main rail routes are in some ways "wireless" since about at least 15 years. It's called "Zugfunk" (train radio) and at first involved mainly telephone services. If you ever travelled there you might have noticed a wire lying between the rails. That's the stationary part of the system, the sender/receiver antenna for the fixed stations.

      I guess the Telekom connection will use an improved system based on this infrastructure, with higher bandwith and maybe lower latency. Becaus

  • I think... (Score:5, Interesting)

    by game kid ( 805301 ) on Saturday March 05, 2005 @11:35PM (#11856792) Homepage
    ...Google does a better translation [google.com]; at least it has no odd question marks.

    Most interesting: "In order to lead the data from and to the driving course to, the British set on a Wimax net along the distance, which is to transfer up to 32 MBit/s" If that means download rates will be up to that much, I wouldn't mind something that fast on my DSL (mine barely reaches 3MBit/s). Especially in the middle of a railroad (unless that 32 MBit/s is shared by every commuter on the train).

    FWIW, here's the original [heise.de] I believe, for those that understand such a language.
    • The original translation was so horrible that I could almost not understand it although I fluently read both english and german. The translation you provided was readable, and the original german article was even better.

      If /. is going to link to auto-translated articles, I would prefer that the Google translator is used. Both because it translates fine and because it contains a link to the original text for those who understand the original language.

    • Human translation (Score:2, Informative)

      by nfarrell ( 127850 )
      IANAGerman but I can beat google on this one. Doing this quickly but I'm happy the content is right:

      "accordinng to british media sources the british firm 't-mobile uk' plans to test this between london and brighton on the Southern Express in march and april.
      To allow data in and out of the trains they're setting up a wimax network along that stretch of track that should provide up to 32mbps."

    • I'm sure it's shared... (Score:3, Informative)

      by rsborg ( 111459 )
      WiMAX has a theoretical bandwidth [totaltele.com] (warning: pdf, see pg 5) of about 4.5Mbps per 3.5Mhz channel (outdoors, range 15km)... so it will probably mean they utilize approximately 7 channels (= 31.5Mbps). Having 32Mbps per user would be an insane amount of bandwidth and channel usage. Of course it all depends on the details which are not provided...

  • Lucky (Score:3, Insightful)

    by ananegg ( 772033 ) on Saturday March 05, 2005 @11:36PM (#11856798)
    Those Europeans get all the cool Train stuff........

  • This will be nice (Score:5, Interesting)

    by dyfet ( 154716 ) on Saturday March 05, 2005 @11:38PM (#11856809) Homepage
    I recently took one of those high speed trains, from Amsterdam to Frankfurt. It was very pleasant. There is also plenty of room to set and use a laptop, even one of those "big American SUV" laptops like I like to use, as each coach has table space in front of the seats. This is done with the rows of seats arranged opposite each other facing the table, in a very roomy arrangement.

    This indeed was far more civilized than any train I had been in the U.S., and also was much nicer than the horror of ever more cramped planes. All it was missing was wifi. If they change that, it will indeed be very cool.

    • I recently took one of those high speed trains, from Amsterdam to Frankfurt. It was very pleasant.

      Of course it was pleasant. After being in Amsterdam for a while, doing anything is pleasant. You may also be hungry.
      • Of course it was pleasant. After being in Amsterdam for a while, doing anything is pleasant. You may also be hungry.

        Unfortunately I did not get to visit Essen this trip, which I gather means "eating". Actually, it may also surprise some to learn that there are some coffee houses in Amsterdam that only do serve coffee.

    • Welcome to Europe, we have nice trains. Just don't expect them to turn up on time.. :D

      I never understood how American trains were so open and based on standing when all of ours are the opposit..
      • I have travelled on IC trains in Europe before. Most (non-high speed IC trains in Europe) are not all that different from the monster diesel powered "commuter trains" you find in the U.S. that run between cities, though the European ones have luggage racks, more often are electric, and are generally quieter and much newer. "Subway trains" in the U.S., on the other hand, are often for designed for standing and arranged in the horrible way you mention.

  • Sounds good, hope it works (Score:3, Informative)

    by EtherAlchemist ( 789180 ) on Saturday March 05, 2005 @11:38PM (#11856810)

    The same kind of thing was recently put into place on certain routes of the Washington State Ferries, one of which I use daily.

    It's a really good idea, but I wonder if rail will have the same limitations I experience with our own system (boats).

    Mobilisa's "Wireless Over Water" is cool- when we're in the slip or not too far from it. The trip I take is 35 minutes each way, the first 5-7 minutes and the last 5-7 minutes are awesome, but the whole time in between (from either Seattle or Bainbridge Island) is riddled with drop outs and disconnects.

    Well, it's a boat in the middle of the water, you might say. Yes, but not really any different from a train that has to move between access points along its own route. If they put enough of them in, great, but on a bullet train how bad would it suck to have a drop out every few minutes while it moves from one hotspot to the next?

    Yes of course the contractor implementing it will say that won't happen, but they said that about our in-commute Wi-Fi, too.

  • Contractors... (Score:5, Insightful)

    by scaltagi_the_pirate ( 777620 ) on Saturday March 05, 2005 @11:38PM (#11856812) Homepage
    And if you work as a contractor..."travel time is billable time!"

  • Welcome news (Score:3)

    by chrispl ( 189217 ) on Saturday March 05, 2005 @11:38PM (#11856817) Homepage
    I believe the ICE already offered this service in first class. At least there were some advertising brochures laying around that mentioned somthing about this. Tip: If you reserve a seat with a table there is a standard wall outlet under it that delivers 220v so you can be gaming or watching movies on your laptop the whole trip without worrying about batteries. This has become my preferred way of traveling inside Europe. The addition of wifi makes the the PERFECT form of travel!

    • If you reserve a seat with a table there is a standard wall outlet under it that delivers 220v so you can be gaming or watching movies on your laptop the whole trip without worrying about batteries.

      The new ICE 3 trains do have 220V power sockets on every seat. You just haveto find out which train serves your route. ICE1 trains do not have power sockets, except in coach 7, where a ICE2 coach can be integrated. ICE2 trains do have a power sockets under the 4-person-tables.

      Check this site [grahnert.de] (ICE-Züge

      • IIRC those ICE1 trains have sockets at the end of each coach, but unfortunately they aren't powered during normal operation. I guess they use them for cleaning appliances during maintenance.

        It really is a shame that they use those trains for some of the longest routes they have (Berlin - Basel comes to mind). Maybe they prefer the first generation on long routes because it's more reliable than its successors, but what do I know...

  • Atlanta rails get TV (Score:2, Interesting)

    by Anonymous Coward
    I sent this to slashdot like a week ago but I guess they didn't find it appropriate.

    http://www.cnn.com/2005/TRAVEL/03/03/subway.tvs.ap / [cnn.com]

  • Canada Has This (Score:4, Informative)

    by Anonymous Coward on Saturday March 05, 2005 @11:45PM (#11856848)
    VIA Rail already offers this serveice in Canada:
    http://www.viarail.com/wirelessinternet/e n_index.h tml
    Wi-Fi on the train, Internet heandled by 2 way to a Bell satellite

  • Will it work? (Score:5, Funny)

    by Anonymous Coward on Saturday March 05, 2005 @11:46PM (#11856857)
    In my physics classes we learned that German trains usually operate at relativistic speeds (with effects that baffled many commuters until they were finally explained by Einstein).

    Will consumer-grade WLAN equipment be able to deal with issues such as Doppler shifted frequencies and dilated packet times?

  • I might not be old enough to understand this but.. (Score:4, Interesting)

    by MSDos-486 ( 779223 ) on Saturday March 05, 2005 @11:49PM (#11856870)
    This might possibly play out the same way the widespread use of cell phones did. If you have a cell phone you are expected to be reachable and therefore maybe called upon more often "just incase". Once everyone gets a cell phone everyone is called upon more often. Now if the company knows you have Internet access on the train and notice an increase in your productivity. Do you think they may expect more of you?
    • Do you think they may expect more of you?

      The solution to this is remarkably simple -- people need to stop being such damned pushovers. I don't understand why more people feel the need to complain about how management expects more out of them now that they're more easily reachable; all they have to do is show a little backbone and stand up for their free time once in a while.

      When people negotiate pay, they need to take availability into account. Want to be able to call me on Saturdays? That'll cost you a
    • well if you're actually working on the train then you should be able to book those hours towards your working time... this then leads to the next step of getting them to recognise that you can work from home just as well...

  • British railways already have this (Score:5, Informative)

    by Anonymous Coward on Saturday March 05, 2005 @11:50PM (#11856873)
    It is great. Access is free in the 1st class seats and the speed is good. I was travelling at 100mph on my way to London while IM chatting with friends in Canada.
  • How does the Internet link on the train works? Specially if it's moving at such great speeds and over (usually) large geographical areas, with all kind of topographical changes (think tunnels, bridges, forest areas, etc.).

    What kind of internet connection must the train count with in order to keep the IP address (and not to drop the current connections)? What speed does that kind of link can get? What are the technical requirements for such a thing to work?

    Just some thoughts out of my ignorance.

    Regards,
    • It goes over the rails, of course!

      If only they were able to twist the rails around each other, they'd be able to get even better throughput.

      disclaimer: don't take me seriously
    • How does the Internet link on the train works?

      One way would be to use a satellite telephone circuit and get a dialup internet connection through it

      A better way would be to get a dedicated tcp/ip connection through a satellite. You get more bandwidth that way as well

      For operational reasons it would be a good idea to have tcp/ip out to the train anyway. Makes it easier to integrate your ground based systems with those on the vehicle.

      Such a system could simplify everything from monitoring vehicle engineeri

      • They already have phone repeaters in those trains, they already have voice and data communications for running those trains, all goes through the rails and overhead power lines. I would be very surprised if they could not use the same for this internet access idea.

  • They could (Score:3, Interesting)

    by MSDos-486 ( 779223 ) on Sunday March 06, 2005 @12:14AM (#11856979)
    transmit the WAN signal the same way they do the power. Either thought the rails or a over head wire. Then connect the wire to WiFi routers within the train.

  • wardial? (Score:3, Funny)

    by nameless_man ( 750033 ) on Sunday March 06, 2005 @12:45AM (#11857102)
    so - can you wardial for 15 seconds at a time if you live near the tracks?

  • The Germans get WiFi on their trains... (Score:5, Insightful)

    by gwydion04 ( 756582 ) on Sunday March 06, 2005 @12:56AM (#11857144) Journal
    ... wherease we get no trains. Bush is planning to cut all federal funds for Amtrak [niu.edu], which will pretty much kill it.

    I want my uber-trains with wifi, darnit!
    • If they can only survive through government funding, Amtrak obviously isn't being used enough to merit its existence. Why shouldn't their funds be cut. Right now, a train ticket does not cost significantly less than a plane ticket. Traveling from one side of the US to the other takes a matter of hours by plane, but days by train (I've done it both ways).

      Now, maybe this would be different if roads weren't almost entirely government funded, since more people would use trains as an alternative to driving.
      • If they can only survive through government funding, Amtrak obviously isn't being used enough to merit its existence.

        Great! Let's apply that logic to planes and cars.

        Why shouldn't their funds be cut. Right now, a train ticket does not cost significantly less than a plane ticket.

        That's because the infrastructure and operating expenses necessary for flying are heavily subsidized by the government (i.e., your and my tax dollars)

        Traveling from one side of the US to the other takes a matter of hours by
        • Here's my issue however: Amtrak is failing because its not only slower, but it costs more.

          I priced a round-trip Amtrak ticket from Cincinnati to Dallas at $240. The trip was to take over 24 hours, routing me through Chicago, then going to Dallas.

          I bought a round trip ticket on a major airline for $180, non-stop. The trip took a little over 2 hours.

          I wouldn't mind riding a train if it made economic sense, but it doesn't.

          As far as commuting, I live in Dayton Ohio and work in Cincinnati. I have a 45mi comm
          • Europeans don't as a rule take trains for a 1000-mile trip either. Where they *do* take trains is for trips of up to about 300 miles, where high-speed rail is faster and more convenient (no BS security screening, for instance). Nobody's expecting you to go coast-to-coast by rail.

            What I can't understand is the fact you don't have high-speed rail in the densely populated northeast (and, no, the Acela doesn't count) which could easily support it - not to mention the shitty public transport in most of your l

          • Re:let's apply that uniformly (Score:2, Insightful)

            by Anonymous Coward
            Here's my issue however: Amtrak is failing because its not only slower, but it costs more.

            I'm guessing the recent multi billion dollar grant given to the airlines has something to do with that low price. Now, if the airlines had to actually fully pay for things like airports, I'm guessing your fare would be about $1800.
          • As I was saying: the airlines are heavily subsidized, far more so than Amtrak. That's why they are cheaper, and that's why people choose them. In the US, I fly even short routes as well--what choice do I have?

            Cincinnati to Dallas is pushing it for current train systems (that's about 1000 miles?)--that's going to take a lot longer on the train than on the plane (although it may still be more pleasant).

            A sensible infrastructure would use planes for distances starting at around 500 miles and use trains int
        • The "infrastructure" for flying consists of airports, which are highly government regulated, so it's probably only fair that they should be subsidized.

          "the US railroad infrastructure is thoroughly obsolete--it doesn't haev to be that slow"

          The US railroad infrastructure is not obsolete, you just don't know the difference between Light rail (used for transporting passengers) and Heavy Rail (used for transporting cargo). With heavy rail, you want to move as much as possible, as cheaply as possible. Since r
      • If you applied that logic to roads then you'd have to pay a lot more for the priviledge of driving around, because the amount of tax you currently pay in the US on car fuel ("gas" if you must insist on calling any liquid that, even if it is a shortened form of "gasoline") is nowhere near the level that's necessary it to pay for the expenditure necessary to maintain let alone improve the road network.

        If you applied that logic to air travel then every major US airline would have gone bust a long time ago. Or

  • Train stations as well (Score:3, Insightful)

    by Eternally optimistic ( 822953 ) on Sunday March 06, 2005 @01:03AM (#11857165)
    Accoding to the german version, a speaker (a guy talking, not an audio device) says that "in the future" train stations will be covered, at least those where the ICE trains stop (as opposed to just drive through). Currently only their "DB Lounges" are served by WLAN.

  • Old news in Sweden (Score:2, Informative)

    by mrpeachum ( 865278 )
    This has existed on the Linx train between Copenhagen and Gothenburg since July 2003. On that train, a rotating sattelite reciever/transmitter was placed on top of one of the cars of the train.

    Linx has recently gone out of business and has been bought out by SJ (Swedish railways). SJ has also announced [press.sj.se] (Swedish article) that 85 of its trains will also be equipped with WLAN.

  • Link to original article, not translation (Score:5, Insightful)

    by Anonymous Coward on Sunday March 06, 2005 @01:40AM (#11857299)
    Some of us are not constrained to speaking only English. Please link to the original language of an article and if someone wants to translate it, they can post a babelfish or other link in the comments.
  • I take the train at my own expense on some business trips so I can relax and get away. Pagers, cell phones, and other devices do not work along railways in the South in most cases, so you have some "relax" time until the phone starts ringing in a major city. This may actually cut their business because some of their customers will just take the plane if they are going to have to communicate with people again!
  • ok, i'm at a loss on this one, help me out folks. We learned yesterday that we are supposed to consider it evil if a municipality wants to deploy wifi over an entire village/town/city. Is deploying it over a railroad system supposed to be good, or evil?
    • Let me help you out. This is not a municipal system. People riding the train will pay for internet access provided by an (evil) Corporation. So, this is evil because it is NOT provided at the taxpayers expense.

      You're welcome.
      • Ok, now I get it.

        Observation 1) Wifi=evil if provided at taxpayer expense (friday).
        Observation 2) Wifi=evil if provided by corp, ie not taxpayer expense (saturday).

        Conclusion: wifi=evil.

        Ahh well, it'll be monday soon. I'm sure wifi != evil on monday.

  • India already has a trial! (Score:3, Interesting)

    by Anonymous Coward on Sunday March 06, 2005 @03:37AM (#11857569)
    I was at home in India during Nov-Dec and was surprised to see the spread of broadband there. RailTel (http://www.railtelindia.com/ [railtelindia.com]) has already laid an extensive optic-fiber network to connect the railway stations in India - keep in mind India has the biggest rail network in the world, albeit not the widest in territorial span.
    RailTel has a pilot experiment running on a high-speed train in western India where they are providing wireless access on the train. There are plans to extend that to the rest of the network. Of course, only some chosen, elite trains will get it, but they will get it nonetheless.
    For the price-conscious, I should let you know that the internet cafes at some railway stations in India provide internet access at less than $0.50 per hr and international calling for $0.10 per min through VOIP.
  • Can you say, "420"?

  • The Swedish X2000 and X40... (Score:3, Informative)

    by willgott ( 765108 ) on Sunday March 06, 2005 @06:12AM (#11857843) Homepage
    ...is WLAN-enabled and it has been for quite some time I think. The link to the outside world seems to be managed with the help of 3G and satellites. More info here [icomera.se]
  • Wireless Internet access has been available on VIA Rail in Canada [viarail.ca] since the end of 2003.
  • Ha. To me travel time = nap time.
  • Instead of Solitaire! Whoohoo!

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