Young Women Encouraged to Go For IT 708
An anonymous reader writes "Wednesday Microsoft Canada's vice president of developer and platform evangelism encouraged 9th grade girls to head for an IT career with a presentation that debunked key myths. Apparently IT isn't geeky or socially isolating. From the article: "Some issues (the girls) brought up included fears that their friends will think (working in IT) is a geeky thing to do, and that IT work is not very social...They were concerned that there were limitations for women in this area of technology, and they felt there is a stigma associated with IT in terms of it not being a very exciting place to work."
What is wrong with women? (Score:5, Insightful)
Re:What is wrong with women? (Score:5, Funny)
Which brings me back to your topic, What is wrong with women?
Re:What is wrong with women? (Score:4, Funny)
30 year old crack whore
Excuse me, that's "mature recreational products arbitrageur" to you, buddy.
Re:What is wrong with women? (Score:3, Insightful)
Re:What is wrong with women? (Score:5, Insightful)
Speaking as a once 9th grade girl who is now quite grown up, girls in the public school system do care very much about what others think, even if they say they don't. On the other hand, being considered "geeky", say by ones husband and his friends, who think it's "cool", is quite another.
Some women may still care what others think of their career, just like some men. But some girls grow up to find that hanging out with geeks is pretty cool.
Aside from that if, regardless of gender, a person is not interested in a feild of study than trying to convice them to go into that field by dispelling myths (are they myths?) about the social aspect seems kind of silly.
Re:What is wrong with women? (Score:5, Insightful)
Speaking as a once 9th grade girl who is now quite grown up, girls in the public school system do care very much about what others think, even if they say they don't.
Yeah, because 9th grade boys just love being unpopular, pushed around and called geeks.
The stigma surrounding IT is not gender-specific. Boys put up with it, why should we mollycoddle girls? I'm all for getting rid of the stigma, but focusing on doing it for girls only is blatantly sexist and should not be condoned.
Re:What is wrong with women? (Score:3, Insightful)
So naive! Sexism is only evil when Republicans do it, not when women and Democrats do it.
(Yes, I know, the seminar was in Canada. Substitute appropriate labels where necessary.)
Re:What is wrong with women? (Score:5, Insightful)
And IT *IS* a geeky thing to do. For crying out loud, the details of knowledge needed to form a firm understanding or even appreciation for how things work escapes what I see as the greater majority of people -- male or female irrelevant. And if a woman is actually GOOD at it, then she is certainly geeky without a doubt.
Re:What is wrong with women? (Score:3, Insightful)
Re:What is wrong with women? (Score:5, Interesting)
In my experience, girls/women just don't see IT and CS as "fun". Part of the focus needs to be on figuring out what young people find interesting about computers and guide them in that direction. Systems administration? Probably not. Maintaining their own Linux box so they can use free software like inkscape and the Gimp, or have their own website they have total control over? Now you're talkin' our language.
I remember 9th grade - that 8086 my parents set up so mom could dial into the mainframe and work from home. Icky black screen with white text. I ran through all the text-based "games" and got bored of it. Fortran in college didn't do much to help matters. Computers didn't get fun until much later when I figured out I could do pretty stuff.
A young woman I know decided to take a Basic class in high school, thinking it was an easy A for some credit she needed. It wasn't easy. And, mostly, it wasn't fun. We spent a lot of time helping her figure out her assignments without actually doing them for her. One night, she was polishing up an assignment early, so I did a quick hunt and gave her some hints on how to tweak her interface with color and ascii art (animated even). All of a sudden, the whole thing was kinda fun. The next day in class, all the geeks were around her monitor, oohing and ahhing. Not only did she have fun decorating her program with faerie dust and roses (or something like that), but the social aspect of the situation improved drastically - she had been an outsider in the class. The class of 20 or so kids were all guys, except her, and part of the math-geek clique surrounding the instructor. The instructor's reaction was disappointing - he didn't understand why she'd decorated her program, and wasn't impressed... bad move dude.
Part of the key to getting kids interested is exposure on several levels - to folks they can identify with, to activities that tweak their interests and are applicable to other aspects of their lives, and actually using and maintaining their own computers. Kids who could become "geeks" often don't because they're intimidated, bored, perceive it's a clique they can't fit into, or simply never given a chance.
Instead of being a "free thinker"... (Score:5, Insightful)
That would include, for example, not drawing inferences about "women in the US and Canada" based upon the reported meanderings of 14 year olds.
Re:What is wrong with women? (Score:3, Insightful)
Re:What is wrong with women? (Score:3, Funny)
Re:What is wrong with women? (Score:3, Insightful)
As for the "myths"... they are not myths. I do spend a lot of a lot of time at a computer terminal! Unfortunately for me I was already doing that in Highschool because that's what I like to do. Now I do work that is very interesting and exciting... to me. But it's not what people in general would think of as an exciting place.
I don't see why do we keep trying t
Re:What is wrong with women? (Score:4, Insightful)
These are 9th grade girls. These problems will be more real with women than with men because women are more social, but in particularly in this age demographic is prey to it because they're just getting started. Smart girls will divorce themselves from the stupid social herds which are popular with most women.
IT is a very non-social job. You don't get to routinely gab with your "friends" (ie, coworkers) about this or that, because you invariably need to be concentrating on a monitor if, indeed, you're, well - working.
Task-oriented things don't appeal to women for the most part. IT is very task-oriented.
What kind of woman would want to work in a male-centric field? Much less a self-confident, opinionated, and intelligent female? Most males are pigs, and by the time a girl is 14 (if she's not physically hideous) she's already learned what men are interested in, by and large: getting their poles slicked, one way or the other.
It takes a special breed of woman to be interested in IT or engineering. I imagine the male equivilant of such a breed would be a man that would be interest in interior design.
But, this really begs the question: why would MS be so interested in women joining the IT sector (and be willing to lie to these young girls on top of that)? I suspect it's for three reasons:
1) women are, in general, better at multi-tasking. This would make them ideal for tasks such as project management.
2) Morale. Women in the office would keep some men more interested in coming to work when they would normally not be so inclined. I imagine that some men grow desperate about getting laid before they die, and such a female in the office would help further their disillusional fantasy.
3) Women communicate "better". If you're a female trying to communicate with another of your kind, at least (IMO). I think this is beneficial somehow, but how it would help in a male-centric work environment is beyond me. Technical people (non-idiots, at least) seem to be fairly conceise with their language and don't have much of a grunt-grunt problem.
Another reason they might have a hard time getting women into IT is because women are, in general, not encouraged to tinker when they're younger. In essence, this leads to their inability to think critically and compartmentalize things, which isn't terribly conductive for scientific work in general. Not to say that women can't do it, they're just not trained to think. (On the flip side, many men tend to have the difficulty of seeing the whole picture as they're focused on a smaller part.)
Re:What is wrong with women? (Score:4, Interesting)
Smart girls will do no such thing, socially inept girls will do that. The herd or pack instinct which seems to kick in at puberty is useful if you understand it.
"Most males are pigs".
Eh, no they are male humans, the desire to have sex as often as possible and with as many partners as possible is a bog standard part of the human male design. If you don't like the way male and/or female sexuality is expressed by young men or women then talk to the parents.
"It takes a special breed of woman to be interested in IT or engineering. I imagine the male equivilant of such a breed would be a man that would be interest in interior design."
I take it that you mean gay?
"women are, in general, better at multi-tasking."
And generally poorer at focusing on the task at hand.
"Women communicate "better"."
Well they certainly communicate *more*. But if more were better then supersizing would be a good thing, wouldn't it.
Anyway MS are going about it the wrong way. If you want to get women into IT, tell them that the job will naturally put them in regular contact with lots of high status males (and no, I'm not talking about other IT staff, they don't count as high status).
I am a girl in IT (Score:3, Interesting)
Re:What is wrong with women? (Score:5, Insightful)
Shit. Most men in IT don't have the appropriate analytical abilities to excel in IT.
Re:What is wrong with women? (Score:5, Funny)
I kid you not...
Here's the kicker - He's got a CS degree. I almost threatened to take it away from him.
Re:What is wrong with women? (Score:4, Interesting)
Re:What is wrong with women? (Score:3, Funny)
He was thinking that he was going to have to do a whole seperate partition *just* to be able to use IIS. After explaining to him that he could just save his data from his laptop and reinstall it with pro, his reaction was basically "oh... ok"
To be fair (Score:4, Interesting)
Some very good programmers I work with have no ability to use a computer above and beyond the compiler, and a few unix commands. The ability to work with end users, gather requirements and turn them into a working system are distinct from the ability to understand why MS made a "Pro" and "Home" version of Windows XP (something that still isn't clear to me).
I'll grant you, there are a few people who understand everything from the boot manager, to device drivers, to HTML coding, to Java coding. Those people are exceptional, and I don't think that makes other people "bad" or "dumb"
Option? In .se, it's almost a req't to care 4 kids (Score:5, Interesting)
In Sweden, a couple gets to -split- a year
of Family Leave (paid at 90% of the salary
of person taking it - on a particular day)
If the man doesn't participate in the 1st-
year's child minding (after the woman goes
back to work), they lose some of the bene-
fit.
A man almost -has- to look after the kids;
in Sweden, it's not really an option.
(The women wouldn't want it any other way,
nor would a Real Man(tm), either, I think)
Re:Option? In .se, it's almost a req't to care 4 k (Score:3, Interesting)
Remember that "sexist" Harvard president who talked about innate abilities of women awhile back?
One of the things he discussed was that being a stay-at-home parent for a year or two may significantly impair a person's career. Since mothers tend to be the stay at home parent, guess who's career suffers? Imagine quitting your job in 1999 to raise your baby, and re-entering the IT field in 2004? You'd have missed the release of Windows 2000 and Windows XP, a linux kernel or two, new stuff on the Cisco en
Re:Option? In .se, it's almost a req't to care 4 k (Score:5, Funny)
Re:What is wrong with women? (Score:5, Insightful)
Work is not an option. We don't have the option to stay home with children, be a housewife
My wife stays home with the kids. It isn't easy. Spending all day at home with kids is extremely trying. There's nothing to do. She can't get involved in her crafts, because the kids will insist on "helping." She can't watch her TV shows because there is too much violence and sexuality in them (yes, it's that damned "Desperate Housewives" show).
It's cute and fun to play with the kids and all, but, alphabet letter blocks get kind of boring after 15 minutes. She can do laundry, clothes and some cleaning during the day, but those get very boring after a few days.
Her legs and back are constantly tired of bending down to clean up messes or pick up small children that want 'cuddle' time, but aren't willing to let you sit down during the cuddle. The only "break" she gets is about an hour in the middle of the day when both kids are sleeping at the same time. Kind of just like the hour I get for lunch.
By 8:30PM the kids are in bed. The first one will wake up promptly at 6:00AM. She is in a constant state of sleep deprivation.
Staying at home with kids and being a housewife is not an easy job. I don't care what it looked like on "leave it to beaver." It's rather tragic that society (both sexes) have so demeaned the work of a woman in the home. I'm all for women having choices, but choosing to stay home is not "taking the easy way out" or "allowing a patriarchal society define you". It's committing yourself to a long, difficult, un-compensated but very emotionally rewarding career path.
Re:What is wrong with women? (Score:3, Insightful)
"Housewives" per-se are mostly found either in middle and upper classes of more developed countries and in the lower classes of the least developed ones.
Not *that* strange if you come to think about it: in a high-earning environment, one parent is enough to "provide" financial care, while in low-earning environments you can't afford to have somebody looking after your kids while you work.
However, there's a big difference: you'll almost never meet a "househusband" in a low-earni
Re:What is wrong with women? (Score:3, Insightful)
The full nappies on babies. That always makes me want to puke. I never understood how such a
wow (Score:2)
Re:wow (Score:4, Informative)
By: Patricia Pickett
Lasha Dekker says it was mostly chance that led her to a career in IT - but that's not stopping her from encouraging young women to consider working in the same field.
Dekker, vice-president of developer and platform evangelism for Microsoft Canada Co., was a keynote speaker at Wednesday's Explore IT Conference, a one-day event that introduced grade-nine girls to career opportunities in IT. Conference organizers estimated around 500 students attended the event, held at the Alberta College of Art & Design (ACAD), the Southern Alberta Institute of Technology, Mount Royal College and the University of Calgary, all in Calgary.
Participants had a choice of several hands-on sessions where they could try everything from building their own computer network to generating computer animations or designing a Web site.
Dekker noted that today only 20 per cent of graduates from college or university computer science programs are women. "There is a tremendous opportunity for women in this area. For girls...interested in IT, I want to underscore that they should go for it, and for the ones that are not sure, they should at least consider it and explore the opportunities available in IT."
Dekker said her own career in IT naturally unfolded because of her early academic interests. "I just got lucky when I was in high school; sciences and math came easy," said Dekker, who holds a B.A. in computer sciences and statistics from McMaster University in Hamilton, Ont. "It is not because I received a lot of direction (that I ended up in IT). It was really by chance that I ended up in the career I am in today. But through my keynote, I hope to provide a bit of guidance (to attendees), which I didn't receive 20 years ago...in grade nine."
Conference organizers invited Dekker, whose group at Microsoft focuses on the enterprise, academic and student developer community, to participate in the conference because of her team's connections with the latter two developer categories.
To prepare for the conference, she said she spent two hours with a focus group of grade-nine girls in Toronto, brainstorming about young women's issues and concerns about going into IT. From this meeting, she came up with her Top Ten Myths and Facts presentation about IT careers.
"Some issues (the girls) brought up included fears that their friends will think (working in IT) is a geeky thing to do, and that IT work is not very social," she said. "They were concerned that there were limitations for women in this area of technology, and they felt there is a stigma associated with IT in terms of it not being a very exciting place to work. They also had the impression that IT workers are chained to a computer and their office for all of their days."
Dekker said she addressed these myths by talking to conference attendees about what a career in IT is really like, drawing from her own experiences. "You often have the opportunity to work around the world...and you are not chained to a computer. There are different customers to work with, and you can explore different areas of IT, including research and development, programming, sales and marketing."
Victor Doerksen, Alberta's Minister of Innovation and Science, said his government division, one of the conference's Silver Sponsors (contributing between Can$ 3,000 and $5,999), supports science awareness not just for girls but also for all young people at the event's target grade level. "This is when students (start) to make decisions about what they will take in high school and beyond. We want to encourage them to stay in math and sciences to give them more options for the future."
Encouraging technology skills development will help the province compete over the next several years as the world moves toward a global, knowledge-based economy, Doerksen said. "The skill requirements will continue to grow, and we just need more people in (technology) fields with skills and talents to make us more globally competitive."
Dilbert said it best... (Score:5, Funny)
Re:Dilbert said it best... (Score:2, Funny)
I know several.. (Score:5, Insightful)
It isn't really a stigma once you get into it. Usually they are popular girls. I have to say I have known fewer "geeky" girls in IT than the popular type... It really all depends on the person.
If there is one thing I can say for certain, it is that the female IT stigma is definately non-existant. I'm sure the fear of it exists, but in practice it doesn't. I believe most of the fear of the stigma comes from females that don't know what they are doing and make their way up for other reasons. I know this happens in IT more than other places. And it usually isn't because of a lack of qualified girls, but a lack of hiring experienced girls.
Re:I know several.. (Score:5, Funny)
Re:I know several.. (Score:5, Insightful)
Which can very often be exactly the problem. Many girls in IT have a disadvantage because they have not had as much chance to solve problems independently. Helplessness is a habit that is very easy to acquire but can be very harmful in the long run.
Re:I know several.. (Score:3, Insightful)
Why force this on girls? (Score:5, Insightful)
While it may just be "stigmata" about the socially isolating aspects, it surely isn't about the "boring" aspects. I promise you my girlfriend just wouldn't ever enjoy spending 6 hours recompiling and securing a *nix system. Where as I find it to be quite relaxing and a fun challenge at times.
Is that you, Dr. Summers? (Score:5, Funny)
Re:Why force this on girls? (Score:2, Insightful)
Re:Why force this on girls? (Score:4, Insightful)
The meaning is misinterpreted as saying that all woman cannot do such things, no woman knows math, no woman understands science, no woman can employ linear reasoning in a manner that produces good results in a field such as engineering. This is clearly not the case, there are many women who are good at such things, I have an aunt that is an exceptional doctor for example. In fact I have been treated by many excellent physicians and surgeons that have been women. I was beaten in math by a female student in my final year in high school and I was actually taught math by a female teacher. What it means is there are simply more males who are good at such things, more males that think the right way, more males that are willing to have the single minded obsessive focus on particular problems that I myself have observed in females less commonly, in both fields that are "socially acceptable" for females and those that are not. There are very few women in this world that are willing to discuss many fields, particularly those related to technology, even when surrounded by people who's respect would actually be gained by participation. There of cause women who will heartily enjoy discuss such subjects and they are known amongst some male circles as "totally super awesome". Of cause it doesn't mean that all males are good at it either, or even that most males are good at such things, or even that many more males are suited to the task than females.
Secondly the motivations are misinterpreted as being either chauvinistic or misogynistic, as a way to prove male superiority and keep woman out of their domain. This is totally not the case. Claiming that most women are not as naturally talented at particular fields because of their physiology is not asserting they are inferior, it is simply making a generalisation on a very narrow part of a woman's skillset. It isn't meant to discuss worth, merely compatibility with a particular endeavour.
And to conclude. If anyone, regardless of sex, race, colour or creed really cares about "societal and social reasons" enough to keep them away from doing what they really want to do, then frankly, I think they would make atrocious computer nerd and I want them the hell away from the industry. I havn't been part of society or in any way social since I started programming. I know both males and females who are real computer geeks and they have both turned their backs on society to the same amount, they had to at least somewhat otherwise they wouldn't be good at what they do. I think society is probably the flimsiest explanation for something caused by physiology that I have ever heard, especially when it is related to computers.
Girls are discouraged? (Score:5, Insightful)
Because, as we all know, young male geeks are always the most popular kids in high school. They're never social outcasts. They're never isolated. They always have girlfriends. They never EVER get bullied.
See the point?
In your rush to play knight in shining armor to these "victims" who don't feel "encouraged" enough, you've completely ignored the fact that boys have traditionally never been encouraged to get into these fields either. They've typically received harsher treatment, including physical violence, just for being geeks. But notice, they didn't give up, they didn't run off and major in business or medicine, no, they stuck it out.
Remember when Jon Katz tried to make a big deal out of bullying? Most Slashdotters would have nothing of it, even though many were themselves victims of bullying. At worst they might crack the occasional joke about it, but they seldom--if ever--complain.
Why can't women do the same? Why can't they just stop complaining, STFU, and do their work just as men do? Why do they always need special treatment, special privileges, and special protection?
Re:Girls are discouraged? (Score:3, Insightful)
I haven't seen men recieve some of the treatment that I have. I won't go into it here, but there are certainly some very idiotic men around who are very unprofessional. This certainly hasn't stopped me from doing my work, and it hasn't stopped me from being good at it. I still don't think it's acceptable to treat
Re:Why force this on girls? (Score:5, Interesting)
I don't think that's a gender issue at all. The sheer mind numbing boredom of a lot of IT is what's kept me (a male) from entertaining the possibility of going in that direction myself, despite the fact that I've been using computers (macs in particular) literally since I was in diapers. I'm not really qualified to speak about differing genders' attitudes on different fields of work, and I think any generalization in that regard will certainly be flawed, but I think it all comes down to the fact that, and I hate to put it this way, the IT biz isn't really many people's dream job anymore. The promise of guarenteed riches evaporated, making it merely a tolerable and necessary profession earning a living wage. It doesn't inspire lust anymore, sorry to say.
RE: I.T. - no longer a "dream job"? (Score:5, Insightful)
You're absolutely right though about I.T. in general. I think the *only* reason people flocked to it a few years ago was this idea that you'd get a huge paycheck for doing relatively little actual work. (Everyone from construction workers to truck drivers were chomping at the bit to get their MCSE, A+, and so on - and to then free themselves from physical labor and boredom while doubling their take-home pay.) Unfortunately, this only lasted for a short while, at best - until the bottom fell out of the crazy dot-com era and Y2K panic subsided.
I.T. today is pretty much back to what it always was before the "general public" thought it was a career track worth pursuing... LOADS of PATIENCE and a stubborn desire to find solutions to frustrating little problems and glitches. It likely includes pulling some LONG hours, and/or researching things on your own time, off the clock, to find answers.
Male or female, this isn't usually most people's idea of a "rewarding/fun job" - but it fills the bill nicely for us long-time computer geeks who did this stuff all day long for free anyway, as a hobby/personal interest.
That's where the "gender issue" really comes in, IMHO. The vast majority of people I meet in I.T. today who are really sharp and do their job well have had an interest in computers for years before it became a career path for them. 99% of the time, women didn't have this interest - so when they get into I.T., it means they're only using knowledge they gained through school or study guides/courses. They're not applying a vast collection of real-world knowledge built up in their head from the time they were a young teen playing for hours each day with a home computer in their house, etc. etc.
Re:Why force this on girls? (Score:3, Insightful)
In short, you're a dope.
Re:Why force this on girls? (Score:3, Insightful)
I haven't studied the subject in detail, but I think there are probably both biological and social reasons that women are less common in the sciences and maths than men. It's the opposite situation in fields focused on caring for people, such as nursing. My attitude is that it's great for a woman to be a mathem
Irresponsible (Score:5, Insightful)
Re:Irresponsible (Score:5, Insightful)
yet to meet qualified professional programmer who
is unemployed. Not self-taught 'PHP hacker' or half-
baked VB 'programmer', but a CS graduate with decent
diploma and a hint of passion for IT.
Re:Irresponsible (Score:5, Informative)
Plus you're looking at ~25K a year as a CS programmer thses days in Cali. And that MIGHT cover rent...forget about owning a car, or eating food.
Re:Irresponsible (Score:5, Insightful)
Re:Irresponsible (Score:4, Insightful)
Yes, I know, people mod that way anyway - but it does get caught in metamoderation. Mod people down for the "Profit" and "In Soviet Russia" stuff - but don't post saying that someone should be modded down just because they disagree.
Re:Irresponsible (Score:3, Interesting)
The growing influx of technological culture is already demanding more technical competency from society as a whole than the majority of its individuals can provide.
I think the unemployment issue arises from insufficient management with technical competency. The IT workforce lacks a familiar liason to traditional business (think PHB types) that would enable effective utilization of IT in the scale that would provide for a more rigorous application of IT as a professio
Re:Irresponsible (Score:3, Insightful)
I make e-learning. It's a great field. The field of training is mostly women, ironically.
IT isn't geeky? (Score:5, Interesting)
Now, as an alpha geek (Slashdot on Saturday? guilty) I'd be the first to say that geeky isn't something to avoid or be ashamed of. But trying to claim that something very obviously geeky isn't, won't help get more women into IT.
Re:IT isn't geeky? (Score:5, Funny)
Dude, that just gets you into the club. Don't expect to be elected president.
Perhaps they shouldn't go into IT (Score:5, Funny)
If someone is going to be influenced by what their friends think, perhaps we should let them be influenced. Many consider going into IT to be geeky. If you're immature enough to let your friends stop you from going into a particular market, then maybe your not really ready for any serious market and should work in a market that requires next to no maturity (I hear McDonalds is looking for people to hire).
One comment and URL (Score:2)
http://www.itworldcanada.com/Mobile/ViewArticle.a
Not exciting? I Wish! (Score:3, Insightful)
I wish it wasn't...
The fact is that it tends to get exciting a bit more often that I wish and I suspect the "exciting" as in pull your hair out... the CIO is screaming at you... get it fixed yesterday... isn't the kind of exciting that a 9yr is thinking of.
Here's wishing for a nice boring week this week!
Why do schools encourage people to pursue IT (Score:5, Insightful)
1) Being in IT is not as profitable as being in management (from what I've seen).
2) Encouraging people into math and science and IT invalidates perfectly valid career paths.
3) Colleges (in my experience) have droves of people who sign up for computer science their Freshman year, and then change out to another major because they find out what the major is really like.
Why do you need to encourage anybody into a particular field in high school? Shouldn't they decide for themselves what they want to do? If you're going to encourage them into a field, why not one that's more profitable. Tell them to become architects or businesspeople. Business is where the $$ is.
Re:It's still a good idea... (Score:3, Insightful)
You invest tons and tons of money and resources into telling people that they should go pursue a career in the sciences.
What about the people who really wanted a career in the humanities? You totally read statement #2 wrong. It's not a relationship between IT and math and science, it's a relationship between IT/Math/Science and every other field that there is. The emphasis is always "we need better engineers." Last time I checked, we didn't need any more engineers. In fact, the field
Re:It's still a good idea... To further clarify (Score:4, Insightful)
The point isn't that IT isn't hot. It is. The point is that high schools seem to push everyone towards it.
The result of this is that you get a lot of people going down a career path that they don't actually want to be on. You take some 9th grader, and tell them that the career that they are interested in is "nice," but today, we're going to explore the great future you could have in IT. Soon, everyone thinks that IT is the career for them, or, at least, that's the one that the smart kids get into, or that's what they're supposed to do, or that's where the money is.
I talk to all kinds of people who think that IT/Programming/Computer Science is a great, high paying career. That's why CS people should go into the field. The fact is, that the guy who went into business school, for the "to make money" reason, did better than the guy who went into Computer Science "to make money."
As for smarts, sure, you can be very smart and go into IT... or Political Science... or Business... or Architecture... or Music. Life as a musician may be hard... but we're not outsourcing all of our music to foreign countries. If that's what the kid wants to do, why are you telling them that they should go into Math/Science/IT.
For that matter, why are you telling women specifically to go into the field? I agree that there are fewer women in CS (and I wish that the ratio was better... it's hard finding a date in the department), but telling a bunch of high school women "you should go into IT to even out the ratio" is akin to saying "all of the jobs that you'd rather pursue are girly jobs, you need to go into IT to keep up with the boys."
You should just provide the best environment possible for kids to become the best whatever they want to be that they can be. You should get rid of sexism by not practicing sexism. You should get rid of racism by not practicing racism. You should let kids pursue a career path that they enjoy so they don't become 20-something slackers that don't have anything to do with their lives, because they foreclosed on the opportunities that they wanted to pursue, because you told them that all of the money was in computers.
Re:It's still a good idea... To further clarify (Score:3, Insightful)
I, however, wanted to be in computer science when I was a kid. I spent much of high school learning about programming, robotics, and AI. I went to Jefferson Lab for their series of lectures aimed at high school students and loved every second of it.
So, this brings about the question. If a kid is going to Model UN, are you going t
You didn't know? (Score:3, Funny)
This is really one elaborate plan devised by older geeks to help the younger geeks get dates! Most of those women in marketting and the "normal" majors/teams at work wont even talk to us!
Re:It's still a good idea... To further clarify (Score:3, Interesting)
I talk to all kinds of people who think that IT/Programming/Computer Science is a great, high paying career.
Which it is -- compared to most things. The median household income is something 45,000 for native born families. If you have two computer professionals in the family with the kind of jobs that require degrees, chancs are you're doing better than most. A lot better.
That's why CS people should go into the field. The fact is, that the guy who went into business school, for the "to make money" r
Re:Why do schools encourage people to pursue IT (Score:3)
Perhaps we should stop worrying about the gender gap, and just let people choose what they would like to do based on what they... like.
Changes in Society (Score:5, Interesting)
And as a guy student at Georgia Tech, I definately hope that more women start studying the sciences..
Honesty (Score:5, Interesting)
But I think there probably is more than a kernel of truth to them. IT careers, at least the ones I've had, aren't in fact very social. Aside from the not-so-infrequent game of foosball, there was not a heck of a lot of interaction going on. Let's face it, IT-centric jobs are not exactly hubs of social activity, so why pretend otherwise?
Certainly there will be much anectodal evidence to illustrate the converse, but on the whole I think it is difficult to discredit the assertion that IT workplaces aren't as socially-friendly as many other fields. If what women are looking for is human interaction, we should not mislead them down the path to computer-centric work.
It behooves us to be honest about what we do.
Amen, and just as important... (Score:5, Insightful)
From what I have seen watching freshmen girls in CS now that I am a senior is that a lot of them really aren't interested in computers. Most of them really aren't at all. At my university we have a female CS professor who is very incompetent and tries to recruit girls because they are girls. Then she turns around and gets on their cases in her classes when they screw up, in part because they're "making girls in CS look bad." This isn't healthy and at its core, this is what specifically seeking out girls for CS does. It makes them a statistic and ignores what they might actually be good at and enjoy.
Women should be encouraged to try things for the sake of the liberal arts experience, not because "we need more women in IT." Frankly we don't need a hell of a lot more IT workers. We are already training lots of people who suck, are apathetic toward it and/or would be happier elsewhere. That last part is the most critical part. These feminazi recruiters don't care what might make that girl happy, they want to see their quota of estrogen for IT filled, even if the girl ends up in a field she hates with a degree that is worthless for what she ends up wanting to do.
This is the natural result of the "group rights" bullshit popular on the left. You see the forest, but you don't see the trees. You are so damned concerned with gender politics to realize that, regardless of what the Vagina Monologues say, a woman is not defined by her vagina anymore than a man is by his penis. A woman's destiny, is not in her gender, but in herself and God's plan for her. Oh wait, did I just say God's plan for her? Another strike for political incorrectness.
I think anyone with some interest should be encouraged to take an entry level CS/CIS/IT class to see what's involved. Just stop pushing girls to do more than that. Let them make their own decisions and stop telling them that their choice isn't good enough. If she wants to be an IT worker, that's her choice. If she wants to be an artist, that's her choice. If she wants to work on cars for a living, that's her choice. If she wants to be a housewife, that's her choice. It is no one's right to tell her that because she was born female that any of those choices are invalid for her. Her career choice, as long as it is legal, is her choice. If she wants to get married and stay at home to raise her kids, that's her right and choice.
So repeat after me: let the girls make the choice and then respect it. The fucking elitists, most of whom are feminists, have no right to criticize a woman for pursuing the occupational path that makes her happy. Social justice is about people being free to live as individuals and to pursue happiness, not about stuffing individuals into a faceless quota. The irony is that feminism has accomplished nothing for women. Coercing them into professions is no different than coercing them into being "barefoot, pregnant and in the kitchen." It is not liberation to chastise her until she feels unhappy and without self-realization outside a 9-5. It is nothing more than a different manifestation of the same alleged patriarchical drive that "forced women to stay home" the only difference being is that the feminists tend to want to force them into the work place. If the goal of feminism is freedom for women it should place a huge sample plate of life options before them and let them choose and then be proud that they are happy regardless of which one they choose.
IT requires unique people skills (Score:3, Interesting)
You point out that IT people would ideally be more people-friendly than the Average Joe. Interestingly enough, one data recovery service actually employs a psychologist [sfgate.com] with no computer training to help calm distraught callers. She helps provide some of the people-soothing skills necessary to get the hysterical callers to calm down enough so they can describe their problem to tech support. Wouldn't it be even better if the tech support could provide that human touch? Why employ two seperate people? We
Evidence (Score:2, Insightful)
Apparently IT isn't geeky or socially isolating. (Score:2)
Why encourage "girls"? (Score:5, Insightful)
My father became an engineer because a teacher at St. Dunstan's (in Milbrae, CA), his parochial grammar school, encouraged him to do so b/c the guy -- my dad -- was always good at math and science. It wasn't til much later that he actually settled on the particular subcategory of engineering (post tours as a Seabee in Nam) and began working on his career.
I think the same model should still hold. We should encourage those who show aptitude to get into this field. And instead of encouraging them to "join IT," we should be encouraging them to take as much math as they can handle and worry about specific job/career paths later on, when it's more appropriate.
So my two gripes are: (1) don't just encourage girls for the sake of encouraging girls, encourage those who are actually likely to excel and improve the field and (2) don't start pushing specific career paths to 14/15 year olds. Instead get them working on the academics that underpin many careers in technology in general. To encourage someone to become a help desk employee is a bit premature at age 14 imo.
Oh yeah, I'm a girl (a woman, actually).
Re:Why encourage "girls"? (Score:3, Interesting)
One of the strange things about all of this is that in the US anyway more than 50% of all undergraduate degrees in mathematics are awarded to women. So it is not a case of the aptitude or interest in the quantitative world not being there.
There is some other exclusion mechanism in operation. And I think that women are not going to fight it when there are other ways they can express their talent without having to contend
Re:Why encourage "girls"? (Score:3, Interesting)
IT isn't right for every girl (Score:2, Insightful)
Lie to them? (Score:2)
So lie to them and tell them otherwise?
I'm not sure wether I'm trying to be funny or not... Just they told me the same things couple of years ago (even tho Im a boy) and I still think that was bulls***
Sad State of Affairs (Score:2, Interesting)
Fortunately, the students are quite motivated and the girls perform as well as the boys (and in some cases better).
It's sad to see that as they move into high school, the pressure to conform and be cool forces girls (and boys for that matter) into certain well-defined areas.
It try to encourage all my students to excel in computer skills, but I'm only one voice in a cacophanty of voices (TV, movies, etc.).
What's the solution?
They're Right (Score:3, Insightful)
IT is an incredibly boring profession.
If they want to do something interesting and worthwhile, they should become scientists.
Not to worry, girls (Score:5, Funny)
Once your High Elf builds up enough EXP points and you've found the right Star Trek .sig for your posts, all these fears will melt away.
Comment removed (Score:5, Funny)
Getting an early start -- (Score:5, Interesting)
I can only attribute my own success in the IT industry from being exposed to computers and getting involved with them as they began to take root in the very early 80s. My dad got me a Vic20 when I was 8, and I was writing programs soon thereafter. I went through the whole gambit of OS's and languages and whatever software I could get my hands on. Because I grew up real poor, I was lucky to use what was provided by the schools, so it gave me a wide range of exposure.
By the time I got to college, I had developed chronic pain, and couldn't do work study in the cafeteria (why is that always the first job??) - so I picked up a job because I knew MSDOS and WP5.0. I was a consultant for a lab at college! And they put me through 2 weeks of school at HP!! *woooo* Not long after that, I changed my major and I was on my way to where I am today. Then I transferred schools to a better program.
Coming up through the ranks in the relatively new field of Information Technology has been fraught with a lot of challenges. Not only is it you against everyone else who is better trained, smarter, or more motivated.. but there truly is a battle of the sexes in IT. Particularly on the network systems operations side of the house. Come on... you know it and see it every day. Sometimes it's caused major issues, but it all has depended on the environment and the level of professionality within it. It's *tough* when you are faced with working 75 - 90 hours a week, and then have to go home and raise a family and care for a home. But we do it, we do it gratefully, because it's afforded us girls a chance to stand on equal footing for once. At least I did.
All of that being said, I fully believe that there should be strong internship and mentoring programs for all young people getting involved with IT, especially those coming in from the bootcamp schools like Microskills, or whatever. While they may have the knowledge and motivation - there is an awful lot more to the IT culture than knowing how to install Windows 2003 or Linux. I sure know that I could have and still do need a good mentor to help me through tough situations that arise in the day to day operations of IT. Some things, I couldn't get through on my own, and left me high and dry, not because of any other reason that my own dumb ass.
Finally, I have to say that 14 years in the industry, I've gone from a flunky consultant bossing around lunkheads in business school to a sr. systems engineer doing huge infrastructure implementations and upgrades, project management, and policy design & implementation. And every 72 hour stretch, all nighter, business trip, massive outage, tear, sweat, blood and torn muscle has been worth it to be where I am today. And I couldn't have done it without the love and dreams that I started building as a child.
Teen Girl Squad (Score:3, Funny)
So-and-So!
What's-Her-Face!
The Ugly One!
Which one works in IT?
It's over!
Not exciting? Get used to it girls (Score:3, Insightful)
As an IT Guy (Score:3, Informative)
In other news... (Score:3, Funny)
-Ballet Dancer
-Nurse
-Kindergarden Teacher
-Hooters Waitress
Maybe this is sexist and everything, but... (Score:5, Interesting)
Mind you, most guys in high school consider working at McDonalds to be the holy grail of employment.
In short, high school is a fucked up place that has no bearing on reality. And the people in that society aren't very good at making life-changing decisions.
I agree. (Score:3, Funny)
Equal Opportunity Offshoring (Score:5, Insightful)
I won't let my daughter go into IT if I have any say. If you don't go into IT management, your options shrink when you get into your mid 40's and after. Plus, global competition is eating away at both salaries and opportunitees. Business and sales have more long-term opportunities and safer from cheap offshore labor. If she has the knack, that is where I will encourage her to go. IT is fine if you really dig it for technology's satisfaction alone; otherwise it is a dead-end wallet-drainer going the way of manufacturing.
I wouldn't encourage ANYONE to go into IT now! (Score:5, Insightful)
Hey, I'm all for women entering high skilled jobs, but I'd recommend going into law or management instead. That's where the money and future career growth is.
National Security Versus Salaries (Score:5, Insightful)
I notice a weird hyprocracy. Countries overall seem to want more techies for national security and "global competative" reasons. Yet, they don't take care of the techies they have. They happily let them compete with Phd's making $3-an-hour in Cheapbuckistan, and then complain when not enough people go into tech.
Use the carrot, NOT the stick if you really want more techies. Draining the paychecks and opportunities via "free trade" is not going to encourage potential techies. One hand tries to create what the other hand is destroying. Typical of governments.
As a female in Computer Science... (Score:4, Insightful)
While there may be physiological differences between men and women (and there are studies supporting that), no study has conclusively shown that women inherently lack the necessary skills to succeed in math, science, and engineering. Therefore, the reasons that girls choose English, Psychology, and Biology over Math, Computer Science, and Engineering (for example) are societal influences. There is a real male-oriented culture still in these areas, and people have two choices: to point to all the progress that has been made over the past century and the lip service that equality is given and say "Look! There's no problem at all!"... or to open their eyes and realize that discrimination and discouragement happens in subtle ways.
Adolescent girls, like adolescent boys, are delicate. A few off-color comments about women's ability in a field by a person in a position of authority, and a girl may, when the going gets tough in junior high, decide to go the safe route--and excel at writing, art, music, etc.
Re:As a female in Computer Science... (Score:3, Insightful)
Only an idiot like Larry Summers would not have noticed the generation of women in applied mathematic, biology research and many other areas of science. But I'm not sure that I would encourage any young person to go into our field.
Let us look at the current situation, at least in the United States. There is very little job security, offshoring has moved something like 400,000 jobs overseas (in a field where employment is only a few million to start with). There is age discrimination, regardless of you
IT is plenty exciting (waiting to get outsourced) (Score:3, Funny)
Re:Why stop in Canada? (Score:2)
Or perhaps my particular university just has more women in IT classes?
Re:Why stop in Canada? (Score:2, Funny)
Re:Why stop in Canada? (Score:3, Funny)
"Wait - do we go on 01, 10, 11, go, or on 01, 10, 11?"
"We always go on 10!"
"OK! 01, 10....AAAAAUUUGHHHH!"
Re:Why stop in Canada? (Score:2)
Re:IT Jail Bait (Score:2)
Jailbait is under 14 in Canada.
But, don't take pictures of your 'girlfriend' if she's under 18, thats illegal.
And you might want to wear body armor when her father finds out.
actually redux (Score:3, Insightful)
If this is actually going on in your (engineering/CS) work environment, then you've got a problem and I'd suggest you don't waste yourself toiling amongst such people.
Otherwise it's just jackoffs being jackoffs. Not relegated to the field of CS, unfortunately (just ask folks in Sales, or the Financial Industry or
Actually, Microsoft is an interesting workplace (Score:3, Interesting)
For example, within 6 months of employment, my released project was a subject of discussion on Slashdot. (Really, it's 2005, and Microsoft technology is not all about NEAR and FAR pointers, MFC and "NIH" attitude any more.)
The IT folks have all sorts of state of the art hardware to play