Area 51 Hackers Map Buried Surveillance Network 876
advair writes "There's a story on SecurityFocus about a pair of Area 51 'hackers' who discovered a buried network of wireless motion sensors on the public land surrounding the "operating location near Groom Lake, Nevada." Using a frequency counter and a GPS receiver, they tracked down and logged 30 - 40 of the sensors, before the FBI and Air Force raided one of them, and questioned the other. Now one of the guys has been charged with a federal crime for allegedly removing one of the devices that was protecting a base that doesn't officially exist."
Area 51 is a hoax by the goverment (Score:5, Interesting)
Area 51 is probably just a few buildings there to keep the amount of people to perpetuate the image that area 51 is real.
This people probably have fallen for it, and the government might have just planted the motion sensors to keep them busy, they the person steal one I don't know, but either way the government sorta unofficial clams it, and the conspiracy theorists will go wild.
Re:Area 51 is a hoax by the goverment (Score:3, Insightful)
Oh those were the days!
Re:Area 51 is a hoax by the goverment (Score:3, Funny)
Lob all you want, but dont forget that that same inept government developed the internet or at least what became the internet, and without it, you would still be posting comments like yours on dial up BBS's...
Wait, this is the same U.S. government that gave us Amtrak and the USPS?
That said, my personal theory is the same as mentioned in the article (yes, I RTFA) - that Area 51 is a testing ground for new, experimental aircraft. As a result, they don't like visitors.
-jh
Re:Area 51 is a hoax by the goverment (Score:5, Interesting)
Wait, this is the same U.S. government that gave us Amtrak and the USPS?
Don't go blaming the government because Americans prefer travelling cross-country in their own personal conveyances rather than using more efficient means of transportation.
As for the USPS it works just fine. I'd like to hear how much you'd charge to pick-up, transport and deliver a letter from one coast to the other, let alone millions of letters and packages on a daily basis.
Re:Area 51 is a hoax by the goverment (Score:5, Interesting)
My friend sent me a letter from Germany on friday morning, via DHL (private company), paid 38euro (about 45-50US) for it. I got it on tuesday morning.
Another friend sent me a package on thursday afternoon from Missouri, via USPS. It was a Muvo2 MP3 player in its original box, with all the manuals, power supplies, etc. He paid $20US for it, and I got it on... tuesday morning.
Don't knock the USPS.
Re:Area 51 is a hoax by the goverment (Score:4, Informative)
I imagine all other shipping companies have the same problems, the Dallas-Fort Worth depot of FedEx for instance. Most other depots are VERY fast, turnaround times of several HOURS...things almost invariably sit overnight at DFW, sometimes not leaving for nearly 48 hours.
Re:Area 51 is a hoax by the goverment (Score:4, Interesting)
Re:OT: One more data point... (Score:4, Interesting)
I had a friend who was a pharmacist at a hospital in northern Michigan (UP, Keweenaw area). He ordered some medical supplies from a place, and said "ship them UPS overnight. *DO* *NOT* ship them FedEx." Well, they shipped them FedEx overnight.
About 5 days later the boxes were still not there. He called them and said "You shipped them FedEx, didn't you?" They had, and (as he knew) FedEx in that area is not guaranteed. They weren't going to drive 180 miles round trip from the depot to deliver one stinkin' package. They put all the boxes on a pallet, and when there's enough to bother, then they send out a truck.
UPS, OTOH, has a local depot, and plenty of packages come into the area, so they have no problems delivering overnight (though there is a cutoff line, way out on the peninsula, where they don't guarantee 10:30 delivery anymore).
This was 20 years ago, I'm betting FedEx has a local presence now, but I know there are still parts of the country where there are better choices than FedEx.
This story always comes to mind when I'm watching the commercials where the guy didn't use FedEx, so the package is delayed.
Re:Area 51 is a hoax by the goverment (Score:5, Insightful)
Granted, the USPS seems to have become a much better service since it was privatized. It also faced some fair free market competition, e.g. from UPS and Fedex, to help that process along. The rail system's competitors are the heavily susidized airlines, commercial buses (which are also a struggling, some would even say floundering industry) and the interstate trucking system, and these impact different areas (passengers and cargo are effectively very different matters, finacially, and Amtrak's performance in one area is best judged seperately fron the other).
Re:Area 51 is a hoax by the goverment (Score:5, Informative)
My friend once got a letter sent from Belize. It was addressed "Tom and Debbie. The Yellow House Next to the Meat Store on Atlantic Ave. Rochester, NY" It took a grand total of 6 days to get there.
Flame off.
Re:Area 51 is a hoax by the goverment (Score:4, Interesting)
Once at a bar, my friend went to the bathroom. While she was gone me and another friend talked about sending her some kind of 'souvenir' from the bar. We got the bright idea of sending one of those cardboard beer coasters. So we wrote her name and address on the coaster (we didn't even know her zip code so we left it off), put a stamp on it, and gave it to the bartender to drop in a mailbox. We were doubtful it would ever get to her, bit sure enough she got it in good condition within 1-2 days.
Since then I've mailed all kinds of fun stuff with addresses written on them, like chewing gum wrappers, tiny post-it notes, etc. I think everything has arrived intact and relatively quickly. And all for a single stamp.
So in my personal experience, USPS totally rocks.
Re:Area 51 is a hoax by the goverment (Score:5, Informative)
Coconuts are OK. Bricks make the post office think you're mailing drugs. Dead fish, old seaweed, and rancid cheese will make it through, but won't earn you any friends.
Re:Area 51 is a hoax by the goverment (Score:3, Insightful)
Re:Area 51 is a hoax by the goverment (Score:4, Insightful)
We did experience taxation at it's finest, however. EVERYTHING was taxed.. if you had a radio in your car you paid a tax. If you had a certain type of TV you paid a tax. We where shielded from a lot of the taxes, but not all of them. It was pretty unbeleivable really.
The point is that the United States is actually a pretty reasonable place tax wise. At least it was compared to most of the countries we visited while we lived in Europe.
Re:Area 51 is a hoax by the goverment (Score:5, Informative)
I assume you mean "GDP", as I have no idea what "GPD" might mean. In any case, no, that's not what it indicates - you're completely wrong. Even if the total Swedish GDP is lower than the US, which it surely is, the Swedes pay out a higher percentage of that smaller pie in taxes. If you compare per capita GDP, the disparity becomes even more apparent - the Swedes have a per capita GDP of about $26,000 per year (PPP adjusted), of which they lose more than 50% to taxes, or more than $13,000 per year per person. The United States has a per capita GDP of about $36,000 per year, of which they lose about 28% to taxes, or about $10,000 per year per person.
How you got modded insightful, I'll never know.
In the US, around 50% of my income goes to taxes.
I doubt it. In the state with the highest total tax burden [taxfoundation.org], Connecticut, the average tax burden when combining federal, local, and state taxes is about 33% of income. Either your income is much higher than average to hit 50% taxation, or, more likely, you're just plain wrong. Of course, if you want to lower taxes, I'm listening, but the plain and simple fact is that total taxation in the US is already among the lowest in the developed world.
Re: (Score:3, Insightful)
Re:Area 51 is a hoax by the goverment (Score:4, Insightful)
OK, I don't mean to imply that the US gov't didn't develop the Internet, but I resent the notion that if the US hadn't, nobody else would've thought of it. I'm quite confident that one way or another, we'd still be using the Internet today, even if DARPA hadn't gotten the ball rolling. Someone else would have.
Re:Area 51 is a hoax by the goverment (Score:5, Insightful)
Yeah, we'd be on *some* network at some point, like Compuserve or Genie or something. The beauty of what happened with the internet was that it was not controlled by a single entity, otherwise we'd all be reading slashdot (or some Compuserve created likeness) through a Compuserve branded viewer. Furthermore, things like personal servers, static ip's, p2p, wouldn't be options. As it happened, Darpa created a huge development platform for all of us to experiment on. I doubt without Darpa it would have turned out quite like this.
Re:Area 51 is a hoax by the goverment (Score:4, Funny)
Re:Area 51 is a hoax by the goverment (Score:4, Informative)
No, they didn't develop the Internet. They paid private contractors to develop the Internet. There's quite a difference.
Re:Area 51 is a hoax by the goverment (Score:5, Interesting)
Dreck.
Re:Area 51 is a hoax by the goverment (Score:4, Funny)
Re:Area 51 is a hoax by the goverment (Score:5, Funny)
Re:Area 51 is a hoax by the goverment (Score:5, Funny)
Re:Area 51 is a hoax by the goverment (Score:4, Funny)
Wrong !! ;( (Score:5, Informative)
Re:Wrong !! ;( (Score:5, Insightful)
Stealth airplanes.
Drones.
Robots.
Scientists in white suits
Mean and gruff airport personnel with pistols
Must be some Air Force research base of some sort.
Besides, if they had real aliens, they would show them to the world and say: See, they're trying to kill us all, protect your country from Space Invaders, enlist Today!
Re:Area 51 is a hoax by the goverment (Score:5, Funny)
Won't we rue the day when the insectiod aliens come to take over our planet, and the secret fleet of defense spaceships aren't ready yet cos' the govt. kept having to move them...
Re:Area 51 is a hoax by the goverment (Score:5, Funny)
GOD DAMNIT, IT'S SPELLED HANGAR. H-A-N-G- A -R. I've had this handle for 6 years, and damned if someone dosen't somehow mispell the thing. Same way every time. If you put yer coat on the thing, you call it a hanger, if you put a fuggin airplane or aliens or whatever else in it, it's a hangar.
Sorry, but I had to say that.
Re:Area 51 is a hoax by the goverment (Score:5, Funny)
Re:Area 51 is a hoax by the goverment (Score:3, Funny)
do they have hangers on the hangars?
badabing
Re:Area 51 is a hoax by the goverment (Score:5, Insightful)
Re:Area 51 is a hoax by the goverment (Score:5, Insightful)
Those are apples and oranges my friend. Keeping pictures secret that were sent out to private citizens over the internet is different than keeping a secret among government employees
The American government hasn't been able to keep a single secret longer than about 15 minutes.
How do you know? If they did have a well kept secret, it's well kept so you might not have found out. I'm not trying to be rude, just trying to point out that just because you know some things, doesn't mean you know everything
They's no aliens at Roswell, or you'd have already seen 500 pictures of them on CNN...
Why doesn't CNN march into Area 51 and refuse to leave then because the "public wants to know the truth". I have no doubts at it's highest levels, the US government has ways to control the media both subtle and not so subtly.
Re:Area 51 is a hoax by the goverment (Score:5, Funny)
See, there's things we know we know. And there's things we know we don't know. Then...
Re:Area 51 is a hoax by the goverment (Score:5, Insightful)
More plainly, there's such an abundance of things we don't know that a mere strongly-worded assertion about any one of them can set off the kooks, and the increasingly kook-friendly media. (Mumble mumble Fox mumble.)
I don't believe government employees are not any more fanatical about keeping secrets than ordinary employees, though on some levels they are much more indoctrinated. But still, the thing about Area 51 rumors that have always bugged me is the number of people who would have to be "in" on it, and not talk. And in these days of near-instant communication, it gets a lot harder to prevent leaks.
But the thing that bugs me about Area 51 the most is that the culture of secrecy that some sectors of the government enjoy makes possible a rich environment for spurious stories to flourish. Much worse, to me, than the stories is the secrecy itself, especially since it's alegedly *our* government that's so tightlipped about so much, and Bush and company have made it a lot worse.
So I almost want to wish the conspiracy mongers well on their propaganda efforts -- anything that causes the public to distrust that air of secrecy, and the actions of spooky secret people supposedly in their interest, for there is no force on Earth so horrifying as that of people willing to do wrong things for what they think are right reasons, things like that that work towards increasing that distrust are somewhat positive in my book.
Re:Area 51 is a hoax by the goverment (Score:4, Insightful)
I don't think fox is any worse than any of the other channels when it comes to this. They are kook friendly because kook friendly = ratings. It's like the history channel, you wouldn't say that the history channel is Hitler friendly because they run so many WW2 shows. It's just that WW2 is what history channel viewers like to watch.
I don't believe government employees are not any more fanatical about keeping secrets than ordinary employees, though on some levels they are much more indoctrinated.
I would bet they are. Just for the simple fact that they want to keep their clearance never mind other motavating factors. Loyalty to their country comes to mind.
But still, the thing about Area 51 rumors that have always bugged me is the number of people who would have to be "in" on it, and not talk. And in these days of near-instant communication, it gets a lot harder to prevent leaks.
I doubt there are little green men running around in there. It would be hard to keep something like that quiet. It's probably an advanced air force research facility like other people have suggested. Keeping that quiet isn't too hard, you just tell your employees it's for national security. I think people could shut up about the Aurora and it's no big deal. If (Darth Vader, ET, Alf, whichever Alien) were in there, someone would leak it.
But the thing that bugs me about Area 51 the most is that the culture of secrecy that some sectors of the government enjoy makes possible a rich environment for spurious stories to flourish.
I think the government officials have come to the point where the enjoy doing this to the kooks. Look at the whole planet X thing. There was some kind of internet cult that spammed the newsgroup sci.astronomy for a long time that "Planet X/Nibiru" was returning on May 15 2003 [xs4all.nl] to (bring peace, kill everyone, balance my checkbook, whatever else). They contended that there was one world government that was conspiring not to tell the people they were all going to die. Someone in the military obviously caught wind of the kooks, and to drive them batty named one of their operations in Iraq "Operation Planet X" [go.com] and launched it on may 15 2003. [press-world.com] I think the government likes playing with these people, it's got to be fun to mess with their heads.
Much worse, to me, than the stories is the secrecy itself, especially since it's alegedly *our* government that's so tightlipped about so much, and Bush and company have made it a lot worse.
That is just kookery in my opinion. I doubt there is that many secrets going around, except in the military where there is a need for them. I really don't think George Bush is holding satanic rituals underground with his nazi armys and the illuminati planning to take over the world and enslave humanity when ET lands. I guess I could be wrong.
So I almost want to wish the conspiracy mongers well on their propaganda efforts -- anything that causes the public to distrust that air of secrecy, and the actions of spooky secret people supposedly in their interest, for there is no force on Earth so horrifying as that of people willing to do wrong things for what they think are right reasons,
Do you really think the US government is doing "the wrong things". What exactly do you think they are doing in secret that is so bad for the general population of the US?
things like that that work towards increasing that distrust are somewhat positive in my book.
Do you think there are some things you should trust a government to keep secret (ie, new weapons of mass destruction) so they don't fall into the wrong hands?
Re:Area 51 is a hoax by the goverment (Score:4, Funny)
What is the purpose of a DOOMSDAY device, if you don't TELL ANYONE ABOUT IT, nyeh?
Re:Area 51 is a hoax by the goverment (Score:4, Insightful)
Sorry my brush was a bit broad when I made that statement. The pictures were leaked by soldiers from everything I've read who do fall under "government employees" I suppose. But by government employees what I really ment were scientists and maybe MP's that would be at a place like Area 51. Not to mention, the pictures had to do with rape and abuse. The Soldier who leaked the pictures probably wanted to make sure the abuse stopped. A government employee doesn't have that kind of motivation to leak things about Area 51 unless people are dying/being abused there or there is a threat to the public. Like I mentioned in the parent post, if ET was there I'm sure people would leak it. If it's an air force research lab, I'm sure people would for the most part be quiet. Despite what we might think from reading and posing on Slashdot, people don't talk without reason.
Re:Area 51 is a hoax by the goverment (Score:3, Funny)
Re:Area 51 is a hoax by the goverment (Score:5, Insightful)
Re:Area 51 is a hoax by the goverment (Score:5, Informative)
I believe the military installation commonly known as Area 51 is actually an advanced aircraft development center, where they developed craft ranging from the old U2 spy plane to the F-117 stealth fighter.
Actually, both the U2 and the F-117 were developed at Lockheed's Skunk Works [lmaeronautics.com] plant in Palmdale CA. A lot of information can be found in Skunk Works [amazon.com], a memoir by the guy who ran the place during the F-117 development. He also discusses where some of the testing took place in the book, and if I recall correctly most of it was (for the obvious reasons) well-known radar testing ranges.
Now, for all we know, Area 51 still could be an advanced aircraft development center. If they retired the SR-71 (also a Skunk Works Project) and allowed the F-117 to become public before it was absolutely neccessary, then what do they have that they aren't talking about?
Re:Area 51 is a hoax by the goverment (Score:3, Insightful)
Whoops. A little googling says that Groom Lake is part of Area 51, and IIRC a lot of the testing did take place at Groom Lake. So, the development wasn't there, but some or all of the testing would have been.
I recall (Score:3, Informative)
Re:Area 51 is a hoax by the goverment (Score:5, Funny)
Student: What about the ethics of things like government cover-ups, and hiding the truth from the public
Teacher:
Student:
Teacher:
Student:
Re:Area 51 is a hoax by the goverment (Score:5, Informative)
Re:Area 51 is a hoax by the goverment (Score:5, Funny)
The declassifications of the location of the development of those aircraft were simply misinformation.
There is no Area 51 and no research of any kind goes on here. I mean there.
Re:Area 51 is a hoax by the goverment (Score:3, Insightful)
more probably they just do some research there nowadays that's just labeled secret for some reason or another..
of course all the ufo crap is just crap, but that doesn't mean they don't have research projects that are 'secret' from public eyes(a lot of this obviously high tech stuff, prototype testing and alike that to some morons might seem like certain proof of ufos).
what's the point in having a huge decoy, just to feed the tourism in the nearby cities??
Re:Area 51 is a hoax by the goverment (Score:4, Interesting)
It's pretty well known that it an aircraft testing facility. Probably some really neat stuff under wraps there but I doubt that any alien testing is going on there.
It seems to me that the government has gone soft though. I expect that years ago these people would have simply ended up missing. Bodily harm is a wonderful deterrant. These guys are really lucky they're not classifying them as terrorists.
The stuff that's there is classified. We don't have any viable reason to snoop around there. Our government (all governments) have stuff that they need to do in secret. If we don't like it that's really too bad. There's enough bad stuff going on around us in plain sight that we should be looking in to and raising hell about.
Re:Area 51 is a hoax by the goverment (Score:5, Funny)
Re:Area 51 is a hoax by the goverment (Score:5, Interesting)
This was on my way to Roswell, NM, home of the purported UFO crash site. I was living in San Diego and this girl I was seeing somehow got tickets to a place called the "corn ranch" (think that was it) - they looked like concert tickets. Anyway, once a year (this was July 4th weekend), they open up the ranch to interested parties. When I went in 97, a couple had bought the ranch without knowing what occured there (according to the couple, who led the field trip). Once they found out the legend, they opened it up as a tourist trap.
The crash site itself was aganist a small cliff - seems the saucer came down, impacted just at the bottom of the cliff, and bounced - 15 miles according to local legend. The Federales came and investigated and started to shush things up - they apparently drove the 15 miles to its final resting place, grabbed the saucer, and then the veil of mystery begins. How true or not this is is anyone's guess. I offer my own impressions merely because I don't think a lot of people have been there. BTW - Roswell is a largish town, but certainly not a city. Mebbe comparable in size to Winchester, VA for those who have been there. They of course have alien tourist crap as far as the eye can see, and it's fair share of alien nutjobs.
... or so the aliens would have you believe! (Score:4, Informative)
Re:... or so the aliens would have you believe! (Score:3, Interesting)
My guess is that they're conducting experiments and tests on areas they don't want the public to see (WMDs, biological/chemical warfare, etc.) Conspiracy theorists take the tight security and wrap it around inplausable stories, which the government probably doesn't mind (better having the crackpots think they know what's going on than important people ACTUALLY knowing what's going on).
Re:... or so the aliens would have you believe! (Score:4, Funny)
Re:... or so the aliens would have you believe! (Score:5, Informative)
There were several civilian employees that worked there and they became ill. They sued the government due to what they said were illnesses resulting from EPA violations (burning toxic chemicals). Apparently all the experimental stuff they have been doing has some nasty bi-products. They were running out of storage room so naturally they just burnt it. Apparently if a base doesn't exist, it is free from abiding by EPA regulations. That is a whole topic for another discussion though.
To make a long story short, they weren't allowed to sue because officially the base didn't exist. I do not know the final outcome of the case since the base has been acknowledged.
If they were handling toxic stuff there, it is possible that they will continue to guard it even if it isn't used anymore to prevent hapless curious seekers from exposing themselves to lethal substances.
Re:... or so the aliens would have you believe! (Score:5, Interesting)
http://www.whitehouse.gov/news/releases/2003/09/2
Re:... or so the aliens would have you believe! (Score:4, Interesting)
Actually, whether a base officially exists or not, it is usually exempt from EPA regulations. That's one of the problems that some cities (San Antonio, Austin, etc...) are having redeveloping old military bases into high-tech centers, airports, and whatnot. After the military closes the base, and the civilians go in to redevlop, there's all sorts of nasty crap left over in the ground because the military is exempt from many EPA regulations.
But don't blame the military, blame your representatives in Congress. They love exemptions, and have even exempted themselves from many federal laws, like labor laws, ADA, and others.
Re:... or so the aliens would have you believe! (Score:4, Informative)
There's a History Channel program that runs periodically about this.
Cue X-files theme (Score:5, Funny)
Upon their arrival, hundreds of vents opened up and millions of alien-virus infected bees immediately started swarming around them...
Oops, wait, sorry... wrong movie.
Listen (Score:3, Funny)
Hast thou learned nothing from the x-files?...
Agreed. (Score:5, Insightful)
At a tangent - whatever happened to Bob Lazar?
Re:Agreed. (Score:5, Informative)
In case you didn't know, there is an excellent search engine called Google [google.com] which gives you the answer. Just search for groom lake satellite pictures [google.com] and you'll get this [fas.org] as your first hit.
Re:Agreed. (Score:4, Informative)
A bunch of buildings and runways.
Terraserver, FAS, even a simple image search on Google all show recent, relatively hi-res pics.
Hmmm... (Score:5, Funny)
* GPS coordinates are mapped
* Public land (hey, the taxpayers _pay_ for it)
* Who knows what goodies are at each site to be traded
Sounds like a good place for some geocaching [geocaching.com] to me!
You forgot........ (Score:5, Funny)
*Armed patrols
So he removed one? (Score:4, Interesting)
Re:So he removed one? (Score:4, Insightful)
Re:So he removed one? (Score:4, Informative)
Lastly they never even charged him with stealing a device. They charged him with interfering with the devices, and if that would have gone to court he would have most definately been found guilty because he documented the whole process. However, the government promised to let those charges go if he promised to return or pay for the one that they thought he stole. It was his choice to agree to that plea bargain, or face charges in court, and he made it out of his own free will.
There is an argument to be made as to whether the government should be allowed to have these devices on public land, and whether interfering with these devices should be federal offense of this magnitude, but to say that due process was violated is just plain ignorant.
They took down the web site too! (Score:4, Funny)
Article Text (Score:3, Informative)
Area 51 hackers dig up trouble
By Kevin Poulsen, SecurityFocus May 25 2004 1:03PM
To the Area 51 buffs who travel to the Nevada desert in the hopes of catching a glimpse of unexplained lights in the sky or to bask in the mythic allure of the region, 58-year-old Chuck Clark is almost as much a part of the local color as the Black Mailbox.
A resident of tiny Rachel,
Area 51 does now exist (Score:5, Interesting)
Supposedly, the reason for the abandoning of the base was because the radiation from atomic tests wasn't going the "China Syndrome" way, back into the earth, but coming back up (area 51 was the 51st grid on a map used for nuke testing).
I haven't followed it for a while, but last I heard, the experts were pointing at Arizona and New Mexico as the new locations for many, mini, Area 51s.
Re:Area 51 does now exist (Score:4, Interesting)
P.S. As for the "maps and photos" people are googling up, well, l-o-l, but the DoD knows how to make a deal with anyone in the satellite geometrology biz to crock the data for certain coordinates to alter or erase things. I personally know of two other actual places where you can walk up to the fence and see the vast array of constructed objects of clearly governmental design that have (a) never shown up on a map on paper or electronically and, (b) don't show up on any satellite photo, either. Neither facility is likely to be a total secret, given the light perimeter security (one has a public highway splitting it in two), but they're clearly not advertising them for obviosly good reason (so I won't, either). Now Area 51 is a good distraction. Keep the nutbars chasing what they can "uncover with enough effort" and away from active facilities.
Those Bastards! (Score:4, Funny)
"If you or I accidentally kick one of these hidden transmitters, should the feds be able to seize our Macintosh and photos of Aunt Betty?"
They took his Macintosh?!? Those bastards!
It's a military base. (Score:5, Insightful)
oooo....But it's Area51! Obviously they are hiding something behind those sensors.
Ha. If there ever was anything alien there (highly doubtful), it's long since been moved. Hangar 18, maybe?
Re:It's a military base. (Score:5, Funny)
oooo....But it's Area51! Obviously they are hiding something behind those sensors. Ha. If there ever was anything alien there (highly doubtful), it's long since been moved. Hangar 18, maybe?
They use sensors almost exactly like those on the US/Mexico border. I guess we are hiding something behind those sensors =) I bet there is aliens on the other side!
Re:It's a military base. (Score:5, Informative)
At least according to the story submission (we all know what THAT is worth around here, roughly jack, but I can't load TFA) they were not trying to get onto the base. They were on public lands surrounding the base.
Television Special (Score:5, Interesting)
A private investigator was hired to watch the airport in Las Vegas and he observed which cars came and went on a frequent basis. He was eventually able to deduce which cars' owner were spending the day at Area 51.
At that point, it became a simple matter of just following the cars to a plush neighborhood. When he went to knock on the door and asked about Area 51, they said "no comment" and shut the door in his face. One would think that just mentioning Area 51 would be enough to inspire curosity from the non-involved.
An once-insider agreed to secretly meet with them doing the whole inside-a-hotel with blured-face and altered-voice routine. He examined maps and photos and said they were accurate. He also said that there were no UFOs at Area 51, and that the big secret was the abusive politics and unsafe worker conditions.
Guess Area 51 scooby gang missed the television special on S4, where the anti-gravity [unmuseum.org] from borrowed UFOs go on.
It does so officially exist. (Score:4, Insightful)
Not a lot of sympathy (Score:5, Insightful)
Now, granted he did rebury the devices, and granted, they were in the public park, not Area 51 itself, but it's not hard for the average person to see why this is a bad idea. There's a lot of stuff in "public" areas you're not allowed to monkey with. If a public park provided restrooms with those annoying motion-sensor faucets, does anyone think they would be within their rights to repeatedly take them apart?
Sure, there is a worry in this case about the government monitoring private citizens in a public place, but "approach" sensors invade privacy a lot less than swarms of armed guards peering through binoculars from the fenceline 24x7.
In short, this guy crossed the line. I understand being intrigued, and even outraged by these devices, but making a map is one thing, and once he figured out what the devices were he never should have touched them.
(Just had a scary thought on preview: what if the odd buried device he found had turned out to be a errant landmine? Of course it's massively criminal for it to be there, but there is a reason you don't got poking unknown military hardware...)
Re:Not a lot of sympathy (Score:5, Insightful)
Gitmo, Area 51, what's the difference? (Score:5, Funny)
Area 51 is probably just another detention camp where alien terrorists are being tortured^Wquestioned. Govt. denies the existence of this camp to protect the red cross inspectors from the awful sight of ugly aliens nursing their greenish wounds. Ever seen an alien with sleep deprivation? Uh oh...
Idiots... (Score:5, Funny)
If you absolutely, positively must be raided today - illegally enter a restricted area.
I mean, come on, you know they're motion sensors - what did you think would happen?
-Adam
Before the UFO nuts come out .... (Score:5, Informative)
There is no denying that there is much about the place kept under wraps, but the crazy UFO stories need to come to an end.
Sunny Dubey
Sensor Photos (Score:3, Informative)
Area 51 is exempt from EPA regs. (Score:5, Informative)
http://www.whitehouse.gov/news/releases/2002/09/2
Is this shady journalism? (Score:5, Interesting)
Some real information (Score:5, Informative)
"Another area of interest is the EG&G terminal on the Northwest corner of McCarran International Airport. Every weekday morning, about 500 people arrive at the guarded terminal with one destination, Groom Lake. When I was in Las Vegas observing the activity of the EG&G terminal, I counted six EG&G owned 737-200s. The aircraft are easily identifiable; they are white with a red strip running the total length of the plane. They fly out to Groom Lake about every half hour in the morning but things slow down in the afternoon with about two to three aircraft always sitting outside. Starting in the late afternoon (I noticed one coming in at 2:30 PM), the 737s start coming back to Las Vegas. At about 6:00, all of the aircraft (6 of which I counted, there could be more) were back to the EG&G facility for the night. Below are the photos that I took when I was out to Groom Lake and observing the EG&G terminal." From sr-71.org [sr-71.org], and a picture here [sr-71.org].
Also for the "new" Area 51, Popular Mechanics had an article a long time ago that is located here [popularmechanics.com].
Occam's Razor (Score:5, Insightful)
Probably that they're tired of a bunch of crazy conspiracy theorists trying to get a photo of the "aliens" on the base. The idea that Area 51 is a government hoax is ridiculous. Anyone who works or has worked for the US Federal Gov't knows the insane levels of bureacracy that you have to deal with on a daily basis, and you don't get thinking anywhere near that creative from the federal government.
Let's stop making such a hugely asinine deal about this. Get out of your basement and stop wearing your x-files t-shirts around.
Re:Occam's Razor (Score:5, Insightful)
Bzzzzt! Occam's Razor [skepdic.com] is better put like this: If you have two or more competing theories that explain things equally well then choose the simpler. In other words, don't add extraneous detail.
Just choosing the simplest explanation isn't the best way to go about things.
Re:Occam's Razor (Score:4, Funny)
Well, at least he didn't disappear... (Score:3, Insightful)
Legal Reform (Score:5, Interesting)
For instance in this case the government has *every* encouragment to file suit against this guy even if they have no evidence. The threat of prison time is scary enough that any normal person will take a plea agreement accomplishing what the government really wants, stopping them from investigating area 51 (it would not surprise me at all if part of his probhation is not to even passively map the sensors, or even go close to area 51). The plea bargain allows the government to exercise considerable power by the threat of legal action without any real chance of court review.
Moreover, as far as I'm concerned giving someone a deal for pleading guilty should be a violation of the 5th ammendment. After all a plea bargain is a reduced sentence in return for not insisting on your innocence. Or put another way in the presence of a plea offer there is a penalty for insisting on your innocence. Sure it isn't technically punishing someone for refusing to incriminate themselves but this is certainly within the spirit of the ammendment, if the implicit privacy argument is considered a valid constitutional principle than this sort of broad interpratation of the 5th is perfectly reasonable as well. I really can't see any pragmatic difference between a law which penalizes someone for not testifying to their guilt (which presumably could only apply if the individual was convicted) and a general practice of giving significantly reduced sentences in return for the admisson of guilt.
Some people will protest that my position would rob the judicial system of discretion. Not at all, judges would still have plenty of discretion to give a light sentence. The change would just stop penalizing individuals for insisting on innocence. I also think it is only because upper class white kids always recieve plea bargains in drug cases (while poor black ones often don't) that the public is willing to stand for things like mandatory minimums and extreme drug sentences. I doubt most of the prosecutors are overtly racist but many people's gut reaction to seeing a well dressed white kid busted for drugs is a good kid who screwed up while a black kid in baggy pants and so forth is far more likely to be thought of as a bad person. Sure, the problem will still exist in sentencing but at least the system will be a little better and more open (it is easier to see that a judge is racially biased in his deciscions because everything is public record while often the surrounding facts to a plea bargain aren't so publicly accesible).
Area 51? (Score:5, Funny)
All those people being flown in an out are CmdrTaco's chefs.
As for President Bush signing an excemption for waste disposal.......well, I'll leave that to your imagination.
Sensors nothing new or unusual (Score:5, Interesting)
I would have been pissed if some yahoo started messing with them, too. After all, they are there to ensure that no one vandalizes the equipment or gets fried by the 21,500 volts that exist across the base insulator of the antenna. We were most afraid of some BASE jumper getting killed while trying to climb the tower. In LORAN the whole tower is "hot" instead of a small radiator at the top.
And if they broke one, I'd have to fix it.
Re:Sensors nothing new or unusual (Score:4, Informative)
Fallon, NV (master)
George, WA (yes, that's a real town)
Middletown, CA
Searchlight, NV
Ask any pilot or oceangoing navigator, it's really cool tech for its time.
Here's [sunysb.edu] some info on how it works
Re:No name? (Score:5, Interesting)
It also doesn't matter if the DOD name was on it or not, it doesn't belong to you, so why take it? Basic theft.
Re:No name? (Score:3, Interesting)
No offense, but go back to basic civics.
The government is not "owned" by the people. The representatives in government are elected by the populace, all save the President, who is elected by the Electoral College, and only the Electoral College (the popular vote, in the long run, means dick in the Presidential election).
The government owns its own property, the government owns its own buildings. I'm sure that in a communal sen
Re:*Puts on the tin foil hat* (Score:3, Funny)
How dare you think for yourself!!!
You're both missing the point (Score:5, Insightful)
It's logical that if they publish this in the USA, then Osama is going to read all bout it the same day. It's not that regular people like us can't know about it, it's that us not knowing about it is the only way to guarantee that Osama won't know either.
They have full right to do this in the name of security, and it is also their duty to judge what information may be released. Remember, if they release something which allows Osama to level New York tomorrow (i.e. "suitcase thermonuclear bomb for $100 HOWTO"), it's THEIR ass on the line.
And just to drive the argument home: Foreign spies would be out of work if stuff like that was public. What's the harm? Why do you think other countries spend so much money on intelligence, if this info isn't crucial to security?
Re:Why would anyone want to trespass there (Score:4, Funny)
Not ever again...I'll tell you *that*.
If one extends this thinking. . . (Score:4, Interesting)
"Oooh. Digital paper." "Oooh. Bigger hard drives." "Oooh. Internal combustion."
This stuff is only impressive in the way that withheld candies are impressive to children. To pretend that we are actually pushing the boundaries of human knowledge and capability with any of this crap is nothing short of willfully stupid.
"Yeah? So what?" --Some might ask. "We know this is how it is, but there's national security to consider."
Er. . . Well, no, that's a very thin excuse. This goes far beyond secret planes which fly faster. Technological advance has happened in areas and directions which go amazingly far beyond a simple question of keeping the better airplanes out of the hands of the commies. (Which in itself is an incredibly stupid concept which again, everybody on the planet plays along with.)
The war in Iraq is an excellent example.
Saddam and his forces could have been removed with very few soldiers with much greater efficiency and cleanliness than was done. The kind of technology available and in use today makes it possible to shut down a city or a stronghold, walk in and murder or abduct the people you want to murder or abduct with ease and simplicity. The only reason to commit giant forces with archaic weapons and broken, (and some would say, nonexistent) tactics to a giant overseas ground war is this. .
To create a huge, infernal endless war designed to kill millions of people and absorb billions of dollars in goods. --There is a LOT of money and power to be had from big messy wars. Understanding how this is true and where the power comes from and goes to, who it benefits and why, is the first step to grasping how the real world works.
Consider this. .
One of the other directions military research has gone in has been toward that of mind control and mood altering. In fact, this could easily be considered the holy grail of military science; when you can control a population, then the need for guns and tanks is instantly nullified. --And anybody who has any level of competency in research, and who has the courage to look at frightening possibilities rather than seek comfort in ridiculing others while avoiding the pain of being ridiculed themselves, (and geeks have strong sore spots regarding this given their experiences through life; and isn't it curious that those most able to see through the veil are also those targeted with some of the most deliberate and cruel social programming?) --Anybody who knows how to question and has the balls to do so, knows that the holy grail of mind control was discovered long ago, and is widely implemented today across all strata of society in many different forms.
Secret planes that go fast?
The military industrial complex, (to use an old but accurate term), has more than secret planes in its bat belt!
The 'other' effects of cell phones upon the human brain and cognitive function were not only well understood, but were deliberately designed and were the primary reason for the proliferation of the wireless technology. --And population control through EM is only one way; combined with chemicals in our food, the direct psychological programming in advertising, music, television and movies -through all strata of media- combine to provide a means of near total control of humanity.
Many of you laugh. Would it be mind control if you feel that knee-jerk desire?