Building Better Spam 298
henbane writes "Cringely is plugging a new method of advertising from Dr. Jim Kowalick and Mario Fantoni. Their book entitled 'E-Mailing Your Way to Sales With
the Taguchi Approach' is out in the autumn. What could be worse than a method which increases the returns on spam?"
What could be worse... (Score:5, Funny)
The return of Yoko Ono?
Re:What could be worse... (Score:2, Funny)
Re:What could be worse... (Score:3, Funny)
wishful thinking (Score:3, Insightful)
more returns == buckets more spam
From a supply/demand standpoint, a larger pie will mean more people trying for it. All we need is one spammer out there who decided to get in because of the higher rates, and the total spam increases. I doubt any of the others will simply be happy with their current levels of penis pump sales; there could always be more.
Re:What could be worse... (Score:5, Funny)
Naked.
Re:What could be worse... (Score:3, Funny)
And petrified.
Re:What could be worse... (Score:3, Funny)
Naked.
And petrified.
With hot grits
Re:What could be worse... (Score:2)
Re:What could be worse... (Score:2)
The return of Yoko Ono?
I was going to say a bear holding a shark.
Re:What could be worse... (Score:5, Informative)
The title of the Slashdot article is misleading.
Spam University (Score:2)
Welcome to Spam University, the world's top-rated educational institution for the growing spam industry.
Are you tired of your dead-end job? Want to make some big-time cash without actually working? Earn the money you deserve in the exciting and fast-growing spam industry.
Re:Spam University (Score:2)
Great stuff. Go there [j-walk.com].
Re:What could be worse... (Score:2)
That's the #1 reason I think spam doesn't do well - the e-mails are downright unintelligable.
Re:What could be worse... (Score:3, Funny)
If only I had a mortgage.
Mmmm.. Spam... (Score:2, Funny)
"Building Better Spam"
Less pork fat.
Coarser grinding.
More spices.
better spam! (Score:2, Funny)
With the current cost of SPAM (Score:5, Insightful)
Kjella
Re:With the current cost of SPAM (Score:5, Interesting)
Or in your analogy, they are still hitting as many people with their better carpet bomb, but sustain more fatalities.
Re:With the current cost of SPAM (Score:2)
so, come early next year, i should have a medicine cabinet full of viagra, and a closet full of penis pumps? (disclaimer: i haven't been convinced as of yet why i require either.)
or, do they play better on how to not get marked 13.5 - Spam , by Spam Assassin...
Better Spam...oxymoron (Score:5, Funny)
What gives?
M
ADV: This is so unbelievable! ~~~234 (Score:4, Funny)
(*note: "all your desires" is defined as "an e-mailed receipt** showing you paid $19.95 for penis enlargement.)
(**note: by "e-mailed receipt", we mean e-mailed to all your friends, relatives, and co-workers.)
Re:Better Spam...oxymoron (Score:3, Funny)
In my observations, you need to achieve goal (3) first. This will lead to goal (2), which in turn will generally result in goal (1).
Of course, YMMV.
It could be worse... (Score:2)
What could be worse than a method which increases the returns on spam?
A method which increases the return on spam and but not the size of anyone's penis, Nigerian bank account, or breasts.
What does this have to do with spam? (Score:5, Informative)
Re:What does this have to do with spam? (Score:2)
Re:What does this have to do with spam? (Score:2)
Annoying shit
Stuff for sale
There's some annoying shit out there for sale, and some is just scamming, like the Nigerian letters.
Re:What does this have to do with spam? (Score:5, Insightful)
Thank you. That's exactly what I was about to say. I'll be the first to pull the trigger when we get the spammers against the wall, but just because it's email marketing doesn't make it spam. I get plenty of marketing mail for games, telescope equipment, and other stuff I'm actually interested in because I opted in to the lists after reviewing their policies on sharing my address and confirming that they wouldn't. This prevailing idea that every commercial use of email is spam is raving nonsense. It is sad that the spammers have managed to so thoroughly hijack people's perception of what can be a useful marketing vector.
Re:What does this have to do with spam? (Score:2, Informative)
I definitely second your comment there. This process looks like it's built for efficiency and a good design process, and could be applied to almost any field of engineering or problem solving.
Marketing here in the U.S. has definitely become an evil, throat-cutting industry, but if someone can prevail with simple, effective ads that get to the point and don't leave consumers confused and disgusted, I think that would be a win for us all.
Of course, as human nature would have it, the disgusting, false
What does this have to do with email? (Score:2)
Re:What does this have to do with spam? (Score:2)
commercials, billboards, signs, ads in magazines, product placement in films and video games, etc. doesn't count, since it's not direct.
At the least... (Score:4, Interesting)
About a 99% reduction in spam = easy (Score:2)
Re:About a 99% reduction in spam = easy (Score:2)
That was HTML and BODY between less than and greater than signs.
Evil plans (Score:5, Funny)
What could be worse than a method which increases the returns on spam?
Set someone's desktop picture and home page to be the goatse.cx guy. Truly evil, but it helped me train people to log off their machines when they weren't at their desks.
Re:Evil plans (Score:2)
Re:Evil plans (Score:2)
Re:Evil plans (Score:2)
We used to have TONS of fun on the Sun Xterminals we each used to have on our desks. If you left yours unlocked, you were in for bad stuff. Examples:
rsh into another server, and set up a cron job to email that person at a certain time every day. They would get an email from themself every day at the same time. We spoofed it so that
Never ascribe to malice... (Score:2)
mkdir
mkdir
mkdir
mv *
If you want to be that tiny bit more nasty you might change those to "...\ ".
Not that I'd ever do anything like that myself.
Re:Never ascribe to malice... (Score:2)
Left Logged In (Score:2)
But a prompt like :
"I left myself logged in and some idiot came around and changed my prompt to this long and stupid thing here. \nI cant imagine why anyone would do such a mean thing anyway. \nIt is very annoying indeed and I should probably remember not to leave myself logged in again so that it cant happen to me
Worse than a return on SPAM... (Score:3, Insightful)
Would be the advent of Interactive TV that works so Joe Sixpack can make the old WebTV crowd look smart, who in turn made us appreciate the AOLers.
SPAM is an issue, don't get me wrong. But that is why I have an address on the internet and an address my mates use. SPAM on one is high, SPAM on the other is zero.
This smacks as another "How to get rich like me" book where the real book should have only one page
"Write book to sell to suckers who believe this is special"
And finally, worse than SPAM would be the ability of goverments or companies to monitor your email to check you out and profile you.... but then that already happens, but as we don't see it we don't complain.
SPAM is a pain in the arse, its getting worse, but its still easier to do email now than it was 15 years ago, when SPAM didn't really exist.
Matter of taste (Score:3, Funny)
What could be worse than a method which increases the returns on spam?
The choice is yours...
-1 troll (Score:2)
I'm not at all convinced this is a bad thing. If this can tell them that short, spartan ads are more effective than long, graphics-heavy ones, it could probably tell them that a huge, untargetted spam campaign is a waste of money.
Summary (Score:2)
Taguchi's objective is robust design, which means building a product, system, or process that works well even in the presence of degrading influences. That means products that deliver value without breaking and services that are enduring while being as simple as possible. Taguchi first determines the control factors that go into designing a product, their interdependencies, then generates an orthogonal array specifying the number of experiments required to find the optimal solution. [....]
That's when Ko
Taguchi Method (Score:5, Informative)
For those of you interested on learning Taguchi method. Here's a good intro [isixsigma.com].
Microsoft Accelerator for Six Sigma (Score:3, Informative)
Microsoft has a new product called the "Microsoft Accelerator for Six Sigma" [microsoft.com]:
Microsoft Accelerator for Six Sigma is an integrated set of products and services customized for Six Sigma practitioners. The accelerator can help Six Sigma project teams more effectively manage a large number of projects, more easily track their financial impact, optimize and track resources, and electronically share knowledge gathered across the enterprise.
The article (Score:2)
I hope spammers read this... (Score:5, Insightful)
Because if they do, they'll figure out quickly that sending me spam won't increase their returns.
Spam isn't hated because it is targetted advertising; precisely the opposite - SPAM is hated because it is untargetted. That is, people get spam for things that they would never buy. Personally, I do get targetted emails - I've given my address to local retailers, and I get their specials via email. I'm not annoyed at them. I'm annoyed at the folks who spam me with stuff that I would never even remotely be interested in.
If making spammers more effective means that I won't get 50 emails a day for stuff I'll never buy, I'm all for it. If it means that I'll get discounts for stuff I do buy, then I won't mind too much.
Re:I hope spammers read this... (Score:2)
Re:I hope spammers read this... (Score:2)
And if this requires that information about you, including exactly what you purchase, is collected and sold on the open market, you don't mind?
W
Higher response rate is good for everyone (Score:3, Insightful)
But that's just wishful thinking.
at the limit it actually would be a good thing... (Score:4, Insightful)
Remember how back in the early days of internet advertising the starry eyed utopians talked about how you could use advanced techniques to send email advertisements only to those who were probably interested? Of course these were utopians we're talking about so they didn't bother doing even a back of the envelope calculation of the cost of finding the right 300 people to send your ad to versus just sending it to 10 million.
Unfortunately my understanding is the software referenced in cringely's article doesn't find the "right" people to spam, it just helps you punch up your ad copy. Which might double a spammers response rate from
The poster also slightly misrepresents cringely's article since cringely's not advocating the use of the software for spam but rather for auction listings.
Re:at the limit it actually would be a good thing. (Score:2)
Better yet (Score:2)
Re:at the limit it actually would be a good thing. (Score:2, Insightful)
Not so fast. It is my understanding that telemarketers and spammers often exploit those are not making rational decisions for themselves and are unable to say no. This is the legal version of taking candy from a baby.
Just because it is happening to someone else's addled grandmother or retarded cousin, shouldn't absolve any of us
Re:at the limit it actually would be a good thing. (Score:2)
Just because it is happening to someone else's addled grandmother or retarded cousin, shouldn't absolve any of us from our responsibility to protect the weak (and kill spammers dead).
There are already fair trade practices laws that cover these cases and these people still get spam. I was mo
you've got it backwards (Score:2)
They're tweaking the advertisement to make the product -seem- desireable to 100% of the people they advertise to. To get more people to 'follow up' on that advertisement and check out the product.
They aren't changing the product, or their advertising targets. They're finding the best way to present their product (word usage, images, stories, humor content, etc) to get as many people as possible to click t
Up the cost of spam, make spam more useful! (Score:2)
Right now I get junk mail at home and I get spam. The junk mail at home is somewhat more useful, since I'm occasionally interested in coupons from the local pizza place or a $20-off coupon to Linens & Things. SPAM on the other hand, since it costs nearly nothing to send can be almost entirely useless to almost entirely everyone. If costs of sending spam were raised (via hashcash or signatures or whatever) and forgeries were difficult (through SPF/DMP/whatever), then spammers would either go out of bu
What could be worse? (Score:2)
Taguchi WHO? (Score:2)
Anyone have a few choice pointers to just how Taguchi works? And if it's as geeky as the article says, how come it's rarely (never?) applied to software engineering?
He doesn't plug spamming (Score:5, Insightful)
DOE is how engineers make complex design decisions with as few experiments as possible. Mostly, he uses eBay as an example. He slightly mis-reads what Taguchi's DOE is about when he says that the old eBay data can be mined to re-create an orthogonal array. The whole point of DOE is a priori deciding what experiments to run, instead of the shot-gun approach used in the past. If you're gonna use data mining, then you don't really need Taguchi excpet for data reduction.
Personally, I recommended this approach to a high-volume eBay seller a couple years ago. He sells widgets with 3-4 different features (style, size, color), and uses a variety of terms to describe them (i.e. [stunning|beautiful|awesome] [rare|unique|one-of-a-kind]). Basically, he could run 16 or so tests using these various terms in the right combination, and determine which combinations were likely to work best. Ultimately, he didn't go down that route, but I'm pretty sure this is what Cringley was getting to before he got it confused w/ data mining.
Using data mining to do the Taguchi stuff is tough, b/c there are too many uncontrolled factors. I'm sure he'll get 100 letters on the topic from DOE experts and write a follow-up column next week.
As for spammers, I bet they start using DOE techniques, as they'll have to as fewe & fewer emails are getting through, making it a less profitable venture. Of course, legitimate advertisiers should be using the same techniques, and maybe they do. But DOE can be applied to any process, whether it is building cars, designing rockets, baking cookies, selling on eBay and, yes, sending spam.
Re:He doesn't plug spamming (Score:3, Informative)
Check out http://www.developsense.com/testing/PairwiseTestin g.html [developsense.com] for a better explanation, or anything else Google brings up for you.
Re:He doesn't plug spamming (Score:2)
Get rich quick! (Score:5, Insightful)
They claim their work can be applied to any product or service and any advertising medium. And what presently requires sitting for those couple of sessions with Kowalick and Fantoni (at a cost of about $8,800) will soon be reduced to a $499 interactive software program that will run on a PC, bringing all the benefits of Taguchi without requiring that a nerd be enclosed to make it work.
The vanilla wafer recipe, however, will remain a secret.
Now where have I seen THAT before?
A good thing, kinda (Score:2)
Basically this whole "breakthrough" is the realization that you can only fool so many people so many times with junk.
So although, this may reduce the amount of spam from more "legitimate" companies it won't make much of a dent in those with no marketing talent which is virtually every spammer.
Ben
Guerilla anti-marketing (Score:2)
A method that increases the return on spam may.... (Score:2, Insightful)
Short on the details, long on the BS (Score:3, Insightful)
That "last paragraph" was the only paragraph in the article the really talked about how this super black magic miracle method works. The article sounds like it was written by an MBA salesman trying to sell a product he doesn't really understand.
Taguchi and others -- do they really work? (Score:2)
I've always wondered whethere there is any evidence that the various methodologies bandied about as the greatest thing (such as Taguchi, QFM, TRIZ and the like) really do work. Does anyone have any links that point to an objective analysis of these approaches and what, if any, measurable benefit they can provide?
Thanks for any help. I have an intro book on TRIZ and while it sounds kind of interesting, I'd like more evidence that these new-age approaches really are an improvement over standard brainstormi
Did anyone else think this article sounded like... (Score:4, Insightful)
Worse... (Score:2)
What could be worse, oh how about giving them free exposure on Slashdot. I can save you the time of RTFA, just target aol users.
No problem...it's Taguchi (Score:2, Interesting)
If Taguchi works as well on spam we can just about forget another spam control methods!
Good Advertising is a Good Thing (Score:5, Insightful)
The problem with spam is that it is bad advertising, and advertisers have not yet really caught on about how much it infuriates their potential customer base. I think you'll find that companies really paying attention to what works will eventually de-emphasize spam in favor of less-intrusive methods.
Re:Good Advertising is a Good Thing (Score:2)
Slashdot a little shortsighted (Score:4, Interesting)
As an advertiser in search engines and other mediums, this would be a great way for me in increase my conversion rate. With a tool like ConversionLogic Keyword Tracking [conversionlogic.com] one can now use the methods described, and accurately measure the worth of a search or affiliate campaign based on different versions of ad copy produced.
But yes, spammers will be reading this with interest as well :-)
Liability? (Score:3, Interesting)
If spam is illegal is certain jurisdictions, wouldn't sale of this book in those jurisdictions be akin to inciting criminal behavior? What would be the financial liabilities of this? (Obviously IANAL.)
Re:Liability? (Score:3, Insightful)
Some simple rules to live buy (Score:5, Insightful)
2. Don't ever buy anything from telemarketers no matter how attractive the offer is. You must not reward their behavior.
3. Don't ever buy anything from door-to-door salesmen now matter how attractive the offer is. You must not reward their behavior.
Coming soon to a Spam near you... (Score:2)
The Taguchi method in user interface design? (Score:3, Insightful)
But I haven't really thought about the Taguchi method in non-lab settings before I read this article. How about applying it to user interface design? Gnome guys, are you listening?
(Maybe then we would find something better than "tabs" implemented in every single app...)
Re:The Taguchi method in user interface design? (Score:2)
Someone should really explore this. Designing to spec's that really mean something rather than just throw in everything including the kitchen sink could speed up design & development, improve the robustness of the product, and bring it to release faster.
Taguchi, eh? (Score:4, Interesting)
regulator circuit design which was optimized with
the Taguchi method and published in Electronic
Design magazine in the late 80s. The resistance
values in the circuit just looked fishy and his
analysis revealed that the circuit would not work.
The input voltage would track the output voltage.
The author had made certain the performance was
independent of the quality of the parts alright. A
fair argument could be made that the author did
not properly apply the Taguchi method. Bob's point was
the output has to depend on something. In this case, it
depended on a zener diode. The author thought he was
accomplishing something by making the output
independednt of the components. He didn't consider
that the circuit wouldn't work then. So be very
careful with this Taguchi stuff.
Oh no, smarter spammers (Score:2)
I'll tell you what's worse (Score:5, Insightful)
What could be worse than a method which increases the returns on spam?
Plugging the book for free on Slashdot by pretending it's a news item.
A bit trigger happy? (Score:5, Insightful)
From where I stand, I see the possibility that spam will decrease significantly. The Taguchi method could be the next big buzzword (or buzzphrase) and every spammer who wants to make more money (which would be all of them - why else would they sacrifice their ethics) might determine that there is some better method than bulk mailing to *@*.* with deceptive subject lines and random strings everywhere.
And even if that doesn't happen, the end result would be spam that isn't quite such a nuisance. Something that we might not mind as much. And if we're going to keep getting spam, I'd rather it not be the kind that offends, insults and annoys us.
on first reading (Score:3, Funny)
Then it hit me - what if all those little digital pets were WiFi enabled, and talking to each other? "Beep! Feed me! Beep! Go by a Ronco Turnip Twaddler!" Scary.
Spam as technology (Score:2, Interesting)
But consider the worm. There is some fairly cool technology in there to get them to work right. Right now that technology is being used mostly for evil. In the future the technology may mature to the point where we will wonder how we lived without it. As an example, instead of a slashdot web site, there could be slashdot worms t
Let's use it too. (Score:2)
Not necessarily bad... (Score:2)
Either of those are good things, if you ask me.
If it were effective... (Score:2)
Re:Whoa (Score:2)
Re:Whoa (Score:2)
another interesting japanese industry-related topic is Kaizen [everything2.com], which american businessmen tried to adopt at one point.
Re:Whoa (Score:3, Informative)
Giving him full credit for the quality of japanese cars, as Cringly did, was definately an overstatement though.
Re:Whoa (Score:2)
From the article: The company, which is based in Oregon House, is called MR2, for "Maximized Response Rate."
Mr in Japanese is the suffix "San". And "2" in Japanese is Ni.
So in Japanese their company is called Ni-san.
Re:Whoa (Score:2)
Did you have some kind of a point here?
Re:What could be worse? (Score:2, Funny)
Re:What could be worse? (Score:2)
stick shoved into eye?
I'd buy Insightless.
Re:Sue Advertisers (Score:4, Insightful)
Re:better spam (Score:2)
Re:better spam (Score:2)
You see, the amount of spam you recieve has nothing to do with success rates. The successrates of the actual 'spams' are more or less zero, but it doesnt matter, as spam is a con anyway.
Unfortunately, the con isnt on the recepient of the spam. The con is often on the sender of the spam. They have paid for spamware, adresslists or mass mailings. The ones who sell such services to gullible morons are the ones who actually make money off spam.
And those guys make more money the more morons they co