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AOL, MS & Yahoo Unite On Anti-Spam Initiative 316

dilaudid writes "FT.com has an article about AOL, Yahoo and MS putting aside their differences to combat spam. An AOL VP is quoted as saying "Our customers are telling us it is the number one problem with the internet." Their intended response is "narrowly-defined federal legislation aimed at so-called "king-pin" spammers" who send the bulk of the mails. "
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AOL, MS & Yahoo Unite On Anti-Spam Initiative

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  • by ChaoticChaos ( 603248 ) * <l3sr-v4cf&spamex,com> on Monday April 28, 2003 @10:05AM (#5824822)
    Finally! The Evil Empire has thought of something truly helpful to do with the 1 trillion dollars of cash. ;-)

    I am concerned that when all of this is said and done, only users of a Microsoft OS will not receive spam. ;-)
    • That's ok, with the windows users gone, there won't be any money in spam. It will just go away.
    • by fredrikj ( 629833 ) on Monday April 28, 2003 @10:28AM (#5825013) Homepage
      I am concerned that when all of this is said and done, only users of a Microsoft OS will not receive spam. ;-)

      That makes sense, actually. What if the "solution" would be to only accept and forward messages with a valid DRM certification?
    • 95% Coverage (Score:3, Insightful)

      by Flamesplash ( 469287 )
      I am concerned that when all of this is said and done, only users of a Microsoft OS will not receive spam. ;-)

      Doesn't that give us like 95% coverage? Sounds good to me :)
    • I am concerned that when all of this is said and done, only users of a Microsoft OS will not receive spam. ;-)

      Or you would have to at least register your details with them.

      I've often wondered why spam hasn't been dealt with along the lines of virus protection, i.e you pay a subscription to keep your records of spam locations up to date and thus able to block those offenders. Though I must admit, setting simple rules on the mail client has kept me largely free of the sifting through spam, and the potent
    • by BigBlockMopar ( 191202 ) on Monday April 28, 2003 @11:37AM (#5825606) Homepage

      Finally! The Evil Empire has thought of something truly helpful to do with the 1 trillion dollars of cash. ;-)

      Well, enough spammers seem to use IIS... Maybe they could "extend" the HTTP protocol to detect whether the referring website URL was received in a spam, and use it to disable the server... :)

      Until then, my little script works well enough:

      #!/bin/bash
      COUNT=0
      while [ $COUNT -lt 2000 ]; do
      lynx -dump $1?YOU_FILL_MY_MAILBOX_WITH_UNSOLICITED_CRAP_AND_I _WILL_DO_THE_SAME_TO_YOUR_WEBLOGS
      let COUNT=COUNT+1
      echo $COUNT
      done

      Note that my website includes a warning about what happens to unsolicited e-mail. Apparently, the "Order Viagra, Diet Pills & more with NO PRESCRIPTION!" people wanted to stress-test their IIS server at Beijing Telecom.

      284
      The page cannot be displayed
      There are too many people accessing the Web site at this time.

      Please try the following:
      * Click the [1]Refresh button, or try again later.
      * Open the home page, and then look for links to the information you want.
      HTTP 403.9 - Access Forbidden: Too many users are connected
      Internet Information Services
      Technical Information (for support personnel)
      * Background:
      This error can occur if the Web server is busy and cannot process your request due to heavy traffic.
      * More information:
      [2]Microsoft Support
      References
      1. javascript:location.reload()
      2. http://www.microsoft.com/ContentRedirec

      Poor spammer. But then again, I'm only fulfilling his wish...

  • by bwt ( 68845 ) on Monday April 28, 2003 @10:07AM (#5824832)
    You know your a scumbag when...

    Slashdotters support AOL and MS when they attempt to stomp on you.
  • by sporty ( 27564 ) on Monday April 28, 2003 @10:08AM (#5824844) Homepage
    Between this story, the Open Internet [slashdot.org] story, spammers sueing Journalists and what not...

    I may have to start a betting pool.. and maybe get some popcorn as the hilarity ensues on, "Internet Deathmatch".
  • Let's hope (Score:4, Interesting)

    by WCMI92 ( 592436 ) on Monday April 28, 2003 @10:08AM (#5824845) Homepage
    That this puts scumshit like Ralsky out of business... I'm getting sick and tired of receiving upwards of 100 spams a day.

    2 months ago less than 50% of my incoming e-mail was spam. Now it's running 65%.
    • Its a measure of how pervasive spam is that you say 0%. Personally, my spam has jumped from 5% to 60% in a year.
    • by raehl ( 609729 ) <raehl311.yahoo@com> on Monday April 28, 2003 @10:57AM (#5825241) Homepage
      The obvious problem here is that you're a social recluse and have not been increasing the number and quality of your relationships to keep pace with the number of people who want to sell you stuff. If you had, the percentage of your email that is spam would have remained the same or perhaps even decreased.

      Don't blame the spammers. Leave the house more.
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      Bernie Shifman will send you his resume! Bernie Shifman will not be stopped! Bernie Shifman conquer Shaq-Fu! Bernie Shifman has uber-leet Flash design [shifmanconsulting.com] skillz! You work for Bernie Shifman! Send your resume [mailto] to Bernie Shifman!
  • by beders ( 245558 ) on Monday April 28, 2003 @10:09AM (#5824851) Homepage
    Microsoft drop Windows, and decide to give all money away to Linux kernel developers.

    First a free internet and now this, do they realise that they're ment to be the bad guys?
  • Huh? (Score:5, Funny)

    by FrostedWheat ( 172733 ) on Monday April 28, 2003 @10:09AM (#5824856)
    ... federal legislation ...

    I feel better already.

    • ... federal legislation ...
      I feel better already.

      More to the point, what are American laws going to do to stop the spam I get?

      Most of the spam is sent from open relays in shitholes like Brazil and Japan. Most of it points to websites on hosting providers in China and Korea.

      You're not gonna tell me that some ulgy fuck like Alan Ralsky isn't gonna go and simply register a company offshore?

      His spamming organization can work offshore and hire another company to fulfill the orders in the USA. That way, th

  • by MondoMor ( 262881 ) on Monday April 28, 2003 @10:11AM (#5824867) Homepage Journal
    Dogs and cats, living together...

    [b]mass hysteria![/b]

    WTF. MS et al joining together to resist fundamental changes to the internet, and AOL moving to stop SPAM.

    What's next? The fall of communism?

  • by gelfling ( 6534 ) on Monday April 28, 2003 @10:12AM (#5824875) Homepage Journal
    ....And we want the government to force other people to allow us to do that.

    They are carriers & they could care less about spam other than the hardware demands the sheer volume of this stuff means for their investment cycle. If they could magically reduce their workload by 80% w/o losing one dime in revenue I swear they would turn out their children to do it.
  • by blakestah ( 91866 ) <blakestah@gmail.com> on Monday April 28, 2003 @10:13AM (#5824879) Homepage
    AOL is currently using censorship to try to solve their problem. Their customers want the ISP to stop spam, and AOL interprets this as a license to censor incoming mail for "spamness".

    It never occurred to them that perhaps the customer should decide what is and is not acceptable.

    This form of spam-filtering is very dangerous - when someone else decides for you who can and can not send you email.
    • by FyRE666 ( 263011 ) on Monday April 28, 2003 @10:24AM (#5824973) Homepage
      Well I believe all ISPs should offer two separate pop addresses for their customers. One would be totally open - free to spew all manner of sewage from the scumbags sending spam. The other would be filtered. Subscribers would be free to choose which they used.

      I'm guessing option 2 would see by far the most use. Hell, if the filter worked 90% of the time I'd use it at my ISP...
      • by Malc ( 1751 )
        Yahoo already tag 90% of the spam I receive at my Yahoo address. They place "X-YahooFilteredBulk: xxx.xxx.xxx.xxx" in the headers of the messages. This is the first thing I check for on my mail server. I'm happy to pay them $20/yr for that! The older version of SpamAssassin that ships with Debian Woody catches more than 50% of the spam that gets past Yahoo. I typically receive 10-20 spams a day, although I got 37 on one day last week.
      • Hell, if the filter worked 90% of the time I'd use it at my ISP...

        One word: Spamnix [spamnix.com].

        Out of the 25 or so spams I get every time I check my email, maybe one actually lands in my inbox.
    • This form of spam-filtering is very dangerous

      How, exactly? You criticize AOL for implementing systems to identify spam, and then you make an assertion that this is "dangerous".

      Precisely how is this dangerous?
    • by ajs ( 35943 )
      Yes they do, but censoring is not the problem. The problem is that AOL is segregating the Net.

      If AOL decides not to allow mail with the word "potatoe" in it, that's their problem and I'll let Mr. Quayle send all his mail encrypted to get past their stupidity if he wants to, or just get another ISP.

      The real problem is that AOL has decided that a large chunk of the valid mail sources in the world are, in fact, NOT valid mail providers! This means that vast numbers of AOL users are now not on the Internet-pr
    • Their customers _are_ deciding what is or is not acceptable; if you don't like it, get your email somewhere else. AOL is a bit special compared to most commodity ISPs, but it's still just one of many vendors. It's certainly easier to make an informed decision if the ISP publishes the techniques they're using to block spam, but if one of them doesn't, that may be part of your criteria for not choosing them. However, having said that, ....

      There are two fundamentally different things that ISPs can do with

  • Huh? (Score:5, Informative)

    by IAmRenegadeX ( 627910 ) on Monday April 28, 2003 @10:13AM (#5824883)
    Did you read the article (or even the /. blurb?)

    The groups said they were particularly looking for narrowly-defined federal legislation aimed at so-called "king-pin" spammers whom they believe are responsible for the largest volume and most pernicious of unwanted e-mails.

    They're looking to legislate the "spam kings" to death, not block mail from them for their collective subscribers. Funny, however, that they continute to ignore "black hole" lists that are actually quite good at deleting/preventing spam.
    • Re:Huh? (Score:5, Informative)

      by stratjakt ( 596332 ) on Monday April 28, 2003 @10:17AM (#5824920) Journal
      That's good. I dont want "black hole" lists at the ISP level.

      I dont want providers arbitrarily deciding that some IP block can no longer send me e-mail.

      Because then you wind up with some person/comittee with an agenda deciding that I can no longer get e-mail from, say, a group with an opposing point of view. If Bill Gates controlled the black hole list, maybe kernel.org shows up on it. If RMS controlled it, hotmail would show up on it.

      It's a bad system, wide open to abuse. Punish the criminals, don't hinder the internet.
      • Re:Huh? (Score:3, Insightful)

        I completely agree -- notice I didn't say "I wish they'd use the black hole lists," I just said they never mention them.

        Like you, I am glad there isn't a single source of record for "e-mail blocking", especially one that is controlled by a company or government shill.

        However, it'll be a cold day in hell when we're able to completely block what everyone thinks is spam...
        • Re:Huh? (Score:5, Informative)

          by rizzo ( 21697 ) <don@seilerEULER.us minus math_god> on Monday April 28, 2003 @10:35AM (#5825072) Homepage Journal
          Just another personal note on black hole lists. I thought they were the greatest thing since sliced bread until somehow my IP ended up on one. My web/email service is on a shared host. The host itself doesn't host any adult content, but the IP that it had recently acquired was listed in the same IP block as pretty much every adult/teen/kiddie porno site you can think of, and most that you can't think of. Ameritech subscribed to the blacklist and so I couldn't forward my domain mail to my ameritech.net account. It was a weekend from hell.
          • Re:Huh? (Score:3, Insightful)

            by eaolson ( 153849 )

            The host itself doesn't host any adult content, but the IP that it had recently acquired was listed in the same IP block as pretty much every adult/teen/kiddie porno site you can think of, and most that you can't think of.

            Then maybe you should move to an ISP that doesn't tolerate kiddie porn on their servers.

            Most of the serious blocklists (SBL, Spamcop, SPEWS) are quick to delist an IP once the spamming problem goes away. And some (SPEWS for example) don't even list an IP block until the ISP has been

  • by Joe the Lesser ( 533425 ) on Monday April 28, 2003 @10:14AM (#5824891) Homepage Journal
    Expensive Internet Access! Corporate Invincibility! Internet Community!

    With your powers combined, I am Captain Corporate!

    (chorus)
    Captain Corporate,
    he's our hero,
    gonna take spam down to zero!
  • by Anonymous Coward
    This has to be the millionth post I've read about spam on slashdot during the past few days. Anyone else sick of it?
  • by 91degrees ( 207121 ) on Monday April 28, 2003 @10:15AM (#5824901) Journal
    Two stories in a row about MS doing the right thing! I think this is all part of a cunning plan. We'll soon see stories like "MS demands the DMCA is repealed", "MS releases secure OS", "MS replaces Windows EULA with GPL".

    A short time later, after gaining the support of all the geeks in the world, we'll see "MS decides to take over and enslave the world", and there will no longer be any organised geek resistance to prevent this.
  • Exceptions (Score:4, Interesting)

    by SuperBanana ( 662181 ) on Monday April 28, 2003 @10:17AM (#5824918)
    Their intended response is "narrowly-defined federal legislation aimed at so-called "king-pin" spammers" who send the bulk of the mails. "

    Wait, lemme guess- that "narrowly-defined" definition of "spammer" will not include internet service providers advertising their services, nor companies the ISPs have paid to spam their subscribers?

    My grandmother got porno spam within 2-3 days of her MSN "internet appliance" getting set up, and it had a very unusual account name(with numbers in it, too)- no dictionary atttack hit this one. She hadn't even figured out how to surf the web yet. Wanna guess who sold out her email address? First 3 guesses don't count.

    • Re:Exceptions (Score:4, Insightful)

      by NanoGator ( 522640 ) on Monday April 28, 2003 @10:24AM (#5824977) Homepage Journal
      " Wanna guess who sold out her email address? First 3 guesses don't count. "

      How do you know her email address was even sold? Ever have a Hotmail address? It doesn't come because it's sold, the spam comes because of the brute force spam attacks on it.

      Why buy a list of email addresses when you can get millions of hits at *@msn.com?
      • Re:Exceptions (Score:3, Informative)

        by SuperBanana ( 662181 )
        How do you know her email address was even sold? Ever have a Hotmail address? It doesn't come because it's sold, the spam comes because of the brute force spam attacks on it.

        I know it's hard, but try and read through my entire post, and note this particular point I specifically mentioned:

        "it had a very unusual account name(with numbers in it, too)- no dictionary atttack hit this one"

        Next time, read the entire comment, okay? Shame on those of you who moderated him up; he didn't even bother to read th

        • Re:Exceptions (Score:2, Informative)

          by stratjakt ( 596332 )
          Don't be so sure.

          It doesnt have to be a common address to be brute forced.

          Spammers leave their bots running all day and all night, and they dont care if they get 7 billion bounced emails for 500,000 delivered. Especially when it comes to the big dog domains like msn.com, aol.com hotmail.com or comcast.net.
        • "know it's hard, but try and read through my entire post, and note this particular point I specifically mentioned:

          "it had a very unusual account name(with numbers in it, too)- no dictionary atttack hit this one""


          Take your own advice and read MY entire post.

          "Ever have a Hotmail address? It doesn't come because it's sold, the spam comes because of the brute force spam attacks on it."

          Further supported by this comment:

          "Why buy a list of email addresses when you can get millions of hits at *@msn.com? "
      • If you have an email address that is 10 digits/numbers long and isn't subject to a dictionary attack (ie. no real words) it is unlikely that some spammer is sending out 36^10 or 3e15 spam to hotmail in order to bruter force her email address.
    • by saintashi ( 669089 ) on Monday April 28, 2003 @10:29AM (#5825031)
      Wanna guess who sold out her email address?

      Since it couldn't possibly be those lovely people at MSN, I can only assume that it was you.

      I guess this is proof that there are people out there who would sell their own granny's email address... :)

    • Re:Exceptions (Score:5, Insightful)

      by Otter ( 3800 ) on Monday April 28, 2003 @10:34AM (#5825066) Journal
      Wait, lemme guess- that "narrowly-defined" definition of "spammer" will not include internet service providers advertising their services, nor companies the ISPs have paid to spam their subscribers?

      My primary email account has disappeared under an avalanche of bounces and blocks from some asshole spammer forging my domain name in everything he sends out. I'm job hunting now, and refuse to install some new untested filters that are liable to throw out something important. So I need to wade through hundreds of returned ads for streaming gay porn.

      If these companies can put a stop to the total scumbags, they can include a provision that their ads can be sent over the NSA's secret high-speed network. I'll still be grateful to them.

      My grandmother got porno spam within 2-3 days of her MSN "internet appliance" getting set up, and it had a very unusual account name(with numbers in it, too)- no dictionary atttack hit this one.

      Maybe, but my suspicion is that you underestimate the magnitude of dictionary attacks on common domains like that. Given millions of idiots, all MSN addresses are shallow.

    • I'm sure tI'm feeding a troll but...

      1) no-one cares about spam that comes from a valid email address - you can always reply and say 'no thanks', or block it and guarantee its blocked.

      2) your grandmother got hit with a bruite force attack - if you read the recent /. article about where spam comes from, the testers received emails to a@doamin.com, aa@domain.com, aaa@domain.com etc etc. So, she had an account with numbers in it - the spammers don't care - they set the email generator programs running and wal
    • Wait, lemme guess- that "narrowly-defined" definition of "spammer" will not include internet service providers advertising their services, nor companies the ISPs have paid to spam their subscribers?

      It also won't limit political parties from sending mass unsolicited emails. For obvious reasons, you'll never get legislation that in any way inconveniences political parties. Look how difficult it is to get campaign finance reform through; they will NEVER get campaign anti-spam bills through.
  • Great... (Score:5, Funny)

    by $0 31337 ( 225572 ) on Monday April 28, 2003 @10:18AM (#5824924) Homepage
    Now I suppose I can expect the following in my inbox:

    04/28/2003 sdogin@microsoft.com Join the fight against spam!
    04/28/2003 asgasg@microsoft.com Join the fight against spam!
    04/28/2003 dfjdfdsagsdg@aol.com Join the fight against spam!
    etc, etc, etc.
  • by Stiletto ( 12066 ) on Monday April 28, 2003 @10:20AM (#5824933)

    If the number one problem with the Internet is spam, then the number two problem is all the idiots who buy products from spammers and keep them in business.

    Spam will never stop. Just like junk snail-mail will never stop. The tiny percentage of below-freezing IQ's out there who fall for unsolicited "offers" are ruining it for everyone else.

  • by ackthpt ( 218170 ) * on Monday April 28, 2003 @10:21AM (#5824942) Homepage Journal
    Seems it must be a sign of a new quarter or spring or moon phase. Ultimately the only way to put a stop to spamming is a few civil trials (possibly criminal, too, wire fraud, etc.) and hang a few examples out to dry. I do believe quite a few spammers are the average schmuck who thinks they can make a few quick bucks. Bust them across the knuckles and others will get the message.

    Perhaps if these three got together and ran some decent television commercials which cut to the core of spam it would greatly reduce, i.e.

    Would you buy questionable medications from someone who solicits you from a forged email address?

    Would you consider giving your personal financial information to someone incapable of proper grammar or even good spelling?

    Would you visit a site alleged to contain pr0n/child pr0n knowing your visit may be tracked?

    (some percentage, like 100%) of spam is unsolicited, commits an act of trespassing, is made by people who have nothing of actual value to offer and is intent on defrauding you. Visit www.cauce.org for more information.

    Sadly, these companies will trumpet how spam costs billions of dollars, but a few million on public information awareness advertising is beyond them. Hell, I don't even see anti-spam public service annoucements on MSNBC or Yahoo. Smells like more ado about nothing.

    • (some percentage, like 100%) of spam is unsolicited,

      Its ALL unsolicited, thats why its called SPAM!.

    • Ultimately the only way to put a stop to spamming is a few civil trials (possibly criminal, too, wire fraud, etc.) and hang a few examples out to dry.

      This will be fun. The very first time this happens you can count on spammer advocacy appearing, probably right here on Slashdot. Someone will take the spammers point of view, wrap it up in government oppression garb, blame Ashcroft and the entire Internet "community" will be bitterly divided.

      We'll have blogs, advocacy sites and t-shirts! "Free Such-and-S
  • by jolyonr ( 560227 ) on Monday April 28, 2003 @10:22AM (#5824948) Homepage
    Great! After they've sorted out the SPAM problem maybe they can find out who the hell keeps filling my mailbox full of unwanted Internet CDs.
    . . Oh.

    • by Elbereth ( 58257 ) on Monday April 28, 2003 @10:55AM (#5825225) Journal
      You think getting the occasional CDROM from AOL is bad? Try getting 20 or 30 CDROMs from MSN, all at once. It happened to me about a week ago. I guess the post office got confused and delivered all the MSN CDROMs destined for my neighborhood to my house. It was in a bulk package, with my name and address on the top.

      At least I know the names of all the single women in my neighborhood now.
      • At least I know the names of all the single women in my neighborhood now.

        Dude! This is your chance. Get those MSN CDROMs together, and personally deliver them to all these women. Single women love a guy who shows up with an MSN CDROM! Just ring the doorbell and tell them about MSN's "advanced features", including "patented junk e-mail protection", "e-mail virus protection services", parental controls, "rich e-mail", and online bill pay. They'll melt like butter all over you.

        "I got fewer busy signals for
  • by burgburgburg ( 574866 ) <splisken06.email@com> on Monday April 28, 2003 @10:23AM (#5824963)
    will be able to craft a narrowly defined piece of federal legislation which will solely target the kingpin spammers. I believe that they can get together a disparate group of legislators to pass the bill into law while not altering it/watering it down. I believe that spammers will just stop in the face of this legislation and will find new forms of employment. And if some of them try to challenge the new legislation in the courts, I believe that the courts will rule fairly on their constitutionality. I believe that sheep have evolved super intelligence and are plotting to brutally murder every person wearing wool.
  • by Parsa ( 525963 ) on Monday April 28, 2003 @10:23AM (#5824965) Homepage
    "Our customers are telling us it is the number one problem with the internet."

    Well, if they think this is the number one problem with the Internet they really don't understand privacy issues and how it affects them.

  • by asv108 ( 141455 ) * <asvNO@SPAMivoss.com> on Monday April 28, 2003 @10:25AM (#5824979) Homepage Journal
    They are just going to mail 10,000 AOL CD's to each spammer "kingpin"..
  • Dumb and Dumber (Score:4, Interesting)

    by photon317 ( 208409 ) on Monday April 28, 2003 @10:27AM (#5824998)

    Spam can be solved very, very simply. Everyone with a brain cell knows this. People need to stfu and do it right. I'll outline the basic steps of one way to do it, there's many others equally simple and valid. Actually, in this outline I'll solve not only the problem of spam, but also the problem of adult content on the web and filtering it for children. Needless to say you can combine the two to stop porn spam too. Here goes:

    1) Set a technical standard for senders to classify emails in the header fields. Say, an X-header like "X-Mail-Classification: ". Give it three legal values: "UCE", "SCE", and "Personal". UCE is Spam, SCE is when you told a company explicitly that they could spam you (you really did visit their site and give them your address for future announcements or whatever), and Personal is anything else.

    2) Set a similar technical standard for rating the adultness of websites. Make an HTTP header field, call it "Content-Rating", with a range of values similar to modern cable TV ratings (first a rating like PG-13, R, etc... followed by WHY (R - Violence, X - Strong Sexual Content, etc..).

    3) Pass a bill in congress making it a legal requirement that all sites and emails MUST contain these headers, unless they fall in the "best" category (by that I mean, emails which actually fall in the Personal category are not required by law to state this, and websites which would have a G rating are not requried to state this). Failure to have a rating results in fines, having an obviously false rating (porn site rated PG, etc) results in even bigger fines - repeat offenses land you in a federal pound-me-in-the-ass prison.

    4) Obviously once the headers are well-defined, and prevalent because of the legal requirement, software vendors need to mod email clients and web browsers to recognize these headers, which is extremely trivial. The user can then block bad sites and trash bad emails automatically or do whatever else they wish. If something makes it through the system (unwanted porn, unwanted UCE), you've got a clear case that they failed to properly label it with headers, which violates the new law above and lands them with criminal fines.
    • Re:Dumb and Dumber (Score:5, Insightful)

      by dknight ( 202308 ) <damen@knightsOOO ... inus threevowels> on Monday April 28, 2003 @10:39AM (#5825099) Homepage Journal
      This works only assuming that all email/websites/etc... are within the US. I know we like to police the world, but even we couldnt pull THAT one off.
    • by unfortunateson ( 527551 ) on Monday April 28, 2003 @10:41AM (#5825111) Journal
      The spammers will claim they all fit in the personal communications requested by the recipient, and are not required to fill in all that rigamarole.

      And you're right back where you started from.

      No, the solution is to inform [sho.com] people that
      a) Your body parts aren't going to get bigger (bellies excluded)
      b) You really don't want to trust your finances -- even credit bailouts -- to people who'd SPAM you
      c) There are no dignitaries in Nigeria that have millions of dollars they need to launder into the US, and if they did, you'd be arrested
      d) There's no need to pay for porn. Go out into the big blue room and you could find someone real. Besides, there's enough free internet porn [google.com], just look.

      You get SPAM because it works. People buy this crap. If they didn't, the spammers would stop.
    • Re:Dumb and Dumber (Score:3, Informative)

      by krray ( 605395 )
      And this is the dumbest idea (IMHO) -- sorry.

      The spammers will continue to either highjack foreign servers (foreign to them at least :), steal end users bandwidth, so on and so forth -- and label it all "Personal".

      I'm right back to trying to figure out what is and is not really personal flagged as personal. Nothing will change.

      LAWS won't fix the problem -- how do I reach out and touch somebody in China that spammed me from the US? It's just easier to block them all.

      I've gone from trying to play nice to
  • by Dutchmaan ( 442553 ) on Monday April 28, 2003 @10:28AM (#5825016) Homepage
    When you get one set of institutions that pretend to work for the people fighting with another set of institutions that pretend to work for the people..

    We cheer and boo both at the same time... social schizophrenia ensues..

    OUCH! I HATE AND LOVE MYSELF THE GOVERNMENT AND THE CORPORATIONS!

    Someone pull the ripcord!

  • by Monoman ( 8745 ) on Monday April 28, 2003 @10:37AM (#5825088) Homepage
    * Use existing laws: I am sure there is more than enough laws already on the books that cover "fraudulant and egregious methods to disguise and misrepresent". We don't need laws specific to spam we should use generic laws that cover communications fraud.

    * Go after those that hire spammers too. If I contract someone to perform a service and I know their methods are not legal then I should be held liable too.

    * Don't depend on laws to fix everything. Fix the system!
  • by adzoox ( 615327 ) on Monday April 28, 2003 @10:40AM (#5825106) Journal
    I have had Yahoo mail for almost 9 years now. I was getting about 3-4 messages a day all the way up to 2001 when they started charging for premium services. Then an avalanche of SPAM hit. Now at 300+ a day.

    I do realize everyone's SPAM is at insane levels and SPAM has gone up in the last 3 quarters. That said, I have very intelligently and precisely made my 15 free filters and none of them work on Yahoo mail. Middle of last year, I decided to chunk down the money for the premium email account. I used up the free 35 extra filters pretty quick.

    It is my opinion that Yahoo allows junk mail, in fact, dumps it heavily on it's customers so that they will buy a premium service.

  • I just delete spam before reading my e-mail. Spam isn't that hard to detect.

    Re:your request From: acv235fv@hotmail.com SPAM!

    refinance lowest rates From: bob33010@aol.com SPAM!

    If everyone just ignores them and doesn't buy anything from the spammers, then it will dry up. Another favorite is to find their real e-mail address, usually from their form, or their link, and e-mail them 2.5MB from /dev/random. :-)
    • FYI - the problem with spam is not the day-to-day sanitation of it. It's the cost of processing it. Not to get into the aggregate costs of lost bandwidth, file storage, and each person having to empty their email boxes. For those who still have dial-ups and download quoatas, they're sure to be livid that their honestly purchased bandwidth being eaten away by traffic they didn't ask for and don't want, not to mention their time while its being downloaded just so they can spend more time deleting it.

      As the c

  • by allism ( 457899 ) <alice@harrison.gmail@com> on Monday April 28, 2003 @10:45AM (#5825131) Journal
    Don't let them fool you. This is not for the customer. This is so AOL, MSN, and Yahoo can save on bandwidth costs.

    Has anyone here REALLY considered not using e-mail ever again because of spam? Does anyone here REALLY believe spam is going to put an end to electronic communication?

    Forbidding certain companies from sending out mass e-mails could mean your mailing list is next. I am just as annoyed by spam as the next person (well, maybe not, since I seem to get a lot less than some people here complain about), but charging for or forbidding bulk e-mails will put a cramp in more peoples' style than just the spammers.
  • by dwheeler ( 321049 ) on Monday April 28, 2003 @10:56AM (#5825232) Homepage Journal
    Attacking the kingpins will probably have a very nice short-term effect. But will it really help long term? I doubt it. Instead, there will be new kingpins in countries outside their control, perhaps in places where it's still legal to crack into other computers. Also, there will be a gradual increase in spam from the large number of other spammers.We need techniques that work long-term.

    If you're interested in countering spam, please check these out:

    1. http://www.dwheeler.com/essays/stopspam.html [dwheeler.com] - essay about techniques to stop spam
    2. http://www.dwheeler.com/guarded-email [dwheeler.com] - a paper about Guarded Email, a challenge-response system that might really help.
  • Drug War Parallel (Score:5, Insightful)

    by limekiller4 ( 451497 ) on Monday April 28, 2003 @11:06AM (#5825349) Homepage
    This is kind of funny, the parallels between the spam wars and the so-called drug wars. I call say this because it is more appropriately labeled "war on some drugs." But that's another rant.

    But isn't it interesting that they (meaning AOL et al) are going after the big offenders and not, say, THEMSELVES? After all, they are analagous to the street-level pushers of the spam. The big spammers ("kingpins") are the ones who create the spam and are the nexus for it's origin. The product is then filtered down until it reaches the local ISP of the client/user and finally handed to the target -- the customer.

    You might object and say, "the difference between drugs and spam at this level is quite sharp because drug users want the drug. Spam receiptients do not." Well SOMEONE is buying. Spammers don't spam because they think their literature amounts to avant garde exercises in promotional haiku. They spam because someone pays them to. And someone pays them to because someone is buying. In other words, every nickel they spend on spam comes back to them dressed up as a dime. It's as simple as that. The only real difference between the two analogies when you consider it is that spam is less visible because of the inherant privacy and legality of spam. That's all. You still have a product, you still have a buyer and you still have a larger community that must deal with the fallout of that activity.

    However, this is the point at which the analogy breaks.

    The community normally goes after the street-level dealers and the users. Of course the dealers have little to lose because they're poor to begin with and there will always be someone to deal. Always. And users/buyers are always going to use/buy. So go after the source, right? This makes sense, right?

    So why are over half (55%) of all federal prisoners drug offenders [bop.gov]?

    This would be like Microsoft and AOL suing themselves half to death and prosecuting the recipients of the email when they purchased wares sold by spam. Never mind the fact that buying after seeing a spam isn't illegal. That's not the point. The point is that even if it were, it is an obviously flawed and ineffective model. It just doesn't work.
    • You might object and say, "the difference between drugs and spam at this level is quite sharp because drug users want the drug. Spam receiptients do not." Well SOMEONE is buying. Spammers don't spam because they think their literature amounts to avant garde exercises in promotional haiku. They spam because someone pays them to. And someone pays them to because someone is buying.

      Spammers (the successful ones, anyway) get their money from the sleaze artists who pay them to vomit out advertisements for their

  • Technical Pressure (Score:5, Insightful)

    by linuxwrangler ( 582055 ) on Monday April 28, 2003 @11:09AM (#5825382)
    One thing that the big ISPs could do is exert technical pressure to help deny spammers the ability to hide. I would love to see them reject all mail in which the HELO greeting is not fully qualified and resolvable (as required by the RFCs). Same thing everywhere else a domain appears in an SMTP conversation. This would force a mass cleanup of incorrectly configured mailservers and I would be able once again to include that as a requirement on my server.

    Although perhaps exceeding the requirements of the RFCs, they might also consider refusing mail if the HELO/EHLO does not resolve back to the connecting IP.

    In addition, they could publish via DNS info records or ?? the IPs of all their outbound mail servers (no MX won't work - that's only for inbound mail). It would be great to be able to bounce all mail "from" someone at yahoo/hotmail/aol/etc. unless the connection came from a mailserver associated with that email address (sure, for some people the mail may have been legitimately relayed before arriving at their site but that has never been the case for my servers).
  • by cybrthng ( 22291 ) on Monday April 28, 2003 @11:10AM (#5825386) Homepage Journal
    Come on!!!

    There is spam because the system is insecure. Force AUTH based SMTP and use SSL.

    Use RBL's, SpamCop and Spews to blacklist people who don't want to grow up and be secure! Big ISP's should do this, Cable & DSL providers should do this.

    With wireless tech i can login to anyways network and spam away as long as i'm behind an IP address allowed by there servers.

    Its LONG overdue! Use our preventative technologies to enforce some decisions for the better of the network, not the perogatives of a select few!!!!!
  • Narrow legislation? (Score:3, Interesting)

    by swb ( 14022 ) on Monday April 28, 2003 @11:12AM (#5825405)
    Who are you trying to kid? When was the last time the government passed any restriction law that was narrow and stayed narrow? Invariably someone will find a reason to broaden the scope. It's a slippery slope to being forced to get an SMTP license.

    The best way to fight spam is to enforce the existing criminal laws. Spam is almost universally fraudulent at best, if not outright criminal behavior.

    It's also the easit to pursue, since the money trail *will* lead to people responsible for the spam being sent and its the easiest trail to follow. I don't believe that SPAM is necessarily trackable, especially if it involves hijacked or cracked mail systems.
  • Narrowly-defined legislation? Too bad that no matter how limited, it will find an application or loophole that will probably be served to limit free speech in an unintended fashion. Corporate culture has a record in legislation like Germany has records in peace initiatives. Does AOL really just need a little more "elbow room"?

    Seriously though, do we really need a law for this written by the geniuses over at AOL-TW?
  • by Animats ( 122034 ) on Monday April 28, 2003 @12:15PM (#5825915) Homepage
    Much of this is opposed by the pro-spam organization National Business Coalition on E-commerce and Privacy. [practicalprivacy.org] NBCEP boasts of killing "opt-in" legislation in several states. In the words of their executive director, John Schall (a lobbyist who was a Bush I appointee),
    • SPAM is an issue we're watching. We certainly support efforts to restrict abusive and deceptive unsolic-ited commercial e-mail, but unfortunately some of the anti-SPAM legislative proposals set some dangerous precedents in terms of enforcement, for example. Ultimately, we want to make sure that no bill undercuts e-commerce generally, and we want to make sure that any SPAM leg-islation does not have the unintended consequences of having a chilling effect on this growing sector.

    What really scares them is an anti-spam law with teeth.

  • Kingpin? (Score:3, Funny)

    by Darth RadaR ( 221648 ) on Monday April 28, 2003 @12:44PM (#5826207) Journal
    Screw AOL, MSN, and Yahoo! This is obviously a job for Spiderman, The Punisher, and Daredevil. ;)
  • BS (Score:4, Interesting)

    by wardk ( 3037 ) on Monday April 28, 2003 @01:11PM (#5826462) Journal
    IMHO

    ulterior motives are at work...

    if AOL was serious about stopping spam, they'd catch it on the way out. I had 4 this morning that ANY decent filter would have caught (it's at work, so I am stuck with a krap filter).

    if aol/msn seek legislation, better read the fine print, cause the real meat isn't in the title/stated intent.

  • by maxpublic ( 450413 ) on Monday April 28, 2003 @01:38PM (#5826878) Homepage
    The proposed technical standard would be aimed at identifying "good" from "bad" e-mails on any platform.

    So whether you're running Win98, Win2000, or WinXP, you'll be certain to meet the technical standards! Oh, and open source need not apply: you're all terrorists and communists anyway, and obviously a part of the problem.

    Max

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