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Network Associates Aquires Deersoft Inc. 127

Duncan Findlay writes "Network Associates Inc. has just acquired Deersoft, Inc., which is known by many as the creator of SpamAssassin Pro, the proprietary (Windows) version of the GPL/PAL licensed SpamAssassin (Mirrors: Eastern US, Europe). It seems that we may see parts of SpamAssassin under the McAfee name within 6 months. You can also read the story at Yahoo or at Reuters. Unfortunately, the SpamAssassin trademark was owned by Deersoft, so hypothetically, NAI could force us to call the Open Source project something else!"
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Network Associates Aquires Deersoft Inc.

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  • by JanneM ( 7445 ) on Tuesday January 07, 2003 @04:57AM (#5031219) Homepage
    How about "CannedHamHitMan"? It rhymes at least...

  • It's already advertised as McAfee SpamKiller... http://mcafee.digitalriver.com/dr/v2/ec_MAIN.Entry 17c?CID=68368&PN=5&SP=10007&SID=39692&PID=388403&D SP=&CUR=840&PGRP=0&CACHE_ID=68368
  • by Marton ( 24416 ) on Tuesday January 07, 2003 @05:05AM (#5031236)
    all this inferior technology?

    McAfee bought SpamKiller a number of months back. I actually paid for that thing back when it was just a shareware project. Big money came in, updates stopped...

    Now they buy SpamAssassin, great! I actually used it after getting rid of SpamKiller, and it was OK-ish, but it bothered the hell out of me that I had no control over what's spam and what's not, except for a sender black- and whitelist. (Which sometimes does not work for mailing lists, some of the ones I'm on have date-specific senders such as blahblah-digest-20021220@blahblah.com.)

    I switched to POPFile like two months ago, and never looked back. 97.8% accuracy and increasing, yay!
  • by Viewsonic ( 584922 ) on Tuesday January 07, 2003 @05:06AM (#5031239)
    McAfee needs to add in more functionality to remove Gator programs, and other software that installs itself off the web for corporate users. Basically, they need to buy out Adaware and incorporate it within McAfee to make systems 100% clean. Virus Scanners for some reason have been very slow to scan for Gator-like programs that get installed and run in the background without the users knowledge and consent (Autoinstalls from certain sites, etc) and rack itself up as a legit virii if i've ever seen one. Users want to buy this protection, they need to offer it.
    • by Anonymous Coward
      I would HATE to see Lavasoft's Adaware be bought out by some humungous, slow company like Network Associates. They'd kill the product.
    • by sheriff_p ( 138609 ) on Tuesday January 07, 2003 @06:58AM (#5031433)
      There's a reason for this. And it's a legal minefield. Companies could sue NAI (McAfee) for detecting this software and removing it, and some AV company (I forget which, but probably H+BEDV) was sued recently by a German company that made porn dialers, because it was detecting them... Add in FBI-esque eBugs, and boy is it a spikey issue.
      • More info, please. How is it a legal minefield?

        I can install and remove anything from my pc at will, and if I am the one to install McAfee and tell it to remove spyware then it doesn't matter what the spyware manufacturer thinks (and don't give me no guff about licencing agreements - nothing I sign says I can't turn around and remove it (and expect to hold up in court) - besides, I didn't even click a yes/no to get that last batch of spyware I excised from my pc).

        Just because some pr0n dialer sued somebody doesn't mean the case was justified or will even last or lasted 1 week.
        • Okay, I can't find reference to it now, here is an example which from came from another slashdot poster. Symantec offered some product which was supposed to monitor what programs did to your system when they installed themselves self; what things they changed in the registry, where they installed components, and where they made other changes. It would also allow you to undo or prevent some of these things from occuring during the install, if the user desired. To do it's functions intelegently the Symantec product had it's own internal list of other companies products so that it would know about some of the nasty tricks some of these installed products would do durring installs. For this reason several companies sued or threatened to sue Symantec for "trademark infringement" (possibly under the DMCA, but I'm not sure), since Symantec's product contained their products names internally. Thus symantec had to dumb down their product, making it much less usefull.
      • Ad-aware spuriously removing these programs however, it's tagging them as evil spam/porn/popup/spyware, telling you about them, and giving you complete choice of what files are deleted.

        If it automatically went through and sliced'n'diced apps that would be bad. By giving the users the choice, it's their decision as to what to remove - right down to the registry entries and individual files - and a user has a right to remove whatever he/she damn well wants from a personal computer.
  • by iamacat ( 583406 ) on Tuesday January 07, 2003 @05:07AM (#5031242)
    I assume Deersoft is the company that released regular SpamAsassin under GPL. In this case, I don't think they can remove GPL from any part of the code, including it's name. If they just used GPL code from other people, they would have to either release source code for the PRO version or license the original one separately. Even then, GPL license would still protect everyone's right to use the name. Not a lawyer, just seems common sense.
    • The mark was owned by DeerSoft, the license has nothing to do with that; nor does grant something like ownership of that mark to some community at large. Also note that the software up to this point has always been dual licensed; under the GPL and under the Perl Artistic License. The latter allows for considerable more freedom.
    • No, you're not a lawyer. Nor am I, but I atleast know a bit about trademarks. Whoever owns the trademark on a word has the sole right to use that word for a certain class of products/services.

      The GPL does not in any way restrict the rights of the author of the source code, instead it grants the user of the software additional rights on the condition that they do certain things. Thus, the GPL would not force the author of a program to give up the trademark on the name of the program.

      That said I really doubt that McAfee is going to force the open source project to change its name, as it would be a PR nightmare.
      • Well, what if GPL'ed code, released by DeerSoft itself, has SpamAssasin.cpp, opens a top-level window named "SpamAssassin" and has Help/About item with the same name. Aren't file names, window names and contents of documentation part of the GPL'ed code? Or for that matter, name of the compressed file in which the code was distributed? Basically, I don't see what I have to change if they ask me to rename it.
        • The name itself is trademarked. The GPL means that if you can't figure out how to write the string "SpamAssassin" to the screen, you are free to copy the code from this program in order to do so. It does not give you the right to call your new program "SpamAssassin", it just gives you the right to know how to display the string "SpamAssassin".

          Not sure if that was too clear, but that is what I think is the story.

          • A new way to make money on free code:

            1. Release your own program under GPL
            2. Wait until people start using/extending it.
            3. Sue them for patent and trademark infrigement.
            4. Profit!!!

            Shouldn't we have GPL+ license that also makes people who write/extend the code give up any patents or trademarks that they put there? Just wait until Microsoft hears this and starts releasing shared source under "GPL".
            • The GPL already protects against patent abuse. It doesn't protect against trademark suits, which is probably for the best: People who buy Red Hat (to take the best-known example) Linux do have a right to expect that the program they're installing is actually Red Hat Linux, not some other version.
    • The GPL Licence does not protect the name, as that is a trademark. It does, however, protect the code.

      The GPL, being a licence, is a legally binding contract (assuming you agreed with it). If they decide to pull the GPL, it is always possible to make a fork from the last version released under the GPL.

      They can, however, decide not to release any new free versions. In fact, I expect NAI to do this, after the money they lost with PGP.
      • NAI really can't control whether or not there is another open source version of SpamAssassin (under whatever name).

        However, since they now employ two of the leading coders, releases might now be a lot less frequent. Hopefully, NAI will do the right thing.

    • Who says that the name of the software would be protected by GPL?

      The software name is trademarked. GPL is based off of copyright. Completely separate concepts.

    • The SpamAssasssin open-source project is licensed under the "same license as Perl itself" -- ie a dual PAL/GPL where the licensee can choose which license they wish to use. Deersoft used the open-source engine as the spam-identification component of (at time of acquisition) two products: an Outlook plugin, and an Exchange server plugin. There's a lot of windows/outlook/exchange-specific code in there which is covered under a commercial (not currently open-source) license, and these parts of the software are kept quite separate from the open-source bits.

      We're currently floating between meeting after meeting after meeting with the Network Associates folks, trying to nail down timelines, roadmaps, etc. and will have more information hopefully soon.

      Through the merger process, one of my main concerns was trying to ensure the preservation and independence of all aspects of the open source project. This was partially reflected in the press release announcing the acquisition, but I think that was written by a marketroid who doesn't necessarily understand what Open Source even means.

      If you want to contact me directly, please email me at craig@deersoft.com or craig@hughes-family.org and I'll try and get answers to any questions you may have -- be warned though that NAI is a large company with the typical slowness associated with large organizations.

      Craig Hughes
  • Assasin was pretty good and I really liked their original game [planetdeerhunter.com] as well.

  • by Anonymous Coward on Tuesday January 07, 2003 @05:12AM (#5031252)
    www.cloudmark.com

    SpamNet is actually somewhat better at intelligently filtering out trash.
    • no thanks (Score:1, Informative)

      by Anonymous Coward
      Requirements

      * Windows 98 / NT / 2000 / XP
      * Outlook 2000 / XP
      * 1mb disk space

      Um. Yeah.... Now all I need to do is get a Windows box and then install outlook. Think I'll stick to SpamAssassin, Procmail and POPFile.
    • Mate, SpamNet is Vipul's Razor. You can run MIMEDefang, SpamAssassin and Vipul's Razor together, as I do on my mail relay - and its all open source. They might not come with pretty GUIs but you do have full control over everything.
  • Now... (Score:3, Funny)

    by elixx ( 242653 ) on Tuesday January 07, 2003 @05:16AM (#5031257) Homepage
    With each purchase of NA Sniffer Pro, you get a complimentary copy of "Deer Hunter"! Absolutely /FREE/! What a bargain!
  • Just the name? (Score:5, Interesting)

    by mmoncur ( 229199 ) on Tuesday January 07, 2003 @05:17AM (#5031260) Homepage
    I hope the name SpamAssassin is all they have the rights to. It seems like there might be some messy legal issues here.

    Also, if this goes as mainstream as it looks like it's going, we might need a different open-source spam filter after all - because NAI's product will be the one the spammers will be testing on and trying to get past.

    OTOH, maybe NAI throwing money at this will make ISPs everywhere notice and start taking spam a bit more seriously.

    Anyway, while it lasts, SpamAssassin (or whatever we call it) is excellent. The new Bayesian filtering in the upcoming 2.50 is working wonders.
    • They have acquired rights to the trademark, those parts of the open source code written by Justin or me, and rights too all of Deersoft's proprietary stuff. Justin and I have also entered into employment agreements with NAI to continue there as employees following the merger.

      Since we haven't been at NAI very long yet, many decisions have yet to be made about roadmap, timelines, Justin and my level of continuing involvement in the open source project, etc., but all signs so far indicate the likelihood that NAI is planning to do the right thing, and continue Deersoft's license of the mark to the open source project, as well as allowing Justin and me to continue working on the project, while also working on NAI stuff which is not open source (just like we both were doing at Deersoft).

      However NAI ends up using what they've acquired, you be bet they'll be very likely to invest in publicizing (and providing paid support for) whatever products they built based on the technologies.

      Of course, all decisions are just my perceptions so far. I'm still chasing around the building (and on the phone to those people who aren't physically in this building) to nail down all the answers. Large companies move slowly though, so final confirmation on all this will likely take some time. I'll keep everyone posted as best as I can.

      Craig Hughes
  • ...or have there been a lot more spam related stories than usual these past few weeks? Weird..
  • by Argyle ( 25623 ) on Tuesday January 07, 2003 @05:29AM (#5031284) Homepage Journal
    I bought a copy to use at home and 30 licenses for the office. The stuff works good.

    They've continued to update the program and add more features. I get 50-100 spams per day and the program might miss one of them.

    I hope they are getting a nice tasty payout from Network Associates.
    • Not to dis your support of the Deersoft guys, which is great, but if you are running 30 copies in the office why not simply use the GPL version on your mail server? The great thing about SpamAssassin (GPL version) is that it can simply mark the headers of spam so users can have their own rules for whitelists, deleting it or moving it to special folders.
      • Well, two reasons.

        1) What I bought was a version that works as a plug-in to Microsoft Outlook that runs client-side in a Outlook/Exchange environment. It's a specific implementation of the code that I wanted. I could have taken the GPL code and changed it to do this, but it is simpler and cheaper to buy it.

        2) These guys deserve the money. They worked hard and made a good piece of software. Paying them for their work is a good incentive to continue writing good, useful code.
        • Ditto! I bought a license to use at work and recommended it highly to anyone that asked. I also was in touch with the guys there about some bug in early releases and they were quite responsive

          At home though I use(d) Outlook Express and thus had to look elsewhere. So, I came up with a way to use the GPL version "client-side" on Windows. One of these years I'll whip up a description of it.

          Balam
  • by Anand_S ( 638598 ) on Tuesday January 07, 2003 @05:49AM (#5031315)
    Since Hormel Foods owns the name "Spam," couldn't they force Network Associates to call their product "Nasty Synthetic Luncheon Meat Assassin"?
  • SpamAssassin (Score:2, Insightful)

    by fishbert42 ( 588754 )
    Assuming McAfee wants to use the SpamAssassin name, and assuming they try to make the open source project find a new name...
    wouldn't the open source project benefit greatly just by the exposure and publicity gained through such a move?

    Ok, we're not talking a CNN breaking news story here, but I'm sure I'm not alone in saying that I had never even heard of SpamAssassin until just now via /. -- that's an increase in public exposure already. For a typical open source project (meaning: advertising efforts rely mainly on word-of-mouth and product reviews), there's the potential for great benefit here. If the open source SpamAssassin project makes a good product, nobody will remember a name change controversy one or two years down the line; but there's no doubt that more people will have been made aware that such a project existed in the first place.
    • "but I'm sure I'm not alone in saying that I had never even heard of SpamAssassin until just now via /. "

      You must be new around here or filtering out interesting articles... It's been around for ages, I've been using it now myself for nearly 18 months or more in varying guises.

      I guess the latter would make it rather hard for them to force us to change the name for the thing, too.
  • OMG! (Score:1, Funny)

    by Anonymous Coward
    They killed SpamAssassin! ;-)
  • Personally, i prefer to use RBL's and block the spammers so i dont have to fill up my server's hdd. I tend to suspect that RBL checks are less computationally intensive then content filters.

    Besides, if the ip keeps tripping my rbl check, i can add it to the firewall and waste about zero cpu time on em : )
  • by KeyserDK ( 301544 ) on Tuesday January 07, 2003 @06:19AM (#5031375) Homepage
    Q. What will happen to existing Deersoft Inc. products and customers?

    We will take the existing product off the market immediately and will launch an enhanced version in the second quarter of 2003. Network Associates has assumed all support obligations for Deersoft customers. Existing Deersoft customers can contact a technical support representative at 1 800-722-3709.

    YES US TELEPHONE SUPPORT! it's *SO* cheap calling from Denmark to US.

    Anyway as happy user, I seriously doubt anything worthwhile for existing customers will come out of this.

    • dont get too angry at Network Associates. im sure deersoft didnt have existing customers support on their minds when they signed the deal. if they did well that would have been a con now wouldnt it.
    • YES US TELEPHONE SUPPORT! it's *SO* cheap calling from Denmark to US.

      What happens when you dial TOLL FREE numbers over here? Do they charge you??

      Man, it's almost like a tax to own a phone in some parts of europe. Friend of mine called me from London once. He plopped in 10 Pounds and we got to talk long enough to say hi, and for me to say hi to his wife or something (like about 3-5 minutes maybe?). That's insane. I called a friend in Italy nearly 10 years ago (when long distance was more expensive in NA) and a 20 minute call was only 40 bucks.
  • From a marketriod standpoint (IANAM), the word "Assassin" is too heavily conotated with the deliberate forcible termination of human life to be effective as part of a product name (unless you make assassination products!). Also, while SpamAssassin has great market penetration amongst the Slashdot crowd, I don't think it's so well known with the general public that they'll keep the brand name for recognition value.

    • So they're integrating it with their kindler-gentler SpamKiller software? ;-) http://www.mcafeeb2b.com/other/jump/deersoft-homeu ser.asp [mcafeeb2b.com]. Balam
    • SpamAssassin has *great* brand name recognition. Yes, it is heavily amongst slashdot-like crowd, but it's also been featured a lot in the press, plus there are many /.ers who run open-source SA on their boxes at home, but would just love an Outlook/Exchange version to purchase for use at the office where Mr PHB wants something which runs on Windows, or where they don't have the time/personel to install/tweak/maintain/update the open source version.

      Deersoft's aim was to provide nicely packaged, GUI-ized point-and-click products for the Windows market, driven by the same high-precision engine that's available to the open-source enlightened through spamassassin.org

      Craig Hughes
  • call... (Score:2, Funny)

    by m1chael ( 636773 )
    it spamo-blamo!

  • I first looked at the headline and thought it said Network Solutions acquires Deersoft, Inc...
  • This article on VB looks at the history of SpamAssassin and SpamAssassin pro, and conflicts of interest this might create; a neat summary:

    http://www.virusbtn.com/news/latest_news/spamassas sin.xml [virusbtn.com]
  • Who cares what they call it?

  • by kramer ( 19951 ) on Tuesday January 07, 2003 @08:12AM (#5031551) Homepage
    Assuming anything happens on the trademark front Deersoft owning the SpamAssassin trademark is relatively pointless. IIRC Spamassassin was called spamassassin long before deersoft registered the trademark, or even considered a windows version. Use of a trademark prior to it being registered is a vaild defense against a trademark infringement cliam, and can actually should the spamassassin folks choose be grounds to have deersoft's trademark squashed.
    • Except the person that came up with the name is now employed by DeerSoft, and they have the right to it.
    • I'm guessing YANAL...

      Explain how Microsoft was able to trademark the word "Windows", then.

      • Not that it's germane to the discussion, but trademarks take into acount the field of endeavour for each trademark. There may be hundreds of different companies all trademarking the same word, as long as there isn't another company claiming prior trademark use within that field there's typically not a problem registering. The fact that Microsoft registered the Windows name in the computer software domain doesn't mean nobody else has used that word ever in the history of the world, instead that nobody else used that word to describe or name a product in the limited domain of computer software.

        Further, Microsoft's Windows trademark is teneous at best, with at least one federal judge questioning the legitimacy of their trademark claim [com.com]

        And no, I'm not a Lawyer -- yet, although with my newly acquired LSAT scores I may soon remedy that.
    • FWIW, Deersoft claims ownership of the trademark through precisely the prior use argument you're talking about. Justin Mason, who originated the SpamAssassin open source project, assigned the trademark to Deersoft through me. As for NAI's intentions wrt the mark, I'm working on clarifying those now (just moved into NAI's offices yesterday and still don't know everyone's phone number/office location), and will let you all know what's going on as soon as I have definitive information.

      Craig Hughes
  • damned if you do (Score:3, Insightful)

    by SubtleNuance ( 184325 ) on Tuesday January 07, 2003 @08:29AM (#5031581) Journal
    wrt: SpamAssassin trademark was owned by Deersoft, so hypothetically, NAI could force us to call the Open Source project something else!"

    ...except that the previous owners did not vigorously defend the mark against the Free Software project, would NAI now have grounds at all? Selling the mark does not erase the actions Deersoft did/did-not make.

    EXCEPT that there is no justice in the USA without $$$$ - so the mere threat of a suit from NAI would cause the F.S. project to freely walk away from the 'battle'.

    • The open-source project used the mark under license from Deersoft. AFAIK Deersoft has always defended the mark when it thought the mark was being infringed.

      Craig Hughes
  • by pummer ( 637413 )
    wow, a spyware killer prog that's updated???

    /confused
  • by Anonymous Coward
    An NAI story

    "Hello, we're using the free version of PGP in testing and have decided to use it in production, what do we need to license this from you?" Sales moron takes information and says, 'I'll get back to you in a bit.'

    Guy calls back threatening a lawsuit if we don't buy the 'Enterprise' edition of the product that only runs on Windows (We needed only the version for Solaris). This continues with more and more strongarmed tactics including phone spamming all of our corporate directory with their threats.

    It took telling the guy that he was too close to our office to keep running on at the mouth like he was and that he had better serve papers or look over his shoulder durning lunch hour if he continued calling.

    NAI uses mafia tactics to sell their broken down product line, the faster people can boycott them the better off we all will be. I have never sold another NAI product to any of my clients as a result.

    May as well change the name now just to avoid the annoying threats that will ensue. NAI you are despicable, a stand-out in a sea of detritus. Congratulations on what will be the ruin of another great product.
  • "The first product, McAfee SpamKiller(TM) Enterprise, will be delivered in the second quarter as a desktop solution."

    Which means they're probably not concerned with who uses the SpamAssasin name.
  • Ask for a name change? Have lawsuits over names! Ridiculous!

    Afterall, were talking about Network Ass...nevermind.

  • by rw2 ( 17419 ) on Tuesday January 07, 2003 @10:51AM (#5032371) Homepage
    With apologies to the many who have contributed to SA in the past, Spamassassin was basically the work of three people. Craig, Justin and Matt. Between the three of them that's the *vast* majority of the work that was done on that project.

    Here's the troubling part.

    Craig and Justin owned the trademark and now work for NAI on the proprietary version (to be named "SpamKiller" apparently) and Matt's company has pulled him off because there is a conflict of interest in having him work on open source being fed back into NAI.

    So the three captains of this project are now gone. This doesn't bode well for the future of SA.

    Sucks.
    • Presumably someone will take the code and make another project based on it. SA was too damned useful to be killed.
    • by Anonymous Coward
      From the FAQ. Note the starred portion

      Q. What will be the status of the open source product following the acquisition?

      The SpamAssassin open source project will continue and *will be maintained by its current authors including Justin Mason and Craig Hughes*. Mason and Hughes will be employees of Network Associates and will devote their energies to the development of the proprietary McAfee product.

      • by rw2 ( 17419 ) on Tuesday January 07, 2003 @04:06PM (#5034994) Homepage
        Mod the parent down, he highlighted the wrong portion.

        The highlighted portion should have been:

        The SpamAssassin open source project will continue and will be maintained by its current authors including Justin Mason and Craig Hughes. Mason and Hughes will be employees of Network Associates and will devote their energies to the development of the proprietary McAfee product.

        Now having said that, Justin has posted saying that even for the last four months he's been working for Deersoft and still working on OS so there is some reason to hope. Craig's been pretty busy though and difficult to contact, so I wouldn't bet on him being able to spend much time on the OS portion going forward and Matt has officially dropped out.
        • All negotiations with NAI during the merger, and all evidence I've seen or heard since arriving at NAI's offices to start work yesterday, are that both Justin and I will still be working on the OS stuff in the same way we were for the last months while we were employed at Deersoft. I haven't heard the official word confirmed from the right people definitively yet, but that is my expectation at this point. Justin and I will let you all know exactly what the 411 is once we know ourselves.

          Craig Hughes
  • NAI could force us to call the Open Source project something else!"

    A Pink Meat Eater by any other name doth smell as sweet.

    Interesting trend here. OS projects getting bought out by private industry. While lots to be said about that, and the quality of OS vs. Closed Source, I don't see that this could change anything other than the name.

    Yes, it is terrible to see the three original authors go, but there are many in the OS community that are willing to pick up and carry on. And once OS, always OS, right?

    SpamAssassin code seems fairly stable. All that's really needed at this point are updates to the matching rules IMO. At some point, yes, the code will need a bit of work, but it's not the same level of job to maintain code as it is to create it. I'm not saying it's easy...

  • According to the article at Infoweek [informationweek.com], NAI plans to call their product SpamKiller, not SpamAsassin. Looks like the OSS version may be ok name-wise after all.
  • If it gets to be a problem, I suggest ANSA [hyperdictionary.com]'s Not Spam Assassin.

    Another suggestion; we get to keep the name for the GPL's *NIX version as long as we continue to not release a free (GPL or beer) windows port.

  • "YOUR DOMAINS ARE EXPIRING! RE-REGISTER THEM NOW WITH NETWORK SOLUTIONS! ONLY $35/YEAR! THAT'S LESS THAN $($) PER DAY! ...if you do not wish to receive these messages, please purchase SpamAssassin. Now available for only $250."
    And then, of course, NSI is whitelisted in the SA database through some "mysterious corruption".

Suggest you just sit there and wait till life gets easier.

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