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Encryption Security

Encryption Key Retrieval Method Invented 218

try67 writes "ZDNet has this article discussing a method developed by several scientists (including Adi Shamir - the S in RSA, the guy who later found a way to crack RSA, GSM alg. cracker, and all-around very cool guy) of finding and stealing encryption keys from servers. The key's randomness seems to be what's giving them away." This is an interesting piece, but why do people continually feel that my credit card number is the most valuable piece of information I own? There's more than e-commerce at stake, people.
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Encryption Key Retrieval Method Invented

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  • by Anonymous Coward
    From the article, it seems this problem only affects users of shared virtual servers.
    If someone has access to the filesystem with the key, that's the problem that should be fixed.
    Of course, if you website is not secured, slapping SSL on top if it won't help.
  • by Anonymous Coward
    First of all, as everyone else has pointed out, is a cracker has access the filesystem where you store your keys, you have more important security concerns.

    Second of all, this was reported almost a year and a half ago (Sept 22, 1998)

    http://www.nciph er.com/products/files/papers/anguilla/keyhide2.pdf [ncipher.com]
  • by Anonymous Coward
    "Hacker" was taken by the media and misrepresented and miss used.

    Shit, he's on to us. Okay, I admit it, I was in on the decision. Me, Rupert Murdoch, Ted Turner, and a half dozen other media biggies had convened a meeting. We were in a dimly lit room, each resting in a leather-upholstered chair, smoking cigars, drinking cognac, and trying to answer the question: "How can we stick it to the geeks?" We spent hours debating the issue. We considered dozens of solutions - chain gangs, death camps, insanely high taxes on twinkies and Jolt, but none of these things really seemed satisfying. Finally, Ted had an idea: we would begin using the word "hacker" to refer to computer criminals, until it had thoroughly negative connotations in the ears of the public. Everyone praised the elegance of this plan, and thus, the matter was settled.

  • by Anonymous Coward
    I don't think you get the point. The main issue is not the card numbers that you have sitting on the machine that day the hacker gets into your server (and someone will eventually...). Once you detect them, you can call the credit card company and say these cards numbers may have been compromised. It's a hassle, but a bounded one. But once somebody has the Private Key for your site's certificate, you can no longer safely conduct business on that site until the key expires years from now (there is no revoke). The people with your stolen certificate can set up alternate sites in combination with a DNS attack and just BE you as far as web security goes. If you just spent a fortune on getting your brand recognized as foo.com, guess what? You can't safely use that anymore! This IS a big deal, and why it is more important to protect the key than the data that it is guarding today. As was mentioned before, putting the key into a crpto-engine card, etc... keeps your certificate safe, not the data that it just decrypted.
  • by Anonymous Coward
    Although the person writing the article was obviously trying to sensationalize by mentioning credit cards numbers, I doubt the intelligent people behind the research considered that the primary issue. As you say, there are lots of ways to limit your vulnerability to just those credit card numbers that flowed through the server while it was compromised.

    The bigger issue I see (and thought about alot during some fairly large e-commerce projects I worked on) is SSL certificate compromise, and what that could do to a business long-term. These certificates don't expire all that often. Once one is compromised, that should make the domain name they are associated with useless for e-commerce until the compromised certificate expires. If you have alot of money invested in branding your domain name, this can be a very big deal (imagine amazon.com getting their certifcate compromised, for example).

    Now, all the big boys do protect their certificates like the formula for coke. But what about those aspiring web sites? A hacker could gather up certificates for many of these sites, wait for one of them to become the next e-bay (it seems you only have to wait a few months these days), and then start masqerading as them on the web, successfully, because they have that site's certificate. While they won't likely steal much before being found out, that e-company is RUINED in a day!

    Moral: If you don't mind that your domain name may have to change (or go unused for a few years) after a compromise of your server, go ahead and put your SSL keys right there on the server (in memory or disk, its just a matter of degrees of difficulty after that). If you think that domain name is valuable to you, invest in some crypto hardware. You'll sleep better.
  • by Anonymous Coward
    cat /dev/credit > /dev/audio

    mp3 the sound of money:

    mpg123 /dev/urandom

    the RIAA way:

    mpg123 /dev/credit >> /dev/riaa

    Making a cach advance:

    cat /dev/credit

    Fraudulant use:

    cat /dev/urandom > /dev/credit

    Using windows:

    su
    watch cat /dev/credit | bsod | >> /dev/msft

    Windows 2000 promotions:

    ln -s /dev/zero /dev/vaporware
    cat /dev/vaporware
  • by Anonymous Coward
    If you print "See I.D." on the back of the card in lieu of a signature, then you aren't even liable for the $50. I believe the same holds for check cards as well.
  • I have had and used credit cards for over 5 years. Never have I paid a cent of interest. How? I pay the total balance every month when it is due. High interest rates only affect people who buy more than they can afford.

    Having a credit card number stolen is a worry, but not a great one. The price of the stolen goods goes into creating those high interest rates (along with greed) because the individual card holders usually refuse to pay for unauthorized purchases. If a customer's card gets cancelled over it, there are plenty of other credit card companies to step in for the old one.
  • The "attack", detailed in:

    http://www.nciph er.com/products/files/papers/anguilla/keyhide2.pdf [ncipher.com]

    appears to be a better search algorithm for finding keys in already-compromised media. Anyone relying on a strange filename or a full disk to hide their RSA keys now has even more need to worry :)

    This is not a new "break", it just make security-through-obscurity even less obscure/secure.
  • Not to mention that their product is Open Source and has more features than most commercial remote administration tools.

    Oh, and I don't suppose you'd know about those 500+ textfiles they've written (dating since circa 1984, since those aren't mentioned on CNN.
  • And Microsoft have still given us no good answer as to what their NSA key is for.

    I have been paying close attention.
    --
  • This algorithm was published quite a while ago: I've implemented it myself [demon.co.uk]. It's best use is to look for "NSA key" type backdoors in closed source software, like Lotus Notes. The only "news" is that nCipher have worked out a way to turn it into publicity for their product. As everyone is saying, it's not very contentful.

    By the way, Adi Shamir (and Ron Rivest, for that matter) have done a *lot* more crypto work than just RSA. Shamir is one of the inventors of differential cryptanalysis (along with Eli Biham).
    --
  • Storing secret keys on an accessable server is stupid anyway. If someone roots the box, they'll just use your software to do the decrypting for them.

    The correct procedure is to store the public key on the web server, and have it send the encrypted data to a private server behind a secondary firewall. THAT server is the one with the secret keys. The second firewall should choke off all but the port used to transfer the data.

    The same people who will be deeply worried about this will freely hand their card to a waiter (who will disappear for several minutes before returning with card and reciept) or read out the number for a phone order and won't think twice about it.

  • If you've cracked the server already finding a stored key is so-what. Probably easy enough to just look in the server directory tree - most people probably put them somewhere in that vicinity. Besides, what you really want is just to pull the order databases down and you have the CC #'s and shipping addresses. Duh.
  • At one time I thought that many words were misused before I looked them up in a dictionary.

    Personally I believe you are fighting a loosing battle. The hacker community doesn't want to be labeled like criminals, so they try to push a new usage and a new word cracker. Obviously the population as a whole and mass media didn't accept this, despite the rant campains and possibly some write-ins to the journalists. I do still believe that criminal should be an adjective for hacker, where hacker really shouldn't be an assumed criminal, so I do agree on that point.
  • I greatly respect the engineering that went into this paper, but I think we're talking about a little bit of...oh, I don't know...when you've got a hammer, everything looks like a nail?

    What's been discovered is a method of, independant of the file system and various configuration files, extracting a key based on the difference between that key and the surrounding ambient randomness.

    Independant of the file system?

    How, exactly, is the web server supposed to retrieve the private key without a file call? Perhaps it should reference a specific block on the hard drive, and read x bytes from that location? Oh, oops, now we've got a "big deal" of a security breach in our web server configuration files.

    When I first read this, I had assumed they discovered a method by which the private key could be divined by remote interrogation of the server side provided challenge. That's not what they discovered. They found a way that, given a hard drive with every single file cataconcated together with no indexing system available, they could still find zones likely(but not guaranteed) to represent private keys.

    Anyone here have a hard drive like that?

    This is *cool*, from a geek sense. I appreciate the value of the research. But it's so far from a big deal, it's ridiculous. It's one thing to say that shared servers increase the risk of having your private key stolen--I'd *hope* that the keys of one customer are isolated from the owners of another--but this specific worry is just...inaccurate. Cool tech, but not something to have your blood pressure increase over.

    Yours Truly,

    Dan Kaminsky
    DoxPara Research
    http://www.doxpara.com
  • by Millennium ( 2451 ) on Saturday January 08, 2000 @07:58AM (#1392233)
    However, I'm intrigued by that comparison to ultra-quiet submarines.

    Think for a moment. Say you had a fleet of ultra-quiet submarines. You know that your enemy can track them if my looking for unusually quiet spots. So, what do you do?

    The answer: surround their fleet. Cancel out the ambient noise, so the quiet spots can't be picked out. It's the opposite of creating noise to cover noisy submarines.

    Therefore, one answer would seem to be the creation of many "dummy" keys on the server. They're generated just like the "real" key is, so they're just as random. Thelocation of the "real" key then becomes a closely-guarded secret, of course, as much so as the machine's root password.

    Consider that the strongest keys out there are only 4K. This means that creating 1000 dummies only wastes four megs of space; in an age where it's hard to find drives less than twenty times that size this isn't really that much of a space-waster.

    The best solution would be a completely-encrypted filesystem. Then there would be no way to tell the key from any other data, and even if you could it would be useless. Are there any good fully-encrypted filesystems out there yet? Linux-compatibility would be a plus...
  • emmett mentions that Adi Shamir found a way to crack RSA. Can somebody please elaborate on this???

    ___
  • The article says:

    All a hacker would have to do, Hopcroft said, is set up an account with an Internet service provider hosting a company's Web site, "go into that server and root around looking for the keys of other companies. With [the key] there is no way for me to be distinguished from a legitimate business owner."

    OK, that's funny. I hope that any ISP that leaves secret keys around w/ out proper permissions (ones denying Joe-Other-User from my critical information) and w/out a properly long passphrase (in the case of SSL certificates) would not even be in business. Private Keys are something that you keep properly protected. And if someone gains root access you are screwed. They will find the key, not because of the randomness, but because they now have complete control of the system. Once someone gains root access, there is not much you CAN do to prevent them from getting the key.

  • These checksum algorithms are public knowledge. There are several examples on the internet, you just need to look for them. I've used them several times in back end web development just to do a preliminary check on wether a number submitted can even be a credit card number.
  • It appears that the article is discussing a flaw in the implimentation of an asymetrical algorithm, such as ElGamel or RSA. Real easy solution folks - the server that is actually taking credit card numbers should only have the public key stored on it. There is no need for the private key to be on any public accessable system, as the decryption of the card data is done only by the card processor, which is never done on a system connected to the Internet.

    You also must introduce randomness to the credit card data before encrypting, because the regularity of credit card numbers allows a cracker to make a known-plaintext attack.

    I've been dealing with security and encryption with e-commerse for about two years. Anyone who would set up a system like that discussed in the article is a rank amateur and a fool.

    The article is a bunch of bullshit.
  • You are refering to a symmetric algorithm (I am inferring this from your reference to ssl, which requires a symetric algorithm). In this case, yes, you are correct; however, (if implemented correctly), ssl will encrypt a unique session key, that changes with each new connection. With a unique session key, you still cannot decrypt the data, as it is encrypted with both the session key and the symetric cipher.

    The article appears (at least to me) to be refering to public key encryption, such as used in PGP. These protocols make use of asymetric algorithms, which require two unique keys - a public and private. You can encrypt messages with either key, but you cannot derive on key from the other.

    The key to security here is having only the public key available on a system connected to the Internet. While you still must guard against sideband attacks, this makes a brut force attack against the crypto infeasable.

    Yes, I am suggesting that the data is re-encrypted and passed to a secured vault server. And yes, it is a very, very good idea.

  • by neuroid ( 6952 ) on Saturday January 08, 2000 @05:29AM (#1392239)
    So let me see if I can get this right...the cDc releases information about a security risk in a certain company's operating system, thus causing said company to deny there is a problem, blame in on the cDc, and finally, fix it...eventually. Therefore, the cDc is a bunch of evil hackers because they provided this information.

    When a group of respected scientists point out a security vulnerability, they're the good guys, for pointing out a vulnerability that 'hackers' might exploit.

    Well, I guess that's fair.
  • And double-check your other IDs as well. I have seen student IDs double as a debit card for college services. (This was at Dartmouth College, I am sure they are not alone.) There were incidences of people's cards being stolen and substantial charges being racked up.

    All in all, if you have some piece of plastic that can hand out your money, you should know the liability rules and what protection you have on that piece of plastic.

    Cheers,
    Ben
  • by tilly ( 7530 ) on Saturday January 08, 2000 @05:38AM (#1392241)
    The details vary according to your country's consumer protection laws, but if your credit card is stolen and used, you are not directly liable for more than a certain amount. ($50 in the USA.) Who is? The credit card company! The cost of that liability is a risk they bear, and comes back to merchants and consumers through costs for setting up credit cards.

    This is why credit card companies put so much energy into keeping profiles of consumers, and will yank your card as soon as you no longer fit your profile. It is also why banks love debit cards - since they are drawn directly on your bank account, there is no limit on your liability risk.

    Just another right that people have and don't appreciate...

    Cheers,
    Be
  • by TomG ( 9985 )
    If slashdot doesn't stop linking to articles that says hackers are computer criminals, I'll stop reading slashdot. *sigh* Why? Because I expect Slashdot to link to truthful stories.

    TomG
  • Who owns the word, and who the majority is is irrelevant. The meaning is still the same. A hacker is not a computer criminal. This is not evolving language, this is perversion of language.
  • Importance and attitude is not relevant. The hacker culture means a lot to mean, and I'm not going to let people destroy it.

    TomG
  • Heh. That's not ranting. Trolling some, yeah. But you haven't seen me rant. I did not say I was a member of the hacker culture, but thank you for assuming I was. :-) And I don't have to get everyone to use 'hacker' correctly. Just one more person.
    TomG
  • Sure. We can stop. You'll stop and I'll keep going. Yes, I am weird/insane/unreasonable. I love every second of it.
    TomG
  • I think a faggot is a piece of wood or something, and gay means happy. I would recognize the meanings of "wherefores" and "thous", but I wouldn't use them in everyday speech. "Hacker" was taken by the media and misrepresented and miss used. This is a clear case of abuse and/or perversion of the language.
    TomG
  • I say it's not accurate, because it doesn't say that the incorrect definition is a popular misconception.
    TomG
  • That's right, no one _decides_ what a word means. Therefore everyone's opinion is just as good as everyone's fact. And according to me, it's a fact that "hacker" is not a computer criminal.

    TomG
  • What? I'm an asshole technical elitist who's full of himself! :-)

    TomG
  • What is real? Silly, no one defines words that _everyone_ believes. That kind of power is impossible. I can only know what it means to me, and correct everyone else who uses it wrong. And since it means a lot to me, I will do that.

    TomG
  • It is indeed a losing battle. But losing battles are the only battles worth fighting.

    TomG
  • Hackers are not criminals. Hackers do not break in. Crackers break in. Get it? Got it. Good. And yes, crackers are criminals.

    TomG
  • Doesn't mean I can't make a threat. :-)

    TomG
  • And I would be complimented to be your definition of a perputual loser.

    TomG
  • No. :-)
  • Yep. The difference is that geeks have _taken_ that name and used it in irony against those that would mock them.

    TomG
  • A cracker is also someone who breaks into computer programs. And it's not as hold, hackers have existed before copry protected software. This exclusion that you speak of, if I understand, is simply me being accurate.

    TomG
  • Your big paragraph of sarcasm aside, I'd like to see you tell me, bold faced that the media would never, ever use blatant sensationalism to sell a story.

    TomG
  • I will keep this in mind for the future, thank you for the idea. :-)

    TomG
  • After reading toast0's reply, I decided that I should reply also. Do you think it's easy, Mister Coward, to take on a very large group of people that do not agree with me and contradict them, intelligently, at every turn? This is a challenge, and I am enjoying it.

    TomG
  • I do not appreciate being called a hypocrit. There is a difference between expanding a word's meaning, and removing meanings, or destroying the previous meaning.

    TomG
  • I guess I have to change them back.

    TomG
  • I can call names too, Mr. Coward. Mean names. Watch. Journalist!

    TomG
  • No. :-) And since you so insistent, why don't you go through the trouble of explaining exactly why I am arrogant?
  • Very funny. :-) If I could find one (and have cash for it), I would own one. I would even try to hook it up to the internet and use it.

    TomG
  • An excellent and important point. A point that I make to people and they do not remotely understand.

    I've had to tell my bank twice that they do NOT have my permission to issue a credit card that comes out of my account.

    I don't know where the idea came from the "check cards" are in any way superior to credit cards... it's completely wrong. A check card is both more risky for the reason you state, and more expensive because you pay right now, not 30 days later with no interest.
  • Check cards can deplete your account (making your house payment bounce) when the card is stolen/copied/fraudulently used.

    Use a credit card, you will out $50 (at most, generally 0) if it is stolen, and your house payment won't bounce.

  • by alhaz ( 11039 ) on Saturday January 08, 2000 @09:21AM (#1392269) Homepage
    Arguably, remote commerce isn't anywhere near as dangerous as buying dinner at a decent restaurant.

    Think about it. You're just handing your actual credit card to someone you've barely met. They may take it across the street and buy a TV for all you know, or they may just decide to keep it.

  • I respectfully disagree with your assessment. I don't use *CREDIT* cards because they have their own set of problems. I've actually had fraudulent charges show up on my account, and once I called the bank and informed them, it was about a day or two before the account balance was back to normal. Banks might say they don't *have* to cover losses on a check card, but in the interest of keeping their customers happy, they usually will. The best thing about a check card is that it's pay-as-you-go. You don't have the money, you don't buy it.
  • by Detritus ( 11846 ) on Saturday January 08, 2000 @07:30AM (#1392271) Homepage
    It isn't always that easy. In an infamous case, John Munden, a British police officer, was charged with attempted fraud and convicted for complaining about funds missing from his bank account. The bank, Halifax Building Society, said that their systems were secure, therefore Mr. Munden was lying. This was enough to convince the court. The conviction was later overturned on appeal.
  • by Detritus ( 11846 ) on Saturday January 08, 2000 @06:50AM (#1392272) Homepage
    Key storage and protection is an old problem. You have to assume that the operating system may be cracked, either by an external attacker or by an authorized user. The solution is to store keys in a tamper resistant hardware device, which can be an external box or a special chip. The keys can go into the device, but they can't come out. IBM has used this approach for their mainframe cryptographic facility for decades. IBM has a PCI card [ibm.com] that solves this problem for PCs.
  • As plenty of people are being redundant, here's an idea:

    As you have root access (you can read the key, can't you?), let the server decrypt it for you, and then send you the information that you want. This would uncomplicate things greatly, as you don't have to spend any of your own time decrypting/parsing the info.

    Then, once you have the info that you want, have it send the stuff to you in a packet that appears to be, say, a spoofed SSL packet going to a client who's coincidentally wandering around the site looking at stuff at the time, and thus get all the CC numbers you want without anyone knowing, given that the packets that your hack on the server sends you look normal, you don't use it too much on one server, you clean up your footprints, make it look like your attempt failed (ie, continuing to look for other holes), and tell no one.

  • by jetson123 ( 13128 ) on Saturday January 08, 2000 @10:02AM (#1392274)
    Here is the assumption from the nCipher paper:
    Once decrypted into plain-text, the key is vulnerable to the "key-finding" attack. But since a key is only a few hundred bytes long and the storage space of the server may be tens of gigabytes, conventional reasoning argues that an intruder is unlikely to ever find the key.
    I know of noone that relies on the difficulty of finding a key within a few gigabytes of memory to protect their server. Doing so would be silly: there are a lot simpler attacks than looking for keys by their randomness. For example, most server software is standardized, and it's easy to figure out what locations hold pointers to the keys (you can find out by analyzing the source or by experimenting with your own copy). And there are many other ways to attack.

    If you want your keys to be secure, the system that keeps them has to be physically secure and secure against unauthorized logins because at some point, the system will have the plain text keys in memory somewhere.

    Of course, the whole thing is an attempt by nCipher to drum up business--they want to sell their "nCipher hardware". If you use a cryptographic accelerator that also performs the key management, you are a bit safer, because most of the time, the keys are available only inside the accelerator, a device that is probably harder to "break into" than the whole server. But nCipher's solution is still vulnerable because you communicate with the encryption box over the web and the web client you use could be attacked.

    The best security for your keys is likely to be achieved by using a crypto accelerator for which the key is entered physically at the box (e.g., via a SmartCard or keyboard), or for which you physically connect the box to another, non-networked computer while performing key management functions. Lots of products besides nCipher's are capable of that.

  • This actually wasn't really news to me... I thought I'd read it on Counterpanes site a great while ago, but i'm looking and now can't find it. But anyways, SOMEONE out there had a great article about somethinglike this. Like, how to find private keys if you actually do get access to a computer they're stored on.... I think the whole premis of the article is that you need to be sitting at the computer, running very low-level disk utilities that let you sort through all the garbage really quickly. Maybe you could do it with telnet, i don't know.

    But two things pop into mind right now.

    #1 - is that of course things are going to mess up if the systems are insecure in the first place.

    #2 - this whole thing was brought to ZDNETs attention by a company that clames to have hardware solution for this "problem"... Does that say anything to you? Maybe this was more of that companies advertising effort and less of its general research.

    So really... who cares, is what i think. If the servers ARE secured, then the keys aer safe. If they aren't, well then, the keys could have been subsitituted... It's just how pararnoid do you want to be?
  • If it used just the date and time to seed the random number generator, that wouldn't be very random, now would it? There's countless ways to generate good random numbers... And the best are free for all anyhow, so it's really unlikely that it would be that simple.
  • If your server software know to access the correct key from the other thousand, it would seem to be easy for an intruder to discern that information as well. And really, 1000 keys is not all that much extra garbage to sift through in the first place....

    So far as your encryped filesystem goes... NTFS 5.0... unless, of course, it's been cracked already :)
  • How many of your ISP's even have your private key? I know once I generated my keypair, i sent mine the public key and kept the private key for myself. They just forward me my data and i decrypt it from my computer, rather than let them decryp and reencrypt and send to me.

    Likewise... I doubt (and hope that not) many of the major e-commerce sites keep their complete key pair on the same machine... Likely, they'll have a cluster of webserves with read only access to the products database, and write only to the orders database. those machines don't need to know what the data that they're passing back and forth is, they just need to get it from the server to the client.
  • Not that this discussion really belongs here but slashdot.com is some DSL provider or something that's squating on it. So it's not like they have the choice, unless the want to rename the site which would just be stupid.
  • Baloney credit card fraud will not bankrupt the banks. Anyone that thinks that has never had a merchant account and seen how the banks deal with fraud. Frankly the banks make money off the fraud.

    a) The banks do not cover the charges in most cases and especially not in cases where a magnetic swipe is not take (i.e. ecommerce and phone orders ). In these cases if it's the merchant ends up eating the cost of the charge because the bank takes the money back.

    b) The banks/processors get a small fee for every transaction on top of the percentage. They keep the fee and the percentage whiel dinging the merchant for the entire cost of the charge when they only deposit the net amount after fees. This fee is around 12 cents a transactions for Visa + approx 3%. So assuming someone stole a million cards and ran just one transaction on it. Visa just made $120,000.00 off of fraud and that's not even taking into consideration the percentage.

    c) On top of the fee to run the transaction there is normally a fee for handling the fraud process (known as a chargeback). A low for this fee in the market is $5.00 and I've seen it as high as $15.00 per charge. Which would mean as much as $15 million in revenue off the fraudulent charge.

    d) Before most chargebacks mentioned above are run a retrieval request is also issued. This is normaly also a $5.00 - $15.00 cost.

    The only time the credit card companies are risking anything is if the merchant goes out of business. Which is highly unlikely since most people who steal cards spread there fraudulent activity around.

    So frankly I don't think the card companies have any incentive to solve the problem. Merchants are always the people left holding the bag.

  • If I have access to the server, I have access to the code that runs on the server. If I have access to the code, I can trace through that code, find out where it gets its keys from, and do the same thing. This has always been the case.

    The key is to keep people from getting access to the server - not to claim that there's something wrong with the infrastructure because it's possible to compromise something outside of it.
  • ...and the point I forgot to mention - if there *is* a discovery here, it's certainly not being reported well by ZDnet. As far as I can tell, the articles consists of about 50% idle speculation and rumour-mongering on the part of rent-a-quote e-commerce types (with the exception of Bruce Schneier), and 50% contrived explanation by someone who doesn't understand anything about PKI.
  • Van Someren said nCipher decided to go after encryption keys because "we make products that redress these problems." The company offers a hardware solution to the problem of encryption-key security.

    Translation: nCipher decided to make you paranoid about storing your decryption key anyone on your hard disk, so you'd store it with nCipher's hardware solution instead. *Very* thoughtful of them.-(

    If I understand this "vunerability" correctly, the approach is to read every block on the hard disk, looking for sequences that are unusually random. Is this supposed to be more effective than looking for strings around the words "decryption key"?-|
  • Is it just me or isn't this a "well duh"? I figured that most web hosts would be intelligent enough to have their shell server, file server, and web server seperated. Not to mention I would hope that people wouldn't keep their key files 777.

    One piece disturbs me:

    All a hacker would have to do, Hopcroft said,
    is set up an account with an Internet service
    provider hosting a company's Web site, "go into
    that server and root around looking for the keys
    of other companies. With [the key] there is no
    way for me to be distinguished from a legitimate
    business owner."

    Is it just me, or isn't this another "well duh". If you have shotty administration and security you are going to have "hackers" breaking in and "root[ing] around". The only revelation that this article seems to make is that poor administration, poor implementation, and shotty security go hand in hand. Anyone who has been in the ISP or hosting business knows this for a fact.

    It all comes down to 'buyer beware' - and if the consumer doesn't heed that then they are at fault.

  • That's funny, considering that most credit cards are already charging the maximum interest rate allowed by law, or very close to it.
  • All this story says is that once a cracker has compromised a server, then they have a more easy way of locating the encryption keys that may be stored on it. No method has been found for breaking the encryption itself and this does not make e-commerce unsecure. All it actually means is that companies with insecure webservers will find that the keys stored on their servers are located slightly more quickly than by other means. Please note that posting this story was designed to cause a reaction because the guy who posted it (emmett) is reasonably new and wants to create a good impression (TM) amoungst readers. Unfortunately, what he fails to realise is that it is a load of scaremongering shite that he has posted. Anyone who thinks this changes anything is wrong.

    Please people, actually read the stories that are posted and don't just accept some bloke interpretation. This story wasn't worth posting.

    Thank you.

    Jonathan.
  • Exactly, if you can't change the signal, then just raise the noise. (This applies to politics as well :)
  • Yes, Nicko van Someren demonstrated this in the rump session at the 3rd International Information Hiding Workshop back in September. He showed a CGI program running on a web server being used to find the private key used by that server. This works if you can run a CGI script as the same user as the server (ie. with access to the memory of the server).
  • Are there any good fully-encrypted filesystems out there yet? Linux-compatibility would be a plus...

    Linux can encrypt filesystems (entire disks if you want). Check http://www.kerneli.org/ [kerneli.org] for more information and the required patches.
  • The problem is that no matter how well you hid the key. To use the key you must unhid and decript it into the memory, memory that sometimes is actualy a swap space on the HD, witch usualy is not erased properly after releasing the memory. Got it?

    Even if the memory is in actual memory, there are tools to scan the memory itself, all you need is the correct rigths.


    --
    "take the red pill and you stay in wonderland and I'll show you how deep the rabitt hole goes"

  • I read the article [ncipher.com] in the nCifer site. And by the looks of it you must have the ability to run software on the server to be able to actualy find a key.

    The vulnability described is a way to scan memory and finding a private key in the middle of it. Since most servers, even the NT ones :-), have strict security on who can run and who can access memory this would be no problem for most of the server.

    The major problem I see is the virtual servers that hold many sites into a single machine. Every site owner have access to run programs in the machine, if those sites are not properly secured one site owner could be able to exploit some known hole to be able to scan memory is search for other site owner's keys.


    --
    "take the red pill and you stay in wonderland and I'll show you how deep the rabitt hole goes"

  • How about, first the program generates a lot of valid assembly code of the server's processor, then assembles it, and chooses various assembled bytes as the key? (New meaning to "large instruction set"...)

    Certainly hard to find a key through what looks like valid executable binary code...
  • This is just evidence that you are probably no safer giving out your credit card info over the internet than you are safe from getting mugged in a large city.

    This is a very good point. Just as I wouldn't stop going into the city and carrying cash just because I might get mugged doesn't mean that I might stop using credit cards online because I might have my credit information stolen.

    Oh, wait. This wasn't your point at all. Sorry

  • by garver ( 30881 ) on Saturday January 08, 2000 @06:25AM (#1392294)

    As I'm reading this article, they are saying that once into a web server, it is easy to search for a key because it is more random then any other data on the disk. Wish I could get paid for these kinds of revelations.

    The solution: don't let anyone into your web server in the first place. I would consider the web server compromised and the keys invalid if someone got in and was able to snoop where the keys were located. Even if you do allow shell access to the web server (a bad idea in my opinion), put the keys in a root read-only directory! I believe the setup instructions for mod_ssl says to set your SSL key as 400, therefore only root can read it.

    This article is irresponsible. They make it sound as if your credit card is already at stake, not just after someone has broken into a web server and stole keys. It is not news that encrypted data is at stake after someone has stole the private key.

  • by fartmaster ( 31343 ) on Saturday January 08, 2000 @05:29AM (#1392295)
    I consider buying things over the web to be in the same league as ordering items over the phone. When people order things over the phone, they are dealing with a PERSON. How do they know that the operator that is taking their order is not going to rip them off, or do something stupid with their credit card number?

    Plus, in both cases you don't know if the credit card information is being STORED properly. I've seen plenty of discount e-com setups that will have a fancy site certificate making it look secure. Then when the form is submited a plain text email gets sent to some email address so that someone can manually punch it in.
  • Most people can get credit cards with 9.9% interest or less.

    I've never seen one even offered for better than about 12%. Unless you're counting those deceptive ads that say 3% APR!!*

    *For 3 months

  • when I use my a credit card online, I use my check card. So there is no interest. The safety of it I'm not very concerned with. If there is a charge on my check card that I didn't make, I just call the bank and they get rid of it.
  • by Haven ( 34895 ) on Friday January 07, 2000 @03:26PM (#1392298) Homepage Journal
    This article was posted at 5:38pm EST. Thats after the stock market closed. I wonder what kind of affect this would have on the "dot com" stocks... This would be a shame considering that the NASDAQ is doing so well lately.
  • "It is also why banks love debit cards - since they are drawn directly on your bank account, there is no limit on your liability risk."

    Not always true. Many banks now restrict your liability to $50 even on a check card (I know mine does), and just as with credit cards, many times will waive the entire liability.

    If they insisted on holding you fully responsible for those debts, they would eventually lose customers. And to most businesses, that's a bad thing.
  • by Hobbex ( 41473 ) on Saturday January 08, 2000 @06:29AM (#1392302)

    The fact that encryption keys can be found in data by looking for strings with higher entropy then usual is not new. I have heard it several times, and I believe that this was how the "NSA_key" thing in the Win2K source code was discovered (remember that, MS let NSA authenticate their own crypto modules and people started screaming backdoor). If I'm not wrong, its even mentioned in 'Applied Cryptography'.

    The article says "root around looking for the keys", which I read as getting root to the server (I mean, who is going to keep code that contains crypto keys globally readable?) and that isn't exactly easy to begin with. And if your hosting server gets rooted your sort of fucked anyways...

    As far as the big deal over Credit Card numbers is concerned, I couldn't agree more. I don't know about you people, but I operate under the assumption that my credit card number is always in the hands of others. I mean, the security of a credit card number rests on the fact that "no one can remember 20 digits." Obscurity would be an infinite step up.

    Credit card numbers can be stolen by anyone who you shop at, anyone who goes through those shops or your trash, anyone who (with a little memorization training) is able to read your card, etc ad infinum. The whole system is based on the fact that credit cards numbers can be stolen but that its cheaper for the companies to take the loss then implement a smarter system. If that doesn't fit you shoe, then there is always cash...

    -
    We cannot reason ourselves out of our basic irrationality. All we can do is learn the art of being irrational in a reasonable way.
  • by zzzeek ( 43830 ) on Saturday January 08, 2000 @07:57AM (#1392304)

    /. should post articles of higher quality than this. This article is very clearly nothing more an ad for a company with a dumb product (I say dumb because there should be a better argument for its usage other than this):

    Van Someren said nCipher decided to go after encryption keys because "we make products that redress these problems." The company offers a hardware solution to the problem of encryption-key security.

    Everyone here should know that "security through obscurity" is a foolish and invalid method of security. This article is particularly annoying with its "submarine" and "cold war" analogies as well as its mention of "increasing hacker ingenuity", as though finding a big file of encryption keys open to all users on a server is some high tech stealth technique from a Harrison Ford movie or something.

  • You probably have more security on line then in real life anyway. Its much easier to read the numbers off a recipt (and alot less technical) then to crack a system.
    About 10 years ago I worked for Radio Shack, there was a POS update to remove the name and address on a credit card recipt. Just imagine how much someone must have had to cause the update, hell, the only thing missing was a social security number.

    The only time I've been a victim of fraud was when I applyed for a mortgage, a month later someone was ordering Lands End and shipping it to Camden.
  • I guess this is an amusing (to those of us without credit cards, anyway) example of that :) Information, by its very nature, stands out from the redundant noise of the background and is hard to hide away.

    It seems to me that it should be possible to interleave the bits of the keys with a large quantity of non-random data, thereby masking its high information content. The trick of course is making the algorithm for which bits are real impossible to brute force. Unlike a one-time pad at least, only the server would need to know, e-commerce customers wouldn't.
  • by wowbagger ( 69688 ) on Saturday January 08, 2000 @05:30AM (#1392321) Homepage Journal
    If I read the article correctly, all this new "method" does is allow you to find the keys once you have cracked the server.


    Well, duh! Once I'm in, you have big problems. So, DON'T LET ME IN


    It is not as though this is a new means to attack a server and gain access, just a way, once you have access, to find what you want.


    And, if you store a bunch of data in compressed format (which also looks pretty random), then the search will be confused.


    "The sky is falling! The sky is falling!" Any modern journalist.

  • "If you *really* want to reduce the average entropy, you can use a full byte '0' or '1' for each bit. or two bytes, or three ... ad infinitum."

    Great, then some skript kiddie will use a tool to look for big-ish files filled with 1s and 0s (no other characters), and some st00pid news server will report it as another "huge hack."
    ---
  • by MobyDisk ( 75490 ) on Saturday January 08, 2000 @06:04AM (#1392324) Homepage
    To re-iterate. There are now two (2) ways to obtain credit card numbers:

    Method #1:
    * Crack into a highly secure server, likely behind a firewall (details left out, this part is easy)
    * Apply heuristics and a random number searching algorithm on the hard drive (heuristics + classic compression algorithms such as LZW will work here)
    * Use the keys to monitor transactions with this server and obtain credit card numbers
    * Use credit card numbers to purchase online pron

    Method #2:
    * Get job at local store for approx. 1 hour
    * Obtain tools: pen, paper, or a good memory
    * Use tools to store credit card numbers
    * Use credit card numbers to purchase online pron

    The opening of this new method, number one (1), could be a serious threat to e-commerce. It makes e-commerce almost 1% as dangerous as physical world purchases! I know I'll never type https:// again and feel safe. I'm doing my purchases with complete safety: over the phone.
  • by Money__ ( 87045 ) on Saturday January 08, 2000 @05:30AM (#1392330)
    From the article:
    Alex Van Someren, president of nCipher in Cambridge, England, said the discovery of a method for retrieving encryption keys revolves around research conducted by his brother Nicko, chief technology officer and co-founder of nCipher, and Adi Shamir of the Weizmann Institute in Israel, co-inventor of the RSA encryption system, the base for much current encryption technology.

    This story reads pretty credible, but I have to wonder where the proof is. The article does draw an interesting analogy about submarines making themselvs more and more quiet untill the only way to "hear" them was to search for the "hole" in the water. They say that this same kind of aproach was used to find keys.

    This tmethidology seems logical, but it's implementation soes not. Does the reasercher point to his finished work?
    _________________________

  • It is also why banks love debit cards - since they are drawn directly on your bank account, there is no limit on your liability risk.

    BZZZT! Wrong....

    I used to work for a small retailer who did some mail order business. About once or twice a year we'd get scammed with a credit card. The customer would complain, and guess who got stiffed for $300? My store did. Not VISA, not Mastercard. They had no control over the transaction, and thus why should they bear responsibility?

    This is the reason why many mail-order outfits do not ship goods to places other than the card's billing address... The card issuer controls that address, so it is slightly secure.

    -cwk.

  • Or store a 128bit key in a 1024bit location, mixing the actual key in with less random bits.
  • I'm not sure what the standard Canadian bank cards do. A "Check Card" is a credit card which extracts directly from your bank account. It's just like a credit card, even has the credit card logo on it, and is accepted anywhere a "normal" credit card is accepted. From the merchant's POV, it IS a credit card transaction. From the user's POV, it's like writing a check, only one which clears a bit faster.
  • by B'Trey ( 111263 ) on Saturday January 08, 2000 @05:50AM (#1392356)
    If slashdot doesn't stop linking to articles that says hackers are computer criminals, I'll stop reading slashdot. *sigh* Why? Because I expect Slashdot to link to truthful stories.

    A hacker IS a computer criminal. Why? Because that's what most people mean when they say it. Words mean whatever people understand them to mean. There is no Official Definitive Dictionary of the English Language somewhere which inscribes in stone the true definition of a word.

    Language eveolves and changes. Just as the geek culture took words from "standard" English and changed their meaning, the non-geeks took one of our words and changed it's meaning. We don't own the langauge any more than they do; their definition of the word is no more incorrect than ours.

    Yeah, I know. Off-topic. -1

  • by smack.addict ( 116174 ) on Saturday January 08, 2000 @06:54AM (#1392358)
    You are spreading ignorance and fear.
    • Most people can get credit cards with 9.9% interest or less.
    • Smart people pay no interest. They pay their credit card bills every month.
    • The safest means of commerce is to give your credit card info out over the internet.
    The safest means of commerce? Yes. You carry $100 on the street and get mugged, you lose $100 (as well as possibly your health or your life). If someone uses your credit card, however, you are liable for *at most* $50 in charges so long as you let the credit card company know.

    Furthermore, transmitting your CC# via SSL is more secure than giving it to a waiter or saying it over the phone.

  • If the problem is that the keys are too random, all that is necessary is to make them arbitrary instead. Rather than a key string of "qliyufg;erqvb qfiyfiv b(&^$E*O11 651" use "the azure frog, jealous of a new day"Or, to get a bit more sophisticated (albeit while reducing the opportunity for creative writing), use an actual section of code as a key.
  • As usual the version of the news published "for the masses" does not actually tell us what is going on. Here is the original paper "Playing Hide and Seek with Stored Keys" [ncipher.com] by Adi Shamir and Nicko van Someren that the article is referring to. It's in PDF format. The abstract says:

    "In this paper we consider the problem of efficiently locating cryptographics keys hidden in gigabytes of data, such as the complete file system of a typical PC. We describe efficient algebraic attacks which can locate secret RSA keys in long bit strings, and more general statistical attacks which can find arbitrary cryptographic keys embedded in large programs. These techniques can be used to apply lunchtime attacks on signature keys used by financial institutes, or to defeat authentication type mechanisms in software packages."

    Now we actually now what this is about. As far as I am concerned, the interesting application would be if No Such Agency sifted communications channels of a planet to find the keys. They can afford to do it if it's computationally cheap enough.

  • I've heard where when people were reporting stolen/lost credits over the phone to a credit card company that the person who was working for the credit card company was using those numbers to make purchases. The purchases were made before the numbers were flagged as lost/stolen. Because they were already lost/stolen all those purchases were just assumed to have been made by the person who stole the credit card. The only way they caught this person was that someone actually had their credit card returned after reporting it lost. And the owner of the credit card knew that the person who found their credit card hadn't made any purchases on it. So the credit card company tracked it down to someone working at the credit card company. So you have more to fear from people on the other end of the line then you do from technology. All this really does is undermine the confidence in credit cards and not e-commerce. Why aren't credit card companies coming out with more secure ways to doing transactions in person/over the phone/online?
  • by Borgy ( 134929 ) on Saturday January 08, 2000 @06:40AM (#1392371)
    If you keep your keys in hexadecimal or base64 rather than binary, then the information content is maintained but is spread across a greater amount of data. This easily defeats the method. If you *really* want to reduce the average entropy, you can use a full byte '0' or '1' for each bit. or two bytes, or three ... ad infinitum.

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