Changing the Ratio of Women In Tech: How Etsy Did It 546
First time accepted submitter occidental writes in about Etsy's push to get more women engineers. "You’ve probably heard of Etsy, the bustling online marketplace for crafters and artists. You probably wouldn’t be surprised to learn that most of its customers are women, both buyers and sellers. Ditto that the Etsy team is a pretty good representation of the Earth’s gender ratio.
Yet when Marc Hedlund took the helm of Etsy’s Product Development & Engineering department, 97% of the engineering department were men. Hedlund realized that in his nearly two decades in IT, he’s hired no more than 20 women for engineering positions. This began to bother him. Especially after his daughter was born."
Anti sexist policies are almost always sexist (Score:5, Insightful)
It's to bad (Score:4, Insightful)
Not so hard really (Score:2, Insightful)
1) Don't be combative (this will get you better male employees as well)
2) Don't allow your team to be combative (mgmt needs to do their job in reigning in aggressive team members)
3) Recognize and punish prejudice in the interview/work place (I've witnessed this several times with some being harder on women for no apparent reason)
That's it really. I've worked with a lot of women in tech, and they do fine. There are some environments though that aren't fitting for ANYONE, and men tend to end up there. Women tend to think about problems differently, which if you are looking for the best team is something you should want. Sadly, those that approach problems differently have tended to be hounded into submission in some work places. It doesn't matter if they're presenting a valid point, the receivers can't seem to process the approach and discount everything. In truth, it's many of the men who have no business being in the roles their in. That have no idea how to handle running a team. Add that to mgmt who never seems to like to put an engineer in their place, or worse, agrees with the hostility and you get a place no one wants to work in.
Re:Anti sexist policies are almost always sexist (Score:2, Insightful)
Then what exactly changes if they were hiring the best people anyways?
Re:Anti sexist policies are almost always sexist (Score:3, Insightful)
And if we lived in a universe where there wasn't an empirically demonstrated bias against women and ethnic minorities (having the same level of suitability) in hiring decisions across almost all fields, you'd have a point. Unfortunately the problem is very real and very well documented, and it's preventing us from hiring optimally, much less fairly.
Affirmative action supposes that the first step to eliminating that bias is to ensure that the individuals making these decisions are representative of the population as a whole.
Re:Anti sexist policies are almost always sexist (Score:4, Insightful)
Expand the pool of candidates applying for the job.
Re:Anti sexist policies are almost always sexist (Score:4, Insightful)
Re:Anti sexist policies are almost always sexist (Score:5, Insightful)
I'm now working in a film VFX company, and the difference is night and day. On the software teams, about 20% of the employees are female, and on the art teams, it's about 50%. The female software devs aren't for show either, they are more than capable of holding their own when it comes to C++/SIMD/GPU/Graphics coding, and it's actually been a really refreshing change from the games industry! Really though, the difference between the two comes down to one thing only. In VFX, women are treated with the respect. In Games, they're often treated as the office oddity.
Headline (Score:3, Insightful)
I think the headline should read:
Changing the ratio of women to men in tech How they did it.
"identified a potential root cause", my ass (Score:3, Insightful)
No, the problem is know-it all, under-socialized people who think their simplistic explanations are genius, and who think women "don't like intense thinking", and who moderate as troll anyone who calls out their misogyny.
People like this are intolerable for women to work with.
Re:Anti sexist policies are almost always sexist (Score:5, Insightful)
Did they not let women apply before?
This means if they get two similarly qualified candidates they will select a woman if their quota needs one. That means males who apply are being discriminated against.
Re:Anti sexist policies are almost always sexist (Score:5, Insightful)
The problem of hiring female engineers happens because there are very few female applicants. I've interviewed one female applicant, ever, in 20 years as an engineer. ONE. I've worked for a number of engineering companies, small and large and I can count on ONE HAND the number of female engineering co-workers I have had, out of hundreds of engineers. They were all good at their jobs. I wouldn't hesitate to hire a woman engineer, if there was one available.
My sister is an engineer and my niece is in engineering school. They are the only two female engineers in my whole extended family, but there are dozens of male engineers, scientists and programmers.
I don't know why, but women, at least in the USA, almost universally lack interest in being engineers. No hiring policy can change that.
Re:Anti sexist policies are almost always sexist (Score:4, Insightful)
If you're talking about the US, then there is no such bias against women.
You see the same lack of women at the bottom of society that you do at the top of society. It's called the Apex Fallacy and it's complete horseshit. You have a different clustering of jobs between men and women and thanks to societal changes that disproportionately reward people at the top, you see a bit of an income disparity between men and women.
Ultimately, if we control for the distribution of income you'll find that the income differences between men and women are quite small indeed, it's just that since income is skewed towards the rich that the men that are poorer than their female counterparts don't add as much to the calculation.
What's more, most college students are female by about a 2:1 ratio and they basically get away with murder. I've sat through many "sex discrimination" lectures over the years which were basically just excuses to bash men for all the imagined slights and to just use sound bite quotes with no understanding of where they came from and why to rationalize it.
Re:Anti sexist policies are almost always sexist (Score:5, Insightful)
So the problem is, people think they are hiring the 'best' people in an unbiased way, but statistically they are not. Addressing that in your hiring process leads to better people because there is a significant talent pool out there who are consistently rated lower then their actual abilities reflect.
Re:Anti sexist policies are almost always sexist (Score:5, Insightful)
A different perspective. (Score:5, Insightful)
I'm a woman and I was recently doing a job search and interviewed at a dozen places before settling on one that I liked (and have since come to love).
It was, overall, a very uncomfortable experience for me. I was, at many of the places, subjected to comments along the lines of "I've worked with a female developer before, and it was really difficult because she didn't have a sense of humor/couldn't take a joke/made us feel like we had to be on our best behavior - would you be like that?" Seriously. I was repeatedly told that one concern was the rest of the team feeling like they might have to walk on eggshells around me.
When I heard these things I essentially shut down the interview and let them know I would not be interested. I explained that I appreciated their honesty, but the fact that they had concerns along those lines made me know it wasn't the place for me, and I thanked them for their time.
It isn't that I don't have a sense of humor, or that I'm easily offended - it's that I really don't want to have to be responsible for all women ever, and I don't want to have to worry that my co-workers are continually holding me accountable or interpreting things I say or do as if I were somehow the same as the other women they had worked with. And despite my shutting it down, I was *still* offered jobs at half the places.
The place that I liked - and have come to love - gender never came up during the interview. We talked about the tech, we talked about the work, we talked about the long term goals for the position, and we talked about the culture. The only time gender has come up was when one of my co-workers, who has a daughter, asked me how I came to get so interested in technology and science because he wanted to encourage his daughter as much as possible without pushing her.
Looking at the comments here, there's a whole lot of "othering" going on. A lot of comments that seem to treat women as members of some kind of hive mind wherein certain behaviors are just expected. This is completely unfair - it would be as unfair as me treating all men like rapists just because some men are. There's also a lot of anger I'm sensing from a lot of the guys - feeling like they're being discriminated against in some cases by quotas (real or imagined) or whatever. You guys are certainly entitled to your anger, just like I'm entitled to be bugged when idiots can't distinguish me from some other woman despite us being entirely different people.
The thing I would recommend to people - all people - is to take everyone you will be dealing with as an individual AS an individual. Just as you wouldn't want to be held responsible for things you had nothing to do with, so, too, other people don't want to be made responsible for everyone who shares their gender, race, ethnicity, or other arbitrary trait.
For the record, I think hiring quotas are stupid. Affirmative action is "good intention, wretched implementation." That said, the people saying they've been turned down for developer/in demand jobs because they are white/male/other majority class must be incredibly unimpressive candidates. If you were such hot shit that you "deserved" the job, you would have gotten the job. Businesses are in business to make MONEY, they will hire whomever will make them MONEY, and if you couldn't make it clear you would make them more MONEY than some other random person, that's on you.
Re:Anti sexist policies are almost always sexist (Score:5, Insightful)
Re:Anti sexist policies are almost always sexist (Score:5, Insightful)
A better solution is to just pick the best candidate no matter what. If that means having to hide the candidates identity that is fine.
Re:Anti sexist policies are almost always sexist (Score:5, Insightful)
Re:Anti sexist policies are almost always sexist (Score:5, Insightful)
Then use some actual random function. A coin toss should be fine. That will at least be fair.
Re:Anti sexist policies are almost always sexist (Score:4, Insightful)
The correct solution to that is to remove names from resumes all together.
Again the problem is the process and the solution is not an even worse process but a better one.
Re:Anti sexist policies are almost always sexist (Score:3, Insightful)
It is generally not that complicated... when women complain about how they are being treated, listen and adjust. Unfortunately the typical response in the industry is to tell them to stop complaining.
Because that's what we tell the men too. So actually, listening to the women and adjusting is being sexist...because nobody affords the men the same treatment.
Re:Anti sexist policies are almost always sexist (Score:2, Insightful)
So, if they're similarly qualified, then the decision is arbitrary on the individual hire level. All things being equal, they choose the woman to balance out the systemic bias in the system. Which they do because, y'know, there's a massive fucking systemic bias in the system, which that woman had to overcome just to get in the running for the job.
So, it's fair in that situation (given that they're equally qualified, and have to be by design of the law), and it's fair on a macro level, because it's in balance against the proven unfair advantage that males have in the hiring equation. So quit whining.
Re:Anti sexist policies are almost always sexist (Score:5, Insightful)
Don’t lower hiring standards, or make exceptions or compromises.
Bring in as many candidates as possible.
My take away from this is that while the historical hiring they did was "best candidates available" they realized that there were things they could do to expand the hiring pool that may change how many of the "best candidates available" are women.
Not surprising to see a company try to improve their hiring practices.
Doesn't mean they are going to discriminate against men.
Cry me a river. (Score:3, Insightful)
Did they not let women apply before?
This means if they get two similarly qualified candidates they will select a woman if their quota needs one. That means males who apply are being discriminated against.
As a man, I will say this to those "men" who feel discriminated or unfairly treated by that practice: Go to the Cry-Me-A-River Department and send us a violin-shaped postcard when you get there. Srlsly, man the f* up.
A little bit of social adjustment to achieve some fairness that has been conspicuously absent in the history of humankind will inevitably hit someone else. Bohoho, big deal. World is unfair, but it has always been more favorable to us men than to women. It doesn't take a lot of testicular fortitude to accept this fact graciously.
If a man gets passed in favor of an equally qualified woman, and said man cannot find another job in this male-predominant industry, then chances are there is something wrong with him.
It is absolutely pathetic to see men born and raised in one of the most prosperous nations in the history of mankind getting their panties all curled up because a company in a male-predominant, highly-paid industry decides to favor women in their hiring process. It speaks volumes about them, and that wasn't meant as a compliment.
Re:Anti sexist policies are almost always sexist (Score:3, Insightful)
Then use some actual random function. A coin toss should be fine. That will at least be fair.
It is also fair to introduce some bias to ensure a more equitable distribution of jobs among equally qualifiable candidates of different genders. As a man, I don't get why this is so treatening or unfair to some of you guys. Seriously.
Re:Anti sexist policies are almost always sexist (Score:4, Insightful)
Problem is a lot of managers don't recognize when the best candidate is a woman. Women are different to men, obviously, and thus have different strengths. These are often not things you can put in a list of bullet points, and the guys doing the hiring tend to compare the candidates to the guys they already have.
There are many subtle reasons why women are still not equal to men in the world of work. Turns out merely trying hard to be fair and equal is not enough, at least for today. Hopefully in the future when the balance is closer to 50/50 it will be.
Re:Anti sexist policies are almost always sexist (Score:5, Insightful)
That is incredibly ignorant. No, women were NOT being 'discriminated against'. There just weren't anywhere near as many women applicants. The tech sector is rife with complaints about the lack of women, and yet, women go into technical fields and apply for jobs in that area a fractional percent as often as men do.
If you have a pool of applicants, hire the most qualified ones. If women are pissed they weren't chosen, they should work harder and get better at what they do so they will be chosen the next time. It's better than complaining that they didn't get the job due to lack of a penis.
If there is any evidence of impropriety or discrimination, that shit should be dealt with immediately. Short of that, don't hire based on gender or race. Hire based on ability.
Re:Cry me a river. (Score:5, Insightful)
I agree. Are men being "discriminated against" in these circumstances? Is it "unfair?" Maybe. But my father raised me to be a man, and one of his frequent lessons was "life isn't fair."
Part of being a man is accepting that life isn't fair. You have to shoulder responsibilities and make sacrifices that others do not. We do not complain that women and children get the lifeboats before we do. We do not complain about opening doors for women, or giving up our seats on busses so they can sit, or picking up the check. When the nutjob opened fire in the Colorado theater, many of the men (boys, even) died using their bodies to shield others. Those were Men.
This does not mean women are not ALLOWED to do these things. By all means, grab the check. By all means, fight for your country (my wife was in the Army for 9 years and carried her M-16 through Bosnia and Kosovo, helping protect the people there from each other). If you are a man who feels "threatened" by strong women, then you are not much of a man.
So men, do not whine about "discrimination." It's unmanly. Suck it up, find a better job, or make your own job. Women, what you choose to do is up to you. I hope you choose to compete as the best candidate for whatever position you apply. If you don't, and would prefer special treatment, that's fine. Ignore the crying whiners on their way out. They're not really men. And yes, I'll hold the door open for you.
Re:Anti sexist policies are almost always sexist (Score:2, Insightful)
I can say that I have never heard a man in an office declare that he should mutilate women's sexual organs. I have heard more than one woman comment that they should mutilate men's sexual organs.
I can say that I have never been to a children's at a museum where the event coordinator wore a "Guys Rule!" T-Shirt. I can't say the same about "Girls Rule!" and other gender biased shirts.
I can say that I have never been told "We will not consider women for this position". I have been told "We will not consider men for this position".
I could go on, but the point is that male bashing is not the solution to end gender bias. You are part of the problem.
Re:Anti sexist policies are almost always sexist (Score:4, Insightful)
Re:Anti sexist policies are almost always sexist (Score:5, Insightful)
You just redefine what 'best' means.
Not necessarily. If you improve benefits in such a way that the job becomes more appealing to women, more qualified women will apply. Child care, for instance. It would be a benefit for any employee that has children but, statistically, women are more likely to be single parents and take greater responsibility for children in a two parent family.
Re:Anti sexist policies are almost always sexist (Score:4, Insightful)
This. The most uncomfortable sexual discussions ever held in my presence, in the workplace, were from women. I have been subject to sexual harassment at work, and it was from a woman. Shit goes both ways, the real kicker is that some women think they are doing men a favor by being hypersexual in the workplace. How retarded is that?
andy
Re:Anti sexist policies are almost always sexist (Score:4, Insightful)
That's the thing, though - telling people to just suck it up and deal is a shitty response because it basically lowers everyone.
Why should anyone, regardless of gender, tolerate being treated poorly where they work? There's no law of physics that states that work has to be a soul destroying experience or that employees need to take shit and like it.
I find it pretty depressing that so many people are behaving like putting up with abuse is a *good* thing.