2013 H-1B Visa Supply Nearly Exhausted 428
CowboyRobot writes with news on the FY2013 allocation of H-1B visas. From the article: "As of June 1, the government had issued 55,600 standard H-1B visas out of the annual allotment of 65,000, according to United States Immigration and Citizenship Services (USCIS). The feds also issued 18,700 H-1B visas reserved for graduates of advanced degree programs in the U.S., out of 20,000. " CowboyRobot continues, "Last year work visas did not run out until late November, but this year the pool of visas is almost entirely claimed and it's still only June. One interpretation of this is that the tech industry is hiring much more actively than it was a year ago. Some companies, such as Microsoft, have been lobbying to increase the number of available visas (currently limited to 65,000) while others argue that offering visas to foreign workers reduces job prospects for Americans."
A bit more from the article: "Industry lobby group Partnership for A New American Economy last month released a study that claims the U.S. will face a shortage of 224,000 tech workers by 2018 unless immigration rules are loosened."
unsigned short (Score:5, Funny)
Maybe the visa numbers are stored in an unsigned short and can't go above 65535 anyway....
Re:unsigned short (Score:5, Funny)
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You assume government contractors are quick, efficient, and most importantly: competent.
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Where are mod points when I need them? This is funny.
Thank God. (Score:5, Informative)
Re:Thank God. (Score:5, Interesting)
Re:Thank God. (Score:4, Insightful)
This right here would probably solve the issue in one iteration.
Of course it could also backfire and bring our wages down to the point where they still recruit H-1Bs
Re:Thank God. (Score:4, Informative)
I'm pretty sure that in America the H-1Bs have to be paid the same as a local, except that practically they are often underpaid and if they complain they are shipped out before the matter gets to court. There's no point in having laws if they're never enforced.
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"there are no benefits to pay"...of the all the H1B using people I have known, none have been contract workers without benefits.
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A job description can be written in such a way so that the person hired would only be an H-1B visa.
That's what a lot of ignorant people don't understand. They go to the job sites, and see all these postings and think "Wow, there are plenty of jobs out there." What they don't realize is that only a tiny fraction of these postings are actually REAL. With most postings, they already have someone (or, in the case of H1B's, some GROUP) in mind. They're just posting it as a formality. That's why you see so many postings with very specific, sometimes outright bizarre, requirements. These postings are nothing mo
Re:Thank God. (Score:4, Insightful)
There are ways around that. Obviously, a Jr. DBA isn't gonna be paid as much as a Sr. DBA. But who's to know if the guy classified as a Jr. DBA is doing work usually done by a Sr. DBA?
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I think you're missing the point. The point is experienced Sr. level H1B workers are sometimes classified as Jr. level employees in order to pay them less.
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We have a small number of H-1B's and they're totally able to compete. Large Big Box Indian Body Shop brings them over, most are frauds and don't know squat. However, for the few that are the real deal, they quickly realize that they can earn 30, 40 or 50k more by taking their talents elsewhere. I've gotten some of my best developers by taking on their H-1's when they finally clued into the assraping they're getting from the big boys.
L-1's are the real enemy. They are typically brought over on a lower th
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Quoting [swissinfo.ch]:
A third state national can take a job in Switzerland only if a person cannot be hired from within the Swiss labour market or an EU/Efta state. Employers must show that they made “intensive efforts” to find a Swiss, EU/Efta citizen or any foreign national already in Switzerland with a permit to work. Moreover, employers must show why those with priority who applied were not suitable for the job.
Fortunately, some professions, like researchers, are exempt from quotas.
For anyone wishing to dig into details, here's the corresponding legislation [admin.ch] (FR, DE or IT only)
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Law is about BOTH the letter and the law and enforcement.
There's a Few More Factors at Work (Score:5, Interesting)
Most of the comp sci classes I took were filled to the gills, and the program I got into in college was so impacted that I had to go in on another major and switch after the fact.
Right but the top ten percent of your classes is still only ten percent of that. The companies that are arguing for more H-1B visas are licking their lips at countries that have a top ten percent they can still tap. The government likes it because it equates to a brain drain with the added benefit that the really smart ones actually get to stay. "The cream of the crop" doesn't just apply to American masses and I'm sure these H-1B employees help them toward their diversity and EEO goals.
The willingness to work for less is just icing on the cake. The reason Microsoft is railing for more H-1B visas is simple: they win as far as they can tell. What critics might be correct about though, is that this is being used to learn how Americans do business and then move these workers back to the foreign country and lobby for outsourcing after mimicking their American counterparts [wikipedia.org]. This is evident in stats like this:
In 2006, these [outsourcing] firms collectively were issued 19,512 of the 65,000 H-1B visas granted, with 4 outsourcing firms among the top 5 receivers of H-1B visas. These are Infosys, Satyam Computer Services, Tata Consultancy Services, and Wipro Technologies. Critics have argued that granting H-1B visas to these outsourcing firms is not the real intent of the H-1B Visa program.
So, even worse for American workers and unemployment is that it could eventually lead to even more off-shoring of work.
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And in addition to all that, the H1B people's residence in the U.S. depends on their employers sponsorship. They are indentured and we are forced to play at that level. They are scabs.
Re:There's a Few More Factors at Work (Score:5, Insightful)
But government doesn't have to sponsor that.
There is *no* reason that Government has to be cheerleader of multinational corporations. I know that most people almost take it as a given, silent assumption these days, but if a corporation is doing something bad for the country there is no need for government to encourage it, and that is what is happening with H1-Bs and our tax code right now. Hell.. if a corporation is doing something absolutely harmful, government can END that corporation. Most people seem to believe in the back of their minds that corporations are somehow an idea handed down by God... they're not. They don't exist without government of some sort.
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H-1B is a scam by which white collar companies (not blue collar, because they aren't cool enough)
Jobs that can be outsourced(relatively successful in manufacturing[and if you choose the CNMI you can even use 'made in USA' stickers while paying at roughly Chinese rates!], rather a mixed record in white-collar tech) or done under-the-table with reasonable safety for the people who matter(Gosh, officer, I had no idea that my janitorial contractor's subcontracted cleaning crew might not be 100% on the up-and-up immigration wise... I figured that they were so cheap because they just had a good work ethic...
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The H-1B is for individuals at the top of their respective field, and it only accounts for 65,000 out of more than 6 million visas alloted per year. Say what you will about work visas in general, and granted the H-1B lasts longer than most other work visas, but H-1B visas are not where I would begin making cuts! They allow us to sap the smartest minds from other coutries, and use them for our own benefit, to benefit our own industries and own economy.
Re:Thank God. (Score:4, Interesting)
That might be what H1B is supposed to be used for, but it is really used to get cheap IT folks. I have had to work with some of these folks and if they work for our customer who hired a contracting firm, they suck. The direct hire ones are fine, but all the ones coming from the usual suspect Indian staffing firms are terrible.
"The goal is not to find a qualified american" (Score:5, Interesting)
As it says "Immigration attorneys from Cohen & Grigsby explains how they assist employers in running classified ads with the goal of NOT finding any qualified applicants, and the steps they go through to disqualify even the most qualified Americans in order to secure green cards for H-1b workers. See what Bush and Congress really mean by a "shortage of skilled U.S. workers." Microsoft, Oracle, Hewlett-Packard, and thousands of other companies are running fake ads in Sunday newspapers across the country each week.
Here's a video of one of their conferences. It's pretty harsh.
How to put out fake ads, how to find ways to disqualify qualified americans.
Quote" The goal is not to find a qualified and interested worker"
http://youtu.be/TCbFEgFajGU [youtu.be]
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See what Bush and Congress really mean by a "shortage of skilled U.S. workers." Microsoft, Oracle, Hewlett-Packard, and thousands of other companies are running fake ads in Sunday newspapers across the country each week.
The sad thing is the American university system is complicit in the scam too. A lot of colleges and universities continue to lure students into college (and often into deep student loan debt) by talking about all the great job opportunities available--citing all the same bullshit "worker shortage" figures that the corporations use to lie to Congress. Just the other day, I saw an ad for a local tech school that talked about "severe worker shortages" in tech fields, implying that if you got your degree from t
Re:Thank God. (Score:5, Insightful)
I used to feel this way, too. That is, until I tried to go about filling some vacant developer positions.
The company I work for is located near New York City, so there's presumably a big field of qualified applicants within a 50-100 mile radius, right?
Wrong.
We got a lot of resumes, all right. We weren't even against hiring someone straight out of college, if they were competent and willing to learn. But what I noticed was that the vast majority of resumes were from immigrants, primarily from China and India, though there were a few other countries in the mix. Native-born Americans just don't seem all that interested in writing software. I admit the stuff I work on isn't sexy--it's healthcare software, not something sold to home users. Even so, you'd think more people would be interested in a steady job in a growth field, yet almost all the interest is from people who emigrated here. We don't go out of our way to give jobs to immigrants, we treat all applicants equally and give them a fair shake based on their experience, how they interview, and how they code.
I don't know, maybe all the white guys (let's face it, that's what we're really talking about) only want to work on video games or something.
I did look at some degree statistics recently and saw that computer science degrees (and engineering degrees in general) are quite a small slice of the overall college education pie. You know what most people are going to college for now? Business and law. Everyone wants to either be a CEO or a lawyer.
Anyway, I wish H1Bs weren't necessary, but from what I've seen we really do have a shortage of qualified computer science graduates. What I assume happened is that the dotcom crash put an entire generation off of pursuing CS. The only people going into it now are those with a passion for it, and that's apparently not enough to meet the demand.
Re:Thank God. (Score:4, Insightful)
Resurrecting this long-dormant account to respond to this trolling:
Firstly, speaking as an H-1B holder, the law *requires* that H-1B workers are paid the average salary or better for their job title in their location -- e.g. an H-1B worker hired as a "junior software engineer" in San Francisco cannot be paid less than $90,000. It is therefore mathematically impossible for H-1B workers to lower the average wage paid to tech workers. If you're curious about what H-1B wages are like near you, you can look them up here: http://www.flcdatacenter.com/ [flcdatacenter.com]
Secondly, speaking as a co-founder of a startup, I can assure you that the skills gap is extremely real. Merely having a CS degree does not impart you with some magical ability to write quality software. The world is full of really terrible coders, and almost no good ones. It is extremely hard to hire right now.
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Re:Thank God. (Score:4, Insightful)
Re:Thank God. (Score:5, Interesting)
Just admit it. You hire whoever does a good enough job for the least amount of money. Can you at least be honest about this? It's generally how business works.
In my experience with several medium to large companies, the mantra is always "get the best person you can". I've never had *any* pressure to settle for the candidate who wants $80K instead of $90K. But the person that wants (and may well deserve) $125K isn't going to fit my budget. HR doesn't get involved as long as the offer I am making is within the salary range for the position, and finance doesn't get involved unless I am clearly blowing my budget - but no one is going after me because I budgeted the position at $88K and spent $90K. A bigger issue for me is that I don't want to bring in somebody making $120K if the average salary is $90K, because unless it is clear to everybody that the person is really worth the extra bump, I am creating an equity issue that leads to a bunch of unhappy people down the road.
I have no opinion about the quality of H-1B visas versus local candidates. To get hired they have to be good enough to make up for any language difficulties, so the bar may be a little higher overall. But I will say that someone who has the ambition and drive to leave their home country and culture and come to the US has already shown more ambition and willingness to take a risk than most local candidates. Not a knock on the locals, just a recognition that the immigrants are a self selected pool that have already demonstrated willingness to go to some lengths for their career.
Re:Thank God. (Score:5, Insightful)
You do realize you just explained why the process drives down wages right? Your HR department might not fight with you over the differences in 80 to 90k but over time as the average is lowered, 110 becomes the new 120.
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Increasing the size of the labor pool does drive down wages, no doubt about it. But I was addressing the perception that at the point of hire all that matters is the price tag, and not the applicant. In my experience it is the opposite - get the best candidate you can, even if you have to spend more than planned.
The company I work at has skipped annual raises twice now since the great recession. They don't ask people to taken an explicit pay cut, but by eliminating raises they have effectively done the s
Re:Thank God. (Score:5, Informative)
A bigger issue for me is that I don't want to bring in somebody making $120K if the average salary is $90K
And the big problem with H1B visas is that they artificially DRIVE DOWN the average salary (much as illegal workers do too).
I'll give you a very concrete example. When I was in college, I used to work farm labor during the summers. This was before the glut of illegals started coming up heavily in the area. At that time, farm labor paid a very respectable $7 an hour (one of the best local salaries an unskilled worker could get). Just a few years later, I started to see more and more illegals working those same fields I had. I was talking to an old friend from the area and asked him if he was still working during the summers. He told me that the standard salary had dropped to $4-$5 an hour for the same work we used to do for $7. The good jobs disappeared because the greedy piece-of-shit farmers in the area knew they could hire illegals that cheap easily (and make no mistake about it, the "noble" American farmer is one of the greediest pieces of shit you will ever encounter in your life). And I bet those same farmers would have raised hell if there had been a crackdown on illegals, complaining to the government that they "just couldn't find workers" (at $4-$5 and hour, of course).
Price Controls (Score:3)
And the big problem with H1B visas is that they artificially DRIVE DOWN the average salary
I would say it is the reverse. Limiting imigration into this country artificially drives up the average salary. It isn't natural for someone in country a to be paid less than someone in country b when they are doing the same work. The fact that you feal entitled to have your salary subsidized by the goverment is ridiculous. Your not entitled to the handout the goverement is giving you.
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Would you like some more money or special dispensations?
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Except for the gated communities.
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Re:Thank God. (Score:4, Interesting)
Sweeping generalization, I spent 3 months in Hyderabad training a team, then another 9 months working with said team back home. It was one of the most painful experiences of my life, the concept of learning on the job and thinking outside of the box seemed so far away from these guys. However, by what you listed above, I don't believe you are an indian, I'd go with asain. Most of the indian's (H1B or not) are also very lazy, not all, just most. You talk about strive, which makes me think you are part of an east asain country. In which case I say fair game and learn how to think outside of the box.
By the way, I graduated High School with an extremely low gpa (barely graduating), dropped out of college, missed only one question on the SAT, scored over 100 on the AMC, speak fluent Japanese, English, and conversational french. To graduate high school in the US you are required to take a foreign language (not claiming that would make you fluent), arts class, and are asked to think in more than a logical structure. It's part of why we (in the US) are complaining about No Child Left Behind. It focuses on standardized tests, I'd rather solve a word problem which makes me think how to solve it and gives reality to it, than have to just solve a problem laid out before me.
We emphasize every kid is different here, then every kid is the same to be taught the same way. It really doesn't work that way, and it's what brings the uniqueness of an American to the problem. While coding may be repetition, how to approach a problem should be thought out.
Lastly, communication is key, while you may have the language down, if people can't understand you then you might as well be dead wood for anything beyond code monkey. I've met a lot of H1B visas that I couldn't understand for the life of me. Understand this is after living in India, living in Tokyo, living in the Netherlands. This is our problem with you guys, but as all Americans don't fit your case, neither does all H1B visas meet my above case. I've met some wonderful H1B visas that are simply amazing at coding. Far better than I will ever be, and to them I say "great job", but they also usually make more than I do so your point of being better for less doesn't really hold water. Or maybe it does, just not in my own anecdotal (or the stereotypical) background.
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I hire H-1Bs, I hire Americans. Whoever is best for the job.
Yeah... I'll bet... [youtube.com]
Re:Thank God. (Score:5, Insightful)
Most of the comp sci classes I took were filled to the gills
and guess what... 95% of you suck. "Comp sci classes I took" sounds like a real serious education.
I hire H-1Bs, I hire Americans. Whoever is best for the job.
And if 95% of the H1-Bs didn't suck, I wouldn't complain about the program. The stated case for H1-B is to allow highly skilled workers with skills not found in the US to enter and work here. The reality of the situation is that it's a program to drive down prices for tech workers by hiring mostly unskilled workers, all the while treating them as indentured servants.
Re:Thank God. (Score:5, Insightful)
There's an amazing amount of prejudice in HR, where they believe that Indian workers are smarter and work harder than American citizens. I've met a couple of examples that prove that such thoughts are unwarranted. Sometimes an American can do a better job, even without a degree from Hyderabad.
Re:Thank God. (Score:5, Interesting)
and guess what... 95% of you suck. ...
This is because people think they know computers because they can make their way around a "pointy-clicky" interface and know how to google things. High School graduation and/or collage enrolment day comes around and they say to themselves, "Hey, I bet I could make a mint in computer science. I think I'll major in that." They then, proceed to "google" and cheat their way though the classes, not really understanding what they're being taught.
Computer science, like all the sciences, is not something you can learn on a whim just because you want to. In order to be proficient at it, you need the skills to do so, and those are not something you can learn, they are built up with years of practice and experience. By the time collage rolls around, you either have them or you don't. It's too late to acquire them now. You can, however, put off collage and spend the next five to ten years acquiring them, then get your CS degree and be good at your job. Or, you know, choose a major you have the skills for.
don't have the basic knowledge as CS it not IT (Score:3)
and you need to look at the way you do screening and look at people who did not go to college / went to a tech school as well.
Hire the unemployed (Score:3, Insightful)
I know this will sound crazy, and I'm just spitballing here, but bear with me.
There is a large group of people in this country trying to find jobs. Some have been out of work for months, if not years, while others are looking to move on with their career. Tech companies are complaining they can't find anyone which is why they have to go the H-1B visa route
Here comes the crazy part. Someone needs to figure out a way to get the people who are out of work in touch with these companies who are "desperate" to fill these open positions. It's a win-win situation. People who are out of work get to go back to work, and companies get to fill these open positions.
I'm not capable of figuring out how to do this so someone else will have to do the heavy lifting, but I assure you, if there is some way this can be done, they will be given laurels by the tech industry.
Re:Hire the unemployed (Score:5, Informative)
Someone needs to figure out a way to get the people who are out of work in touch with these companies who are "desperate" to fill these open positions. It's a win-win situation.
Won't work. Many of those Americans aren't skilled in tech, and none of them are willing to be treated as slaves. That means that they'll have the temerity to demand proper training and pay! That would never do, as it might slightly cut into the fat bonuses given to part of the 1% lording it over the tech industry...
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If people in San Francisco are asking $140k/year for entry-level software engineering, perhaps it's because you can't pay rent on a decent place to live in San Francisco with a lower salary than that. I suggest you simply move your business out of San Francisco, to the rest of the country where median pay for software engineers overall is $90k/year, median pay for entry-level if $65k/year, and people can actually live on those salaries.
Re:Hire the unemployed (Score:5, Informative)
These companies aren't hiring anyone that they would have to train unless they're just looking for an H1B worker. I work for a large multinational company in the U.S. and I have seen the job postings they put out. They're so full of precise specifics that the worker absolutely must have that an American engineer won't be able to fit the bill. Then they hire the H1B from the overseas office that they had in mind in the first place (and who fit the onerous job requirements exactly, strangely enough) and pay him less. It's a scam. What we need is a nice, well-funded PAC for IT workers and engineers that can lean on the lawmakers and tell Oracle and Micro$oft to get bent. The only way to get the lawmakers to listen to us is to bribe them with campaign contributions. It sucks, but that's the system we have in this country.
Oh, and this Project for a New American Economy reminds me a lot of the Project for a New American Century, which brought us the Iraq war.
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They're so full of precise specifics that the worker absolutely must have that an American engineer won't be able to fit the bill. Then they hire the H1B from the overseas office that they had in mind in the first place (and who fit the onerous job requirements exactly, strangely enough) and pay him less.
Yep. That's exactly how it works. If you have any doubts about that, watch this. [youtube.com]
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IANAE but my understanding is that 'the market' works under the premise that supply will increase to the level required by demand, and prices will be set wherever the points meet.
If the situation is that there are people in the US who qualify for the jobs, then the industry must not be willing to pay enough to get these people to work.
If the situation is that there are not enough people in the US who qualify for the jobs, then we should see industry paying much more than would otherwise be expected to fill
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This idea is based on the assumption that corporations want to find these people. That's not a good assumption.
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They're in touch. HR departments find excuses to skip over qualified American workers and sponsor as many H1Bs as they are allowed. I've seen it firsthand. Try to prove it, though. The game is rigged.
We need some big new powerful unions in this country.
Re:Hire the unemployed (Score:5, Informative)
AC wrote:
>Americans ask for more money than they are worth.
No, Americans ask for more money than H1B visa holders are willing to work for. Wages as a share of the GDP peaked in 1972 in the U.S. yet profits over-all are still going up --- H1B visas are a tiny part of how corporations are able to get more work done for less money paid so as to maximize profit.
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>Americans ask for more money than they are worth.
No, Americans ask for more money than H1B visa holders are willing to work for.
Isn't this how a free market economy determines prices? The point at which supply and demand meet sets the price. It seems like people are complaining about the supply of labor being made available.
Nothing but market dynamics are forcing anyone to leave India, or China, or any of those places and come over here. It seems to me that if anything, the fact that there is an H1B system, and immigration system at all, is actually a barrier to trade which overvalues American talent versus equivalent talent fr
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Re:Hire the unemployed (Score:4, Insightful)
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Except for the fact that the corporations are charging higher prices in America.
In many cases due to legal protection by the goverment.
I can't go to another country and import the inexpensive products they sell there like I should be able to in an open market. Instead we pay 5 to 20 times as much for the same products.
The problem is fixing itself. Labor rates are skyrocketing over there.
Indian workers are much more picky than they used to be.
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Ok, but let's equalize all prices across the world then. Sure, American workers cost more, but they also need more money just to survive. Food and housing is pretty expensive in the US. And if labor costs are to be equalized across the world, then why not equalize everything else too? Like the price of medicine, software,... Why are corporations allowed to determine where their products can be traded after they sell them, but Americans aren't allowed to say who can immigrate into their country?
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Also, Americans often have huge student loans to pay back. I don't know about Indians, who get the vast majority of H1-Bs, but at least Europeans often got free, or very cheap, education, so are able to work for less.
So to simplify things only slightly, H1-B is a scheme for US companies to siphon out foreign tax money. Nice!
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Its relatively cheap, usually financed by parents with the expectation that you will finance your kids education and so on, hence loans are minimal at best
And, I doubt many
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- Americans also have family to take care of (say the H-1B sends money back home... that money goes way further than it would for an American doing the same)
- Americans also have student loans, which is constantly rising due to the nature of how College tuition / loan stuff works
Re:Hire the unemployed (Score:4, Insightful)
You know they could be bringing these people in because all the decent, diligent, intelligent and reliable local workers have jobs already and those without jobs are crap at what they do. Or am I mistaken and actually all Americans, even the thick and stupid ones, are better workers than highly-educated and motivated people from countries like India or from within the EU?
Just a thought.
Re:Hire the unemployed (Score:4, Interesting)
You know they could be bringing these people in because all the decent, diligent, intelligent and reliable local workers have jobs already and those without jobs are crap at what they do. Or am I mistaken and actually all Americans, even the thick and stupid ones, are better workers than highly-educated and motivated people from countries like India or from within the EU?
Just a thought.
You only have a point if you can quantify the items in bold above. The fact is that is that:
1. Not everybody that is currently unemployed is crappy at what they do.
2. Not everybody currently employed is good at what they do.
3. Not every H1 Visa worker is highly educated and motivated.
4. Not every H1 Visa worker is crappy at what he does.
All you are doing is building a counter-argument based on simpleton-level emotion. Markets, even free markets, do not operate in a vacuum. They operate (or should operate) in the context of national interests. Every developed country sans the US operates on this premise.
So when you have a H1 Visa worker coming here, he should only come here when it is amply demonstrated that indeed, he is above average.
This is not the case. We should not be replacing our crappy people with crappy people from other countries. We should replace them (or more appropriately, enhance our intelligentsia) with actual foreign talent. And that brings me to the next hole in your argument:
There is no guaranteed path to residency (and eventual citizenship) for H1 Visa workers. As it is, it is a system of exploitation of foreign workers (talented or crappy) at the expense of our workers (talented and crappy.)
The situation is so bad that even legal residents or naturalized citizens of Indian ancestry are now looked over in favor of H1 visa workers. I KNOW THIS FOR A FACT.
So it is not just the mythical phat American as you put it that gets screwed by this. The talented foreign nationals that have now made the US their permanent home and country are also being systematically sidelined.
The H1 Visa system needs to be revampted, the quotas reduced into formulas dependend on the current national situation and unemployment/employment levels. It should not be static.
Furthermore, the requirements should be stringent so that only the real talented come aboard. Moreover, there must be greater guarantees that H1 Visa workers do not become hostages to contracting agencies, cramping them into dorms, threatened with deportation if they don't meet the unpaid 60hr/week work quota (yes it happens in US soil, a lot.)
Most importantly, there should be easier paths for legal residency (and nationalisation) for H1 Visa workers who wish to stay permanently.
Your pick.
Re:Hire the unemployed (Score:5, Insightful)
I'm an older worker (47) and be more than happy to take what I can get. I'd be more than happy to learn a new language, platform, tools, etc .... I'm just a C,C++, Java, SQL guy on UNIX and Windows so my skills are out of date and no one uses those languages and platforms anymore. And I haven't been working for a few years in the industry - just developing software for my businesses that tanked in the economy.
I hear this sort of thing all the time when I'm intervewing candidates. People say to me, Yeah, I'd really like to learn [Java,C#,Ruby,SomeOtherLanguage]. Then I ask them what they think about [FreeDevelopmentEnvironmentForThatLanguage]. And they say "Oh, I haven't downloaded that yet." .
Next...
If you've been unemployed for months and have nothing to show for that time, you're probably not somebody I want to hire.
Re:Hire the unemployed (Score:4, Insightful)
If you've been unemployed for months and have nothing to show for that time, you're probably not somebody I want to hire.
I was an admin for 5 years and have worked in IT for more than a decade. Two years ago I lost my job because it was a 'cost cutting move' by the board of the group I worked for. When I went looking for work, I looked at any IT jobs I could qualify for. Which goes from helpdesk work up to admin work of various types. Any job less than my last I heard back from said I was overqualified and wouldn't hire me. Any job equal to or slightly more than I had done wanted a degree higher than what I had and wouldn't even give me an interview.
I did plenty of things during that period, but none of them where specifically for any company. I even tried to do a bit of consulting and had a little bit of work as such. However after a point everyone assumes that if you weren't working for another company during that time you did nothing and you therefor are not hire-able. In the end I found a college that was willing to give me a job as a onsite technician for pennies and it looks like I'll have to rebuild my entire career because a change in the market. That is frankly silly.
Re:There you go! BINGO! (Score:4, Insightful)
So, I'll pose the same question to you... In the last two years, what have you accomplished? What non-profit did you help with their IT needs? What open-source software did you contribute to? What project did you begin in the hopes that it will be the next big thing?
Your problem may be your attitude, not your skills.
Duh! (Score:5, Funny)
Just go to H1B v6 and you'll get a HUGE number of available slots.
Shortage by 2018 (Score:3)
Er... Is it really that hard to train up some good people in six years? Surely the last remaining world super-power could manage that?
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Re: free market will resolve all human problems (Score:2)
Never mind the human wreckage along the way.
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Sure, we could apply the radical theory that markets are reasonably good at balancing supply and demand, and tell the people whining to Congress that if their supply is too low, they just aren't paying enough, or doing enough to bolster supply(eg. by hiring candid
Re:Shortage by 2018 (Score:4, Insightful)
..apparently the answer is Yes
The world last Superpower is only that based on it's military, which is based on manufacturing strength
The more that is outsourced and done elsewhere the less US corporations will have to deal with US workers ... you already have one of the largest differences in Pay between Management and Workers, weak or non-existent unions to protect workers rights..... I see a future when a few corporations will get very rich, and the US population will be out of work
Re:Shortage by 2018 (Score:4, Informative)
Surely the last remaining world super-power could manage that?
Well yes, they probably could, but I fail to see what China has to do with any of this...
Things aren't as they seem (Score:5, Interesting)
When my former employer started hiring H1B, the government did a check of salaries compared to market values in the area. The other programmers had to get a raise. There are laws about salary, especially for the guy managing an H1B employee which turned out to be me. He also turned out to be one of the best programmers I've worked with.
I used to have strong feelings against the H1B program, but after seeing jobs unfilled at several employers now, sometimes it makes sense.
I have a cunning plan (Score:3)
"Industry lobby group Partnership for A New American Economy last month released a study that claims the U.S. will face a shortage of 224,000 tech workers by 2018 unless more native workers are taken on and trained!
fixed that for them, I wonder if they appreciate my contribution on their behalf.
bullcrap (Score:2)
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You can be sure that Lawyers will always be a protected class.
Obligatory Southpark meme (Score:5, Funny)
H-1bs Drive Out Skilled But Not Unskilled (Score:5, Informative)
Study: When highly skilled immigrants move in, highly skilled natives move out [eurekalert.org]
In the first study to measure the temporary impact of highly skilled immigrants on native populations, University of Notre Dame Economist Abigail Wozniak and Fairfield University's Thomas J. Murray — a former Notre Dame graduate student — found that when highly skilled immigrants move to a city or town, the U.S. natives in that area who are also highly skilled tend to move away. However, the study found that the same immigrant group's presence decreases the chances that low-skilled natives would leave.
"High skill" refers to those having some post-secondary education or above, while "low skill" are those with a high school diploma or less education. "Natives" refer to U.S. citizens by birth.
According to the study, which will appear in the July issue of the Journal of Urban Economics, smaller and more geographically isolated cities show the biggest impacts. There was little difference in results between growing versus declining cities.
"We conclude that natives with less education take longer to adjust to the arrival of immigrants in their local labor market than do natives with more education," Wozniak says. "These effects are more pronounced in smaller, more isolated communities, from where it would be more difficult and expensive for less skilled natives to relocate."...
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Just like American businesses (Score:4, Insightful)
First they whine about having to pay too many taxes, and they complain about being oppressed by too many regulations. They want to pay no taxes and have next to no government interference in their profiteering.
They want to pay zero taxes, yet they want the government to give them a strong military, police and justice system so their profits and interests are adequately protected. They want to pay nothing to the IRS, yet want a well designed and functioning infrastructure in which to operate.
And now they want to create a false sense of emergency with regard to their work force, to hire complacent, affordable foreign workers via H1-B, rather than hire domestic workers some of whom may be unemployed by no fault of their own.
Why is it we continue bending over backwards for these unpatriotic "people" again?
HR bullshit (Score:2)
So H.R. are either the laziest fuckers in the entire world or they are openly deceptive.
Please... this is why all those yelling about "job killing regulations" are full of it. Our multinationals don't follow rules they don't want to follow because government has become their lapdog.
Jobs for Americans? (Score:4, Interesting)
CEOs of tech companies don't want to pay taxes or decent wages and benefits and want a large pool of educated people to hire from. They have a two part strategy: (1) work deals to avoid paying taxes thus screwing Americans out of a decent education (California is a great example), and resulting in "not enough qualified applicants",which justifies (2) expanding the H1B visa program.
H1B visa workers are essentially slaves. They have to accept whatever pay and working conditions they are given because if they don't like either they have to go back where they came from. It's perfect for tech employers. The extra 65000 slaves per year coming into the US drives down the wages and benefits for American workers who have to compete against people coming from 3rd world hell-holes.
I used to be an engineer and worked for HP, TI, Motorola and a couple other companies. I've seen how the companies conspire to fix wages and benefits and I've seen and known several H1B slaves. I saw the writing on the wall several years ago and went back to school and became a dentist. Engineering is a dead end in the US. If you're in school for engineering now I'd start thinking about doing something else.
Surprised it has not run out yet. (Score:4, Insightful)
Also many young Indians no longer want to work in USA. Almost all the popular entertainment is now available in USA unlike the situation some 10 years ago. All the TV channels of all the languages are available either via satellite or via internet streaming. Cricket clubs are popping up everywhere and cricket channels are available from UK and Australia too. Vegetarianism support has increased tremendously over the last decade. Technically the life of a fresh immigrant Indian is much easier now than it was when were coming in, the early 1990s. But the biggest problem is the domestic chores. In India labor is so cheap, these people usually employ a maid and possibly a cook. Back then when I was earning 200$ a month as a government scientist I was spending 10$ a month on a maid. (All seven days a week, scrub the cement floor with wet rags and disinfectant, do the dishes, do the laundry and clean the bathrooms). So they don't do any household chores and consider cleaning the bathroom beneath their dignity. So now USA has lost its luster for the younger generation of India.
It is a pity. They don't know what they are missing. They are highly misinformed about America. They think India is going to be the super power in 20 years. They have absolutely no idea of the depth of the strength of America and the time it would take to build a society like America. Of course it would take just a few decades to undo it. But to build it, it would take a few centuries. They don't know that.
H1B - not only for IT workers (Score:3)
by large IT companies: http://www.myvisajobs.com/Reports/2012-H1B-Visa-Sponsor.aspx [myvisajobs.com] Guess what? H1B is the only reasonable route for educated people to immigrate legally to US (aside from marriage and family ties, and lottery.) Due to annual cap, that is mostly taken by large IT companies, other folks are out of luck. I went to school for 10 years in US, got doctorate degree, and can't just open my own clinic and practice. I am not taking anybody else's job - I'll create jobs. But current immigration system does not allow that, unless you are rich right out of school and can invest hundreds of thousands of dollars in your business in order to get E2 visa. Even then, you cannot get residency and citizenship later, ever; only renew E2, if you are lucky. So, H1B is the only reasonable option: get hired, work for several years, and then get residency through permanent employment. However, most private clinics do not want to spend time and money to start H1B paperwork in April and wait until October for the worker to start working. Immigration system is ridiculous and that's why there are so many illegals. People just cannot get through the system even when they try to do it legally.
The bigotry on this thread is awe inspiring. (Score:4, Insightful)
There is nothing to distinguish the primary sentiments expressed here from the hatred of European Jews, Italians, Irish, West-Africans, etc. that have been voiced by the most backward and unthinking bigots throughout American history. Each of the individuals seeking work here has - in our founders' terms - an inalienable right to pursue their happiness in any peaceful manner they choose.
When they ask for a job at a given wage, they are infringing no one else's rights - noone has a "right" to a job at a higher wage than the employer is willing to pay. It is only by dropping this context that someone can complain about the so-called "unfair" competition imposed by other individual job seekers, no matter where they come from. There is no un-bigoted reason to prefer that someone born in America gets a given job over someone born elsewhere.
Yes, the H-1B visa program should be abolished - in favor of absolutely free immigration and job-seeking by any non-criminal from any place in the world. This is America's promise, as expressed eloquently on the Statue of Liberty. Where has that spirit gone?
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while others argue that offering visas to foreign workers reduces job prospects for Americans
H1B's are living and working in the same environment as Americans.H1B's typically have lower educational opportunities than Americans(Americans have access to educational facilities worldwide, but its very difficult for a foreigner to get admission in an educational insitute in America(for someone from one of the countries from where people aspire to live in America)) Then, why cant Americans compete with H1B's?
Because they expect to be paid more. You are not going to do a 12-hour a day IT job for the same money as a car salesman working 8 hours a day if you can get a job as a car salesman. On the other hand offer someone from a low-wage country 20k a year, give them a visa that won't let them change jobs and you're set up.
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You don't need that many anymore. A good engineer from a top university who likes to code and is an all round nice person can make most things you like in China.
If not they have a security clearance and are mapping the globe or are passing on their skills to students around the world working out what they want to "do" in their 30's.
They nothing to fear, wealthy families, nice cars, the best Phd's money can buy and a charm that is unique to their inner cl
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Let them raise the standard of living in their own country rather than dragging ours down. It's not their America. They're foreigners.
Re:Cant Americans compete? (Score:5, Insightful)
Belief in slavery, that's why.
I've encountered many who really believe slaves make better workers. This includes the slaves. "I owe, I owe, it's off to work I go" is practically the national motto of the US. They don't call it slavery of course. They call it commitment, reliability and stability. They believe people must be pushed hard, and will do their best when they are in "do or die" situations, there's a gun pointing at their heads, their necks' are on the chopping blocks and the ax is ready to fall. Even better when they have volunteered. "Ability to work in high pressure environment" is a popular and sought after soft skill. They believe this so strongly that they put a higher priority on their ability to get and maintain holds over a job candidate than the abilities and skills they're seeking. Being financially responsible counts against you! They want you set up so that you're in a world of hurt if you lose your job. This is why the US does not have sane health care spending. Relieving employers of the burden of paying for and managing a health care program is seemingly one of the most business friendly things government could do. Yet business opposed it. Why? Employers like having holds over employees, and health benefits make a good one.
Ever had a boss observe that you haven't bought a new car? And this despite the fact that your current car works fine? I have, twice, and my mother once. Why is the boss so interested in your car? No one else cares. One of these bosses explained it, saying that because I wasn't making car payments, I could afford to leave my job and this was bad! At another job, the phrase "flight risk" was used to refer to employees who could afford to leave their jobs. At still another job, a fellow employee told me that he was a better employee than I because he had to have the job in order to afford his crushingly high house payments (he paid $500,000 for a small house, in California, in 2003), and his wife and new baby daughter, whereas I was living in an apartment. He made sure everyone, especially management, knew how screwed he would be if he lost his job, and that he was willing to work long hours. Often, managers are also slaves, and tend to be jealous of peons who have freedoms they don't have. Had one manager who groaned theatrically about his massive credit card debt, but it was easy to see he was really kind of bragging about it. He even held a little pissing contest one day, asking everyone how much credit card debt we had. He "won" by "virtue" of having the most. I refused to answer, and this was met with hostility, and the suspicion that I must not have any, and jealousy.
So of course H1Bs have massive advantages over the natives.
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Isn't there always a shortage of slave labor?
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It's the government overhead.
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What is the difference in this case?
HR is being manipulative. It doesn't matter if you are talking I.T., chem careers, engineering careers, or whatever. There are H1B people working in *journalism* for Christ's sake. This is our corporate overlords manipulating the numbers and the law, plain and simple.
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Worst troll ever.
There is no such thing as a reputable multinational any more. Especially not Microsoft of Amazon. I like Google, but they probably fall in the same boat now that "do no evil" is out the window.
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I agree. I recently visited the US (last month) for a friend's wedding. I was greeted in the hallway on the way to immigration by 3 large uniformed officials and one large and vicious looking black german sheperd, standing in the middle of the corridor so that everyone had to walk between them.
Now part of me understands the need to try to control drug smuggling, etc. However the image is unmistakable - "you are arriving in a police state, we have the power, we're not afraid to use it and we are arrogant e