Chinese Hackers Strike Energy Companies

angry tapir writes "Chinese hackers working regular business hours shifts stole sensitive intellectual property from energy companies for as long as four years using relatively unsophisticated intrusion methods in an operation dubbed 'Night Dragon,' according to a new report from security vendor McAfee." Reader IT.luddite links this informative PDF from CERT.

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shame vs. guilt

[Anonymous Coward]

The mainland Chinese really will do anything to win. I've seen it repeatedly with my own eyes. I think it's got something to do with having to deal with the cognitive dissonace of thinking you're the master race, while nursing a massive inferiority complex viz-a-viz the West.

What I find amusing, is their apparently thin skins -- although when it comes to doing all these totally immoral things and losing tons of face, they don't show any shame at all.

As a general stereotype:

The West generally works on the concept of guilt: you feel bad internally via your own conscience. Other societies on this planet work on the concept of shame: it doesn't matter if you feel internally that the action was okay, but rather you feel bad from external voices.

Of course the West has the concept of social/peer pressure, and the East (?) does have the concept of a conscience, but it's a matter of degree. In the West the rebel is often accepted, but in the East not so much.

(At least that's always been my Reader's Digest version of the concepts.)

Re:Stay classy, China

[sdguero]

It can definitely make it difficult to do business. 75% of my engineering team is in Beijing. Lucky for us engineers, your reputation, salary, and job rely on the ability to produce accurate, repeatable, results. It has nothing to do with politics, cultural stammering, or hurt feelings. If they tried to move technical support or anything other than engineering over there, we'd be in deep shit. Similarly, if it wasn't for the US team working closely with them, we'd be in deep shit.

It has gotten to the point where China has first crack at everything, then provides their results and notes to US engineers, then we find holes that get fixed, and give it back to China to do again. usually after 2 or 3 rounds of this we have a solid product. It probably takes 3 times longer than doing it with an all US team and we have to deal with weird cultural things (like everyone over there having inflated titles and egos), but total labor costs are way cheaper and Chinese engineers are smart people. IMO, it's pretty much a wash vs doing it all in the USA.

Re:Now wait a second...

[Nethemas the Great]

Since when did the Chinese have such lax work hours...?

Re:Stay classy, China

[sdguero]

The truth isn't always classy. Have you ever been to China? Here is some reading:
http://www.time.com/time/magazine/article/0,9171,187654,00.html [time.com]
http://edition.cnn.com/2002/WORLD/asiapcf/east/05/13/asia.whitening/ [cnn.com]
http://www.newsweek.com/2008/07/25/china-s-agony-of-defeat.html [newsweek.com]

Don't get me wrong. I like China. I like the food, the women, the Chinese sense of humor. It's more my style than the USA nowadays. But the parent poster is dead on. Modern Chinese have all kinds of complexes about their role in the world.

Re:Stay classy, China

[hey!]

I think you overestimate the effectiveness of the Cultural Revolution. True, many priceless artifacts were lost, and worse many irreplaceable intellectuals.. But you simply can't wipe out a nation's cultural memory in ten years.

Look at it this way: Deng Xiao Peng was 62 when the Cultural Revolution started, and during it he was purged not once, but twice. After Mao died, the party turned to Deng because of his experience in dealing with the economic chaos from the Great Leap Forward. They turned to 72 year old Deng because of his experience *before* the Cultural Revolution. Deng was *hated* by the supporters of the Cultural Revolution.The Red Guards even threw his son off the roof of a four story building.

So that should be enough to show that the Cultural Revolution did not succeed in destroying everything that came before. It would be true to say that it transformed China, and not necessarily for the better, but it would be a mistake to depict it as successful on its own terms. One of its ironic effects it had was to inculcate a strong distaste for "Mao Zedong Thought".

Re:Stay classy, China

[victorhooi]

heya,

Hmm, as a Chinese person (admittedly overseas born), I'm a bit uncomfortable with the idea that culturally we're somehow immoral.

However, while a bit of a generalisation, I do see your logic. *sigh*. And from experience with dealing with other Chinese, particularly mainlanders, you do see the effects at least, that anything seems to go, as long as you win.

Another thing you might want to bear in mind is the idea in Confucianism of there being a hierachy of loyalties. One thing that I was taught before was that if you had to lie to the police to protect say, your father, or your boss, that was allowed under our culture, and in fact actively encouraged. It was never suggested that it was a moral quandary, or that it was anything but black and white.

I don't know what the Slashdot groupthink on this is, but in my mind, the rule of law, and what's "right" should usually take precedence over some weird network of loyalties.

However, the above might give a little more context to your idea that eschewing morals to get ahead, or help your company get ahead is considered acceptable under Chinese culture.

Cheers,
Victor