Computer Glitch Leaves Some Australians Without Cash 195
An anonymous reader writes "National Australia Bank payments to customers were again delayed today after a computer glitch yesterday morning due to a corrupted file in its mainframe computer. Upset consumers are now demanding compensation for any fees for late mortgage and credit card payments, overdrawn accounts or bounced direct debits charged by any institutions as a result of the mess."
Money meet mattress (Score:3, Insightful)
Still the safest place until you house burns down
This could be good news (Score:4, Insightful)
Reading the article (Score:5, Insightful)
It looks like consumers aren't demanding it so much as the bank is promising it, which is no surprise. Even if Australia doesn't have laws protecting consumers in that sort of event, the bank will do it anyhow because they have to.
As a practical matter all it'll likely take is phone calls/letters to creditors explaining that it was a glitch and no fault of the person involved. As a somewhat related example a friend of mine got hit because of a glitch years ago. The power company double debited his payment. That happened right about when a number of other transactions came which caused some of them to bounce, including his rent check. All the fees from the bank overdrew his account, he had other fees from the people he owed money to, and his landlord notified him he'd be evicted if he didn't pay. Well, the power company made things right and gave him back his money. They also called the relevant parties saying "Sorry, it was our fuckup." Every single one canceled all the fees. Since it wasn't his fault, they didn't fine him. Had they not, the power company said to send them the bills for the fees and they'd reimburse him.
So while this is doubtless a stressful time for those involved, in the end I have to imagine it'll all get worked out. Goes double since this is a major fuckup, and going to be well known.
They deserve any late fees they get? (Score:1, Insightful)
"National Australia Bank payments to customers were again delayed today after a computer glitch yesterday morning due to a corrupted file in its mainframe computer. Upset consumers are now demanding compensation for any fees for late mortgage and credit card payments,
If you have a payment due on X date, you wait until day X - 1, and something goes wrong and delays you by one day, this is your fault, not your bank's fault.
Matters would be different if there was a problem at day X - 7 that lasted for 7 days, or X - 14 that lasted for 14 days.
It is not reasonable to expect there will never be any problems with electronic payment systems. 1 to 2 days is reasonable to sort this out, you are taking an unreasonable risk if you don't attempt to complete payment to a bill at least 3 days before the due date.
In other words, these consumers should get stuck with these late fees, and learn about a valuable lesson in taking reasonable steps to ensure their obligations are met, even if something goes not quite as expected with the payment.
Re:They deserve any late fees they get? (Score:5, Insightful)
If you have a payment due on X date, you wait until day X - 1, and something goes wrong and delays you by one day, this is your fault, not your bank's fault.
I disagree entirely. In todays age of electronic payments and daily interest, it's important to pay things ON TIME. Paying early for most people means losing interest elsewhere. I pay on X date, not even X-1. I schedule most of this. Noone pays me 7 days early, the banks certainly don't clear a cheque early on assumption it'll be fine. The NAB appear to be acting very fairly on this matter, which is more than I've seen other banks (CBA) doing when a computer glitch duplicated a debit on my account. I was 50k down on an interest bearing mortgage offset account for a week - they didn't even remotely entertain my request $60 interest it lost me. They don't waste any time when the shoe is on the other foot though so good on NAB.
Re:They deserve any late fees they get? (Score:3, Insightful)
RTFA
The problem was not that they "left it too late" - the problem was the money that should have been put into their accounts to cover the bills (from paycheques, etc) did not actually make it into the accounts.
If the money that was supposed to go in the account did not actually make it in, then they would not have anything to be able to pay the bills as they became due.
Keep in mind also that many repetitive payments, such as like credit card repayments, are often timed to come out automatically the day after payday - this is not a matter of personal decision, therefore not their fault.
Re:They deserve any late fees they get? (Score:2, Insightful)
Re:They deserve any late fees they get? (Score:5, Insightful)
Re:They deserve any late fees they get? (Score:1, Insightful)
I disagree entirely. In todays age of electronic payments and daily interest, it's important to pay things ON TIME. Paying early for most people means losing interest elsewhere.
Of course you can do so, but it is not advisable, and you bear the risk if you choose to wait to the due date, you are the one taking on the risk, and you get to pay late fees if your bet was wrong about how long the payment would take. That's why I say "deserve the outcome". Because it would be the risk that you took on, it makes sense your bank should not pay for unreasonable risk you created for yourself.
Electronic payments are expected to be fast, and they usually are, but for most products, there is generally limited/no SLA. Your efforts to pay electronically can fail for reasons as simple as "Your internet connection went down" on that day, or "Your bank's website went down during your break, you couldn't get to the web page", or something went wrong with your username and password/login access, when you went to login at 11:50pm to pay tomorrow's bill.
Or you got hit by a bus and couldn't get home in time after your hospital visit to pay the bill.
Trying to wait until precisely the due date for preserving interest is Pennywise pound foolish, particularly when the best rate for an interest bearing liquid account is about 1%. The amounts involved have to be more than approximately $20,000, before even $0.10 of interest is at stake.
You can lose more money long run, if for no other reason than due to your own mistake, or misunderstanding of your bank's rules; human error is likely to be costly for you, when you leave zero margin for error.
Automatic payment systems always or almost always come with a disclaimer that payment cannot be guaranteed. Funds may be on hold unexpectedly, items can take longer to clear or for credit to be posted.
Electronic auto payment systems don't relieve debtors of their responsibility to make payment, or excuse lateness, if the payment fails to go through in time, and the bank whose system fails is not responsible for covering the late fee, so this is the particular risk involved in taking this stance and waiting until T+0 to pay.
It is still advisable to pay early. You may lose a day or two's interest; however, by not paying on time you are taking a bigger risk.
Your payment might not go through. It may be declined; if it is declined, it could be either your error, your bank's, the receiving bank's, a system problem, or a delay in delivery of the electronic payment.
In most of these circumstances you will be responsible for the late fee, unless you convince your creditor to waive it.
For most payments the dollar amount of 'daily interest' is microscopic, and the '1 day late fee' is massive. It doesn't make any sense whatsoever to risk paying a $30 late fee, to try to get $0.005 extra daily interest over 3 days.
Sorry but doing that is gambling more or less (Score:4, Insightful)
If you take everything down to the wire to maximize interest, fine, but you are gambling the gains in interest vs the potential loss in terms of fees. If you are ok with that, fine, but then don't cry when you do get hit with fees and lose out. Personally I think the other way is smarter. I keep an amount of money in my non-interest bearing checking account since that is where all my transactions draw from. That way if there is a miscalculation there's no overdraw, no bounced payments, no fees. Likewise I pay things before the drop dead date.
Do I miss out on some interest? Sure, if I messed with funds all the time and tried to keep everything in savings till the last second I'd get a bit more interest. However it wouldn't take much in the way of a fee to negate any of that.
So I think there's some real validity to the GP's statement. Don't take things down to the wire, build in time to make sure if there's a glitch, there's no problem.
Re:They deserve any late fees they get? (Score:2, Insightful)
> ...any responsible adult will have enough in savings...
More than 50% of the children in my country will grow up in poverty. That's 50% will grow up beneath the poverty line. 50% will grow up in families that are unable to meet the bills on time. Over here, the cost of living increases at a notably greater rate than the median wage.
Hell, the last time my job got a pay increase was when minimum wage was increased this year. The time before that was two years ago, when minimum wage was increased. You can bet your arse the board members get increases every half hour.
And no, getting an education didn't help one little bit.
Re:Sorry but doing that is gambling more or less (Score:5, Insightful)
You aren't gambling anything, you are making use of modern infrastructure and a service your bank offers. It is no more of a gamble than not getting up early just in case the bridge on your way to work has collapsed during the night.
Well, no, you shouldn't cry but simply tell your bank to pay the bills that resulted in their failure to deliver a service as advertized, and sue them if they don't.
If your financial institutions really are this unreliable, then I can kinda see why your economy collapsed.
Re:Sorry but doing that is gambling more or less (Score:4, Insightful)
Re:Australian bank now looking to hire (Score:3, Insightful)
When westpac fucked up like this, they just replayed the batch the next day and it was sorted.
The fact that this wasn't fixed on day one means they're trying to put the data back together from scratch. (ie: they are so fucked)
Re:This could be good news (Score:4, Insightful)
Because borrowing money and not paying it back is an honorable way to live?
Re:They deserve any late fees they get? (Score:3, Insightful)
You know... you're right, besides you normally don't get any interest on the deposit anyway.
BUT: you're being pedantic and acting righteously... Ok, so you pay your bills in advance and accidents such as this wouldn't affect you? Fine, good for you... want a pat on the back? ;)
Re:This could be good news (Score:5, Insightful)
Re:They deserve any late fees they get? (Score:5, Insightful)
This entire thread you've been racing to the defense of the banks. If I have money in the bank, and cannot use it due to a corrupted file on the bank's server or whatnot, THEN IT IS THE BANKS FAULT.
Its that simple.
Its not that I didn't have enough money, or that I didn't initiate the transfer. The bank fucked up. They sure as hell want to charge me for everything under the sun when I'm late. If they are late its their fucking fault, and I will pass the late fees on to them.
Re:Windows or *nix mainframe... (Score:3, Insightful)
Unisys has been slogging their large scale x86 machines running Windows Datacenter Edition as mainframes for almost a decade.
Few people take that claim seriously, any more than they would believe a claim that a 32 CPU Sun or HP server was a "mainframe". Such machines are just mid range servers with a larger than usual number of CPUs.
The basic difference is that mid-range servers (system software and hardware) are more "commodity-ish" (and much less expensive) than true mainframes where companies spend on the order of ten times as much just to gain additional advantages in reliability, availability, and serviceability. If you don't spend at least $1M on a computer it probably isn't a mainframe.
Even if you do, by convention Unix is a mini-computer operating system, and Windows Server even lower down the scale, and systems running those operating systems aren't generally considered mainframes no matter how much extra RAS effort is put into them.