Black Duck Eggs and Other Secrets of Chinese Hacks

Roberto123 writes "Network World offers some insights into the way China infiltrates US organizations, physically and via computer, to steal information. Security expert Ira Winkler says there are far more serious threats out there than the 'laughable' uproar over China's hack of Google."

The article draws weird conclusions.

[flowerp]

My wife has no problems buying black eggs of any kind in asia stores in Germany. Oh, and black eggs can be mailed long distance, it's fermented and thereby preserved food.

And you really can't conclude from the menu of a chinese restaurant what's going or not going on behind the scenes. I call bullshit on this one. No corporate espionage ring would need to use a "safe house" or "safe restaurant" for that matter to drop off secret information or to secretly meet. It's the information age, dummies!

I gotta agree.

[khasim]

And furthermore:

Besides continually innovating at hacking computer networks in the U.S. and globally, Chinese interests also hack companies physically by infiltrating them with people who can then be recruited as spies, Winkler said.

Huh? I can see infiltrating them with spies ... but infiltrating them with people who you will then try to recruit to be a spy?

Isn't that a bit ... stupid?

Re:The article draws weird conclusions.

[sopssa]

Exactly, and could someone please tell me how this

"Don't you know black duck eggs are a delicacy in China?" Winkler said Stan asked. "I can't get black duck eggs in San Francisco, let alone this little piece of crap town in the middle of nowhere." Stan's conclusion was that the Chinese restaurant was a front for a Chinese espionage operation targeting the Fortune 5 business.

gives the conclusion that it's a Chinese cyber espionage front? I mean, seriously?

Re:I gotta agree.

[MichaelSmith]

And furthermore:

Besides continually innovating at hacking computer networks in the U.S. and globally, Chinese interests also hack companies physically by infiltrating them with people who can then be recruited as spies, Winkler said.

Huh? I can see infiltrating them with spies ... but infiltrating them with people who you will then try to recruit to be a spy?

Isn't that a bit ... stupid?

Not if you know you will be able to manipulate the recruits. China has a lot of control over the lives of those peoples relatives back home.

Why even risk the possibility?

[khasim]

Not if you know you will be able to manipulate the recruits. China has a lot of control over the lives of those peoples relatives back home.

Why even risk the possibility that one of them will NOT take the offer?

Cut out the middleman and simply send them spies to be hired. Spies who have ALREADY agreed to be spies for you.

Re:I gotta agree.

[thesaurus]

And this is why we're screwed trying to stop Chinese espionage...our security consultants are frakking morons.

The Chinese are just throwing a wide net

[jd.schmidt]

China simply encourages people to go abroad (they have plenty to spare) and keeps on good terms with them. Then agents just keep in cotanct and, by playing on national pride, ask expats what they know about X. (say a new chemical process or code snippet or whatever) It *almost* doesn't qualify as spying, I understand they are fairly upfront and just say stuff like, "we want to make a better car but we keep having problems with the fuel line, how does the company you work for solve this" or "do you have any advice". If they get "secret" information in the process, so be it.

They don't bother to train spies and send them out because it isn't that type of espionage.

The issue for us is to understand what is important to protect and what isn't. The Soviets had a great security system, it was so secure they kept their inventions secret from themselves.

Can't Find Duck Eggs in SF?

[Mr. Flibble]

Can't get black duck eggs?

While I have not looked in San Francisco, I frequently find black duck eggs in packs of six in "Superstore" in Canada. I have been buying them for years to put in my rice porrige (Jook) that I like to make.

I fail to see how a product available at every Superstore I have been to is hard to find in San Francisco, I mean, SF has the largest Chinatown in North America does it not?

Re:The article draws weird conclusions.

[Anonymous Coward]

WTF. Century eggs are to Chinese people what pickles are to Americans... they're not a rare delicacy at all. You can make them in your own home. You can buy them at the freaking Asian corner store. Anyone who fails to find a century egg in San Francisco is a real moron.

And organized crime? Give me a break. If you see sardines in a grocery, do you jump to the conclusion that it's operated by the Mafia?

Re:I gotta agree.

[Nikkos]

That's one of the key differences between Western/Eastern cultures. We're (speaking as a Western-raised individual) an individualistic society while they're a collective society (and no, this is in no relation to political theories) You choose any banner - be it race, religion, or nationality - and any group of people raised in a collective society will have more people willing to work/sacrifice themselves for the cause than a comparable group of the same size of people raised in an individualistic society. So think about how easy it would be "turn" someone that shares both race, nationality, and culture...

America (and Britain) with her homogeneous ethnicity (in contrast to nearly any other country in the world) is highly susceptible to this type of infiltration. While China could close the borders and toss any white, black, or hispanic person out on their ass, it'd never fly here - especially after the internment camps of WWII. As such there's no effective defense against this.

Re:I gotta agree.

[spazdor]

If the Chinese government is attempting this kind of extortion on a large scale, we have to assume that some of those attempts will be failures, and that some of those failures will be loud.

As far as I know, no Chinese immigrant has yet come forward with allegations that this happened to them. Which means either it's 100% effective, or else it's not happening.

What the duck?

[XiaoMing]

I'm not sure if the author of the article is actually a moron who can't shop and also a complete racist, or smart enough to realize his article would have no readers without putting in a culturally ignorant title, but I'd like to know where the hell he has been shopping in SF.

First of all, you can get black duck eggs damn near everywhere. I can get them in Fremont, Sunnyvale, or Cupertino, California at a variety of locations (Lions, 99Ranch, etc.), and I'm PRETTY sure you'd be able to find it in one of the biggest Chinatowns this country has to offer.
Hell I live in Madison, Wisconsin now and I'm 10 minutes (walking distance) away from a run down Chinese grocery outlet the size of a 7-11 that sells black duck eggs, and two out of the three crappy fast-food only takeout restaurants here serve porridge with black duck eggs.

To use decades old "cultural insight" that black duck eggs are a "Chinese Delicacy" without realizing that within the last two decades foods and goods Chinese people have only heard about in stories have become commonplace items not only in China, but also internationally as exports, is just pathetic.

But I guess there really was no other way to emphasize the ridiculously commonplace adage--that the human link is the weakest in security--without resorting to making ridiculous and dated cultural assumptions.

It's alright that he's not too good with cultures and people I guess. I mean, he's Russian after all, they're only good at math and physics.

Old stories rehashed?

[siddesu]

It is very heartwarming to see the stories I grew up with behind the Iron curtain about CIA agents coming in to ruin our happy socialist lives being rehashed on what used to be the "free" side of the said curtain :)

Re:Why even risk the possibility?

[T Murphy]

A company won't likely hire or retain someone who seems to be a spy. Given new hires will get more attention, if they are all spies there is a fair risk of at least one raising suspicion- depending on how connected all the spies are, this can really cause problems for all of them. If China lets the new hires adjust to being a new employee, then pull them into being a spy, they can just focus on the ones who end up in positions or career paths that are useful for spying, and the spies are comfortable enough with their job they shouldn't be drawing unnecessary attention anyways. Also, college graduates have a lot of choices to work with- if they are allowed to settle down a bit, they won't see nearly as many alternatives to giving in to being a spy, should they not be nationalistic enough to like spying.

Companies aren't likely to hire senior engineers/programmers/etc. with their only work experience being in China- the best way to get someone into the desired position is to get hired from graduation and work up to the position. May as well let the future spy fit in as a typical bright college student, then deal with the spy recruiting phase between them getting hired and waiting until they've been working long enough to have proper access to the desired information or system.

Re:But did he order them?

[T Murphy]

Because middle of somewhere would have people ready to pull the NIMBY card on any big factory proposal (assuming a factory, although any large facility will bother some of the population). Middle of nowhere will be a lot easier to persuade with the promise of jobs and "the pollution won't be that bad, trust me".

(This isn't intended to be anti-corporate, I am just coming up with what I think a plausible explanation).

Re:I gotta agree.

[sortius_nod]

Apart from the, you know, ancestor worship that's part of Chinese culture.

Your statement is total bullshit and you know it. There is a big emphasis on family within Chinese culture and to say that you just lose it by being in the US for a while is crap. Why do you think that there's such a large Chinese community in the US? Not because they've thrown their culture to the kerb.

If any threats of family harm come to a Chinese person it will definitely make them easier to coerce.

Reiterates the simple truth.

[MrCrassic]

Some people spend so much time concentrating on the technical brilliance involved in computer hacking, they tend to forget that most of the pertinent and crippling attacks are byproducts of simple social engineering and breaches in trust.

If you work in, say, any financial institution, pay attention to the way your co-workers talk and behave.

Re:RACE CARD RACE CARD RACE CARD

[spazdor]

The trick is being certain that none of the other 99 will go to the cops - or worse, to the organization to be spied on.

Re:I gotta agree.

[Jah-Wren Ryel]

If the Chinese government is attempting this kind of extortion on a large scale, we have to assume that some of those attempts will be failures, and that some of those failures will be loud.

You are right, holding the family at home hostage is just stupid.
On the other hand - giving them special treatment, like getting the kids into a better school, moving a sick relative up the line for organ transplant, that kind of stuff is easy to do hush-hush.

And, of course, that's not the only thing they do. They also play on feelings of nationalism. Just because a guy leaves his country of birth for better opportunities doesn't mean he thinks the country is shit, in fact he may even want to go back and if he can contribute to the economic development of the country that may even make it possible for him to go back and get the kind of job that didn't exist when he left.

OK I RTFA and...

[djdevon3]

This guy is a quack. The entire article sounds like the ramblings of a paranoid schizophrenic that has a bit of technical knowledge. He thought some random Chinese restaurant he had lunch in was actually a front for corporate espionage simply because they had "black duck eggs" on the menu. Seriously. That was his one and only reason. He goes on to accuse the Chinese of planting spies in oil companies and Google specifically. I hope he was actually quoted out of context or we've got some serious mental patients for "security experts".

Re:I gotta agree.

[sarkeizen]

I really don't know what the mainlands are like but all the HK folk I've met would never pass for collectivist but perhaps that's the (great?) thing about various degrees of consumerism and democracy...it inherently undermines collectivism.

Unsubstantiated, possibly racist FUD

[FoolishOwl]

The article basically lays out this argument:

1. There's a Chinese restaurant in the midwest somewhere that, shockingly, serves Chinese food.
2. Graduate students from China have been observed speaking Chinese on the telephone, and at least sometimes, they were speaking to the Chinese consulate -- which is suspicious, since consulates provide services to a nation's citizens living abroad.
3. Therefore, there is a massive Chinese campaign of computer espionage, which is so effective that we can't actually detect anything happening.

I read the article, expecting at least some cursory information about system cracking techniques that have been detected. Instead, there's just this vapid paranoia that Chinese people may be up to something. It smacks of racism.

Re:Hmmm ...

[Foobar of Borg]

"I can't get black duck eggs in San Francisco, let alone this little piece of crap town in the middle of nowhere."

What a fucking liar! I could get black duck eggs in Central Pennsylvania, FFS! If he can't find the in SF, he's not looking.

Re:Hmmm ...

[Anonymous Coward]

But they're made in the same sweatshops that made the original.

Re:No Western Industrial Espionage

[dlgeek]

There's a huge difference between one company spying on another and a government spying on foreign companies then passing the information to domestic ones. The latter case is the one being discussed.

Re:Fact Error.

[gyrogeerloose]

When I clicked on your link, the menu at the restaurant did not feature black duck anything.

Try looking for thousand-year-old eggs.

Re:Unsubstantiated, possibly racist FUD

[euyis]

I live in a city in North China and surprisingly, there are McDonalds and even European style restaurants here, serving foods like hamburgers or steak.
And I occasionally see westerners, though not very often (stealthy spies!), talking in English on the phone.
Do these indicate that there're evil spies operating in China, doing espionage in my city?

TFA is nonsense.

Re:Chinese espionage is not innocuous

[jandersen]

The author didn't state it elegantly, but he still made the point -- Chinese industrial espionage is very real, is here now, and it is state-sponsored.

I don't think he - or you - has any point besides the obvious. Do you really imagine that guys like you are the only ones that know about these things? Or that China is the only country that does it?

There is no need to go looking for enemies in China or Russia - they are big nations, and they have a clear and obvious interest in not upsetting the balance in the world too much; if one of the big nations were to fail, it would hurt every nation in the world, so America, Russia, China etc are going to protect each others' interests and stability, at least against major upsets. Would China benefit from America suddenly being relegated to the bottom? Of course not - what would happen to their exports and the stability of their currency? No, China is America's friend, at least in the same sense that your business partners are your friends.

The real enemies of America (and China, Russia, ...) are the crackpots who are willing to throw away their own life to hurt you, followed closely by conspiracy theorists, that keep dreaming up sensational "threats", but somehow miss the real ones.

So, how do you know that you are not a conspiracy theorist? Simple: if you are willing to change your opinion in the light of evidence, then you are not one.

Re:The article draws weird conclusions.

[mlts]

The age old slogan of "never underestimate the bandwidth of a van full of backup tapes" holds true today. However, "just" a MicroSD memory card of 32 gigs can hold a LOT of useful information. Said card can be easily put in a dead drop, just like the old fashioned spying using microfilm.

My worry is that businesses will spend their time protecting (or trying to) protect against remote threats that they won't keep an eye out for the obvious.

Re:Unsubstantiated, possibly racist FUD

[Inda]

The racist FUD from kdawson has been growing for some time.

Why? Why does he, and seemingly the whole of the USA population, feel the need to always have an enemy?

Is is a culture thing? An edjucation thing?

I can't get my head around it.

Re:I gotta agree.

[g4b]

I read his comment, and could not see the hate you read out of it.

Part of humanity is religion. Why would be worshipping ancestors be any kind of a non human act? The only civilization not interested in worship would be mostly a robot society in my eyes. Even Atheists worship things. Everybody does. And only if it is their individuality.

I think, what the person you responded to only got wrong, is where it is worship, and where it is respectful tradition to obey. Dead Ancestors are worshipped (oh, and we got that in western culture, too, it only faded away or is semiconcious, but we also still do it in some extent), elders are seen as wiser. However, of course that changes.

Actually I regard it as a value having a strong family in society - one of western societies greatest illnesses is the alienation to the concept of family resulting in climbing numbers of depression and behavioural disorders.

To add something to the game, I say, some people actually want to become spies, believe in their system of government, and, use the new power, which is above family or other traditional hierarchies, to be individual. Actually, if you look back to Europe's history, most extraordinary positive and negative people have rebelled against their "closer" social ties by joining a bigger one. Because if Grandmother says something, and Mother is military, Mother does not have to follow.

So, I don't think, every spy is threatened and acts out of fear. That just simply would not work. You get better spies, if you take the people, who really believe in the same thing you believe.
I find it a little bit anti-chinese to say, that they only hurt the great western society, because they are threatened by eliminating their family. That may be the case in some cases, but primarily, maybe some of them even only do it to shut up their fathers, or they love their country, or whatever - and want to do it. Think about it. Because all in all we are all humans, and the thing influences us most is our closest relationships. And we dont always love the traditions we are born in.

Oh yeah, the states do employ spies, too. And it's mostly the weird guys you knew when you grew up, who join such things.

Re:Chinese espionage is not innocuous

[gov_coder]

China is not trying to 'kill' America. They are simply trying to steal from it. And that potentially amounts to a slow and painful 'death'. That the author advocates being cognizant of these facts is not ignorance or racism, but rather prudence. Like all facts, they must be balanced with others, for a wise perspective to take form; but surely the scale of Chinese espionage is something all of us can see as a significant problem.