Some Users Say Win7 Wants To Remove iTunes, Google Toolbar 570
Foofoobar writes "Due to a strike with the UK's postal system, people in Great Britain are getting copies of Windows 7 early and have already posted their experiences about the install process. Some have an easy time but others post installs taking 3 hours including Windows asking them to remove iTunes and Google toolbar prior to installation." The article indicates that many of these early users, though, are having better luck.
Windows Upgrades (Score:3, Insightful)
Sounds good to me (Score:5, Insightful)
iTunes and Google Toolbar are annoyances anyway. If they could permanently get rid of Quicktime, I'd be a happy camper.
Remove itunes? (Score:2, Insightful)
Finally, a good idea from microsoft.
Oh, wait, they expect us to muddle along with the windows media player instead. Pot, kettle, frying pan, fire.
So (Score:4, Insightful)
If they didn't do this we would be reading about how the upgrade breaks competitor's software. Damned if you do, damned if you don't.
Summary is Misleading (Score:3, Insightful)
TFA says Windwos7 asks you to remove some drivers and apps and then successfully re-installs them when done. That's not quite what the summary implies.
Comment removed (Score:5, Insightful)
Re:You can add them back... (Score:2, Insightful)
Misleading summary (Score:3, Insightful)
B) The 7 installer detects known incompatible software and asks you to uninstall it, making it very clear that it's going to do so.
This is a non-story.
Re:Sounds good to me (Score:2, Insightful)
Re:Sounds good to me (Score:4, Insightful)
Re:I'm confused (Score:5, Insightful)
Unfortunately, neither of these hold in the world as it actually exists.
Re:You can add them back... (Score:4, Insightful)
Yes you could make that claim.
But some parts of iTunes don't run in user-space.
Apple Mobile Device runs as a service as does Bonjour.
Its this device driver that needs to go (temporarily) and the system needs a reboot with it gone (in true Microsoft fashion).
After the upgrade, when you re-install iTunes, the Apple Mobile drivers will be subordinate to the new Windows 7 Device Stage, and all will be well.
Re:I'm confused (Score:4, Insightful)
Supposedly windows 'upgrades' are basically an install of the new OS then it tries to copy over/grab all the stuff from the 'old' windows. It's an ugly process, and probably errors are caused by programs it doesn't know how to copy over. Stuff that embeds itself in the OS, itunes messes with USB, Google with search and god knows what, Anti virus with everything could work fundamentally differently on a new OS than an old and figuring out how, if at all, to copy that over is probably a difficult business. This might even be problems with specific versions of said programs rather than the application as a whole.
Uninstalling applications in an automated way is a bad idea. They may or may not remove *data* associated with the application that the user wants to keep, and may not know how to easily copy over. Believe it or not most people care more about their data, and access to it, more than the OS they use to launch the applications. It's probably better that people who know something about what a 'directory' is, and how to browse them, try to figure out how to copy data over than a lot of users for whom such a terrifying concept is completely foreign.
Drivers are OS components (Score:3, Insightful)
An operating system shouldn't need to touch anything but OS components to do an upgrade install.
Device drivers, such as the iPod driver that comes with iTunes, are obviously operating system components. (If you disagree, please explain.) Google Toolbar is a web browser component, and Microsoft calls Internet Explorer part of the operating system.
Re:Not sure the title is correct... (Score:5, Insightful)
> iTunes for Windows is maximum bloatware with questionable value...
Unless you own an iPhone, in which case its value is pretty well dictated to you by Steve Jobs.
You really can't own an iPhone without it.
But somehow, Apple gets a pass for that kind of behavior, and Microsoft suffers FUD posts like this on Slashdot for Apple's misadventures.
One more /. non Issue here (Score:4, Insightful)
I'm definitely not a windows fan(or user). I'm totally a Linux guy, but it seams there's no issue here. The only issue I see is /. loosing credibility with this kind of stories. A major version change of operating system should be installed by a clean install and only morons upgrade. It's only natural that in the process of a new installation Windows tries to uninstall shitty software that mess with the core of the system.
Windows has plenty of real issues to bash about without this kind of shit.
If I was some windows user or Fan I would say: "If this is the kind of arguments /. has against windows all the other windows stories must be non-issues also"
Re:Windows Upgrades (Score:5, Insightful)
I don't know ... why don't you have these problems? What is your secret?
In my experience, if you have a real, live system and you upgrade Windows, you can expect everything non-MS to break. Critical registry entries get deleted, DLLs go missing, directories get moved and everything goes to hell in a hand-basket.
Re:Windows Upgrades (Score:4, Insightful)
That's not an excuse (Score:5, Insightful)
First off, there's no legitimate reason iTunes has to use QuickTime for MP3/AAC decoding. There are plenty of other options. If Apple insists on eating their own dogfood, there's no excuse for installing more than is necessary. Installing iTunes doesn't mean I want their stupid, crippled movie player or plugins.
So install the libraries (Score:5, Insightful)
And leave the awful player and browser plugins out.
Re:Sounds good to me (Score:1, Insightful)
Although it's not a good summary, is the first time I found a reason to upgrade to Win7. If Microsoft keeps resource hogs out of my system, that could be a great feature. Hopefully, they don't block Firefox, although my impression is that they are just blocking these because of the annoying services they run to update themselves.
Re:You can add them back... (Score:3, Insightful)
Windows is not Unix.
Continue your research.
Re:Crappy Summary (Score:5, Insightful)
For me, the more Slashdot bashes Microsoft unfairly, the less I despise Microsoft. If Microsoft is supposedly so rotten, why does Slashdot feel the need to lie? It makes Slashdot look like it's run by a bunch of idiots with an agenda, and makes me question how much of the bashing of MS is legitimate.
Comment removed (Score:3, Insightful)
Re:Sounds good to me (Score:5, Insightful)
So why can't Apple do what the rest of the world does when it needs to use code from another application... use libraries. You don't need Quicktime's plugins or media player. Just the libraries should be sufficient.
Re:Windows Upgrades (Score:3, Insightful)
If you upgrade Windows on top of another installation you are in for a bad time.
Yup. Wipe and Load. Pretty much the mantra for the last dozen releases or so, yet people still scratch their head after watching the 17th BSOD fly across their screen...
Microsoft OS releases should just come bundled with a brand-new hard drive. Would probably save themselves a lot of headache that way.
Re:Sounds good to me (Score:4, Insightful)
Re:That's not an excuse (Score:2, Insightful)
It uses it for movie playback as well, and given that all iTunes Store movies are in Quicktime format, they do kind of have to use it for playback.
Comment removed (Score:4, Insightful)
Re:Sounds good to me (Score:5, Insightful)
You posted that like you thought QuickTime is decoding engine, which it's actually an awful cheap media player from the early 90s. An encoding engine is a small DLL - not an entire media player application. There is no NEED for Apple to require QuickTime to be installed, but like much of Apple's software.
iTunes is one of the most badly written awful pieces of software in mass usage today. It's no wonder Windows needs it to be out of the way while it's installing - it does a LOT of horrible things to your system including installing all sorts of pointless services and modifying many critical bluetooth settings.
Re:Windows Upgrades (Score:4, Insightful)
I went from Vista to Win7 RC1 and didn't have any problems. Every time I see a comment like this, I think to myself "Why don't I ever have these problems?" Well?
Possibly for the same reason I can install Linux and not have to keep a terminal window open for every little thing, or constantly tweak it. We are not drama queens.
Re:Windows Upgrades (Score:5, Insightful)
Which it frequently doesn't. Ubuntu especially is notorious for breaking stuff.
Re:Sounds good to me (Score:4, Insightful)
That's just a cop out. Quality software can be written for any platform provided the developer puts in the effort to make a quality product.
Re:Windows Upgrades (Score:4, Insightful)
Well, I tend to reformat my root partition, but leave my /home partition as is... Never had a problem
How clean or unclean is this to you?
Re:Windows Upgrades (Score:5, Insightful)
In my experience, if you have a real, live system and you upgrade Windows, you can expect everything non-MS to break. Critical registry entries get deleted, DLLs go missing, directories get moved and everything goes to hell in a hand-basket.
Exactly, and you want to know why?
Microsoft follows their publised API's and published guidelines. Most other companies DO NOT. They take shortcuts to try and get things done quicker and almost always get it wrong.
If it runs on Vista, it should run on Windows 7, if it breaks, the developer fucked up.
Apple, Real, AOL, Apple, Symantec, Adobe, McAfee, IBM and Apple I'm talking about YOU. Especially Apple, ITunes is an over-engineered crapfest that touches things it shouldn't touch in the OS. (In their defense, they have gotten slightly better lately, but itunes still lives in a dedicated VM on my computer).
Re:Sounds good to me (Score:1, Insightful)
If this was true, I wouldn't mind.
But it's not.
iTunes uses the QuickTime library's resources for decoding/encoding, which is fine. It's great! Why do again whats already been done?
But why, oh why do they need to install that useless player as well?
Eh, it's a moot point for me. I strongly dislike iTunes too so it's not going on my machine anyway.
Re:Windows Upgrades (Score:1, Insightful)
... Apple I'm talking about YOU. Especially Apple, ITunes is an over-engineered crapfest that touches things it shouldn't touch in the OS. (In their defense, they have gotten slightly better lately, but itunes still lives in a dedicated VM on my computer).
Sadly, I haven't used a Mac in forever. But unless I'm mistaken, I seem to recall complaints about Apple using undocumented APIs in their own apps (and yes Apple fanbois, I know Microsoft has done the same thing, still doesn't make it right though).
Could this bad habit have left Apple feeling entitled to touch non-Apple operating systems in inappropriate ways since they did the same with their own operating system?
Ya well no surprise (Score:2, Insightful)
The MS haters are running scared right now. Windows 7 seems to be getting extremely favourable press overall, and the public is highly interested in it. Apparently on Amazon UK, Windows 7 preorders are not the highest for any product they've ever sold, a Harry Potter book holding the previous record. http://gizmodo.com/5386553/windows-7-amazon-preorders-beat-even-harry-potter [gizmodo.com]
Thus it isn't a surprise we are seeing zealots step up the FUD machine and try to spin anything they can as Windows 7 being bad. They are worried that people are going to like it and use it and Microsoft will continue to maintain a position of dominance.
Which software you talk about? (Score:4, Insightful)
Oh really? Eye TV 2.x (don't know 3.x), it is self contained .app which you drag to /Applications in mac (pre OS X) fashion. It sits idle there until you launch.
When you launch, it asks for admin uname/password to install "a device driver" (kernel extension). What kind of horrible, evil things may happen right?
Well, guess what? Nothing happens. It is because of the kernel/driver model. OS X doesn't give a heck if the device is not plugged in, it just caches the symbols/plist files coming with the driver to a file. So, if you have a Eye TV driver but you don't have Eye TV, that extension will sit there, forever, ignored by the OS _until_ you plug the device having same USB signature. I think you were expecting some stuff outside /System/Extensions , some registry like files, some hidden files... No man, it is just .kext and HFS+ "bundle bit" magic with clever use of directory watching.
There is no software which will bastardize core drivers of OS X. If you listen to some trouble shooting idiots and downgrade your core OS parts in /System, it is your fault. Nobody is idiot (yet) to do it in automated fashion though. Lets not forget all OS X comes with time Machine now, for free, no "ultimate" etc. crap schemes. Every single OS X user having space on somewhere (USB, network doesn't matter) has hourly backups of changed files including a complete backup of system.
Oh if you were speaking about Unsanity APE, it was designed from the ground so nobody would feel the need of modifying system files for trivial hacks. What happened? Ask the Logitech idiots who shipped awfully outdated version of it which wasn't able to disable itself.
Re:Windows Upgrades (Score:5, Insightful)
The real problem is the iPod connectivity (Score:3, Insightful)
If they opened up the iPod communication protocols, none of this would be an issue. They could Mac up the Windows port of iTunes to their heart's content and it wouldn't matter, if people had the option to just choose something else.
Re:Windows Upgrades (Score:5, Insightful)
If it's asking you to de-authorize it and not remove it, that kind of makes sense.
I imagine something in the upgrade process can fubar Apple's DRM system and cause it to make iTunes think it's not authorized. If that old install information remains in their database, it might be annoying to remove it (or not, I'm just guessing).
Re:Sounds good to me (Score:5, Insightful)
Seriously. I actually like iTunes, but damn is it a resource hog. Sometimes it will chew up 90%+ of CPU for no apparent reason. It will often be unresponsive to clicks for a couple seconds. I am not sure what is so complicated about a music player that causes this.
And then every time it asks me for an upgrade, it insists on installing Quicktime and other things that I don't want on my PC.
I don't use Macs, but wonder if all of Steve's apps behave this way...
I actually need and use iTunes (to talk to my iPhone), but one thing that shits me to no end is that every time I get a point-release update of iTunes, it installs two hidden "on startup" items. I have to use the 'msconfig' tool to get rid of them every bloody time.
Programs should really stop the habit of silently installing background processes that mostly do nothing except slow down the computer's boot time.
For example, since Vista, Windows has had a great task scheduler API that lets developer schedule system tasks like "check for update" on lots of complex criteria, such a "30 minutes after the PC goes idle". That way, the processes are only run once per machine (not user), don't slow down the boot, and can close to conserve memory after the check is done.
And don't get me started with the hideous piece-of-s*** that is Bonjour, which is a system service installed by iTunes that intercepts and modifies DNS requests. It opens your computer to vulnerabilities and has broken some apps. A music player has absolutely no business fucking around with system-wide DNS.
Every time someone complains that their machine is 'slow', it's either a virus, or I just use msconfig to disable the 50 startup processes installed by crap like iTunes. Miraculously, it turns out that there was nothing wrong with their hardware after all.
Re:Compatibility? (Score:3, Insightful)
Biggest single problem with Vista was people trying to use Windows 98-era software with it. The installers didn't work right, the files were in the wrong place and permissions were a huge problem because the rules changed.
It was possible, if you were determined enough, to install Windows 98 software on Vista. It wasn't a good idea, it made life difficult for the user and it didn't work real well, but it was possible. The fact that a lot of people encountered problems doing stuff like this makes it clear that Microsoft didn't make it clear enough to people that Vista was a huge compatibility break. The cry went out "But it worked on XP..." and people kept reading on and on about how awful Vista was.
If Windows 7 if pre-emptively uninstalling software that isn't compatible this is a huge leap forward. Now if it would only refuse to install software that wasn't compatible. Just abjectly refusing to install it with "No, it isn't compatible and it won't work right." This would probably solve 75% of the problems people had with Vista.
Most of the rest came from people installing software that was SUPPOSED to be compatible.
Re:Windows Upgrades - Oh yeah??? (Score:3, Insightful)
I never had this problem on my GNU/Linux system. Nor have I ever heard anyone about this issue on Mac OSX.
Try upgrading a Ubuntu 8.04 install to 9.04 or 9.10 on a Fujitsu S7110 laptop. Forget about pretty compbiz fireworks, wireless networking, and external monitor support without driver headaches post upgrade. I'm cool with it though. It's hard to expect more than MS is capable of doing on a $400 platform when linux is free...
As for MacOS. Snow leopard is notorious for problems with upgrades and costs at least as much as Windows when you consider the hardware premium. My boss (6 month old macbook pro) AND a friend of mine (1 year old macbook) ran into the "bricking" problem after upgrading to snow leopard(there is mention in this article):
http://www.pcworld.com/article/171129/snow_leopard_users_4_biggest_gripes.html [pcworld.com]
What I really don't like is how Apple will never never never ever ever admit that a problem exists, instead they insist that users are installing "unsupported software" or running with "corrupted files" blah blah blah. My roommate loves Apple and argues with me about this sometimes but I just think of Apple like any other PC/OS vendor, I'm not trying to pick on them (or any other vendor) they just aren't as good as a fanboys and "geniuses" will tell you (like any vendor's fanboys and sales people). And interestingly my roommate has yet to attempt the upgrade on his 1 1/2 year old macbook pro...
Re:Sounds good to me (Score:4, Insightful)
Office for Mac runs orders of magnitude better than iTunes on Windows. I don't buy your excuses.
My biggest complaint is that the only thing I ever use iTunes for is updating my iPhone's firmware. I need a gigantic bloated buggy app for THAT!? Hey Apple: how about making a 5 MB iPhone manager without all the bullshit, eh?
Re:Crappy Summary (Score:2, Insightful)
For me, the more Slashdot bashes Microsoft unfairly, the less I despise Microsoft. If Microsoft is supposedly so rotten, why does Slashdot feel the need to lie? It makes Slashdot look like it's run by a bunch of idiots with an agenda, and makes me question how much of the bashing of MS is legitimate.
Truthfully, I've been trying to understand why the delusional, pro-Linux groupthink has become so bad around here, recently.
Granted, there's always been some of it to a greater or lesser degree, but in the past, Slashdot used to be somewhat self-correcting; you'd get a blatant Linux or FSF fanboy making one of their usual insane statements, but then you'd get someone else exposing the first poster as nuts and putting them in their place.
Now, it never happens. The recent thread about Pulseaudio was a fantastic case in point; despite the number of people who've reported problems with it, the apologist developers and supporting trolls were out in force, and were also supported by people with mod points. The official stance was that Pulse was fine, there was nothing wrong with it, and if there was a problem, it was downstream's fault, so we should all just shut up, enjoy this miraculous innovation in Linux audio, and worship the tireless devs for bringing it to us.
And again, with the recent IBM/Ubuntu thread. Not only were my statements refuted, they were then down moderated Troll or Flamebait as well. The fanboys without mod points bombard you with ad hominem, and then the fanboys *with* points downmod your supposedly baseless post into oblivion, in order to ensure that it never sees the light of day.
The worst case of this was when I also suggested PostgreSQL as an alternative to MySQL. That got modded down to -1; the GPL fanatics are absolutely terrified of anyone using BSD licensed software; the BSD license is seen as a lethal threat, that must be stopped at all costs.
You really are deeply pathetic, Linux community. Normally when people report problems, the sane thing to do is to actually listen to said feedback, and try and improve. The Stallman-inspired (and make no mistake, I know exactly where the above toxicity originates from) strategy, however, is to do exactly the opposite. Continue to engage in abject denial, bury any dissent that appears, and if possible, silence the dissenter.
Now go ahead; mod me down, like good monkies.
Re:Windows Upgrades (Score:3, Insightful)
I think you will find that Linux upgrades easier because user configuration is held in flat text files which are far easier to parse by an installation script than the Windows Registry is.
Negative, sir. Have you ever written the code necessary to parse a flat config file? It's possible to do it well, but is a major duplication of effort, and I've seen *plenty* of apps that get it wrong (not to mention undue user confusion due to syntactical differences between different apps' configuration files).
On the other hand, reading/writing to the Windows registry involves a few simple API calls, and also (theoretically) makes certain security provisions easier to handle.
Don't forget that the various Linux desktop environments have evolved "registries" of their own. It's hardly a Microsoft-specific concept these days.
Re:Sounds good to me (Score:5, Insightful)
Yes, but libraries don't attempt to autoload a tray application without the plugin and player.
Re:Sounds good to me (Score:3, Insightful)
That's just a cop out. Quality software can be written for any platform provided the developer puts in the effort to make a quality product.
If you think the relative quality difference is because of anything that any DEVELOPER did, you're an idiot. The kind of developer who works at Apple, the kind of developer who works at Microsoft, these people don't release a piece of shit out of laziness, they release a piece of shit because of management and corporate priorities.
You can put together the best team of programmers in the world, but if "Making product X work well on playform Y" is literally the last thing on their list of priorities, guess what's going to happen? Another fun fact for you: the developers aren't the guys setting the priorities and saying when it's good enough or not good enough.
Blaming the developer just proves you have no idea how software development actually happens.
Re:Sounds good to me (Score:1, Insightful)
QuickTime is not just player. It also includes QuickTime Pro software, which is activated after purchase and registration.
Ah
So Apple forces in your system 15MB crap which you will never use uh?
Re:Windows Upgrades (Score:2, Insightful)
Lots of highly popular software just doesn't follow the windows development guidelines. WinAMP was/is popular, but from the perspective of compliance with windows development guidelines, it grades an F, for Fail.
Re:Windows Upgrades (Score:3, Insightful)
As I understand it, Win7 by design uses pretty much the same APIs as Vista. There are a few known incompatibilities, and the installer warns you about these before you upgrade. My experience of upgrading from Vista SP2 to Win7 RC was that I was advised to remove three apps before upgrading (can't remember what they were; it's possible that one may have been an Apple product). I did this, and the install was painfully slow but otherwise worked perfectly. I was then able to reinstall the latest version of the incompatible apps.
It bugs me that people are advising against upgrading who clearly haven't tried it. Of course it might go wrong. So backup your files before trying it. If it works, you've saved yourself a lot of effort.
Re:Windows Upgrades (Score:4, Insightful)
Really, what do you guys run that causes all these problems?
They haven't even tried it. They probably had difficulties updating Window 3.1 to 95 or something and have just extrapolated. My upgrade experience, like yours, was smooth.