itwbennett writes "If you want to hire a hacker, you need to take a more psychology-based approach to the entire interview process to determine whether he or she has changed their ways enough to be a trustworthy employee, says Mich Kabay in a recent Network World blog post. But this approach is also 'germane for highly skilled staffers, even those that don't come with arrest records or who have done something questionable in their pasts,' says David Strom. For example, in your next interview, ask a question that will suss out how much of a sense of entitlement a candidate has — or how much you or your company has. 'One time when I interviewed with Microsoft in Redmond I couldn't get over this sense of corporate entitlement — it was one of the biggest turn-offs that I had during my interviewing day there,' says Strom. 'I got the feeling that I wasn't going to fit in, no matter how smart I thought (or they thought) I was.'"
This discussion has been archived.
No new comments can be posted.
Because that is an interesting real world scenario to consider in this context. In fact, it would make for a good litmus test: would your hiring process stop the SF admin problem from occurring?
Because that is an interesting real world scenario to consider in this context. In fact, it would make for a good litmus test: would your hiring process stop the SF admin problem from occurring?
Particularly given that it's not at all clear that the admin was even the problem...
Childs is an interesting case. It seems he's a victim both of his own hubris and of sloppy management.
I'd like to think that a skilled interviewer could determine whether a person like that would make it in a given organization, but I just don't know. I do think that articles like this help in identifying factors that might help in deciding
Calling such people "misanthrope" is a bit harsh, I think.
Someone who is intelligent, competent, and has a difficult time finding acceptance (or even a modicum of comfort-with-others) in new environments could very easily get falsely labeled a misanthrope. If they're capable and know up from down, calling them self-important is a wee bit counter-productive - and I dare say, quite possibly why they'd be viewed as misanthropic.
A better characteristic descriptor would probably be "socially clueless". I know a lot of guys who come across harsh - myself included. They are usually some of the most open people I've known; they're also very amiable - but havent' a clue how to relate to others unlike themselves.
I have a friend in the high energy physics field. Four advanced degrees. I had the good fortune to have hired him as a contractor once when I was in a narrow bind, and I know he's bright. A bloody Klieg light amongst candles.
He's also often distressed by the stupidity of the people he works with. "Mate" I said, "Everybody you work with will be stupider than you. Get used to it."
I don't know if it helped much, but it's indicative. In a world of so-so thinkers, any bright sparks will have trouble fitting in. And it takes a fairly bright spark to be even a mediocre sysadmin, to be honest.
It's not their fault. They have been mis-educated, and are easily distracted. They really are clueless more than stupid. And they don't care that they don't know what is really going on.
Except for a few biologically retarded individuals, I've found that most people aren't stupid at all. Instead they're narrowly focussed in their intelligence.
So Jim Bob may not know Sartre from Sasquatch, but he intimately knows a Chevy big-block engine. Or how to skin and clean a deer with a broken Coke bottle. Or some damn thing. He's intelligent and capable within some narrow parameters, and he's happy when he stays within them.
It's the pervasive and rigid modern school system that divides people into "smart" and "stupid".
There's also the difference between "intelligent" and "informed." There are plenty of otherwise intelligent people that ignorant on topics that they're asked to weigh in on. Ignorance is a bigger problem than lack of intelligence, I'd say. This dovetails nicely into your observation.
To see the effects of institutionalized ignorance, look at all the wasted intellectual effort of the Dark Ages. You have bright minds of the day debating over how many angels could dance on the head of a pin, as opposed to advancing science and engineering. Imagine if all that effort had gone into developing the steam engine a few hundred years before James Watt got to it.
Someone who is intelligent, competent, and has a difficult time finding acceptance (or even a modicum of comfort-with-others) in new environments could very easily get falsely labeled a misanthrope.
True, but.... far more often, they're just misanthropes *. You only have to look at the vitriol aimed at the "sheeple" that we see posted every day here to see that. It's possible to hate humankind in general while still liking specific people in your personal "circle", in the same way it's possible to be a racist while still having friends of another race.
If they're capable and know up from down, calling them self-important is a wee bit counter-productive - and I dare say, quite possibly why they'd be viewed as misanthropic.
It may be that they're viewed as misanthropic because of the scorn and disdain they heap onto others whom they don't view as being as smart as themselves -- which is usually 99.999% of the population.
Yes, there are a lot of people who are simply "socially clueless" as you've described. But there are also a lot of misanthropes in the IT/IS fields. A rose by any other name, etc...
Actually that's because most 'team building exercises' suck.
You want to build the most amazing team that ever graced your workplace? Send the three or four of them to Vegas or Miami or someplace that has TROUBLE for them to get into under the pretenses of a training class or a seminar, and only get them one car. That will insure they get in a ton of trouble together. When they get back, they will be tighter than any team you've ever seen, and they will get serious amounts of amazing work done. And the three or four of them will work so well together for the rest of their tenure - they will kick the snot out of any teams built over an afternoon playing blindfolded Monopoly and drinking non-alcoholic beverages or whatever the current fad in weak ass team building exercises is this season.
Disclaimer - trouble in moderation. I'm talking going to strip clubs and drifting the rental car around corners, not burying a dead hooker in the desert. That said - a team that does the latter will be a LOT tighter than the team that does the former. Or so I've heard.
That's nice, unless you work in a place that's even mildly diverse, where you have people like Kevin the married Mormon who is into skydiving, Samir the introvert muslim who regularly takes prayer breaks and loves Sunny-D, and Tammi the feminist who enjoys electronic music and builds analog synths in her spare time.
No, I think your amazing team-building system would work best with extroverted dopey white guys aged 20 - 30 and see nothing wrong with TV. Mooks, basically. It assumes a non-diverse team, so by definition it's a weak way to build teams in general.
Team building does simply not work out. You cannot build a team. It happens or it does not. It's just that simple.
If you really insist in "building" a team out of people who don't know jack each other, simple way: Grab them all for an afternoon, put them in a pub, sit down with them and get them drunk. Really drunk. Then have them talk. You'll have a team the next morning some of the times. And if not, you at least got a good hangover out of it on corporate pay.
Like a lot of big geeks on Slashdot, I take pride in always receiving a job offer after an interview... accept once. Once I interviewed with the EDIF reader group at Cadence, and the manager had exactly one technical question for me: "Do you understand recursion?" "Well... yes I do." "Well, then, you have all the skills that matter. What really counts is that you know how to fit in, and you don't impress me there."
When you said that he asked, "Do you understand recursion?" I was hoping that you'd say, "Then after that, he asked, 'Do you understand recursion?' And I said yes. And then he asked . . . (wait for it) . . . 'Do you understand recursion?'"
I'm sorry. It just felt like a setup for a joke about recursion.
A coworker's boss once hired a "programmer" while my buddy was on vacation (avoiding the technical interview in the process.) The guy's first task was a simple program, but it always core dumped. He made no progress trying to get it fixed, so my friend held a code review. Each and every function looked like this:
void foo() { ... some irrelevant but incomprehensibly bad code; ... main(); }
Yes. He called main() at the bottom of each function. When asked about it, the "programmer" said 'that's so it'll return back to main.'
I think the biggest mistake we made was not firing that stupid manager on the spot. But I suppose if we fired managers based solely on incompetent decisions,... well... you know.
Don't be. Although one can often tell in the first five minutes of an interview if you want the geek or not (I'm being generous with the time here) that sort of perfunctory questioning and the glib dismissal you received most likely means they already someone else had in mind for the job, and are just following procedure at this point - often you're competing with an internal promotion or other reasons not related to technical competence.
Where you might need to improve is in believing your first impressions about a firm interviewing you. Hunches count, and your ability to drive the interview the way you want is a good indication of what level of person they're really after. I wasn't there, but my off-the-cuff opinion is that you were either bloody well jobbed, or the juxtaposition of the "Reader" group in the name and your choice of words (e.g. an "accept once" in your resume) was a deal killer. But they shouldn't have brought you in if that were the case.
Disclosure: I've interviewed about five hundred candidates for technical jobs. I've hired one hundred, of which two turned out to be poor choices. It's a serious, expensive business to bring the right people on board.
"Another problem is that some criminal hackers may exhibit traits associated with clinical personality disorders such as the narcissistic personality disorder." I'd say a large amount of IT staff exhibit personality disorders. Not just 'hackers'.
"Another problem is that some criminal hackers may exhibit traits associated with clinical personality disorders such as the narcissistic personality disorder." I'd say a large amount of IT staff exhibit personality disorders. Not just 'hackers'.
It is a job requirement. If we got on well with other people, how would we spend enough time alone with computers to become experts?
(Without getting pwned by her/him or his/her friends)
Because (let's face it), there's a chance you hired one on accident, without realizing it, and that they don't have an arrest record, for one reason or another.
I consider this blatant hacker discrimination morally reprehensible.
Is hacker culture so bad that anyone who identifies as a hacker needs to pass special scrutiny?
Isn't it a bit insulting to the hacker community to say they shouldn't be hired, unless they've "reformed", and imply they have arrest records, suggesting they are all criminals ?
"If I was a real cracker, I'd want to be topped with a real cheese, maybe a strong stilton."
And I thought "hacker" actually meant someone who (literally) hacked on things. With a hatchet or similar. Or maybe language just changes, and we need to all get over it.
The easy way to hire tech people and keep them happy is have them work on, wait for it... technology. That is, most of them, unless they signed up for help desk basically want to be given a problem, some hardware, some software and then them to fix the problem. Thats it, no "team building", no pointless meetings, in general most tech people are happy simply working. The less social interaction with most people is the best.
That's a hard way to make a decent product. If Billy's app doesn't talk to Sue's service because the two never speak to one another or sit down to do a review, it doesn't matter how brilliant either of them is. Their shit still doesn't work.
I don't agree. If this were true, then the foosball table in our kitchen wouldn't be busy all the time.
I think it's a subtler truth here. Many technical folks are more comfortable on working technical problems than people problems. Tech problems have at least one right answer that is unambiguous. People problems may not.
I think the way to keep tech people happy is to give them good problems to work on, serve as a diplomatic layer to insulate them from the annoying people surrounding them in the world, and facilitate making the rules clear on the floor to minimize conflict among the team. And provide free pop.
It is always safe to hire and employ a hacker. If they don't follow the hacker ethic [he.fi] they aren't a hacker. Maybe a cracker, hackivist, or script kiddie but not a hacker.
OK well perhaps it would have been better if you linked to a more appropriate wikipedia article. You had two choices, the first [wikipedia.org] lists only three definitions of the term Hacker:
Hacker (computer security), someone involved in computer security
Hacker (programmer subculture), a programmer subculture originating in the US academia in the 1960s, now primarily notable for its involvement in the free software/open source movement
Hacker (hobbyist), an enthusiastic home computer hobbyist
and the second [wikipedia.org] is even more interesting, including the rather apt statement: "Today, mainstream usage mostly refers to computer criminals, due to the mass media usage of the word since the 1980s", which of course follows a potted history of hacker culture in the 60's!
Words mean things. Everyone has to agree what those things are. If your definition of a word doesn't match the rest of the world's definition, you have a problem, not the rest of the world.
Sounds more like (Score:5, Insightful)
Sounds more like "how to hire a self important misanthrope" to me.
Re:Sounds more like (Score:4, Funny)
Parent
In fairness (Score:5, Insightful)
Parent
Re:In fairness (Score:5, Interesting)
Parent
Wish I had mod points (Score:4, Interesting)
Parent
Re:Wish I had mod points (Score:5, Informative)
Because that is an interesting real world scenario to consider in this context. In fact, it would make for a good litmus test: would your hiring process stop the SF admin problem from occurring?
Particularly given that it's not at all clear that the admin was even the problem...
Parent
Re:Wish I had mod points (Score:4, Informative)
I'd like to think that a skilled interviewer could determine whether a person like that would make it in a given organization, but I just don't know. I do think that articles like this help in identifying factors that might help in deciding
(And who the hell modded you Troll?)
Parent
Re:Sounds more like (Score:5, Insightful)
Calling such people "misanthrope" is a bit harsh, I think.
Someone who is intelligent, competent, and has a difficult time finding acceptance (or even a modicum of comfort-with-others) in new environments could very easily get falsely labeled a misanthrope. If they're capable and know up from down, calling them self-important is a wee bit counter-productive - and I dare say, quite possibly why they'd be viewed as misanthropic.
A better characteristic descriptor would probably be "socially clueless". I know a lot of guys who come across harsh - myself included. They are usually some of the most open people I've known; they're also very amiable - but havent' a clue how to relate to others unlike themselves.
Parent
Re:Sounds more like (Score:5, Insightful)
He's also often distressed by the stupidity of the people he works with. "Mate" I said, "Everybody you work with will be stupider than you. Get used to it."
I don't know if it helped much, but it's indicative. In a world of so-so thinkers, any bright sparks will have trouble fitting in. And it takes a fairly bright spark to be even a mediocre sysadmin, to be honest.
Parent
Re:Sounds more like (Score:5, Insightful)
About 90% of people in the world *are* stupid.
It's not their fault. They have been mis-educated,
and are easily distracted. They really are clueless
more than stupid. And they don't care that they
don't know what is really going on.
Parent
Re:Sounds more like (Score:5, Insightful)
About 90% of people in the world *are* stupid
You are under arrest for egregious misuse of statistics.
Parent
Re:Sounds more like (Score:5, Insightful)
Except for a few biologically retarded individuals, I've found that most people aren't stupid at all. Instead they're narrowly focussed in their intelligence.
So Jim Bob may not know Sartre from Sasquatch, but he intimately knows a Chevy big-block engine. Or how to skin and clean a deer with a broken Coke bottle. Or some damn thing. He's intelligent and capable within some narrow parameters, and he's happy when he stays within them.
It's the pervasive and rigid modern school system that divides people into "smart" and "stupid".
Parent
Re:Sounds more like (Score:5, Insightful)
There's also the difference between "intelligent" and "informed." There are plenty of otherwise intelligent people that ignorant on topics that they're asked to weigh in on. Ignorance is a bigger problem than lack of intelligence, I'd say. This dovetails nicely into your observation.
To see the effects of institutionalized ignorance, look at all the wasted intellectual effort of the Dark Ages. You have bright minds of the day debating over how many angels could dance on the head of a pin, as opposed to advancing science and engineering. Imagine if all that effort had gone into developing the steam engine a few hundred years before James Watt got to it.
Parent
Re:Sounds more like (Score:4, Informative)
Someone who is intelligent, competent, and has a difficult time finding acceptance (or even a modicum of comfort-with-others) in new environments could very easily get falsely labeled a misanthrope.
True, but.... far more often, they're just misanthropes *. You only have to look at the vitriol aimed at the "sheeple" that we see posted every day here to see that. It's possible to hate humankind in general while still liking specific people in your personal "circle", in the same way it's possible to be a racist while still having friends of another race.
If they're capable and know up from down, calling them self-important is a wee bit counter-productive - and I dare say, quite possibly why they'd be viewed as misanthropic.
It may be that they're viewed as misanthropic because of the scorn and disdain they heap onto others whom they don't view as being as smart as themselves -- which is usually 99.999% of the population.
Yes, there are a lot of people who are simply "socially clueless" as you've described. But there are also a lot of misanthropes in the IT/IS fields. A rose by any other name, etc...
*disclaimer: recovering misanthrope
Parent
Re:Sounds more like (Score:5, Insightful)
Actually that's because most 'team building exercises' suck.
You want to build the most amazing team that ever graced your workplace? Send the three or four of them to Vegas or Miami or someplace that has TROUBLE for them to get into under the pretenses of a training class or a seminar, and only get them one car. That will insure they get in a ton of trouble together. When they get back, they will be tighter than any team you've ever seen, and they will get serious amounts of amazing work done. And the three or four of them will work so well together for the rest of their tenure - they will kick the snot out of any teams built over an afternoon playing blindfolded Monopoly and drinking non-alcoholic beverages or whatever the current fad in weak ass team building exercises is this season.
Disclaimer - trouble in moderation. I'm talking going to strip clubs and drifting the rental car around corners, not burying a dead hooker in the desert.
That said - a team that does the latter will be a LOT tighter than the team that does the former. Or so I've heard.
Parent
Re:Sounds more like (Score:5, Interesting)
No, I think your amazing team-building system would work best with extroverted dopey white guys aged 20 - 30 and see nothing wrong with TV. Mooks, basically. It assumes a non-diverse team, so by definition it's a weak way to build teams in general.
Parent
Re:Sounds more like (Score:5, Informative)
Team building does simply not work out. You cannot build a team. It happens or it does not. It's just that simple.
If you really insist in "building" a team out of people who don't know jack each other, simple way: Grab them all for an afternoon, put them in a pub, sit down with them and get them drunk. Really drunk. Then have them talk. You'll have a team the next morning some of the times. And if not, you at least got a good hangover out of it on corporate pay.
Parent
Had any scary interviews? (Score:5, Interesting)
Like a lot of big geeks on Slashdot, I take pride in always receiving a job offer after an interview... accept once. Once I interviewed with the EDIF reader group at Cadence, and the manager had exactly one technical question for me: "Do you understand recursion?" "Well... yes I do." "Well, then, you have all the skills that matter. What really counts is that you know how to fit in, and you don't impress me there."
I'm still shaken up over that interview.
Re:Had any scary interviews? (Score:5, Funny)
Parent
Re:Had any scary interviews? (Score:4, Funny)
You inthenthitive clod!
Parent
I was hoping there was a joke in there (Score:5, Funny)
When you said that he asked, "Do you understand recursion?" I was hoping that you'd say, "Then after that, he asked, 'Do you understand recursion?' And I said yes. And then he asked . . . (wait for it) . . . 'Do you understand recursion?'"
I'm sorry. It just felt like a setup for a joke about recursion.
Parent
The joke was too easy (Score:5, Insightful)
The interviewee must answer: "Yes, but to fully understand it, you must first understand recursion"
Parent
Re:I was hoping there was a joke in there (Score:5, Funny)
Parent
Re:I was hoping there was a joke in there (Score:5, Funny)
A joke from google [google.ca]
Parent
Re:Had any scary interviews? (Score:5, Insightful)
In many (most?) business structures, expertise only gets us so far - after that, it's all about how we deal with people.
If you want to have a part in the problem-solving drama called "Your Employing Company," you have to get along well enough to be allowed at the table.
There's not much justice or fairness in this - just some hard reality along with enough exceptions to make the rule fuzzy.
Parent
I have an ironic recursion story (Score:5, Funny)
A coworker's boss once hired a "programmer" while my buddy was on vacation (avoiding the technical interview in the process.) The guy's first task was a simple program, but it always core dumped. He made no progress trying to get it fixed, so my friend held a code review. Each and every function looked like this:
Yes. He called main() at the bottom of each function. When asked about it, the "programmer" said 'that's so it'll return back to main.'
I think the biggest mistake we made was not firing that stupid manager on the spot. But I suppose if we fired managers based solely on incompetent decisions, ... well... you know.
Parent
Re:Had any scary interviews? (Score:5, Interesting)
I'm still shaken up over that interview.
Don't be. Although one can often tell in the first five minutes of an interview if you want the geek or not (I'm being generous with the time here) that sort of perfunctory questioning and the glib dismissal you received most likely means they already someone else had in mind for the job, and are just following procedure at this point - often you're competing with an internal promotion or other reasons not related to technical competence.
Where you might need to improve is in believing your first impressions about a firm interviewing you. Hunches count, and your ability to drive the interview the way you want is a good indication of what level of person they're really after. I wasn't there, but my off-the-cuff opinion is that you were either bloody well jobbed, or the juxtaposition of the "Reader" group in the name and your choice of words (e.g. an "accept once" in your resume) was a deal killer. But they shouldn't have brought you in if that were the case.
Disclosure: I've interviewed about five hundred candidates for technical jobs. I've hired one hundred, of which two turned out to be poor choices. It's a serious, expensive business to bring the right people on board.
Parent
On Personality (Score:5, Funny)
Re:On Personality (Score:5, Informative)
"Another problem is that some criminal hackers may exhibit traits associated with clinical personality disorders such as the narcissistic personality disorder." I'd say a large amount of IT staff exhibit personality disorders. Not just 'hackers'.
It is a job requirement. If we got on well with other people, how would we spend enough time alone with computers to become experts?
Parent
Think this one needs a Part 2 (Score:5, Interesting)
How to Fire a Hacker
(Without getting pwned by her/him or his/her friends)
Because (let's face it), there's a chance you hired one on accident, without realizing it, and that they don't have an arrest record, for one reason or another.
Re:Think this one needs a Part 2 (Score:4, Insightful)
The folks in the first category could hurt you too. They're white/gray hat because they want to be, not because they have to be.
Parent
Interviews for the Entitiled... (Score:4, Funny)
I've found the best thing is to doze off during the interview, and when woken...ask for a raise.
Remember, no sleep and no coffee are your friends here...
-Chris
This article seems to be anti-hacker (Score:4, Informative)
I consider this blatant hacker discrimination morally reprehensible.
Is hacker culture so bad that anyone who identifies as a hacker needs to pass special scrutiny?
Isn't it a bit insulting to the hacker community to say they shouldn't be hired, unless they've "reformed", and imply they have arrest records, suggesting they are all criminals ?
Perhaps you mean cracker
Re:This article seems to be anti-hacker (Score:5, Insightful)
Perhaps you mean cracker
"If I was a real cracker, I'd want to be topped with a real cheese, maybe a strong stilton."
And I thought "hacker" actually meant someone who (literally) hacked on things. With a hatchet or similar. Or maybe language just changes, and we need to all get over it.
Parent
Re:This article seems to be anti-hacker (Score:5, Funny)
And I thought "hacker" actually meant someone who (literally) hacked on things. With a hatchet or similar.
So more like Hans Reiser?
Parent
Re:This article seems to be anti-hacker (Score:4, Funny)
So hacker means blowhard?
Parent
Re:This article seems to be anti-hacker (Score:5, Funny)
Parent
Re:This article seems to be anti-hacker (Score:4, Funny)
Perhaps you mean cracker
Cracker is a derogatory slang term for people originating in rural areas of the southern part of the US.
If you want to hire a cracker, just look for the baseball cap and check for a pickup truck with a gun rack-- or a John Deere tractor-- parked outside.
Parent
How to... (Score:5, Interesting)
Re:How to... (Score:5, Insightful)
That's a hard way to make a decent product. If Billy's app doesn't talk to Sue's service because the two never speak to one another or sit down to do a review, it doesn't matter how brilliant either of them is. Their shit still doesn't work.
Parent
Re:How to... (Score:5, Insightful)
I don't agree. If this were true, then the foosball table in our kitchen wouldn't be busy all the time.
I think it's a subtler truth here. Many technical folks are more comfortable on working technical problems than people problems. Tech problems have at least one right answer that is unambiguous. People problems may not.
I think the way to keep tech people happy is to give them good problems to work on, serve as a diplomatic layer to insulate them from the annoying people surrounding them in the world, and facilitate making the rules clear on the floor to minimize conflict among the team. And provide free pop.
Parent
The catch 22 (Score:4, Funny)
---
When they outlaw computers only outlaws will be free.
How to Hire a Hacker (Score:4, Insightful)
When it is safe to have a hacker on your IT staff
It is always safe to hire and employ a hacker. If they don't follow the hacker ethic [he.fi] they aren't a hacker. Maybe a cracker, hackivist, or script kiddie but not a hacker.
Falcon
Re:5 min (Score:5, Funny)
Parent
Re: (Score:3, Insightful)
and nobody here yet?
You kidding? We've all gone off to update our resumes.
Re:If you can't beat 'em... (Score:5, Funny)
... arrange to have them beaten.
Parent
Re:What if you are hiring to be a hacker? (Score:4, Insightful)
And i wouldn't put it on my resume either : it's like a written statement of you admitting a crime.
Parent
Re:If you can't beat 'em... (Score:4, Informative)
and the second [wikipedia.org] is even more interesting, including the rather apt statement: "Today, mainstream usage mostly refers to computer criminals, due to the mass media usage of the word since the 1980s", which of course follows a potted history of hacker culture in the 60's!
Parent
Re: (Score:3, Insightful)
Words mean things. Everyone has to agree what those things are. If your definition of a word doesn't match the rest of the world's definition, you have a problem, not the rest of the world.
Re:Surely Slashdot can get cracker vs hacker right (Score:4, Funny)
Welp, you can sit there and debate the meaning of the word inflammable, I'll be waiting in the parking lot for the fire department.
Parent